Card Shufflers

  • #1
    Hey I'm sick and tired of shuffling my decks, and I have some suspicious friends that play with me like almost everyday. I want to get an automatic card shuffler that will shuffler MTG sized cards EVEN in plastics. Anybody have any suggestions on machines?


    By suspicious I mean I play casual and my friends have like 75+ card decks with say two of a powerful card and they seem to get both 2/3 games. My one friend plays sol ring EVER game on turn one or two, and that's ******** the odds should only be like 1 in 3~4 games if that. I'm sick of that **** and I'm sick of shuffling badly that I seem to mana clump the **** out of myself.
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  • #2
    By any chance do your friends play with those oversized solid plastic rectangles called card protectors?

    You can't shuffle with those. They aren't meant to sleeve cards; they preserve collectibles.

    I'm quite certain there is no such thing as a shuffling machine.
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  • #3
    While there are numerous card shufflers in the market, I'm not sure if they can shuffle cards with sleeves.

    If you're tired of seeing your opponent come up with a sol ring, why don't you shuffle his deck? That's how it is supposed to be done anyway.

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  • #4
    Quote from mondu_the_fat
    While there are numerous card shufflers in the market, I'm not sure if they can shuffle cards with sleeves.

    If you're tired of seeing your opponent come up with a sol ring, why don't you shuffle his deck? That's how it is supposed to be done anyway.


    actually I think he is pretty much saying he has been shuffling his opponents decks. He just isn't very good about it.

    Additionally, I agree there are plenty of card shufflers. However they are all usually designed and used for the purpose of shuffling poker cards. And thus not intended for shuffling decks using magic card sized cards, or for that matter decks that are inside of sleeves.

    However, I do know of one guy, who claims that he was able to jerry rig a shuffling machine so that it would not only shuffle magic cards that were in sleeves, but a whopping 100 cards at a time (in other words his EDH deck). So it is possible. However it takes a great deal of knowledge about the inner workings of a machine such as these.
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  • #5
    Quote from DalkonCledwin
    However, I do know of one guy, who claims that he was able to jerry rig a shuffling machine so that it would not only shuffle magic cards that were in sleeves, but a whopping 100 cards at a time (in other words his EDH deck). So it is possible. However it takes a great deal of knowledge about the inner workings of a machine such as these.


    I doubt this is that hard automatic card shufflers are fairly simple little machines all I think you would need to do is slightly widen the little bays that hold the cards to the width of a card sleeve and this should be able to be done with a little paitence and a sharp knife with most cheap plastic card shufflers. I will also mention that I suspect you friend could shuffle a larger deck than just 100 as most shufflers are made to hold 6 decks (the general number used in blackjack) so even with sleeves that should be close to 200 mtg cards...go go battle of wits Grin
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  • #6
    Quote from bleedingteddy
    I doubt this is that hard automatic card shufflers are fairly simple little machines all I think you would need to do is slightly widen the little bays that hold the cards to the width of a card sleeve and this should be able to be done with a little paitence and a sharp knife with most cheap plastic card shufflers. I will also mention that I suspect you friend could shuffle a larger deck than just 100 as most shufflers are made to hold 6 decks (the general number used in blackjack) so even with sleeves that should be close to 200 mtg cards...go go battle of wits Grin


    OH YEAH, that is right, he mentioned that he was doing this to shuffle a battle of wits deck... NOT an EDH deck... :p
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  • #7
    You'll never get an automatic shuffler that can handle sleeves, let alone toploaders. The only thing that I could seriously suggest that would be in your price range would be a Shuffletech poker shuffler, but those cost about $500 and work best when mounted flush into a table. There just isn't anything in the price range between "mangles cards even outside sleeves" and "designed and priced for people who are serious about running a home poker game the right way."

    For sleeved cards, you'll just have to keep shuffling by hand. There is no mechanical solution at the moment.

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  • #8
    Unfortunately, as Annorax stated, it doesn't exist, and it most likely wont exist. Good ol' hand shuffling is just as good as anything. Many times, the number of shuffles necessary is severely underestimated. Even at PTQs I've seen people do 1 pile shuffle and then present for a cut. It's just not enough. If this is a possiblilty, I recommend regular shuffles imbetween at least 3 full pile shuffles.

    Best of Luck Grin
  • #9
    Quote from TwOnEight_Magic
    Unfortunately, as Annorax stated, it doesn't exist, and it most likely wont exist. Good ol' hand shuffling is just as good as anything. Many times, the number of shuffles necessary is severely underestimated. Even at PTQs I've seen people do 1 pile shuffle and then present for a cut. It's just not enough. If this is a possiblilty, I recommend regular shuffles imbetween at least 3 full pile shuffles.

    Best of Luck Grin



    With all due respect, no wai in hell is that true.

    If I ever have an opponent who does 3 pile shuffles I'm definitely calling the judge on them.
    1 pile shuffle with a few riffles is perfectly fine and definitely sufficiently randomizes. Scientifically, 7 riffles is complete randomness.
  • #10
    pardon my stupidity, but what is riffle shuffling? That isn't bridge shuffling is it? Cause I hate Bridge Shuffling as that tends to bend the cards, I usually just take the cards and shuffle them together in a sort of overhand type of shuffle (two different types). I find that those combined with a single Pile Shuffle, tends to completely randomize. Of course Pile Shuffling is not always possible with a 100 card deck in EDH events, due to the amount of time it takes. However it is still possible with 60 card decks.
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  • #11
    Quote from DalkonCledwin
    pardon my stupidity, but what is riffle shuffling? That isn't bridge shuffling is it? Cause I hate Bridge Shuffling as that tends to bend the cards, I usually just take the cards and shuffle them together in a sort of overhand type of shuffle (two different types). I find that those combined with a single Pile Shuffle, tends to completely randomize. Of course Pile Shuffling is not always possible with a 100 card deck in EDH events, due to the amount of time it takes. However it is still possible with 60 card decks.


    Sounds like you're describing a riffle shuffle.

    As far as "Seven riffles is complete randomization," I don't really buy that. I definitely need to combine riffle with pile (I usually pile shuffle once per game, then riffle for all the other ones, unless I mulligan a hand with like 3 of the same card in it).

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  • #12
    I've heard that the DCI has banned shuffling machines at big events for being "not sufficiently random." but I'm sure you could get one to work for your tabletop games. I dont think sleeves would be a big deal unless they were sticky.
  • #13
    Bumping an ancient thread for a similar question.

    I want a shuffling machine simply because I'm not the best shuffler, and when playtesting we literally spend more time randomizing decks than actually playing.

    Someone commented that there is nothing between "mangles cards even outside sleeves" ($15-$50) and "designed and priced for people who are serious about running a home poker game the right way." ($500).

    If we are willing to spend $500 though, do any of these professional shuffling machines handle sleeves with easy mods, or hopefully no mods at all?
    Last edited by Chuu: 12/6/2009 12:32:34 AM
  • #14
    Long time reader, first time poster Smile

    I actually run a solid poker home game two nights a week and own a Shuffletech shuffler. It's fairly good, but I wouldn't recommend it because it is fairly rigorous in regards to shuffling cards and isn't a fan of paper cards (it'll shuffle Bicycles okay, but grudgingly).

    I've also read numerous articles in regards to how to randomize, randomization in general, and riffle shuffles (which I believe WotC requires for official randomization) on here...

    The minimum amount of shuffling that should be done for adequate randomization is a Casino Dealer's shuffle...which consists of a riffle, strip, riffle, strip, riffle combination. It's quick, efficient, and casinos like it because they get more hands in per hour and thus more rake/profit.

    A fully "randomized" shuffle is seven riffles (usually combined with at least three strips).

    Riffles are commonly referred to as faro shuffling (I believe, could be wrong on that). You don't HAVE to bridge these to finish the shuffle - you can just lightly put your index finger on the back of the cards and use a slight downward pressure to interlock the cards - than simply push them together (or mash them as people on here are fond of saying). Do that a couple of times and you have a solid random shuffle. It puts minimum wear on the cards if done correctly (they bow slightly after a billion riffles, but just shuffle them face up for awhile and that will reverse itself).

    Stripping is taking a small section of cards (like ten or fifteen) out of the middle of the deck after a riffle in one group and moving those to the top of the deck (or bottom if easier). This moves cards around after they've been riffled and helps break the cards up better.

    A recent response I read was focused on clumping and how sections of cards end up together after numerous games of play and scooping sections of land, creatures, and graveyards together and that if you pile shuffle or anything before you shuffle that you're cheating by trying to de-randomize the process....not so...casinos "wash" their cards between shuffles...which is basically just taking the cards and spreading them out all over the table and than moving them around (and over and under each other by default - breaking up pairs and clumps). Than all of them are brought back together into one cohesive deck. This is a short and quick version of pile shuffling (loosely...it is intended to break up pairs, boats, and suits slightly before the main shuffling is done).

    Strips move stuff around and than riffles break up everything and randomize the deck....yes...clumping occurs naturally in randomization by the law of averages and there is nothing you can do about it.

    I like to pile shuffle into about seven piles myself before the shuffle. I than pick up two of the piles and overhand shuffle them a couple of times, grab a third pile, overhand that into the first two, and so on until I'm back to a single deck....you riffle that a couple of times and there is NO way you can say I didn't randomize properly pre-game.

    Pile shuffling takes me around thirty seconds and everything else after that (over-handing the piles together and than riffling) about thirty seconds also. So I can do a full shuffle in less than a minute....giving me two minutes of extra time to collect my thoughts (at least according to WotC's tournament regulations) or even do the same technique to my opponent's deck if I'm really bored - usually I'm content with just a couple of strips and riffles before presenting their deck back to them.

    If casinos (whose life blood is making millions off of their integrity that decks are as efficiently random as time permits before being dealt out by a competent and professional dealer) have decided that a MINIMUM of three riffles and two strips are needed for reasonable randomization that's good enough for me.

    Do seven with some strips if time permits for true randomization.
    I pile shuffle beforehand...just because I like pile shuffling and it makes me happy - I don't HAVE to do pile shuffles to feel like the deck was fully randomized or de-clumped...I just like doing them.

    That's all I've got on Theory of Shuffling...

    Cheers! ::glee:
    Last edited by Loomis2459: 12/6/2009 1:37:59 AM
  • #15
    I would like to point out that Casinos don't have 24 of the same card. Besides that, the method they use that you described seems reasonable.

    And following the thread topic, I'd just pile shuffle if you aren't good at shuffling. It's simpler, and gets the job done. If you're playing casual, no one should mind horribly.
  • #16
    I completely agree that if you are bad at shuffling in general that you should probably just pile shuffle (into around six or seven piles) and than just overhand shuffle the piles together in increasingly larger groups until the whole deck is back in hand. It avoids awkwardness if you can't riffle shuffle well...or just riffle poorly in general...or are worried about your card conditions.
  • #17
    Quote from Loomis2459

    I actually run a solid poker home game two nights a week and own a Shuffletech shuffler. It's fairly good, but I wouldn't recommend it because it is fairly rigorous in regards to shuffling cards and isn't a fan of paper cards (it'll shuffle Bicycles okay, but grudgingly).


    I'm wondering, have you ever tried using your shuffletech with sleeves? Is the tray deep enough to hold them?

    I'd imagine that mtg cards in sleeves is a much closer appromixation to plastic cards than papers cards in terms of traction, but I don't know if the thickness would screw up the riffling method.
  • #18
    Quote from Loomis2459
    I completely agree that if you are bad at shuffling in general that you should probably just pile shuffle (into around six or seven piles) and than just overhand shuffle the piles together in increasingly larger groups until the whole deck is back in hand. It avoids awkwardness if you can't riffle shuffle well...or just riffle poorly in general...or are worried about your card conditions.


    Except, as has been said 10,000 times in various threads, that isn't shuffling at all according to the Magic Tournament Rules. If you don't like to (or find you're clumsy like me when you) "riffle" practice doing this:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zjLp5wh5y90

    Easy to do and works great.
  • #19
    Wait, what if your deck has expensive cards in it like fetch lands, tarmogoyfs, force of wills, etc...and you don't want your opponent riffling them and bending them, what happens? If its at an official tournament?
  • #20
    Quote from jdinatale
    Wait, what if your deck has expensive cards in it like fetch lands, tarmogoyfs, force of wills, etc...and you don't want your opponent riffling them and bending them, what happens? If its at an official tournament?


    You can ask them nicely not to bend your cards. If you think your opponent is _purposefully_ damaging your cards, call a judge.

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  • #21
    Quote from mondu_the_fat
    You can ask them nicely not to bend your cards. If you think your opponent is _purposefully_ damaging your cards, call a judge.


    yes, but any form of ruffling damages your cards to a miniscule degree, no matter how professionally it's done, it still adds a degree of wear that will eventually add up. Why isn't pile shuffling acceptable?
  • #22
    Quote from jdinatale
    yes, but any form of ruffling damages your cards to a miniscule degree, no matter how professionally it's done, it still adds a degree of wear that will eventually add up. Why isn't pile shuffling acceptable?


    Pile shuffling does not randomize a deck. An opponent only pile shuffling is the surest way for me to pick up his deck and riffle shuffling it multiple times (most of the time I just cut). Pile shuffling is actually acceptable, as long as you shuffle properly afterwards, which defeats the purpose of pile shuffling (both for randomization and avoiding wear and tear).

    Yes, shuffling does induce wear and tear, no matter how small. The best you can hope for is to ask your opponent not to go out of his way to damage your cards, but it _will_ be shuffled.

    In short: If you don't want your cards shuffled, perhaps it's not a good idea to play competitively.
    Last edited by mondu_the_fat: 12/6/2009 11:46:41 PM

    "Sometimes, the situation is outracing a threat, sometimes it's ignoring it, and sometimes it involves sideboarding in 4x Hope//Pray." --Doug Linn

  • #23
    I allowed this thread to be necro'd because the poster doing so had a specific question about shuffling machines - DO NOT TURN THIS INTO ANOTHER SHUFFLING DEBATE. Please stay on-topic.
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  • #24
    For anyone interested, I e-mail shuffletech and asked them directly about shuffling cards in sleeves.

    First response was, essentially, they had no clue what I was talking about. After directing them to some links + videos, the seconds response was:


    Dear XXXXXX,

    I don't believe these would shuffle well in our current machine, although the new machine we have under development will handle them without any trouble. It will be announced within the next few months.

    Best regards,
    Rick
  • #25
    While shuffling a deck with an "automatic shuffler" sounds cool it's not worth it because it'll just destroy cards.

    Just learn to pass the time of shuffling by talking about whatever between, you'll lose track of the time you spend shuffling.
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