At our local store, we've been running small tournaments (10-20 player drafts, type 2) smoothly and everyone has a good time. There are a handful of players with ratings 1800+.
Recently, 2-3 players with pro-points have shown up to play sanctioned events and instead of using their real DCI numbers, they've told our tournament organizer that they "don't have a DCI number" and have gotten new numbers. They regularly finish top 4, walk out with prizes, hustle the n00bs in trades, and in the meantime, everyone who loses to them takes 15 point ratings hits every time they lose to their 1600-1660 ratings. I know for a fact their "real" ratings are 1850+ and that they are just using "fake" DCI numbers to prevent their ratings from taking a hit in case they lose. I think this seems unethical, but is it against DCI policy? Is there something in the DCI policy that states this is an offense they can be punished for? I am assuming that in the least, our TO has the power to exclude them from events, but he doesn't like to cause conflict. Basically, I don't mind if they play but I want them to use their real numbers.
6.2. Cheating — Fraud
Definition
A person intentionally and knowingly violates or misrepresents rules, procedures, personal information, or any other relevant tournament information. Note that Fraud, like most cheating, is determined by an investigation and will often appear on the surface as a Game Play Error or Tournament Error.
Additionally, it is Fraud if a player (or teammate) notices an offense in their match and does not immediately call attention to it.
Examples A. A player enters a tournament under an assumed name and/or using a different DCI number in an attempt to manipulate ratings.
B. A player alters the results of a match after the match is over.
C. A player lies to a tournament official to gain or keep an advantage.
D. A player lies to his opponent about his life total.
E. A player observes his opponent or teammate make an illegal play but does not call a judge because it is to his advantage.
F. A spectator gives false or misleading information to a tournament official that helps another player to cheat.
Philosophy
There will be zero tolerance for this type of activity. One does not need to be a player in a game to commit Fraud. In particular, teammates observing a game are expected to point out problems and call a judge to help if required.
A player must be aware that he or she has committed an error in representation in order for the infraction to be Fraud. For example, a player targeting a black creature with Terror has not committed Fraud if he or she forgot that Terror can not target black creatures, even though the action (playing Terror) was intentional and illegal. It is Fraud if a judge believes he or she was aware and hoping that his or her opponent would miss it.
Penalty
Yeh, this is a major no-no. I would tell your store first and see if they'll do anything about it, and if not then contact the DCI directly. Hope it works out for you.
A valid and unique DCI number registered in the participant’s name. Note: New players must register for DCI membership at their first tournaments. Players may have only one DCI number. Tournament organizers must report any player using more than one DCI membership number. Should players find they have been assigned multiple DCI numbers, they should contact the Wizards of the Coast Customer Service at http://wizards.custhelp.com/
At our local store, we've been running small tournaments (10-20 player drafts, type 2) smoothly and everyone has a good time. There are a handful of players with ratings 1800+.
Can you tell us where that local store is?
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
These are the decks that I have constructed, and are ready to play:
01. Ankh Sligh to be exact.
Yes, they are hurting someone. As the OP said, this practice is causing players to lose more rating points than they should be losing for each match loss. At above 1800 points, which some of the people in question seem to be, rating is good for byes or even invites to major events. This cheating is effectively costing the local players cash.
What is the point of ratting these guys out? Are they hurting anybody with their actions?
they're taking prizes that others would've won, they're ripping noobs off in trades and ****ing up everyone else's scores... :facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm:
Asking out a girl is like trying to cast a first turn Necropotence. Sometimes the other player will have the Force of Will to say no. You shouldn't let that stop you from trying it.
What is the point of ratting these guys out? Are they hurting anybody with their actions?
The point of "ratting these guys out" is because they have clearly committed a severe offense.
You might want to read the OP. From the looks of things, these guys are intentionally ripping off noobs in trades, make everyone's ratings suffer when they lose to them, and as a result the prizes are easy pickings for them. If that isn't hurting anybody with their actions, I'd be afraid to wonder what it take to do such a thing.
they're taking prizes that others would've won, they're ripping noobs off in trades and ****ing up everyone else's scores... :facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm:
Well to be fair, they are taking prizes that they should have won and they probably would have still ripped off noobs.
The rating thing is the only thing that they are really doing with the alternate DCI number.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Top 4 Legacy Open SCG: Dallas/FortWorth 2012
Top 64 Legacy Open SCG: Dallas/FortWorth 2013
SCG Open Trial (2013): 1st
Ripping off n00bs isn't really the issue, it happens all the time, par for the course, even though we try to make sure trades we see are pretty fair. The real thing is that they waltz in with this "We're too good for this store" air about them, use fake DCI's, beat people, and leave. Or when they do lose a match, they stomp around angrily as if there's no way they should ever lose to such scrubs. It's just ruining the good environment we had. And it's being done unethically.
The problem is I know the Tournament Organizer is a really nice guy, and he has let people make new DCI cards in the past if the people forgot their number and he was unable to look it up. I think he was being trusting of these guys even though he was warned that they can be a bit shady. The players with pro points did give their real name, but it surprises me that he wasn't able to look up their official DCI numbers and use those? I mean, there's a way to do that right, even at a local hobby shop?
Before anyone rats anyone out, or takes any extreme action, I want to know if there's a simple peaceful solution, since we have a pretty friendly community, and all magic players see each other around town - there's no reason to stir up more bad blood (even though these guys seem like they don't care who they piss off).
they're taking prizes that others would've won, they're ripping noobs off in trades and ****ing up everyone else's scores... :facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm:
Cuase you know its not like they would have won and ripped off the newbs and still finished the same way if not better if they were using their original dci numbers.....Nothing will change besides the amount of points their opponents lose.
And really what do limited rating points matter to any one not on the pro tour...they only really matter when your just under the marker to get invites any under that you dont matter any over you dont care....Personally I think the OP is fretting over something that doesnt matter.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I will play what wins, not what is convenient. Personal preference is nothing, The win is all that matters. I will netdeck at every opportunity, but I will not let that stifle my creativity. Style points do not appear on tournament reports. A good deck with an incompetent pilot is nothing more than a dressed up match win. I will crush my opponent mercilessly, and expect no less from him. Victory is its own reward, The prize is just a bonus.
Legacy is dying
Cuase you know its not like they would have won and ripped off the newbs and still finished the same way if not better if they were using their original dci numbers.....Nothing will change besides the amount of points their opponents lose.
And really what do limited rating points matter to any one not on the pro tour...they only really matter when your just under the marker to get invites any under that you dont matter any over you dont care....Personally I think the OP is fretting over something that doesnt matter.
I think any serious violation of the rules matters.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Quote from Matt McCullough »
I'm bad at magic, you're bad at magic, and Level 4 Pro Ari Lax is terrible at magic.
they're taking prizes that others would've won, they're ripping noobs off in trades and ****ing up everyone else's scores... :facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm:
Ripping people off in trades, while unethical, is not something WotC has anything to do with nor can they control it.
Cuase you know its not like they would have won and ripped off the newbs and still finished the same way if not better if they were using their original dci numbers.....Nothing will change besides the amount of points their opponents lose.
And really what do limited rating points matter to any one not on the pro tour...they only really matter when your just under the marker to get invites any under that you dont matter any over you dont care....Personally I think the OP is fretting over something that doesnt matter.
Just because it doesn't matter to you doesn't mean it doesn't matter. I'm personally not that good, so rating doesn't matter to me, but I've had friends have to skip events to preserve their rating. People who are cheating by having multiple DCI numbers are clearly gaining an advantage over people who play by the rules. There ARE rewards for rating and as such commiting fraud to gain those rewards should be punished.
Not that I'm defending their actions...but they really are not hurting WOTC and the DCI. At all.
If these players are indeed doing this thing, they are hurting the local scene by potentially causing bad blood amongst the players. The newer players who are getting jipped of not just cards in their collection but also of rating points will potentially quite playing competitively, which will cost the venue money, as well as wizards money. If such behavior amongst the Pro-Players spread to other locales, this could become a devastating Trend that could cost Wizards a great deal of money, and potentially put an end to Wizards of the Coast as we know it. As such, WotC should put all of their effort into stopping this trend from occurring wherever and whenever they can.
My only question is how Wizards doesn't catch when a second DCI number is registered under the same name as someone who already has a DCI number. I would think an alert or something would be signaled when that happens. Especially in the case of their pro-players.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"As the size of an explosion increases, the number of social situations it is incapable of solving approaches zero." -- Varsuvius, Order of the Stick
this isn't at all catastrophic but they are committing fraud and many people are implying that that is perfectly acceptable because it is just an fnm.
What if they traded cards at a protour?
That's perfectly fine. In fact, at sealed pro tours you do DECK SWAPS after you write up the DECK LISTS, which are done as you OPEN THE PACKS. But if it's constructed, you can't take cards out of your deck mid-tourney either. But you can trade cards if you want.
this isn't at all catastrophic but they are committing fraud and many people are implying that that is perfectly acceptable because it is just an fnm.
What if they traded cards at a protour?
trading cards (I am assuming you aren't talking about their DCI number cards) is perfectly acceptable at all levels of play. It is up to the individuals involved in the trades to determine that they aren't being ripped off. Unfortunately that isn't always possible.
HOWEVER, should one of these pro-players use their fake DCI numbers at the Pro-Tour by accident, I am sure they would be called on it, and be treated to some... not so pleasant wake up calls. Such as Disqualification from the Event or worse.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"As the size of an explosion increases, the number of social situations it is incapable of solving approaches zero." -- Varsuvius, Order of the Stick
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
At our local store, we've been running small tournaments (10-20 player drafts, type 2) smoothly and everyone has a good time. There are a handful of players with ratings 1800+.
Recently, 2-3 players with pro-points have shown up to play sanctioned events and instead of using their real DCI numbers, they've told our tournament organizer that they "don't have a DCI number" and have gotten new numbers. They regularly finish top 4, walk out with prizes, hustle the n00bs in trades, and in the meantime, everyone who loses to them takes 15 point ratings hits every time they lose to their 1600-1660 ratings. I know for a fact their "real" ratings are 1850+ and that they are just using "fake" DCI numbers to prevent their ratings from taking a hit in case they lose. I think this seems unethical, but is it against DCI policy? Is there something in the DCI policy that states this is an offense they can be punished for? I am assuming that in the least, our TO has the power to exclude them from events, but he doesn't like to cause conflict. Basically, I don't mind if they play but I want them to use their real numbers.
Thanks in advance.
Definition
A person intentionally and knowingly violates or misrepresents rules, procedures, personal information, or any other relevant tournament information. Note that Fraud, like most cheating, is determined by an investigation and will often appear on the surface as a Game Play Error or Tournament Error.
Additionally, it is Fraud if a player (or teammate) notices an offense in their match and does not immediately call attention to it.
Examples
A. A player enters a tournament under an assumed name and/or using a different DCI number in an attempt to manipulate ratings.
B. A player alters the results of a match after the match is over.
C. A player lies to a tournament official to gain or keep an advantage.
D. A player lies to his opponent about his life total.
E. A player observes his opponent or teammate make an illegal play but does not call a judge because it is to his advantage.
F. A spectator gives false or misleading information to a tournament official that helps another player to cheat.
Philosophy
There will be zero tolerance for this type of activity. One does not need to be a player in a game to commit Fraud. In particular, teammates observing a game are expected to point out problems and call a judge to help if required.
A player must be aware that he or she has committed an error in representation in order for the infraction to be Fraud. For example, a player targeting a black creature with Terror has not committed Fraud if he or she forgot that Terror can not target black creatures, even though the action (playing Terror) was intentional and illegal. It is Fraud if a judge believes he or she was aware and hoping that his or her opponent would miss it.
Penalty
WWWWWUUUUUBBBBBRRRRRGGGGG
A valid and unique DCI number registered in the participant’s name. Note: New players must register for DCI membership at their first tournaments. Players may have only one DCI number. Tournament organizers must report any player using more than one DCI membership number. Should players find they have been assigned multiple DCI numbers, they should contact the Wizards of the Coast Customer Service at http://wizards.custhelp.com/
Can you tell us where that local store is?
These are the decks that I have constructed, and are ready to play:
01. Ankh Sligh to be exact.
What is the point of ratting these guys out? Are they hurting anybody with their actions?
they're taking prizes that others would've won, they're ripping noobs off in trades and ****ing up everyone else's scores... :facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm:
WUBRG
The point of "ratting these guys out" is because they have clearly committed a severe offense.
You might want to read the OP. From the looks of things, these guys are intentionally ripping off noobs in trades, make everyone's ratings suffer when they lose to them, and as a result the prizes are easy pickings for them. If that isn't hurting anybody with their actions, I'd be afraid to wonder what it take to do such a thing.
It's perfect example of sandbagging.
Well to be fair, they are taking prizes that they should have won and they probably would have still ripped off noobs.
The rating thing is the only thing that they are really doing with the alternate DCI number.
Top 64 Legacy Open SCG: Dallas/FortWorth 2013
SCG Open Trial (2013): 1st
Still fraud, man. Rat those ****ers out.
The problem is I know the Tournament Organizer is a really nice guy, and he has let people make new DCI cards in the past if the people forgot their number and he was unable to look it up. I think he was being trusting of these guys even though he was warned that they can be a bit shady. The players with pro points did give their real name, but it surprises me that he wasn't able to look up their official DCI numbers and use those? I mean, there's a way to do that right, even at a local hobby shop?
Before anyone rats anyone out, or takes any extreme action, I want to know if there's a simple peaceful solution, since we have a pretty friendly community, and all magic players see each other around town - there's no reason to stir up more bad blood (even though these guys seem like they don't care who they piss off).
Not that I'm defending their actions...but they really are not hurting WOTC and the DCI. At all.
WOTC and DCI have to do more work.
Top 64 Legacy Open SCG: Dallas/FortWorth 2013
SCG Open Trial (2013): 1st
Cuase you know its not like they would have won and ripped off the newbs and still finished the same way if not better if they were using their original dci numbers.....Nothing will change besides the amount of points their opponents lose.
And really what do limited rating points matter to any one not on the pro tour...they only really matter when your just under the marker to get invites any under that you dont matter any over you dont care....Personally I think the OP is fretting over something that doesnt matter.
Personal preference is nothing, The win is all that matters.
I will netdeck at every opportunity, but I will not let that stifle my creativity.
Style points do not appear on tournament reports.
A good deck with an incompetent pilot is nothing more than a dressed up match win.
I will crush my opponent mercilessly, and expect no less from him.
Victory is its own reward, The prize is just a bonus.
Legacy is dying
I think any serious violation of the rules matters.
My Trade List (long dead)
My Sales List (long dead)
">Foil Japanese Death and Taxes! (In progress, needs <10 cards)
Ripping people off in trades, while unethical, is not something WotC has anything to do with nor can they control it.
Let he who is without sin cast the first stone.
A major violation of the rules doesn't matter?
****. Might as well allow people to get away with breaking other major rules and running amok.
Just because it doesn't matter to you doesn't mean it doesn't matter. I'm personally not that good, so rating doesn't matter to me, but I've had friends have to skip events to preserve their rating. People who are cheating by having multiple DCI numbers are clearly gaining an advantage over people who play by the rules. There ARE rewards for rating and as such commiting fraud to gain those rewards should be punished.
If these players are indeed doing this thing, they are hurting the local scene by potentially causing bad blood amongst the players. The newer players who are getting jipped of not just cards in their collection but also of rating points will potentially quite playing competitively, which will cost the venue money, as well as wizards money. If such behavior amongst the Pro-Players spread to other locales, this could become a devastating Trend that could cost Wizards a great deal of money, and potentially put an end to Wizards of the Coast as we know it. As such, WotC should put all of their effort into stopping this trend from occurring wherever and whenever they can.
My only question is how Wizards doesn't catch when a second DCI number is registered under the same name as someone who already has a DCI number. I would think an alert or something would be signaled when that happens. Especially in the case of their pro-players.
What if they traded cards at a protour?
"That is not dead which can eternal lie, And with strange aeons even death may die."
- H.P. Lovecraft
That's perfectly fine. In fact, at sealed pro tours you do DECK SWAPS after you write up the DECK LISTS, which are done as you OPEN THE PACKS. But if it's constructed, you can't take cards out of your deck mid-tourney either. But you can trade cards if you want.
Let he who is without sin cast the first stone.
trading cards (I am assuming you aren't talking about their DCI number cards) is perfectly acceptable at all levels of play. It is up to the individuals involved in the trades to determine that they aren't being ripped off. Unfortunately that isn't always possible.
HOWEVER, should one of these pro-players use their fake DCI numbers at the Pro-Tour by accident, I am sure they would be called on it, and be treated to some... not so pleasant wake up calls. Such as Disqualification from the Event or worse.