a well constructed magic deck is far from a cheesecake. rather its much more akin to a bridge or anything else that's constructed not cooked (yes there is a difference, virginia). looking at a skeleton of an archetypal deck (sligh, control, combo) any player with an IQ over 100 should be able to spot patterns and trends in what types of cards are good and what cards aren't. also, the fact that they don't have all the in depth information when they're handed a deck. however, watching that player learn how to be a better player when given a good deck vs a horrible deck. they learn things like decision making, bluffing, etc.
its okay that you're wrong, thavis.....that's how you learn.
I am getting quite fed up with the jerks who show up to to FNMs and other casual events who Are ther to win and be obnoxious, does anyone else feel the same way? I know that some people only have fun by winning but in my opinion, there needs to be a new sanctioned event for people who just want to win, and for the the casual people, they can keep FNM.
Thoughts?
There's a big difference between showing up to win and being an ass to the poor souls that are unlucky enough to get paired against you. It's possible to play tight (or even call a judge) while maitaining a sense of humor and a good conversation. Granted, you can't get too slap-happy or things get real sloppy, but everyone should be a joy to play with, win or lose.
There's no way to separate the good sports from the bad sports. No matter what type of tournament it is, there will be both poor losers and poor winners. However, regardless of who your opponent is, the duty is on you to be a good sport. If someone's a jerk, recognize them as a jerk. Don't get mad at them because they happen to win more often than most. It's a tournament, the point is to face off against some seriously challenging competition, and eliminating the best players from contention undermines that principle.
Quote from OneUglyHobbit »
As for so called "jerks who are there just to win". I think you're being a little too liberal with the term jerk. It's fine to come to win, it's fun to win, and it's fine to come and have fun and lose. But the people that are the biggest problem are the ones who try to win at any cost. The rules lawyers, cheaters, and arrogant snobs who don't think anyone should be able to beat them.
I actually hate the term "rules lawyer." If it's a rule, then it's completely fair to point it out and apply it. You shouldn't fault your opponent for mistakes you make; it's not his fault there aren't take-backs in Magic. (Note: I'm referring to relatively high-level events, like PTQs, here. Low-level tournaments, like FNMs, aren't supposed to be enforced as rigidly.)
Of course, not everyone uses real rules; some use fake ones. There are jerks who will try to deliberately fool a judge in order to manipulate the outcome of a match, or who will waste everyone's time stubbornly defending a rule that doesn't exist. I guess those people are worthy of the term "rules lawyer."
Quote from Lance »
I think what annoys me more than the jerks who play Magic are the people who make excuses for losing no matter what.
People only get better when they realize their mistakes and correct them. Making excuses only ensures that such mistakes will perpetuate forever. It's much safer to assume that everything is your fault, because then you'll learn skills which can actually overcome luck. (Well, not all luck. But some luck. And that's about the best you can do anyway.)
Quote from Crimson Avatar »
Actually, that's semi-true. I've known many people while I've played who netdeck and when they switch decks to a similar type of deck they don't know how to play it at all. I have no actually problem with netdecking but you MUST know how to build a deck in the first place if you're going to do that... otherwise you may end up with an idiot who knows nothing about the decks he's netdecking...
Actually, it's pretty hard to learn how to build a good deck before you have an idea what competive decks look like. Probably the best way to learn deckbuilding is by tweaking netdecks; just hand a netdeck to somone with the challenge to make it better, and through experimentation they'll learn quite a bit.
As someone who lost to Mark Kelso in a Columbus PTQ Top 8, I can tell you that, all other things being equal, rogue is better than netdeck. Generally we think of netdeck as "tried and true" and rogue as "overhyped and unproven," but these are mere generalizations, not hard and fast rules. Netdeck can also mean "predictable" (which is actually a very, very bad trait to have) while rogue can mean that your opponent has absolutely no clue what to do... a very good trait, and the main reason I lost that match.
Spock is not portrayed correctly. If Vulcans are above petty emotions, what motivates him to join the most elite starship crew in the galaxy? I, on the other hand, have transcended the weakness of emotion and achieved a blissful lack of caring. Apathy is my strength, our strength, which prevents us from being all-to-human. In this spirit, may Meh be with you, always.
Just ignore them, the more one complains, the worse they are going. This would generally mean they are not within their right to brag. If the winner keeps rubbign it in somoen should get angry at them. This is how it works here, I am not sure about the states.
a well constructed magic deck is far from a cheesecake. rather its much more akin to a bridge or anything else that's constructed not cooked (yes there is a difference, virginia). looking at a skeleton of an archetypal deck (sligh, control, combo) any player with an IQ over 100 should be able to spot patterns and trends in what types of cards are good and what cards aren't. also, the fact that they don't have all the in depth information when they're handed a deck. however, watching that player learn how to be a better player when given a good deck vs a horrible deck. they learn things like decision making, bluffing, etc.
its okay that you're wrong, thavis.....that's how you learn.
I really don't see how cooking is different than construction. Sure there's different tools and raw supplies, but if you mean there's the chemical change during mixing and baking (like the samonila that's killed in the eggs) there's similar changes when cement is mixed. Now a wooden bridge, sure. Either metaphor/simile is sufficient, Montana.
For new players or poor players, distinguishing the skeleton of a deck is impossible from the filler of deck. Take Extended Mind's Desire; Desire players know that it's possible for the deck to combo out without the namesake card, all they need is a little luck, skill and Brain Freeze. Anyone looking at at Desire netdeck, however, doesn't necessarily know that, and going into a tournament probably won't think of that option.
The rest of your post isn't in complete sentences, but I'll piece it together the best I can.
Spotting good cards: Aether Vial was underappreciated for several months after being released. It took Bob Maher winning a tournament for all the netdeckers to drop Astral Slide from their Slide decks. Just because a card is suboptimal doesn't mean people stop running it, even the professionals.
Not all the information: Um, yes, they don't have all the information?
Decision making and bluff and etc.: My argument is that giving a poor player a good netdeck and squaring them off against against anyone with a poor deck is not going to improve anyone's game. Well, it might help the player with the poor deck. But either the netdecker will blunder the netdeck and lose or will win because the cards are too synergestic and good.
So, paper scissors rock, with weight being placed on who spent more money? Sounds about right to me.
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I don't know. I have beaten down several players with a deck that had exactly 4 rares in it just to prove a point. Granted that was FNM, not exactly a PTQ, but...
And I somewhat agree with the rules lawyer comment. Knowing the rules and using them to your advantage is one thing. Being an insufferable ass about it is not ok. I read about someone using a discard spell and putting it in his graveyard before the person showed him his hand and the person called a judge who ruled that because the player put the card into his graveyard, its effect was over and he missed the opportunity to choose a card for the other player to discard. That is crap. I think if someone forgets once and you remind them, then they forget again, they are fair game, but seriously. If every magic player knew every rule, we'd all be DCI judges and all tournament rulings would be made by the person playing on your left, or something random.
I read about someone using a discard spell and putting it in his graveyard before the person showed him his hand and the person called a judge who ruled that because the player put the card into his graveyard, its effect was over and he missed the opportunity to choose a card for the other player to discard. That is crap.
It's most certainly crap, and it also wouldn't fly with the vast majority of judges today. Personally, I'd cite the complainer for unsporting conduct and give him a warning for it. The other player played a spell with the clear intent of making him discard, and I'm not going to ignore that just because he took a shortcut and put the card in the graveyard too soon.
I think this story was from a few years ago. Judges now would not tolerate that. There was a very good and influential judge article called "Ruling by Intent" that is used as a guideline in many situations. Also, the judge program is better run and organized now than at any point in its previous history.
I have had a bad experence with Jordan Berkowitz. He is truly an ass. I was sitting next to him at a gp and the opponent asked if he could count his sb for him. So he took it and counted it then he asked to count his, so Jordan took it out of his hands and threw it at the player. I was like wow... what a dick.
I also do not like the 33 yr old people who cry when they lose a match. I beat a guy at a fnm in draft and I went to shake his hand and say good game. He pulled his hands away and just like sobbed NO NO GOOD GAME NO. I was like what ever dude.
yeah - obviously I disagree with you, John. Spam Warning!.....Amazing - even in a forum where posts don't count, there's spam. That proves that getting rid of the post-count won't help getting rid of spam! Thans for this excellent example! - Craven
Well, typically it's not very nice to say "good game" after winning. It makes you look arrogant.
At times, when a good player complains about a loss, it is often because they played perfectly and lost to sheer, blind, stupid luck. Losing to a topdecked Eternal Witness after taking complete control of the game is not fun.
Anyways, if your next opponent is a notorious giant jerk, don't feel so bad if they enter "jerk mode" during your match. Irritated/frustrated/angry players are much easier to outplay than someone who doesn't display emotion. If some jerk is anoying everybody at FNM, just beat them. That's all you have to do, outplay them.
As long as, at the event, players can get any kind of reward for winning games, you will always have these kind of people.
Agreed.
Quote from Magemoth »
FNM is for people who are just getting into competitive play to build up their DCI rating and such. Tournament play is just that, competition. Whether it is at a local FNM or a pro tour, people do not show up to goof off, they show up to win. If you do not enjoy competitive play, do not play in the tournaments.
Agreed.
Quote from extremeicon »
In any form of competition, whether there're prizes at stake or not, there will always be obnoxious a-holes who absolutely have to win at all costs and generally also have to let you know about it. Heck, even with stupid Yahoo! games you get people like that who trash talk and cuss at you and stuff. It sucks but there's no avoiding it
Agreed.
Quote from Machius »
a FNM is a tournament and it adds to you're DCI ratings so of course there's going to be people there who are gunning for the win, if you don't like cutthroat competitiveness in magic the best thing to do is keep to the casual side of magic with you're friends.
Agreed.
Quote from Lance »
I think what annoys me more than the jerks who play Magic are the people who make excuses for losing no matter what.
Agreed.
Quote from Beta-Male »
competition is about winning, plain & simple. competitors will do what it takes, within the rules (most of the time), to win. if that means not being original then so be it. i would much rather win with a deck i picked up from the t8 of another tournament than lose horribly with a pile of cards i threw together to make a deck that's not tested and proven.
Agreed.
Quote from makkert »
Netdecking doesn't make a good player.
Agreed.
Quote from Crimson Avatar »
As for FNMs and why jerks keep showing up there, the whole thing has to do with how much those FNM foils sell for. Some of those in my area can sell for as high as 20 bucks a piece. Not bad for a free tourney. And this doesn't include that some use FNM as a tune up for States/Regionals/whatever.
Agreed.
Quote from Beta-Male »
if you wanna whine & fuss about netdeck players, stop losing so much and put better decks together. there's a reason the netdecks are netdecks and there's also a reason that your pet deck isn't a netdeck.
Agreed.
Quote from Beta-Male »
a well constructed magic deck is far from a cheesecake. rather its much more akin to a bridge or anything else that's constructed not cooked (yes there is a difference, virginia). looking at a skeleton of an archetypal deck (sligh, control, combo) any player with an IQ over 100 should be able to spot patterns and trends in what types of cards are good and what cards aren't. also, the fact that they don't have all the in depth information when they're handed a deck. however, watching that player learn how to be a better player when given a good deck vs a horrible deck. they learn things like decision making, bluffing, etc.
its okay that you're wrong, thavis.....that's how you learn.
Agreed.
Quote from billking »
There's a big difference between showing up to win and being an ass to the poor souls that are unlucky enough to get paired against you. It's possible to play tight (or even call a judge) while maitaining a sense of humor and a good conversation. Granted, you can't get too slap-happy or things get real sloppy, but everyone should be a joy to play with, win or lose.
There's no way to separate the good sports from the bad sports. No matter what type of tournament it is, there will be both poor losers and poor winners. However, regardless of who your opponent is, the duty is on you to be a good sport. If someone's a jerk, recognize them as a jerk. Don't get mad at them because they happen to win more often than most. It's a tournament, the point is to face off against some seriously challenging competition, and eliminating the best players from contention undermines that principle.I actually hate the term "rules lawyer." If it's a rule, then it's completely fair to point it out and apply it. You shouldn't fault your opponent for mistakes you make; it's not his fault there aren't take-backs in Magic. (Note: I'm referring to relatively high-level events, like PTQs, here. Low-level tournaments, like FNMs, aren't supposed to be enforced as rigidly.)
Of course, not everyone uses real rules; some use fake ones. There are jerks who will try to deliberately fool a judge in order to manipulate the outcome of a match, or who will waste everyone's time stubbornly defending a rule that doesn't exist. I guess those people are worthy of the term "rules lawyer."People only get better when they realize their mistakes and correct them. Making excuses only ensures that such mistakes will perpetuate forever. It's much safer to assume that everything is your fault, because then you'll learn skills which can actually overcome luck. (Well, not all luck. But some luck. And that's about the best you can do anyway.)Actually, it's pretty hard to learn how to build a good deck before you have an idea what competive decks look like. Probably the best way to learn deckbuilding is by tweaking netdecks; just hand a netdeck to somone with the challenge to make it better, and through experimentation they'll learn quite a bit.
As someone who lost to Mark Kelso in a Columbus PTQ Top 8, I can tell you that, all other things being equal, rogue is better than netdeck. Generally we think of netdeck as "tried and true" and rogue as "overhyped and unproven," but these are mere generalizations, not hard and fast rules. Netdeck can also mean "predictable" (which is actually a very, very bad trait to have) while rogue can mean that your opponent has absolutely no clue what to do... a very good trait, and the main reason I lost that match.
Agreed.
Quote from Machius »
a FNM is a tournament and it adds to you're DCI ratings so of course there's going to be people there who are gunning for the win, if you don't like cutthroat competitiveness in magic the best thing to do is keep to the casual side of magic with you're friends.
Agreed.
Quote from draygn_mage »
I read about someone using a discard spell and putting it in his graveyard before the person showed him his hand and the person called a judge who ruled that because the player put the card into his graveyard, its effect was over and he missed the opportunity to choose a card for the other player to discard.
The guy who pulled that one is my hero. Haha.
Being a rules lawyer is the best. Being a jerk and winning is even better. Using the rules by being an ass is ok. Its a game. If people dont know the rules that is their bad. Not yours. The only time I am not a jerk is during casual play. Other than that I enforce everything.
Also being a jerk does have a good side. By being a rules lawyering jerk and calling your opp on something stupid and winning for it just makes them angry and upset. Then going into Game 2 or 3 just puts them on edge and they wont focus as much because they are probably pissed about that rulling and messes up their mind set.
I gotta agree on the good game thing, I always say it, even when I get pounded, land screwed or whatever, the thing that really gets me is the type of players that moan after you've beaten them with either one of these comments:
-'OH, I could have beaten you if only I had drawn my {Whatever} last turn' ....Yeah...
-'OH, I would have won, if you didn't beat me last turn...' ....Huh?
-'Oh, I didn't draw enough {Insert card here}' ....hmmm
and last but not least:
'You seem to be drawing an awful lot of {Insert card here}, are you sure you're shuffling properly?' ...what?
I NEVER make excuses for losing, never, even in my worst game, I just quietly shuffle, offer the opponent the cut, smile and get on with the next game. What some players don't seem to realise is once the game is won or lost, no amount of excuses is going to change it, if your deck isn't doing what it's supposed to do, maybe you should stop saying things like '..Didn't draw enough land, didn't get my {insert card here}' and focus on efficient deck construction...
That said, there are plenty of great players out there that make this game a real pleasure to play, thank goodness there's more of them than the jerks
Yes hydro thats exactly what I am talking about. I like to be a good sport. Otherwise you get a rep for being a dick. I never make excuses for losing except when I do not like the person and I persuade them to say give me a dollar for a soda.
yeah - obviously I disagree with you, John. Spam Warning!.....Amazing - even in a forum where posts don't count, there's spam. That proves that getting rid of the post-count won't help getting rid of spam! Thans for this excellent example! - Craven
I dislike the kids who think there so cool and super good magic players when they netdeck a deck with 80$ of their dads money. I mean I have no problem with getting beaten, I just dont like cocky people. And some people have jobs with girlfriends and college to pay for. Okay, Im fine now.:)
Anyways, from what I see from shdwpup and BetaMale, "jerk" = you don't give a damn about anybody else. And yes shdwpup, you are indeed a jerk.
So, am I sick of jerks in Magic? Thankfully there are few, if any in my playgroup, but I am sick of jerks anywhere, regardless of whether in Magic ("it's a game" or whatnot) or anywhere else. If you don't care about anybody else, why should anybody else care about you? If you're so intent on screwing other people over for your own gain, frankly, I wouldn't want anything to do with you.
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a well constructed magic deck is far from a cheesecake. rather its much more akin to a bridge or anything else that's constructed not cooked (yes there is a difference, virginia). looking at a skeleton of an archetypal deck (sligh, control, combo) any player with an IQ over 100 should be able to spot patterns and trends in what types of cards are good and what cards aren't. also, the fact that they don't have all the in depth information when they're handed a deck. however, watching that player learn how to be a better player when given a good deck vs a horrible deck. they learn things like decision making, bluffing, etc.
its okay that you're wrong, thavis.....that's how you learn.
There's no way to separate the good sports from the bad sports. No matter what type of tournament it is, there will be both poor losers and poor winners. However, regardless of who your opponent is, the duty is on you to be a good sport. If someone's a jerk, recognize them as a jerk. Don't get mad at them because they happen to win more often than most. It's a tournament, the point is to face off against some seriously challenging competition, and eliminating the best players from contention undermines that principle. I actually hate the term "rules lawyer." If it's a rule, then it's completely fair to point it out and apply it. You shouldn't fault your opponent for mistakes you make; it's not his fault there aren't take-backs in Magic. (Note: I'm referring to relatively high-level events, like PTQs, here. Low-level tournaments, like FNMs, aren't supposed to be enforced as rigidly.)
Of course, not everyone uses real rules; some use fake ones. There are jerks who will try to deliberately fool a judge in order to manipulate the outcome of a match, or who will waste everyone's time stubbornly defending a rule that doesn't exist. I guess those people are worthy of the term "rules lawyer." People only get better when they realize their mistakes and correct them. Making excuses only ensures that such mistakes will perpetuate forever. It's much safer to assume that everything is your fault, because then you'll learn skills which can actually overcome luck. (Well, not all luck. But some luck. And that's about the best you can do anyway.) Actually, it's pretty hard to learn how to build a good deck before you have an idea what competive decks look like. Probably the best way to learn deckbuilding is by tweaking netdecks; just hand a netdeck to somone with the challenge to make it better, and through experimentation they'll learn quite a bit.
As someone who lost to Mark Kelso in a Columbus PTQ Top 8, I can tell you that, all other things being equal, rogue is better than netdeck. Generally we think of netdeck as "tried and true" and rogue as "overhyped and unproven," but these are mere generalizations, not hard and fast rules. Netdeck can also mean "predictable" (which is actually a very, very bad trait to have) while rogue can mean that your opponent has absolutely no clue what to do... a very good trait, and the main reason I lost that match.
Spock is not portrayed correctly. If Vulcans are above petty emotions, what motivates him to join the most elite starship crew in the galaxy? I, on the other hand, have transcended the weakness of emotion and achieved a blissful lack of caring. Apathy is my strength, our strength, which prevents us from being all-to-human. In this spirit, may Meh be with you, always.
I really don't see how cooking is different than construction. Sure there's different tools and raw supplies, but if you mean there's the chemical change during mixing and baking (like the samonila that's killed in the eggs) there's similar changes when cement is mixed. Now a wooden bridge, sure. Either metaphor/simile is sufficient, Montana.
For new players or poor players, distinguishing the skeleton of a deck is impossible from the filler of deck. Take Extended Mind's Desire; Desire players know that it's possible for the deck to combo out without the namesake card, all they need is a little luck, skill and Brain Freeze. Anyone looking at at Desire netdeck, however, doesn't necessarily know that, and going into a tournament probably won't think of that option.
The rest of your post isn't in complete sentences, but I'll piece it together the best I can.
Spotting good cards: Aether Vial was underappreciated for several months after being released. It took Bob Maher winning a tournament for all the netdeckers to drop Astral Slide from their Slide decks. Just because a card is suboptimal doesn't mean people stop running it, even the professionals.
Not all the information: Um, yes, they don't have all the information?
Decision making and bluff and etc.: My argument is that giving a poor player a good netdeck and squaring them off against against anyone with a poor deck is not going to improve anyone's game. Well, it might help the player with the poor deck. But either the netdecker will blunder the netdeck and lose or will win because the cards are too synergestic and good.
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"...FOMG THE SCROLL LOCK KEY DOES SOMETHING "
And I somewhat agree with the rules lawyer comment. Knowing the rules and using them to your advantage is one thing. Being an insufferable ass about it is not ok. I read about someone using a discard spell and putting it in his graveyard before the person showed him his hand and the person called a judge who ruled that because the player put the card into his graveyard, its effect was over and he missed the opportunity to choose a card for the other player to discard. That is crap. I think if someone forgets once and you remind them, then they forget again, they are fair game, but seriously. If every magic player knew every rule, we'd all be DCI judges and all tournament rulings would be made by the person playing on your left, or something random.
It's most certainly crap, and it also wouldn't fly with the vast majority of judges today. Personally, I'd cite the complainer for unsporting conduct and give him a warning for it. The other player played a spell with the clear intent of making him discard, and I'm not going to ignore that just because he took a shortcut and put the card in the graveyard too soon.
I think this story was from a few years ago. Judges now would not tolerate that. There was a very good and influential judge article called "Ruling by Intent" that is used as a guideline in many situations. Also, the judge program is better run and organized now than at any point in its previous history.
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I also do not like the 33 yr old people who cry when they lose a match. I beat a guy at a fnm in draft and I went to shake his hand and say good game. He pulled his hands away and just like sobbed NO NO GOOD GAME NO. I was like what ever dude.
At times, when a good player complains about a loss, it is often because they played perfectly and lost to sheer, blind, stupid luck. Losing to a topdecked Eternal Witness after taking complete control of the game is not fun.
Anyways, if your next opponent is a notorious giant jerk, don't feel so bad if they enter "jerk mode" during your match. Irritated/frustrated/angry players are much easier to outplay than someone who doesn't display emotion. If some jerk is anoying everybody at FNM, just beat them. That's all you have to do, outplay them.
Agreed.
Agreed.
Agreed.
Agreed.
Agreed.
Agreed.
Agreed.
Agreed.
Agreed.
Agreed.
Agreed.
The guy who pulled that one is my hero. Haha.
Being a rules lawyer is the best. Being a jerk and winning is even better. Using the rules by being an ass is ok. Its a game. If people dont know the rules that is their bad. Not yours. The only time I am not a jerk is during casual play. Other than that I enforce everything.
Also being a jerk does have a good side. By being a rules lawyering jerk and calling your opp on something stupid and winning for it just makes them angry and upset. Then going into Game 2 or 3 just puts them on edge and they wont focus as much because they are probably pissed about that rulling and messes up their mind set.
And anyway if you win and say "good game" and the other guy thinks you are being arrogant? he really needs to get a grip...
This makes me want to laugh, cry, and crawl under my bed and never come out again... Actually it REALLY makes me want to sing along!
'Cause I'd rather stay here
For I'm quite content their all as sane as me
-'OH, I could have beaten you if only I had drawn my {Whatever} last turn' ....Yeah...
-'OH, I would have won, if you didn't beat me last turn...' ....Huh?
-'Oh, I didn't draw enough {Insert card here}' ....hmmm
and last but not least:
'You seem to be drawing an awful lot of {Insert card here}, are you sure you're shuffling properly?' ...what?
I NEVER make excuses for losing, never, even in my worst game, I just quietly shuffle, offer the opponent the cut, smile and get on with the next game. What some players don't seem to realise is once the game is won or lost, no amount of excuses is going to change it, if your deck isn't doing what it's supposed to do, maybe you should stop saying things like '..Didn't draw enough land, didn't get my {insert card here}' and focus on efficient deck construction...
That said, there are plenty of great players out there that make this game a real pleasure to play, thank goodness there's more of them than the jerks
Look at these two things you said, side by side.
Then go burn your collection.
People like you are what's wrong with Magic.
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Think.
He seems to think I am cool and thinks more people should be like me. I agree with him.
Anyways, from what I see from shdwpup and BetaMale, "jerk" = you don't give a damn about anybody else. And yes shdwpup, you are indeed a jerk.
So, am I sick of jerks in Magic? Thankfully there are few, if any in my playgroup, but I am sick of jerks anywhere, regardless of whether in Magic ("it's a game" or whatnot) or anywhere else. If you don't care about anybody else, why should anybody else care about you? If you're so intent on screwing other people over for your own gain, frankly, I wouldn't want anything to do with you.