The Vigilant dude indeed might be something better @ 2/4. Something to consider with Brainwash creature is that, as currently worded, each creature actually deals 1 more damage than its power when fighting creatures (Technically better because it also reduces power by one and stays over multiple turns), so it's really more of a 4/4 Vigilant dude ATM.
Another thing to note is that blocking Brainwash creatures is pretty difficult, not just because of Brainwashing them but because they wear you down over time with repeated -1/-1 counters. A possible good future card for the rebellion, presumably set 2?, would be a guy with Defender who is immune to Brainwashing (Maybe with flavor text mentioning countermeasures starting to be developed?). This would help allow decks to block Brainwash creatures and not be run over which is probably important for Limited (It wouldn't need to be pushed for Constructed if wanted).
I really liked SHock Therapy's name + flavor which is why I wrote so much on it in the first place, so I certainly agree the name works awesome with it.
EDIT: Another thing to consider, any Instant with non-conditional targetting can be used as a miniature combat trick due to putting a -1/-1 counter on.
You're right lion (or MaRo), it does make it even cooler.
It depends if you also want to thank the messenger! I'm no more than that. Anyway, if you're interested, I found the podcast I was thinking about. Reuben and Dan call that concept "anchoring" and talk about it at length in episode 5 and episode 6. Feel free to check those out if you have time and will.
Lastly, I'd like to propose Inaction Injunction as our first reprint. The flavor text already works perfectly. All you'd have to do is change it to be attributed to Father Dahl.
I totally agree. I had also independently thought of that same card, but didn't notice the flavor text. It's really a nice quote for Dahl.
A possible good future card for the rebellion, presumably set 2?, would be a guy with Defender who is immune to Brainwashing (Maybe with flavor text mentioning countermeasures starting to be developed?). This would help allow decks to block Brainwash creatures and not be run over which is probably important for Limited (It wouldn't need to be pushed for Constructed if wanted).
Green has the ability "this creature can't have counters on it" in the color pie, see Melira's Keepers, and it also happens to be one of the central colors for the Rebels. I'd use that as "immunity to brainwashing". Let's keep all of this in mind for when we'll officially design cards.
MCC - Winner (6): Oct 2014, Apr Nov 2017, Jan 2018, Apr Jun 2019 || Host (15): Dec 2014, Apr Jul Aug Dec 2015, Mar Jul Aug Oct 2016, Feb Jul 2017, Jun Nov 2018, Feb Jul 2019 (last one here) || Judge (34): every month from Nov 2014 to Nov 2016 except Oct 2015, every month from Feb to Jul 2017 except Apr 2017, then Oct 2017, May Jun Nov 2018, Feb Jul 2019 (last one here) CCL - Winner (3): Jul 2016 (tied with Flatline), May 2017, Jul 2019 (last one here) || Host (5): Feb 2015, Mar Apr May Jun 2016 DCC - Winner (1): Mar 2015 (tied with Piar) || Host (3): May Oct 2015, Jan 2016
• The two public custom sets I've been part a part of the design team for: "Brotherhood of Ormos" - Blog post with all info - set thread - design skeleton / card list || "Extinctia: Homo Evanuit" - Blog post with all info - set thread - card list spreadsheet
• "The Lion's Lair", my article series about MTG and custom card design in particular. Latest article here. Here is the article index.Rather outdated by now, and based on the old MCC rubric, but I'm leaving this here for anybody that might be interested anyway.
• My only public attempt at being a writer: the story of my Leonin custom planeswalker Jeff Lionheart. (I have a very big one that I'm working on right now but that's private for now, and I don't know if I will ever actually publish it, and I also have ideas for multiple future ones, including one where I'm going to reprise Jeff.)
Yeah, that sounds good. Sorry if I was veering too far off topic or being intrusive, heh. Just had some thoughts.
No, absolutely! If you have more, don't refrain from posting. It's just that we're not yet at the point of the process where we design cards, and I wouldn't want to lose the thread of it. That's all!
Private Mod Note
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Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
MCC - Winner (6): Oct 2014, Apr Nov 2017, Jan 2018, Apr Jun 2019 || Host (15): Dec 2014, Apr Jul Aug Dec 2015, Mar Jul Aug Oct 2016, Feb Jul 2017, Jun Nov 2018, Feb Jul 2019 (last one here) || Judge (34): every month from Nov 2014 to Nov 2016 except Oct 2015, every month from Feb to Jul 2017 except Apr 2017, then Oct 2017, May Jun Nov 2018, Feb Jul 2019 (last one here) CCL - Winner (3): Jul 2016 (tied with Flatline), May 2017, Jul 2019 (last one here) || Host (5): Feb 2015, Mar Apr May Jun 2016 DCC - Winner (1): Mar 2015 (tied with Piar) || Host (3): May Oct 2015, Jan 2016
• The two public custom sets I've been part a part of the design team for: "Brotherhood of Ormos" - Blog post with all info - set thread - design skeleton / card list || "Extinctia: Homo Evanuit" - Blog post with all info - set thread - card list spreadsheet
• "The Lion's Lair", my article series about MTG and custom card design in particular. Latest article here. Here is the article index.Rather outdated by now, and based on the old MCC rubric, but I'm leaving this here for anybody that might be interested anyway.
• My only public attempt at being a writer: the story of my Leonin custom planeswalker Jeff Lionheart. (I have a very big one that I'm working on right now but that's private for now, and I don't know if I will ever actually publish it, and I also have ideas for multiple future ones, including one where I'm going to reprise Jeff.)
Some thoughts just from reading the Brotherhood of Ormos Index/Blog again, haven't gone through the topic entirely, so it is possible some of these have been answered, but I figured I'd give my two cents anyways:
1. Dahl's motivations right now feel kind of weak for a main block antagonist with an end leaving open the possibility of return and I feel could perhaps be molded a bit more towards the idea of showing off the bad/extreme side of white and oppression. I feel like perhaps mixing in a bit of White to go with his motivation in addition to his Black motivation of power could help with this: Perhaps one of the reasons he seeks power is not just for power's sake, but also so he can use it to impose his idea of "order"? The selfishness could still come from the fact he feels only he is fit to produce such "order" or is worthy for it, thus him hoarding power, and you could even make it so that some of this develope from his conquest to Ormos to begin with (Originally using the order just as a sham but over time coming to believe it is also his duty to impose order with his power or it being what he selfishly desires to DO with that power). This could also mix in some Blue by the fact that his order seems to particularly dislike various emotions judging from the Personality, though as Blue is his third color (Mostly there due to artifice) it would be downplayed (Hence his severe restriction of knowledge).
2. Tezzeret seems like more trouble than he is worth here, but I do feel that perhaps involving someone or something related to a big Planeswalker would fit, because it seems likely that with forces like Nicol Bolas, Ugin, Sorin Markov etc in the universe someone would notice a Plane that they cannot get in. One idea would be, since there's SOME level of ambiguity to if the Infinite Consortium exists + Nicol Bolas could make a new one anyway given he's Nicol Bolas (It was just that the Ravnica one is the only KNOWN cell left), that a new member of the Infinite Consortium could be investigating.
While not related to anyone large I can actually see Tamiyo slotting in easily: She travels a lot to try and find new knowledge, so the odds of her coming across a remote plane like Ormos would not be unreasonable, the idea of there being a Plane she cannot enter would both agitate and intrigue her and then when the Network goes down, she rushes in to get the knowledge the Plane holds (and would work as a counterpart to Dahl's censoring of information). I bring this up because IIRC someone mentioned Tamiyo as an option.
"one that visited Ormos long ago but Father Dahl erased every trace of his/her visit." This is a fun idea but I am not sure it works because Dahl artifically extends his lifespawn so Planeswalkers who visited it back then are, for the most part, probably dead. If this was done they would probably need to be a big character due to them still being alive over such a long period of time.
3. Is Father Dahl a human? I assume so, which works fine, but I wanted to ask. I bring this up because a secondary option is that Dahl is a species not native to Ormos and uses his unique appearance or whatnot to help with his claims of divinity (I am made in the image of the divine/I am the divine, from which no others are like me). If this is so then we could have one of the PWers who comes in later be the same species to further break his facade, but that may be too coincidental.
4. If you begin with Brainwash in Set 1 with -1/-1 counters and then do +1/+1s in the second set, you may have difficulties because you basically cannot reference Brainwash in the 2nd set (Unless you entirely ignore no different +s/-s in the same set as suggested but since this split was designed to get around it anyway) because there can't be BRainwash in the set and referencing Brainwashing in a set with no Brainwash cards would be very confusing.
5. Some thoughts on if you guys wanted to have a returning mechanic in the Rebel section
Convoke: Convoke could help show the idea of Rebels working together to break the yolk of oppression, though amusingly with different interp it also works as a Brotherhood mechanic. Kinda eh as an idea.
Exalted: Kind of a weird idea, but by focusing on attacking alone you are giving the idea of "individuality", and the idea of a single person rising to fight against the unthinking masses that oppose them. Exalted has some issue with not being Red but since it has appeared in every color except Red and there's nothing inherently anti-Red about it, it could easily be stretched into it, or only seen on Rebel cards that are non-Red.
Heroic: This was just used admittedly, but if we ignore that, it focuses on boosting a single creature (Individuality) vs. the masses, the name certainly fits a Rebel theme who are throwing off the yolk of oppression and it kind of works as a fun opposite to Detain and Implants (They target something to bring it down. The rebels target things to raise them up.)
6. I would not use Indignant/Indignation because it directly counters both of Ormos' keywords, Detain and Implants, since AFAIK they both target and get stopped, which would create a very warped Limited enviroment and just plain be weird flavor-wise to me.
7. Back to the story for a moment, something like the Isolating Network probably needs a concrete reason for existing, why is Dahl able to make this thing that can keep PWers out when there's many more powerful people who cannot, even when it'd be beneficial for them? Something that might help this is if maybe there's something special about Ormos that allows it to be constructed, which helped Dahl choose Ormos over different planes. It could also add a fun story element for the second set: What if the Rebels are able to commandeer it/part of this source and turn it to their own ends? This could also be something non-core PWers would be interested in.
8. I'd be interested in how the general gameplay of the set will work with the ideas of oppression, fighting it, feeling like the oppressor or the opressed etc. There's mechanics here but I do wonder if there's any more specifics in mind for how to create the enviroment you want.
(Unrelatedly, I kept accidentally spelling Ormos as Oromos. Whoops!)
EDIT: Also, a question. Why is it Dahl's home plane has enough/the ability to get Planeswalkers to hunt him down anyway? Did there just happen to be a bunch there or?
I was thinking about "a few" more, but hey, who am I to complain when I often do the same thing myself?
Quick as I want to go watch the BFZ preview show streaming.
1. I can see Dahl wanting to impose his own idea of order and I think it may be easily compatible with what we already have. I'd like to hear from Flatline about this though, as Dahl is mostly his creation.
2. The more time passes, the more I'm actually glad we excluded Tezzeret as it came with a lot of restrictions and clashed with Dahl's character. Without Tezzeret around, Dahl is free to do whatever he wants and we have no problems with our storyline having to connect to his somehow. I think not having Tezzeret is definitely the way to go now.
I like your way to involve Tamiyo. I thought her intention was to continue studying Innistrad's moon, but we can say that this is just another branch of her studies. Flatline?
3. Yes, he's a human. I thought I had written it in my blog post, but I may be wrong.
4. Yes, that's true. This can be solved in two ways: abandon the -/+ counter split, which I really liked, or make brainwash the mechanic we drop for the Brotherhood in the second set instead of Implants. Actually, I really like this idea: if in the second set the Brotherhood falls, no more brainwashing will be going on, so it can make sense to not have it in the set.
5. I'm not sure we want a returning mechanic for the Rebels. Among the three you mention, convoke is the one I see fitting best, but again, I'm not sure we want to have such a mechanic.
6. I was never passionate about that mechanic to begin with, my attitude was more "ok, I can accept it, let's see how it goes", so I wouldn't mind not using it.
7. In my mind Dahl builds the Isolating Network to help reinforce his image of a god. I'd be open to connect the Network to something exclusive to Ormos, but what could it be? Flatline, what do you think about this?
8. I don't have anything more specific in mind for now. We still have to reach that point.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
MCC - Winner (6): Oct 2014, Apr Nov 2017, Jan 2018, Apr Jun 2019 || Host (15): Dec 2014, Apr Jul Aug Dec 2015, Mar Jul Aug Oct 2016, Feb Jul 2017, Jun Nov 2018, Feb Jul 2019 (last one here) || Judge (34): every month from Nov 2014 to Nov 2016 except Oct 2015, every month from Feb to Jul 2017 except Apr 2017, then Oct 2017, May Jun Nov 2018, Feb Jul 2019 (last one here) CCL - Winner (3): Jul 2016 (tied with Flatline), May 2017, Jul 2019 (last one here) || Host (5): Feb 2015, Mar Apr May Jun 2016 DCC - Winner (1): Mar 2015 (tied with Piar) || Host (3): May Oct 2015, Jan 2016
• The two public custom sets I've been part a part of the design team for: "Brotherhood of Ormos" - Blog post with all info - set thread - design skeleton / card list || "Extinctia: Homo Evanuit" - Blog post with all info - set thread - card list spreadsheet
• "The Lion's Lair", my article series about MTG and custom card design in particular. Latest article here. Here is the article index.Rather outdated by now, and based on the old MCC rubric, but I'm leaving this here for anybody that might be interested anyway.
• My only public attempt at being a writer: the story of my Leonin custom planeswalker Jeff Lionheart. (I have a very big one that I'm working on right now but that's private for now, and I don't know if I will ever actually publish it, and I also have ideas for multiple future ones, including one where I'm going to reprise Jeff.)
Thanks for the interest in our block Ruki! Your input is appreciated. Below is my attempt to respond to your thoughts. My responses are bolded within your quote.
Some thoughts just from reading the Brotherhood of Ormos Index/Blog again, haven't gone through the topic entirely, so it is possible some of these have been answered, but I figured I'd give my two cents anyways:
Thanks for the input Ruki. As always, on topic comments are always welcome.
1. Dahl's motivations right now feel kind of weak for a main block antagonist with an end leaving open the possibility of return and I feel could perhaps be molded a bit more towards the idea of showing off the bad/extreme side of white and oppression. I feel like perhaps mixing in a bit of White to go with his motivation in addition to his Black motivation of power could help with this: Perhaps one of the reasons he seeks power is not just for power's sake, but also so he can use it to impose his idea of "order"? The selfishness could still come from the fact he feels only he is fit to produce such "order" or is worthy for it, thus him hoarding power, and you could even make it so that some of this develope from his conquest to Ormos to begin with (Originally using the order just as a sham but over time coming to believe it is also his duty to impose order with his power or it being what he selfishly desires to DO with that power). This could also mix in some Blue by the fact that his order seems to particularly dislike various emotions judging from the Personality, though as Blue is his third color (Mostly there due to artifice) it would be downplayed (Hence his severe restriction of knowledge).
Most "bad guys" main motivation is power. Isn't that what ultimately motivates Nicol Bolas? I'm not nearly as knowledgeable about Magic lore as many on this site though, so please forgive me if that statement sounds naïve. I'm all for trying to hone Dahl's motivations though. At one point I was considering the idea that he was trying to build whatever device he got in trouble for on his home plane, so that he could then return there to exact revenge, but I'm not sure that is necessary.
Everyone keeps wanting to downplay (or eliminate) the blue in Dahl. I'm starting to think I'm crazy, but I see blue as Dahl's central color. While Dahl's motivations (emotions) are black, his intellect (mind) is blue. He is very intelligent, and equally as manipulative. While his goal is power, his means are very well thought out, they are cold and calculated. I also see his intellect being what drives him towards artifacts. He has always been tinkering to develop devices to help give him an edge. I've always pictured Dahl as being able to see through the eyes of his Drones, because he is magicly linked to them with his mind. Ultimately, it's the blue in him that makes him realize that white means are his best chance to control Ormos (I see this color-shift in Dahl as being a blue ability also). I wish I could do a better job of explain the way I see Dahl. Does any of what I'm saying make sense? BTW, I think that we should consider Dahl a very powerful artificer. More powerful than Tezzeret. Although he was quite young when his spark ignited, so he didn't begin to grow into that power until after he arrived on Ormos.
2. Tezzeret seems like more trouble than he is worth here, but I do feel that perhaps involving someone or something related to a big Planeswalker would fit, because it seems likely that with forces like Nicol Bolas, Ugin, Sorin Markov etc in the universe someone would notice a Plane that they cannot get in. One idea would be, since there's SOME level of ambiguity to if the Infinite Consortium exists + Nicol Bolas could make a new one anyway given he's Nicol Bolas (It was just that the Ravnica one is the only KNOWN cell left), that a new member of the Infinite Consortium could be investigating.
We've already discussed the Tezzeret idea at length. It would take something really compelling to make me want to revisit it. I continue to think he isn't worth the hassle.
While not related to anyone large I can actually see Tamiyo slotting in easily: She travels a lot to try and find new knowledge, so the odds of her coming across a remote plane like Ormos would not be unreasonable, the idea of there being a Plane she cannot enter would both agitate and intrigue her and then when the Network goes down, she rushes in to get the knowledge the Plane holds (and would work as a counterpart to Dahl's censoring of information). I bring this up because IIRC someone mentioned Tamiyo as an option.
I still like Tamiyo, although I have no further ideas on this at this point.
"one that visited Ormos long ago but Father Dahl erased every trace of his/her visit." This is a fun idea but I am not sure it works because Dahl artifically extends his lifespawn so Planeswalkers who visited it back then are, for the most part, probably dead. If this was done they would probably need to be a big character due to them still being alive over such a long period of time.
I forgot about this idea. It might be worth revisiting. I've kind of rethought the Dahl long-life thing a bit since I've re-read 1984. Although I still think we should follow through with the idea, I don't think we need to go crazy with it. In 1984, the Party managed to set up a society very close to the one I'm envisioning in about 30ish years. With magic introduced into the equation, I think that process could be cut down even more. Also, I'm thinking Dahl was rather young when he first got to Ormos.
3. Is Father Dahl a human? I assume so, which works fine, but I wanted to ask. I bring this up because a secondary option is that Dahl is a species not native to Ormos and uses his unique appearance or whatnot to help with his claims of divinity (I am made in the image of the divine/I am the divine, from which no others are like me). If this is so then we could have one of the PWers who comes in later be the same species to further break his facade, but that may be too coincidental.
I've always pictured Dahl as Human. It's part of the reason he ends up with the mostly Human clerics. I've also kind of pictured the non-Human species of Ormos as being treated as second class citizens (proles (short for proletarians) is what they call them in 1984). Although they are not formed in the image of Dahl, they are "of his mind" none the less. Your idea is a good one, but I would prefer to stick with were we are on this one.
4. If you begin with Brainwash in Set 1 with -1/-1 counters and then do +1/+1s in the second set, you may have difficulties because you basically cannot reference Brainwash in the 2nd set (Unless you entirely ignore no different +s/-s in the same set as suggested but since this split was designed to get around it anyway) because there can't be BRainwash in the set and referencing Brainwashing in a set with no Brainwash cards would be very confusing.
Yes. If we do indeed do this (I want to), we wouldn't be able to have brainwash in the second set. That seems ok though, as the Brotherhood's grasp on the minds of the people is slipping, and ultimately destroyed in the second block. I'm wondering if we start to see the black side of Dahl (and thus the Brotherhood) start to come out a bit more? Just a thought.
5. Some thoughts on if you guys wanted to have a returning mechanic in the Rebel section
Convoke: Convoke could help show the idea of Rebels working together to break the yolk of oppression, though amusingly with different interp it also works as a Brotherhood mechanic. Kinda eh as an idea.
Exalted: Kind of a weird idea, but by focusing on attacking alone you are giving the idea of "individuality", and the idea of a single person rising to fight against the unthinking masses that oppose them. Exalted has some issue with not being Red but since it has appeared in every color except Red and there's nothing inherently anti-Red about it, it could easily be stretched into it, or only seen on Rebel cards that are non-Red.
Heroic: This was just used admittedly, but if we ignore that, it focuses on boosting a single creature (Individuality) vs. the masses, the name certainly fits a Rebel theme who are throwing off the yolk of oppression and it kind of works as a fun opposite to Detain and Implants (They target something to bring it down. The rebels target things to raise them up.)
These all make some sense, but I'm not sure we need another returning mechanic. We'll see.
6. I would not use Indignant/Indignation because it directly counters both of Ormos' keywords, Detain and Implants, since AFAIK they both target and get stopped, which would create a very warped Limited enviroment and just plain be weird flavor-wise to me.
I still really like indignation (which I am now calling defiant), but it would seem I'm the only one. I want to say though, it doesn't stop anything, it only punishes people for targeting your stuff. It's built in CA. I think it sets up interesting decisions for the person sitting across from it. Do you deal with the threat first, allowing the defiant ability to trigger without even dealing with it? Or do you deal with the defiant creature first (which still triggers the defiant ability), allowing the threat to come at you one more turn? Defiant is just Thunderbreak Regent applied to all creatures. Anyway, as I said, I seem to be the only one that likes it, so I've resigned myself to the fact that we will not use it. That's ok though, in a collaboration, it shouldn't be expected that one will get everything one wants. It's to be expected.
7. Back to the story for a moment, something like the Isolating Network probably needs a concrete reason for existing, why is Dahl able to make this thing that can keep PWers out when there's many more powerful people who cannot, even when it'd be beneficial for them? Something that might help this is if maybe there's something special about Ormos that allows it to be constructed, which helped Dahl choose Ormos over different planes. It could also add a fun story element for the second set: What if the Rebels are able to commandeer it/part of this source and turn it to their own ends? This could also be something non-core PWers would be interested in.
I think his desire to hide from those seeking him, combined with his desire to keep anyone from potentially breaking his hold over the citizens of Ormos, are enough motivation for him to want to build the Isolation Network. As far as why he can build it, I think this could be where the idea that Dahl is an extremely powerful artificer might come in. It is only he that can make this network. This is actually only me thinking aloud really. The idea that there is some substance (think etherium) on Ormos that Dahl covets is an interesting idea. I can picture Goblins slaving away to mine it.
8. I'd be interested in how the general gameplay of the set will work with the ideas of oppression, fighting it, feeling like the oppressor or the opressed etc. There's mechanics here but I do wonder if there's any more specifics in mind for how to create the enviroment you want.
I'm interested to see how it work out too.
(Unrelatedly, I kept accidentally spelling Ormos as Oromos. Whoops!)
EDIT: Also, a question. Why is it Dahl's home plane has enough/the ability to get Planeswalkers to hunt him down anyway? Did there just happen to be a bunch there or?
This I'm not sure about. Is it that far-fetched? Perhaps we can have them send only Friegh. Would that make more sense? Maybe we could make Dahl originate from a plane that is a major hub in the multiverse, therefor it attracts many planeswalkers. Is that even possible?
BTW, I didn't mean to side track people by making cards for the block. It's just that I have to make at least one card a day for the DCC, and Ormos is pretty much dominating the card-making section of my mind right now.
Edit: In a last ditch effort to try to get people to come around on defiant, here's a couple of examples (if I've posted these already, please forgive me, I think I'm trying to juggle a bit too much right now )....
Rebellious Recruit
Creature – Elf Rebel (U) Defiant – Whenever a creature you control becomes the target of a spell or ability an opponent controls, look at the top card of your library. If it’s a creature card, you may reveal it and put it into your hand. “Every time the Brotherhood attempts to tighten its grasp, they make my job that much easier.”
2/2
Rebellious Firemage
Creature – Viashino Rebel Wizard (R)
First strike, haste Defiant – Whenever a creature you control becomes the target of a spell or ability an opponent contols, Rebellious Firemage deals 2 damage to that spell or ability’s controller.
3/3
Elvish Dissident
Creature - Elf Rebel (U) Defiant - Whenever a creature you control becomes the target of a spell or ability an opponent controls, put a 1/1 green Elf rebel creature token onto the battelfield. The Elves were among the first to join the rebellion.
3/2
Oldworld Healer
Creature - Human Rebel Cleric (C)
Defender Defiant - Whenever a creature you control becomes the target of a spell or ability an opponent controls, you may gain 2 life.
0/3
Rebellion Mind Protector
Creature - Vedalken Wizard (R) Defiant - Whenever a creature you control becomes the target of a spell or ability an opponent controls, you may pay . If you do, counter that spell unless its controller pays . As a former member of the Brotherhood, Yintar knew how to counter their tactics as well as anybody in the rebellion.
2/4
Cardname
Creature - Elf Rebel Warrior
Hexproof Defiant - Whenever a creature you control becomes the target of a spell or ability an opponent controls. Put a +1/+1 counter on ~ .
2/2
BTW, at this point, I see this ability in the second set anyway. As is indicated by my use of +1/+1 counters on the last one. This ability shows how the rebels are now openly defying the Brotherhood. Also, these cards are just supposed to be examples, I have not spent any time fine tuning them.
Edit: I accidently forgot to delete "you may pay " form my cut and past job on the last card. I've now fixed that.
(22 Total) - October 2014; December 2014; January 2015; April 2015; June 2015; August 2015; September 2015; November 2015; December 2015(T); January 2016; March 2016(T); April 2016; June 2016; October 2016; December 2016(T); February 2017; April 2017; December 2017; November 2018(T); January 2019; April 2019; June 2019
(8 Total) - May 2015; May 2016; June 2016; August 2016; October 2016; December 2016; October 2017; May 2019
(7 Total) - September 2015; October 2015; January 2016; March 2016; April 2016; July 2016(T); March 2019(T)
It looks like we're really on the same wavelength on everything except for indignation/defiant, which I'm still open to try in playtest anyway. Maybe actually playing with it will change my mind on it.
Brainwash not being in the second set makes a lot of sense, but we must be aware it means we still have Implants and brainwash is the mechanic the Brotherhood loses. I'm perfectly ok with that.
I think we need at least one or two more planeswalkers Dahl's homeplane government sent after him. I wouldn't want him to be completely free when he planeswalkes away at the end of this block. I think the perfect number of planeswalkers chasing him is three, of which one is Freigh. Three planeswalkers can easily be at the same time on a plane, just consider how the Eldrazi have been freed, or how many planeswalkers are on Zendikar right now! The Isolation Network (now official name as it's the one you are using, the Isolating vs Isolation Network thing has gone on long enough) being created by Dahl to protect himself from them is a great idea. The fact that it also helps establishing his image as a god is just a nice bonus to him, but not the main purpose he created the Network.
Dahl is and definitely needs to be blue. No doubt about that. His artificer side would already be enough to justify it.
The planeswalker visiting in the past was my own idea, but I don't think we need it anymore. The 2/3 planeswalker split we have right now is perfect for a double large block. There's no need to do this anymore.
I definitely need to update the blog. I'll do it first thing tomorrow.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
MCC - Winner (6): Oct 2014, Apr Nov 2017, Jan 2018, Apr Jun 2019 || Host (15): Dec 2014, Apr Jul Aug Dec 2015, Mar Jul Aug Oct 2016, Feb Jul 2017, Jun Nov 2018, Feb Jul 2019 (last one here) || Judge (34): every month from Nov 2014 to Nov 2016 except Oct 2015, every month from Feb to Jul 2017 except Apr 2017, then Oct 2017, May Jun Nov 2018, Feb Jul 2019 (last one here) CCL - Winner (3): Jul 2016 (tied with Flatline), May 2017, Jul 2019 (last one here) || Host (5): Feb 2015, Mar Apr May Jun 2016 DCC - Winner (1): Mar 2015 (tied with Piar) || Host (3): May Oct 2015, Jan 2016
• The two public custom sets I've been part a part of the design team for: "Brotherhood of Ormos" - Blog post with all info - set thread - design skeleton / card list || "Extinctia: Homo Evanuit" - Blog post with all info - set thread - card list spreadsheet
• "The Lion's Lair", my article series about MTG and custom card design in particular. Latest article here. Here is the article index.Rather outdated by now, and based on the old MCC rubric, but I'm leaving this here for anybody that might be interested anyway.
• My only public attempt at being a writer: the story of my Leonin custom planeswalker Jeff Lionheart. (I have a very big one that I'm working on right now but that's private for now, and I don't know if I will ever actually publish it, and I also have ideas for multiple future ones, including one where I'm going to reprise Jeff.)
"Most "bad guys" main motivation is power. Isn't that what ultimately motivates Nicol Bolas? I'm not nearly as knowledgeable about Magic lore as many on this site though, so please forgive me if that statement sounds naïve. I'm all for trying to hone Dahl's motivations though. At one point I was considering the idea that he was trying to build whatever device he got in trouble for on his home plane, so that he could then return there to exact revenge, but I'm not sure that is necessary. "
Bolas is motivated by power BUT
1. I don't like Nicol Bolas as a villian (he's not very well written), but perhaps more importantly
2. He has specific motivations as to the power he is trying to get. Nicol Bolas doesn't just want any power, he wants to be the Godwalker he once was and rule over others. This gives him a motivation that feels a bit less general than just "any power". Note that Bolas' motivation is not defined as power until he loses that power.
While many minor antagonists have merely a lust for power, many of the larger ones even in the block have additional motivations on top of it, or additional things that motivate their lust for power. Xenagos found a nihilistic outlook in how small Theros was and goes from there. The Eldrazi are endlessly hungry monstrosities who feast on planes who have a large eldritch flair. The Phyrexians have a desire to upgrade and improve upon life, with different colors in New Phyrexia offering new twists on it. Yawgmoth too had ambitions of power but that was combined with a purpose for why, to an extent anyway, and a lust for the power that escaped him: Planeswalking. It is less than a lust for power is a /bad/ motivation as much as, usually, you want a bit more from someone who will be a large scale villian.
"Everyone keeps wanting to downplay (or eliminate) the blue in Dahl. I'm starting to think I'm crazy, but I see blue as Dahl's central color. While Dahl's motivations (emotions) are black, his intellect (mind) is blue. He is very intelligent, and equally as manipulative. While his goal is power, his means are very well thought out, they are cold and calculated. I also see his intellect being what drives him towards artifacts. He has always been tinkering to develop devices to help give him an edge. I've always pictured Dahl as being able to see through the eyes of his Drones, because he is magicly linked to them with his mind. Ultimately, it's the blue in him that makes him realize that white means are his best chance to control Ormos (I see this color-shift in Dahl as being a blue ability also). I wish I could do a better job of explain the way I see Dahl. Does any of what I'm saying make sense? BTW, I think that we should consider Dahl a very powerful artificer. More powerful than Tezzeret. Although he was quite young when his spark ignited, so he didn't begin to grow into that power until after he arrived on Ormos. "
I would say the reason for this is because the Ormos block feels like it has a large focus on the Brotherhood he creates, which has a large outward emphasis on his White and Black coloring, making the Blue color not as prominent outwardly. I can see how his intellect and such would give him blue coloring, I'd say things like him seeing white as a tool doesn't necessarily mean blue though: Black is perfectly able to see White things as a means to an end. I would say his blue primarily comes from his artifice and intelligence thereof and to a lesser extent his planning.
"We've already discussed the Tezzeret idea at length. It would take something really compelling to make me want to revisit it. I continue to think he isn't worth the hassle."
I was mostly saying I agree that Tezzeret is a bad idea (but that in theory a new char could work if decided).
"I forgot about this idea. It might be worth revisiting. I've kind of rethought the Dahl long-life thing a bit since I've re-read 1984. Although I still think we should follow through with the idea, I don't think we need to go crazy with it. In 1984, the Party managed to set up a society very close to the one I'm envisioning in about 30ish years. With magic introduced into the equation, I think that process could be cut down even more. Also, I'm thinking Dahl was rather young when he first got to Ormos. "
I think it would be best to see if you can remove the Dahl long life thing because it feels somewhat out of place and would fit more with how Neowalkers are portrayed. It might be fun to turn the concept into a card though of Dahl trying to actually make something to extend his life ("I don't want the enjoyment of my power to end so soon"): Maybe an Implant that siphons life away while the creature is controlled?
"I've always pictured Dahl as Human. It's part of the reason he ends up with the mostly Human clerics. I've also kind of pictured the non-Human species of Ormos as being treated as second class citizens (proles (short for proletarians) is what they call them in 1984). Although they are not formed in the image of Dahl, they are "of his mind" none the less. Your idea is a good one, but I would prefer to stick with were we are on this one. "
Sounds fine to me.
"Yes. If we do indeed do this (I want to), we wouldn't be able to have brainwash in the second set. That seems ok though, as the Brotherhood's grasp on the minds of the people is slipping, and ultimately destroyed in the second block. I'm wondering if we start to see the black side of Dahl (and thus the Brotherhood) start to come out a bit more? Just a thought."
I think that, if the Brotherhood begins to break down and thus a key part of his White (As White comes a lot from his means to the end), seeing more of his Black and Blue side would be pretty fitting. I do think it feels somewhat odd for Brainwashing to go away completely, since when people are rebelling against you seems like the exact time you would WANT to be brainwashing people.
"I still really like indignation (which I am now calling defiant), but it would seem I'm the only one. I want to say though, it doesn't stop anything, it only punishes people for targeting your stuff. It's built in CA. I think it sets up interesting decisions for the person sitting across from it. Do you deal with the threat first, allowing the defiant ability to trigger without even dealing with it? Or do you deal with the defiant creature first (which still triggers the defiant ability), allowing the threat to come at you one more turn? Defiant is just Thunderbreak Regent applied to all creatures. Anyway, as I said, I seem to be the only one that likes it, so I've resigned myself to the fact that we will not use it. That's ok though, in a collaboration, it shouldn't be expected that one will get everything one wants. It's to be expected."
Personally, I don't think Indignation/Defiant is a bad mechanic at the core, but I think that it should be put in a set where other major mechanics involve things that will trigger it because it is too counter-y. It does set up some interesting suggestions, but it'll also set up a lot of poopy feelings when you draft that sick Brainwash + Detain deck and then you can't keep a brainwashed Defiant guy out/Detain it a lot because otherwise they'll just use the effect forever. I also feel a lot of the descisions would be a bit binary if the targetting is heavy in the set. It IS just Thunderbreak Regent but at the same time, do you want enough Thunderbreak Regents in a block to warrant Keywording it?
A few cards with the effect written out might be better, I think, since of course some counters/checks to mechanics are good, and it could be especially fun for a high ranking rebel card.
"I think his desire to hide from those seeking him, combined with his desire to keep anyone from potentially breaking his hold over the citizens of Ormos, are enough motivation for him to want to build the Isolation Network. As far as why he can build it, I think this could be where the idea that Dahl is an extremely powerful artificer might come in. It is only he that can make this network. This is actually only me thinking aloud really. The idea that there is some substance (think etherium) on Ormos that Dahl covets is an interesting idea. I can picture Goblins slaving away to mine it."
I think his motivations for it are fine, I mostly think that his means shouldn't just be because he's a great artificier, since that offers up a fair amount of questions both for after (Can't Dahl just go somewhere else and make an Isolation Network to hide away after they kick his ass on Ormos?) and other characters (Surely Dahl isn't the only artificier who is that powerful, especially since nothing like this was around even with Oldwalkers IIRC). Personally I like the idea that there is some Etherium-like substance on Ormos that he craves so that he can build the Isolation Network and maybe help him with other stuff (Like making integrated chips for implants or whatnot).
It also could be a good idea to work with the Workcamps: They're sentenced to mine the very materials that keep them imprisoned! I remember there was a suggestion to keep the Network bases at camps and if so that could even be justification, keeping them nearby to process the materials that are mined out by slaves and undesirables. It's a good mental image anyway.
"This I'm not sure about. Is it that far-fetched? Perhaps we can have them send only Friegh. Would that make more sense? Maybe we could make Dahl originate from a plane that is a major hub in the multiverse, therefor it attracts many planeswalkers. Is that even possible?"
I think it might be more fun if they only send Freigh, in part because it might make the rivalry a bit more close than rather her being one hunter of many ("You've hunted me for years...and yet you'll die without even touching me. How tragic."). I mostly point it out because it seems rare that planes have many Planeswalkers who are all active and from the plane at once while visiting Planeswalkers might not even care about such an event depending on who they are: Even blocks usually only have like 5 PWers in them, despite there being major events, so either a major hub plane or Freigh alone might work better. (If the first is the case, he could be from a part of Dominaria as it is the "Nexus of the Multiverse"?)
EDIT: Just for clarity's sake, I'm not saying Dahl needs like a million motivations, but even something like wanting to get back some at his home plane and maybe Freigh being a bit more personal of a nemesis due to being his lone hunter makes him feel more enriched.
It is getting rather late, so for now I will only respond to say, I agree with all of bravelion's last post, which answers some of Ruki's.
But for now, I mostly want to point out that I posted a bunch of example cards for defiant in my last post while you guys were posting. Please check them out when you get the chance, I didn't take much time developing them, so please bare that in mind. @Lion, if you still don't like the idea after looking at them, I won't bring it up any further. I'm fine with that decision, I just wanted one last chance to see if could change your mind. To be honest, I'm not in love with it to the point where I wouldn't want to change it myself if someone has a better idea. I'd be curious to hear Indighost's thoughts on the ability.
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Somehow I missed Bravelion's post before so I just wanted to throw some brief things that way.
"1. I can see Dahl wanting to impose his own idea of order and I think it may be easily compatible with what we already have. I'd like to hear from Flatline about this though, as Dahl is mostly his creation."
Adding this onto Flatline's talk about Dahl's character, perhaps this goal could be Blue-oriented, considering the brainwashing perhaps trying to remove things like emotions? It might help give a fuller feeling mix of Black motivations, White means and Blue motivations/character. Just a thought.
"I like your way to involve Tamiyo. I thought her intention was to continue studying Innistrad's moon, but we can say that this is just another branch of her studies. Flatline?"
Glad you liked it! Depending on when we would say Ormos theoritically happens, we could also just say that Tamiyo has finished her studies. Given Tamiyo is said to travel planes for knowledge she could also easily have stepped away from it for the moment or whatnot as well.
"Dahl is and definitely needs to be blue. No doubt about that. His artificer side would already be enough to justify it."
Definitely.
"Three planeswalkers can easily be at the same time on a plane, just consider how the Eldrazi have been freed, or how many planeswalkers are on Zendikar right now!"
To be fair, and I could be wrong, story-wise weren't all the PWers on Zendikar called there (Such as by Gideon and Ugin)? Not saying that the idea doesn't work but pointing that out. The Eldrazi being freed involved Nicol Bolas intentionally manipulating at least one of the Planeswalkers there. You can probably get away with multiple PWers after him but I think it might make for a better story to have only one or two to give a further connection between Dahl and those who hunt him (Maybe the 2nd could be someone who pops up after Freigh dies and in Block 2 with the Isolation Network down?).
"I definitely need to update the blog. I'll do it first thing tomorrow."
I love brainwash, and I think the change from -1/-1 counters to +1/+1 counters is also really cool. I don't like defiant because of the following reasons:
1: It leads to uninteractive play. Players don't want to be punished for interacting with their opponent't stuff - a lot of new players will treat defiant like hexproof.
2: A lot of the time, defiant is irrelevant. When an opponent targets a card like Rebellious Firemage, the firemage would most likely die, and while the damage is a tax, it is irrelevant a lot of the time. If we use defiant, we should take into account that most of the things that will trigger defiant will cause the creature to die, so the bonus needs to compensate for that by creating more creatures or providing card advantage of some sort - effects than can be problematic at the common level.
3: It leads to a lot of feel-bad moments. When i'm at 3 life with a removal spell in hand, I might have to use it when you have a defiant guy, but you still get your token or card or damage and I probably lose anyway. It really dosen't lend itself well to situations when one of the players is behind, bcause even if that player draws an answer to one of your creatures, he's still probably behind.
4: It can be hard to enable. In limited, creatures mainly die in combat, and there are much less removal spells than in an average constructed deck. True, we have detain and implat, which might make this problem easier to handle, but I can still see a lot of games when defiand will basically be a blank.
5: For defiant to be effective, you generally want pretty big creatures. Most of the time, your opponent won't target your wimpy 2/2 and trigger defiant. for an opponent to use up an ability, or better yet, a card, on your guy, it needs to be pretty threatening. It dosen't really work in small creaure decks - which looks like what the rebels want to be doing.
BTW, at this point, I see this ability in the second set anyway.
So let's just discuss about it later, when we actually come to the second set. It could be the additional mechanic the Rebels get in the second set. Anyway, only playing with it will clear my doubts. I share most of scrad's thoughts in the post right above this one.
About the planeswalkers chasing Dahl, I don't like Dahl having things completely solved for him with Freigh dying without even touching him. I picture the chase going on in a possible future block, and for that to be the case at least one more planeswalker has to still be chasing him. For some reason, having three planeswalkers total chasing him appeals to me. And I don't mean that ALL three come from Dahl's homeplane, they just need to be there when his spark ignites and he goes away. We don't even say who the others are in this block. We could even say there are others without saying exactly how many. I also don't like one of those showing up in the second set. I think it would pull focus away from the Rebellion, that is supposed to be the main focus of the second set.
Blog update and updated timeline proposal coming later tonight. I think the timeline is just too long and needs to be shortened to not have Dahl extending his own life span via chip implants. Flatline's comments about magic allowing him to establish his regime quicker reinforced that impression I was already having.
EDIT: The blog has just been updated. Please check the revised timeline in the flavor page. I realized that 137-F doesn't need to be born at time zero, but she can be born before without any problem. The only condition is that the Workcamps already exist. That and considering increments smaller than a year allowed me to bring the whole timeline from almost 50 years to 25 years.
MCC - Winner (6): Oct 2014, Apr Nov 2017, Jan 2018, Apr Jun 2019 || Host (15): Dec 2014, Apr Jul Aug Dec 2015, Mar Jul Aug Oct 2016, Feb Jul 2017, Jun Nov 2018, Feb Jul 2019 (last one here) || Judge (34): every month from Nov 2014 to Nov 2016 except Oct 2015, every month from Feb to Jul 2017 except Apr 2017, then Oct 2017, May Jun Nov 2018, Feb Jul 2019 (last one here) CCL - Winner (3): Jul 2016 (tied with Flatline), May 2017, Jul 2019 (last one here) || Host (5): Feb 2015, Mar Apr May Jun 2016 DCC - Winner (1): Mar 2015 (tied with Piar) || Host (3): May Oct 2015, Jan 2016
• The two public custom sets I've been part a part of the design team for: "Brotherhood of Ormos" - Blog post with all info - set thread - design skeleton / card list || "Extinctia: Homo Evanuit" - Blog post with all info - set thread - card list spreadsheet
• "The Lion's Lair", my article series about MTG and custom card design in particular. Latest article here. Here is the article index.Rather outdated by now, and based on the old MCC rubric, but I'm leaving this here for anybody that might be interested anyway.
• My only public attempt at being a writer: the story of my Leonin custom planeswalker Jeff Lionheart. (I have a very big one that I'm working on right now but that's private for now, and I don't know if I will ever actually publish it, and I also have ideas for multiple future ones, including one where I'm going to reprise Jeff.)
Will we use the five pivotal story moments thing that wizards are doing from now on? If so, what are those moments and how can we implement them mechanically?
I just read lion's blog update, and as usual, it's great! I still need to take a little more time to wrap my head around the timeline, but after the first reading, it looks a lot better than the original one (the timeline I mean). The only thing I've been seeing a little differently is when Freigh gets captured. I've always envisioned this happening during the block. I figured there would be a Brotherhood related card representing her capture, and then a Rebellion related card that would show her and 137'-F's escape (and of course one showing the fateful destruction of the last part of the Isolation Network). I guess I don't see her being in the Correction Camp for that long. I think the brotherhood would want to "correct" her as quickly as possible. She is the first real threat Dahl has faced. He would want to squash her.
BTW, I totally envision a legendary cycle of the heads of the various Ministries. Each one would be mono-colored, and would be the main race for that particular sect. I kinda think they should all have the title "Big Brother", although hat would be another pretty blatant rip off 1984, so I'm not sure it's necessary.
For various reasons, I'm going to wait until tomorrow to say much more, although I do have one more thing. I think we should change the name of Workcamp78 to Workcamp83 in honor of all bravelion's hard work.
Edit: One morer thing ...I'm very surprised, and equally pleased that people like the idea of switching from -1/-1 counters in the first set to +1/+1 counters in the second. I really thought people would shoot that idea down. Shows what I know.
Edit2: I also feel I should say that I am over defiant. If nobody else likes it, I see no reason to discuss it any more. I'm sure we'll come up with something better anyway.
(22 Total) - October 2014; December 2014; January 2015; April 2015; June 2015; August 2015; September 2015; November 2015; December 2015(T); January 2016; March 2016(T); April 2016; June 2016; October 2016; December 2016(T); February 2017; April 2017; December 2017; November 2018(T); January 2019; April 2019; June 2019
(8 Total) - May 2015; May 2016; June 2016; August 2016; October 2016; December 2016; October 2017; May 2019
(7 Total) - September 2015; October 2015; January 2016; March 2016; April 2016; July 2016(T); March 2019(T)
What about "Elder Brother" of "Elder One" for the heads of the ministries?
I can think of a cycle that looks like this:
Elder Brother A2WW
Legendary Creature - Human Cleric (R)
Vigilance
Whenever CARDNAME enters the battlefield or attacks, you may put a -1/-1 counter on any number of target detained creatures. Those creatures becomes brainwashed.
2/3
Elder Brother B2UU
Legendary Creature - Vedalken Wizard (R)
Prowess
Whenever CARDNAME enters the battlefield or attacks, You may detain target creature with power less than or equal to CARDNAME's power.
2/3
Elder Brother C2BB
Legendary Creature - Rattillion Rogue
Menace
Whenever CARDNAME enters the battlefield or attacks, you may destroy target creature with a -1/-1 counter on it.
2/3
Elder Brother D2RR
Legendary Creature - Viashino Artificer
First Strike
Whenever CARDNAME enters the battlefield or attacks, you may sacrifice an artifact. If you do, CARDNAME deals 2 Damage to target player. If the artifact was equipped to a creature, CARDNAME deals 3 damage to that creature instead.
3/2
Elder Brother E2GG
Legendary Creature - Elf Shaman
Trample
Whenever CARDNAME enters the battlefield or attacks, you may put any number of counters on target creature onto another target creature.
3/2
I'm aware that wer'e not in the design part yet, but these are just rough sketches. I would assumes that white bleeds into -1/-1 counter themes in this set, hence the white brother's design. I would like to know if any of these ideas are good and doable.
Although I like these ideas, they aren't quite as impressive/oppressive as I see them being. For example I was thinking of something like this for white....
Javal, Minister of Order
Legendary Creature - Human Cleric
Vigilance
Other creatures you control have base power and toughness 2/2.
Creatures your opponents control have base power and toughness 1/1. "In order for some to have more, it is necessary that others have less. This is the way the Father intended it."
4/4
This might need some work, but it's more along the lines of what I'm thinking about. Either way, I think we (me in particular, I totally started it ) should try to refrain from card making for now. BTW, I really like your Elder Brother idea (it definitely needs brother in it, all citizens of Ormos are brother something or sister something, we need ways to differentiate the more powerful members). It's the perfect solution to what we call Dahl's inner circle.
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(8 Total) - May 2015; May 2016; June 2016; August 2016; October 2016; December 2016; October 2017; May 2019
(7 Total) - September 2015; October 2015; January 2016; March 2016; April 2016; July 2016(T); March 2019(T)
Are they supposed to be rare or mythic? In my version, they were rare, and thus less impressive. I cold definitely see Javal as mythic though. If he is, I understand the concern.
EDIT: If they are mythic, it kinda limits our other mythics, as it basically fills the white slots and leaves us with eight more mythics. I could see a split like this:
3 White mythics (Including 137-F)
2 Blue Mythics
2 Black
2 Red
2 Green
Father Dahl (WUB)
Freigh (RG)
1 Multicolored
1 Artifact/Land
The problem is that in this configuration, white has 4 mythics with Father Dahl. I'm not sure this is a problem, because white is, after all, the most important color in the set and a central color both for the rebellion and for the brotherhood, but it still feels like a bit too much.
Javal would need to be mythic yes. Maybe we don't want to have 5 mythics tied up here? In that case we may want to go with something more along the lines of what you're suggesting. But I am once again breaking my new personla rule of not making/discussing cards yet.
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Jesus H Christ! So much text. Flatline you were talking about a recuit mechanic that cared about nontoken creatures etb, correct? Yes its similar to the revealed rally, but rally only cares about allies, so I think we can do recruit. Just my thoughts.
Jesus H Christ! So much text. Flatline you were talking about a recuit mechanic that cared about nontoken creatures etb, correct? Yes its similar to the revealed rally, but rally only cares about allies, so I think we can do recruit. Just my thoughts.
For reference, this is the mechanic along with my thoughts.
Recruit - Whenever another nontoken creature enters the battlefield under your control, <effect>.
Yes it's similar to rally, but I don't think that's too much of a problem, as it's heavily associated with Allies and we don't have any here. It also only triggers when another creature etb and not when the creature itself etb, unlike normal etb abilities and rally, and I say we keep it this way to differentiate from both of those.
The flavor is very good in my opinion, and we need simple mechanics to go with Implants and brainwash, which are more on the complex side. I'd be glad to use this as what I call the "completely unknown" mechanic for the Rebels in my last blog update.
Lawbreak
I'm currently working on a few ideas for the "breaking the law" mechanic for the Rebels, and here they are.
My thought process was this: Rebels want to break the law. But what is "the law" in Magic? The obvious thing is enchantments, but having a keyword only interact with those looks narrow. I wanted to make the mechanic broader, so I though about "noncreature permanents", but that includes lands and planeswalkers and it also feels like it overlaps with prowess (now evergreen) in design space. I don't want to keyword land destruction, and planeswalker destruction also looks like a problem: on a few single cards it's ok, like on Hero's Downfall or Ruinous Path (oh, why can't it be an instant?), but as a whole mechanics it's not. So in the end I went back to just "artifacts and enchantments", remembering we have Implants here and there was already talk of having just a bit more artifacts than the average set. So I went with that as the "law". But what about breaking? Obviously that means destruction, but does it have to? Maybe there are some other ways to represent that. Anyway, it's obvious (for flavor) that it should work against the opponent's "law", not your own. I propose the three best options coming out of my brainstorming.
---
First version:
Lawbreak (Whenever this creature attacks, it gets +1/+1 until end of turn for each artifact or enchantment defending player controls.)
This requires a little more than average artifacts (Dahl's devices: drones, chips, etc...) and enchantments (flavorfully laws even without the Law subtype mentioned a long time ago) in the set.
In red it makes sense as enchantment hatred. Red is not allowed to destroy enchantments, but it's allowed to hate them. In green and white it already makes sense anyway.
The only potential problem I see is a developmental one vs Affinity decks in Modern, but it's only really a problem on creatures with trample or that can't be blocked, and we just have to make sure such creatures cost enough mana. The others can still be chump blocked and anyway lawbreak works only on offense.
Problem: this wants your opponent to have a lot of artifact/enchantments, while the flavor implies the creature wants to destroy them. But it could also be seen as "the more laws I have to break, the stronger I have to be to fight them". Mechanically it seems to fit though: a Brotherhood deck wants laws and their enemies get stronger the more laws the Brotherhood imposes them. Also, a Rebel to the law won't be scared by more laws.
---
Another option is to keyword the Trygon Predator ability to literally "break" the "law" (aka artifacts and enchantments):
Lawbreak (Whenever this creature deals combat damage to a player, you may destroy target artifact or enchantment that player controls.)
I don't think this has any particular developmental problems, except for the fact that it can't be in red (it's enchantment destruction). It can still be in green and white, and red can use recruit and other single cards. The flavor is even better than the first version, as here you actually get to break something. The only thing I have to say against this is that it may actively go against Implants which we also want in the set. But at the contrary, it works wonderfully in flavor if the Brotherhood is oppressing one of your creatures with an Implant: how do you get rid of it? Just have a lawbreaking Rebel on your side! And what if you're the Brotherhood player worried about a lawbreaker coming to break your Implants? Just detain him! Or brainwash him until he dies! This has wonderful synergies with the other mechanical parts of the set. If we go with this version, we'd probably just have to pay attention to how many Implants and lawbreakers we have and their distribution in rarity, but it should be definitely doable. This is the most flavorful version in my opinion, and definitely my own favorite and the one I'd personally choose.
---
My third and final proposal is this:
Lawbreak - Whenever an artifact or enchantment an opponent controls is put into a graveyard from the battlefield, [EFFECT].
An ability word representing a death trigger for artifacts and enchantments (remember "dies" is only used for creatures). This requires other cards to function, and thus is more linear. The flavor is very similar to the second version. The problem here is that this version does nothing by itself.
MCC - Winner (6): Oct 2014, Apr Nov 2017, Jan 2018, Apr Jun 2019 || Host (15): Dec 2014, Apr Jul Aug Dec 2015, Mar Jul Aug Oct 2016, Feb Jul 2017, Jun Nov 2018, Feb Jul 2019 (last one here) || Judge (34): every month from Nov 2014 to Nov 2016 except Oct 2015, every month from Feb to Jul 2017 except Apr 2017, then Oct 2017, May Jun Nov 2018, Feb Jul 2019 (last one here) CCL - Winner (3): Jul 2016 (tied with Flatline), May 2017, Jul 2019 (last one here) || Host (5): Feb 2015, Mar Apr May Jun 2016 DCC - Winner (1): Mar 2015 (tied with Piar) || Host (3): May Oct 2015, Jan 2016
• The two public custom sets I've been part a part of the design team for: "Brotherhood of Ormos" - Blog post with all info - set thread - design skeleton / card list || "Extinctia: Homo Evanuit" - Blog post with all info - set thread - card list spreadsheet
• "The Lion's Lair", my article series about MTG and custom card design in particular. Latest article here. Here is the article index.Rather outdated by now, and based on the old MCC rubric, but I'm leaving this here for anybody that might be interested anyway.
• My only public attempt at being a writer: the story of my Leonin custom planeswalker Jeff Lionheart. (I have a very big one that I'm working on right now but that's private for now, and I don't know if I will ever actually publish it, and I also have ideas for multiple future ones, including one where I'm going to reprise Jeff.)
I think we will need a much higher than normal percentage of artifacts for those mechanics to be useful. Maybe we can make use of colored artifacts to not cause color pie issues and be able to have a much larger artifact amount than usual without a huge part of the set being colorless when we want to emphasize colors (Especially white.)
Another idea to hate on artifacts or enchantments (the "law") in a broader way:
Outlaw (Whenever this creature deals combat damage to a player, that player reveals the top card of his or her library. If it's a noncreature card, exile it and this creature deals 1 damage to that player.)
which could also be worded with a little functional change as:
Outlaw (Whenever this creature attacks and isn't blocked, defending player reveals the top card of his or her library. If it's a noncreature card, exile it and this creature gets +1/+1 until end of turn.)
EDIT: I just realized this is too similar to ingest, I must have been subconsciously inspired by BFZ spoilers. The revealed card can be a random card from defending player's hand, or it may be a check if defending player controls a nonland noncreature permanent. I'm not coming to an end, am I?
EDIT 2: Looking for synonyms of "outlaw" in Gatherer for inspiration, I gladly rediscovered Stinkdrinker Bandit, a card I liked to play with at the time. Its triggered ability, with a similar trigger from the last version above, inspired me. Would the following ability be too simple as a keyword?
Outlaw (Whenever this creature attacks and isn't blocked, it gets +1/+1 until end of turn.)
It's kind of a reverse bushido: the creature deals more damage to players than to creatures. The Rebels want to go to the head, they want to "hunt the biggest game"! (M15/Garruk pun totally intended.) It also makes complete sense in all three Naya colors, that are the center of the Rebellion. Maybe I just need to abandon the idea of noncreatures or artifacts/enchantments as "the law". It's now two days that I'm thinking about it and apparently it led me nowhere good...
EDIT 3 (I'm sorry, I'm just writing as ideas come to me): that card also has prowl. What about a prowl variant that always looks for Rebels regardless of the creature's subtypes? Like this:
Rebellion [COST] (You may cast this spell for its rebellion cost if you dealt combat damage to a player this turn with a Rebel.)
Putting this also on Rebel-associated instants, sorceries, artifacts, and enchantments, and also on non-Rebel but still Rebel-associated creatures (kind of those dogs the Rebels use to detect implanted chips):
Chip-Detecting Dog2R
Creature - Hound (C)
When Chip-Detecting Dog enters the battlefield, you may destroy target Equipment.
Rebellion 1R(You may cast this spell for its rebellion cost if you dealt combat damage to a player this turn with a Rebel.)
2/2
It's just an example, I didn't think about costs or balance.
MCC - Winner (6): Oct 2014, Apr Nov 2017, Jan 2018, Apr Jun 2019 || Host (15): Dec 2014, Apr Jul Aug Dec 2015, Mar Jul Aug Oct 2016, Feb Jul 2017, Jun Nov 2018, Feb Jul 2019 (last one here) || Judge (34): every month from Nov 2014 to Nov 2016 except Oct 2015, every month from Feb to Jul 2017 except Apr 2017, then Oct 2017, May Jun Nov 2018, Feb Jul 2019 (last one here) CCL - Winner (3): Jul 2016 (tied with Flatline), May 2017, Jul 2019 (last one here) || Host (5): Feb 2015, Mar Apr May Jun 2016 DCC - Winner (1): Mar 2015 (tied with Piar) || Host (3): May Oct 2015, Jan 2016
• The two public custom sets I've been part a part of the design team for: "Brotherhood of Ormos" - Blog post with all info - set thread - design skeleton / card list || "Extinctia: Homo Evanuit" - Blog post with all info - set thread - card list spreadsheet
• "The Lion's Lair", my article series about MTG and custom card design in particular. Latest article here. Here is the article index.Rather outdated by now, and based on the old MCC rubric, but I'm leaving this here for anybody that might be interested anyway.
• My only public attempt at being a writer: the story of my Leonin custom planeswalker Jeff Lionheart. (I have a very big one that I'm working on right now but that's private for now, and I don't know if I will ever actually publish it, and I also have ideas for multiple future ones, including one where I'm going to reprise Jeff.)
Jesus H Christ! So much text. Flatline you were talking about a recuit mechanic that cared about nontoken creatures etb, correct? Yes its similar to the revealed rally, but rally only cares about allies, so I think we can do recruit. Just my thoughts.
Yes, I was trying not to post in the thread for a day or so to give you some time to catch up. In case people haven't noticed, lion and I are very verbal people. Sorry, but I'm not sure how else to collaborate on a set via the internet.
As far as recruit goes, I'm glad people like it. As far as I'm concerned we can put it in the books exactly as lion has it worded above. I'd say more about it, but lion summed up my thoughts nicely, and it's a pretty self explanatory mechanic that fits the rebels from a flavor standpoint.
As far as lawbreak is concerned, I'm just not sure we're going to have enough artifacts and enchantments in the block to justify it. I like both the reverse bushido outlaw, and rebellion better than than lawbreak for this particular set. I think of the three, I like rebellion best. A friend of mine played a prowl deck when I first started playing Magic, and I always thought it was pretty cool. The only problem I have with it is, like prowl, it probably won't be anything that is played outside of the block that it is intended for. Even more so since rebels are less common than rogues and Goblins. I suppose that might be ok though.
Speaking of making sense outside of block, when we start making card with brainwash, I think most of the card that reference brainwash should actually have brainwash (such as my example card from earlier, Mollification Mage). Cards without brainwash should probably reference -1/-1 counters instead. What I'm trying to say is, a card like "Gain control of target creature with one or more -1/-1 counters on it" works outside of block, whereas a card that reads "Gain control of target brainwashed creature" doesn't. I'm sure you've all already thought of this, but I just wanted to point that out.
I feel like there a million other things I need to respond to right now, but I can't think of them right now, nor do I have time right now. I'll have to post another longwinded post again tonight.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
(22 Total) - October 2014; December 2014; January 2015; April 2015; June 2015; August 2015; September 2015; November 2015; December 2015(T); January 2016; March 2016(T); April 2016; June 2016; October 2016; December 2016(T); February 2017; April 2017; December 2017; November 2018(T); January 2019; April 2019; June 2019
(8 Total) - May 2015; May 2016; June 2016; August 2016; October 2016; December 2016; October 2017; May 2019
(7 Total) - September 2015; October 2015; January 2016; March 2016; April 2016; July 2016(T); March 2019(T)
I like rebellion best. A friend of mine played a prowl deck when I first started playing Magic, and I always thought it was pretty cool. The only problem I have with it is, like prowl, it probably won't be anything that is played outside of the block that it is intended for. Even more so since rebels are less common than rogues and Goblins. I suppose that might be ok though.
"I like it best" as in "It's the best of the bunch, but I'd prefer something else" or as in "I'd be ready to put it in the set"? That's the best I have to offer for now, after two days I've almost given up creating a "break the law" mechanic or something as close as possible. It turns out it's a quite difficult concept to represent, and I didn't expect it.
Anyway, keep in mind it still works with old Rebels (the ones with the "Rebel mechanic") if you want to do some crazy past-present mix. And most of all, they are still perfectly working cards outside of block. You can still cast my Chip-Detecting Dog from above for its normal mana cost of 2R outside of block. The discounted price would just be a bonus for you to do the "block thing". Now, I made an example that is not exactly pushed for constructed and I was aware of it, but say I make a card like this (again, just an unbalanced example):
Rebel Rhino3G
Creature - Rhino (R)
Rebellion 1GG(You may cast this spell for its rebellion cost if you dealt combat damage to a player this turn with a Rebel.)
Trample, hexproof
3/3
This could probably be constructed playable even without rebellion. With it, it's even better. Or even:
Rebel Bolt1R
Instant (C)
Rebellion R(You may cast this spell for its rebellion cost if you dealt combat damage to a player this turn with a Rebel.)
Rebel Bolt deals 3 damage to target creature or player.
This is a Lightning Strike, that is a perfectly playable card by itself. With rebellion, it becomes a Lightning Bolt, a Modern staple.
Speaking of making sense outside of block, when we start making card with brainwash, I think most of the card that reference brainwash should actually have brainwash (such as my example card from earlier, Mollification Mage). Cards without brainwash should probably reference -1/-1 counters instead. What I'm trying to say is, a card like "Gain control of target creature with one or more -1/-1 counters on it" works outside of block, whereas a card that reads "Gain control of target brainwashed creature" doesn't. I'm sure you've all already thought of this, but I just wanted to point that out.
Agreed, most should actually have it themselves. Anyway, I've always thought to use brainwashed as a bonus, such as "Tap target creature. If that creature is brainwashed, gain control of it instead." You still have a base effect that you would get out of block too, but again, if you do the "block thing", the spell is better. I remember reading MaRo a long time ago saying that this is a thing they've done multiple times. In fact, in my example here I was inspired by Dispatch attaching your own example instead of exile. In the end we need effects referencing brainwashed creatures, otherwise what is the "becomes brainwashed" part of brainwash for?
Also, recruit for the Rebels and detain and Implants for the Brotherhood are already 100% backwards-compatible mechanics. Their other mechanics (brainwash and rebellion if we choose it) can be something a little more block-specific. Each block has a few things for itself. Example: BFZ. Devoid, awaken, converge, landfall are perfectly backwards-compatible. Ingest is kind of halfway, it technically is too, but it really needs Processors to take advantage of it, and they are exclusive to BFZ block. Rally is the exact opposite of backwards-compatible: all the creatures that can trigger it are only in original Zendikar and BFZ blocks, and the mechanics does literally nothing in blocks without Allies, which is every other block in Magic history. I think we're in a similar situation right now, so I don't see any real problems.
I feel like there a million other things I need to respond to right now, but I can't think of them right now, nor do I have time right now. I'll have to post another longwinded post again tonight.
MCC - Winner (6): Oct 2014, Apr Nov 2017, Jan 2018, Apr Jun 2019 || Host (15): Dec 2014, Apr Jul Aug Dec 2015, Mar Jul Aug Oct 2016, Feb Jul 2017, Jun Nov 2018, Feb Jul 2019 (last one here) || Judge (34): every month from Nov 2014 to Nov 2016 except Oct 2015, every month from Feb to Jul 2017 except Apr 2017, then Oct 2017, May Jun Nov 2018, Feb Jul 2019 (last one here) CCL - Winner (3): Jul 2016 (tied with Flatline), May 2017, Jul 2019 (last one here) || Host (5): Feb 2015, Mar Apr May Jun 2016 DCC - Winner (1): Mar 2015 (tied with Piar) || Host (3): May Oct 2015, Jan 2016
• The two public custom sets I've been part a part of the design team for: "Brotherhood of Ormos" - Blog post with all info - set thread - design skeleton / card list || "Extinctia: Homo Evanuit" - Blog post with all info - set thread - card list spreadsheet
• "The Lion's Lair", my article series about MTG and custom card design in particular. Latest article here. Here is the article index.Rather outdated by now, and based on the old MCC rubric, but I'm leaving this here for anybody that might be interested anyway.
• My only public attempt at being a writer: the story of my Leonin custom planeswalker Jeff Lionheart. (I have a very big one that I'm working on right now but that's private for now, and I don't know if I will ever actually publish it, and I also have ideas for multiple future ones, including one where I'm going to reprise Jeff.)
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Another thing to note is that blocking Brainwash creatures is pretty difficult, not just because of Brainwashing them but because they wear you down over time with repeated -1/-1 counters. A possible good future card for the rebellion, presumably set 2?, would be a guy with Defender who is immune to Brainwashing (Maybe with flavor text mentioning countermeasures starting to be developed?). This would help allow decks to block Brainwash creatures and not be run over which is probably important for Limited (It wouldn't need to be pushed for Constructed if wanted).
I really liked SHock Therapy's name + flavor which is why I wrote so much on it in the first place, so I certainly agree the name works awesome with it.
EDIT: Another thing to consider, any Instant with non-conditional targetting can be used as a miniature combat trick due to putting a -1/-1 counter on.
It depends if you also want to thank the messenger! I'm no more than that. Anyway, if you're interested, I found the podcast I was thinking about. Reuben and Dan call that concept "anchoring" and talk about it at length in episode 5 and episode 6. Feel free to check those out if you have time and will.
I totally agree. I had also independently thought of that same card, but didn't notice the flavor text. It's really a nice quote for Dahl.
Green has the ability "this creature can't have counters on it" in the color pie, see Melira's Keepers, and it also happens to be one of the central colors for the Rebels. I'd use that as "immunity to brainwashing". Let's keep all of this in mind for when we'll officially design cards.
MCC - Winner (6): Oct 2014, Apr Nov 2017, Jan 2018, Apr Jun 2019 || Host (15): Dec 2014, Apr Jul Aug Dec 2015, Mar Jul Aug Oct 2016, Feb Jul 2017, Jun Nov 2018, Feb Jul 2019 (last one here) || Judge (34): every month from Nov 2014 to Nov 2016 except Oct 2015, every month from Feb to Jul 2017 except Apr 2017, then Oct 2017, May Jun Nov 2018, Feb Jul 2019 (last one here)
CCL - Winner (3): Jul 2016 (tied with Flatline), May 2017, Jul 2019 (last one here) || Host (5): Feb 2015, Mar Apr May Jun 2016
DCC - Winner (1): Mar 2015 (tied with Piar) || Host (3): May Oct 2015, Jan 2016
• The two public custom sets I've been part a part of the design team for:
"Brotherhood of Ormos" - Blog post with all info - set thread - design skeleton / card list || "Extinctia: Homo Evanuit" - Blog post with all info - set thread - card list spreadsheet
• "The Lion's Lair", my article series about MTG and custom card design in particular. Latest article here. Here is the article index. Rather outdated by now, and based on the old MCC rubric, but I'm leaving this here for anybody that might be interested anyway.
• My only public attempt at being a writer: the story of my Leonin custom planeswalker Jeff Lionheart. (I have a very big one that I'm working on right now but that's private for now, and I don't know if I will ever actually publish it, and I also have ideas for multiple future ones, including one where I'm going to reprise Jeff.)
No, absolutely! If you have more, don't refrain from posting. It's just that we're not yet at the point of the process where we design cards, and I wouldn't want to lose the thread of it. That's all!
MCC - Winner (6): Oct 2014, Apr Nov 2017, Jan 2018, Apr Jun 2019 || Host (15): Dec 2014, Apr Jul Aug Dec 2015, Mar Jul Aug Oct 2016, Feb Jul 2017, Jun Nov 2018, Feb Jul 2019 (last one here) || Judge (34): every month from Nov 2014 to Nov 2016 except Oct 2015, every month from Feb to Jul 2017 except Apr 2017, then Oct 2017, May Jun Nov 2018, Feb Jul 2019 (last one here)
CCL - Winner (3): Jul 2016 (tied with Flatline), May 2017, Jul 2019 (last one here) || Host (5): Feb 2015, Mar Apr May Jun 2016
DCC - Winner (1): Mar 2015 (tied with Piar) || Host (3): May Oct 2015, Jan 2016
• The two public custom sets I've been part a part of the design team for:
"Brotherhood of Ormos" - Blog post with all info - set thread - design skeleton / card list || "Extinctia: Homo Evanuit" - Blog post with all info - set thread - card list spreadsheet
• "The Lion's Lair", my article series about MTG and custom card design in particular. Latest article here. Here is the article index. Rather outdated by now, and based on the old MCC rubric, but I'm leaving this here for anybody that might be interested anyway.
• My only public attempt at being a writer: the story of my Leonin custom planeswalker Jeff Lionheart. (I have a very big one that I'm working on right now but that's private for now, and I don't know if I will ever actually publish it, and I also have ideas for multiple future ones, including one where I'm going to reprise Jeff.)
1. Dahl's motivations right now feel kind of weak for a main block antagonist with an end leaving open the possibility of return and I feel could perhaps be molded a bit more towards the idea of showing off the bad/extreme side of white and oppression. I feel like perhaps mixing in a bit of White to go with his motivation in addition to his Black motivation of power could help with this: Perhaps one of the reasons he seeks power is not just for power's sake, but also so he can use it to impose his idea of "order"? The selfishness could still come from the fact he feels only he is fit to produce such "order" or is worthy for it, thus him hoarding power, and you could even make it so that some of this develope from his conquest to Ormos to begin with (Originally using the order just as a sham but over time coming to believe it is also his duty to impose order with his power or it being what he selfishly desires to DO with that power). This could also mix in some Blue by the fact that his order seems to particularly dislike various emotions judging from the Personality, though as Blue is his third color (Mostly there due to artifice) it would be downplayed (Hence his severe restriction of knowledge).
2. Tezzeret seems like more trouble than he is worth here, but I do feel that perhaps involving someone or something related to a big Planeswalker would fit, because it seems likely that with forces like Nicol Bolas, Ugin, Sorin Markov etc in the universe someone would notice a Plane that they cannot get in. One idea would be, since there's SOME level of ambiguity to if the Infinite Consortium exists + Nicol Bolas could make a new one anyway given he's Nicol Bolas (It was just that the Ravnica one is the only KNOWN cell left), that a new member of the Infinite Consortium could be investigating.
While not related to anyone large I can actually see Tamiyo slotting in easily: She travels a lot to try and find new knowledge, so the odds of her coming across a remote plane like Ormos would not be unreasonable, the idea of there being a Plane she cannot enter would both agitate and intrigue her and then when the Network goes down, she rushes in to get the knowledge the Plane holds (and would work as a counterpart to Dahl's censoring of information). I bring this up because IIRC someone mentioned Tamiyo as an option.
"one that visited Ormos long ago but Father Dahl erased every trace of his/her visit." This is a fun idea but I am not sure it works because Dahl artifically extends his lifespawn so Planeswalkers who visited it back then are, for the most part, probably dead. If this was done they would probably need to be a big character due to them still being alive over such a long period of time.
3. Is Father Dahl a human? I assume so, which works fine, but I wanted to ask. I bring this up because a secondary option is that Dahl is a species not native to Ormos and uses his unique appearance or whatnot to help with his claims of divinity (I am made in the image of the divine/I am the divine, from which no others are like me). If this is so then we could have one of the PWers who comes in later be the same species to further break his facade, but that may be too coincidental.
4. If you begin with Brainwash in Set 1 with -1/-1 counters and then do +1/+1s in the second set, you may have difficulties because you basically cannot reference Brainwash in the 2nd set (Unless you entirely ignore no different +s/-s in the same set as suggested but since this split was designed to get around it anyway) because there can't be BRainwash in the set and referencing Brainwashing in a set with no Brainwash cards would be very confusing.
5. Some thoughts on if you guys wanted to have a returning mechanic in the Rebel section
Convoke: Convoke could help show the idea of Rebels working together to break the yolk of oppression, though amusingly with different interp it also works as a Brotherhood mechanic. Kinda eh as an idea.
Exalted: Kind of a weird idea, but by focusing on attacking alone you are giving the idea of "individuality", and the idea of a single person rising to fight against the unthinking masses that oppose them. Exalted has some issue with not being Red but since it has appeared in every color except Red and there's nothing inherently anti-Red about it, it could easily be stretched into it, or only seen on Rebel cards that are non-Red.
Heroic: This was just used admittedly, but if we ignore that, it focuses on boosting a single creature (Individuality) vs. the masses, the name certainly fits a Rebel theme who are throwing off the yolk of oppression and it kind of works as a fun opposite to Detain and Implants (They target something to bring it down. The rebels target things to raise them up.)
6. I would not use Indignant/Indignation because it directly counters both of Ormos' keywords, Detain and Implants, since AFAIK they both target and get stopped, which would create a very warped Limited enviroment and just plain be weird flavor-wise to me.
7. Back to the story for a moment, something like the Isolating Network probably needs a concrete reason for existing, why is Dahl able to make this thing that can keep PWers out when there's many more powerful people who cannot, even when it'd be beneficial for them? Something that might help this is if maybe there's something special about Ormos that allows it to be constructed, which helped Dahl choose Ormos over different planes. It could also add a fun story element for the second set: What if the Rebels are able to commandeer it/part of this source and turn it to their own ends? This could also be something non-core PWers would be interested in.
8. I'd be interested in how the general gameplay of the set will work with the ideas of oppression, fighting it, feeling like the oppressor or the opressed etc. There's mechanics here but I do wonder if there's any more specifics in mind for how to create the enviroment you want.
(Unrelatedly, I kept accidentally spelling Ormos as Oromos. Whoops!)
EDIT: Also, a question. Why is it Dahl's home plane has enough/the ability to get Planeswalkers to hunt him down anyway? Did there just happen to be a bunch there or?
Quick as I want to go watch the BFZ preview show streaming.
1. I can see Dahl wanting to impose his own idea of order and I think it may be easily compatible with what we already have. I'd like to hear from Flatline about this though, as Dahl is mostly his creation.
2. The more time passes, the more I'm actually glad we excluded Tezzeret as it came with a lot of restrictions and clashed with Dahl's character. Without Tezzeret around, Dahl is free to do whatever he wants and we have no problems with our storyline having to connect to his somehow. I think not having Tezzeret is definitely the way to go now.
I like your way to involve Tamiyo. I thought her intention was to continue studying Innistrad's moon, but we can say that this is just another branch of her studies. Flatline?
3. Yes, he's a human. I thought I had written it in my blog post, but I may be wrong.
4. Yes, that's true. This can be solved in two ways: abandon the -/+ counter split, which I really liked, or make brainwash the mechanic we drop for the Brotherhood in the second set instead of Implants. Actually, I really like this idea: if in the second set the Brotherhood falls, no more brainwashing will be going on, so it can make sense to not have it in the set.
5. I'm not sure we want a returning mechanic for the Rebels. Among the three you mention, convoke is the one I see fitting best, but again, I'm not sure we want to have such a mechanic.
6. I was never passionate about that mechanic to begin with, my attitude was more "ok, I can accept it, let's see how it goes", so I wouldn't mind not using it.
7. In my mind Dahl builds the Isolating Network to help reinforce his image of a god. I'd be open to connect the Network to something exclusive to Ormos, but what could it be? Flatline, what do you think about this?
8. I don't have anything more specific in mind for now. We still have to reach that point.
MCC - Winner (6): Oct 2014, Apr Nov 2017, Jan 2018, Apr Jun 2019 || Host (15): Dec 2014, Apr Jul Aug Dec 2015, Mar Jul Aug Oct 2016, Feb Jul 2017, Jun Nov 2018, Feb Jul 2019 (last one here) || Judge (34): every month from Nov 2014 to Nov 2016 except Oct 2015, every month from Feb to Jul 2017 except Apr 2017, then Oct 2017, May Jun Nov 2018, Feb Jul 2019 (last one here)
CCL - Winner (3): Jul 2016 (tied with Flatline), May 2017, Jul 2019 (last one here) || Host (5): Feb 2015, Mar Apr May Jun 2016
DCC - Winner (1): Mar 2015 (tied with Piar) || Host (3): May Oct 2015, Jan 2016
• The two public custom sets I've been part a part of the design team for:
"Brotherhood of Ormos" - Blog post with all info - set thread - design skeleton / card list || "Extinctia: Homo Evanuit" - Blog post with all info - set thread - card list spreadsheet
• "The Lion's Lair", my article series about MTG and custom card design in particular. Latest article here. Here is the article index. Rather outdated by now, and based on the old MCC rubric, but I'm leaving this here for anybody that might be interested anyway.
• My only public attempt at being a writer: the story of my Leonin custom planeswalker Jeff Lionheart. (I have a very big one that I'm working on right now but that's private for now, and I don't know if I will ever actually publish it, and I also have ideas for multiple future ones, including one where I'm going to reprise Jeff.)
BTW, I didn't mean to side track people by making cards for the block. It's just that I have to make at least one card a day for the DCC, and Ormos is pretty much dominating the card-making section of my mind right now.
Edit: In a last ditch effort to try to get people to come around on defiant, here's a couple of examples (if I've posted these already, please forgive me, I think I'm trying to juggle a bit too much right now )....
Rebellious Recruit
Creature – Elf Rebel (U)
Defiant – Whenever a creature you control becomes the target of a spell or ability an opponent controls, look at the top card of your library. If it’s a creature card, you may reveal it and put it into your hand.
“Every time the Brotherhood attempts to tighten its grasp, they make my job that much easier.”
2/2
Rebellious Firemage
Creature – Viashino Rebel Wizard (R)
First strike, haste
Defiant – Whenever a creature you control becomes the target of a spell or ability an opponent contols, Rebellious Firemage deals 2 damage to that spell or ability’s controller.
3/3
Elvish Dissident
Creature - Elf Rebel (U)
Defiant - Whenever a creature you control becomes the target of a spell or ability an opponent controls, put a 1/1 green Elf rebel creature token onto the battelfield.
The Elves were among the first to join the rebellion.
3/2
Oldworld Healer
Creature - Human Rebel Cleric (C)
Defender
Defiant - Whenever a creature you control becomes the target of a spell or ability an opponent controls, you may gain 2 life.
0/3
Rebellion Mind Protector
Creature - Vedalken Wizard (R)
Defiant - Whenever a creature you control becomes the target of a spell or ability an opponent controls, you may pay . If you do, counter that spell unless its controller pays .
As a former member of the Brotherhood, Yintar knew how to counter their tactics as well as anybody in the rebellion.
2/4
Cardname
Creature - Elf Rebel Warrior
Hexproof
Defiant - Whenever a creature you control becomes the target of a spell or ability an opponent controls. Put a +1/+1 counter on ~ .
2/2
BTW, at this point, I see this ability in the second set anyway. As is indicated by my use of +1/+1 counters on the last one. This ability shows how the rebels are now openly defying the Brotherhood. Also, these cards are just supposed to be examples, I have not spent any time fine tuning them.
Edit: I accidently forgot to delete "you may pay " form my cut and past job on the last card. I've now fixed that.
It looks like we're really on the same wavelength on everything except for indignation/defiant, which I'm still open to try in playtest anyway. Maybe actually playing with it will change my mind on it.
Brainwash not being in the second set makes a lot of sense, but we must be aware it means we still have Implants and brainwash is the mechanic the Brotherhood loses. I'm perfectly ok with that.
I think we need at least one or two more planeswalkers Dahl's homeplane government sent after him. I wouldn't want him to be completely free when he planeswalkes away at the end of this block. I think the perfect number of planeswalkers chasing him is three, of which one is Freigh. Three planeswalkers can easily be at the same time on a plane, just consider how the Eldrazi have been freed, or how many planeswalkers are on Zendikar right now! The Isolation Network (now official name as it's the one you are using, the Isolating vs Isolation Network thing has gone on long enough) being created by Dahl to protect himself from them is a great idea. The fact that it also helps establishing his image as a god is just a nice bonus to him, but not the main purpose he created the Network.
Dahl is and definitely needs to be blue. No doubt about that. His artificer side would already be enough to justify it.
The planeswalker visiting in the past was my own idea, but I don't think we need it anymore. The 2/3 planeswalker split we have right now is perfect for a double large block. There's no need to do this anymore.
I definitely need to update the blog. I'll do it first thing tomorrow.
MCC - Winner (6): Oct 2014, Apr Nov 2017, Jan 2018, Apr Jun 2019 || Host (15): Dec 2014, Apr Jul Aug Dec 2015, Mar Jul Aug Oct 2016, Feb Jul 2017, Jun Nov 2018, Feb Jul 2019 (last one here) || Judge (34): every month from Nov 2014 to Nov 2016 except Oct 2015, every month from Feb to Jul 2017 except Apr 2017, then Oct 2017, May Jun Nov 2018, Feb Jul 2019 (last one here)
CCL - Winner (3): Jul 2016 (tied with Flatline), May 2017, Jul 2019 (last one here) || Host (5): Feb 2015, Mar Apr May Jun 2016
DCC - Winner (1): Mar 2015 (tied with Piar) || Host (3): May Oct 2015, Jan 2016
• The two public custom sets I've been part a part of the design team for:
"Brotherhood of Ormos" - Blog post with all info - set thread - design skeleton / card list || "Extinctia: Homo Evanuit" - Blog post with all info - set thread - card list spreadsheet
• "The Lion's Lair", my article series about MTG and custom card design in particular. Latest article here. Here is the article index. Rather outdated by now, and based on the old MCC rubric, but I'm leaving this here for anybody that might be interested anyway.
• My only public attempt at being a writer: the story of my Leonin custom planeswalker Jeff Lionheart. (I have a very big one that I'm working on right now but that's private for now, and I don't know if I will ever actually publish it, and I also have ideas for multiple future ones, including one where I'm going to reprise Jeff.)
Bolas is motivated by power BUT
1. I don't like Nicol Bolas as a villian (he's not very well written), but perhaps more importantly
2. He has specific motivations as to the power he is trying to get. Nicol Bolas doesn't just want any power, he wants to be the Godwalker he once was and rule over others. This gives him a motivation that feels a bit less general than just "any power". Note that Bolas' motivation is not defined as power until he loses that power.
While many minor antagonists have merely a lust for power, many of the larger ones even in the block have additional motivations on top of it, or additional things that motivate their lust for power. Xenagos found a nihilistic outlook in how small Theros was and goes from there. The Eldrazi are endlessly hungry monstrosities who feast on planes who have a large eldritch flair. The Phyrexians have a desire to upgrade and improve upon life, with different colors in New Phyrexia offering new twists on it. Yawgmoth too had ambitions of power but that was combined with a purpose for why, to an extent anyway, and a lust for the power that escaped him: Planeswalking. It is less than a lust for power is a /bad/ motivation as much as, usually, you want a bit more from someone who will be a large scale villian.
"Everyone keeps wanting to downplay (or eliminate) the blue in Dahl. I'm starting to think I'm crazy, but I see blue as Dahl's central color. While Dahl's motivations (emotions) are black, his intellect (mind) is blue. He is very intelligent, and equally as manipulative. While his goal is power, his means are very well thought out, they are cold and calculated. I also see his intellect being what drives him towards artifacts. He has always been tinkering to develop devices to help give him an edge. I've always pictured Dahl as being able to see through the eyes of his Drones, because he is magicly linked to them with his mind. Ultimately, it's the blue in him that makes him realize that white means are his best chance to control Ormos (I see this color-shift in Dahl as being a blue ability also). I wish I could do a better job of explain the way I see Dahl. Does any of what I'm saying make sense? BTW, I think that we should consider Dahl a very powerful artificer. More powerful than Tezzeret. Although he was quite young when his spark ignited, so he didn't begin to grow into that power until after he arrived on Ormos. "
I would say the reason for this is because the Ormos block feels like it has a large focus on the Brotherhood he creates, which has a large outward emphasis on his White and Black coloring, making the Blue color not as prominent outwardly. I can see how his intellect and such would give him blue coloring, I'd say things like him seeing white as a tool doesn't necessarily mean blue though: Black is perfectly able to see White things as a means to an end. I would say his blue primarily comes from his artifice and intelligence thereof and to a lesser extent his planning.
"We've already discussed the Tezzeret idea at length. It would take something really compelling to make me want to revisit it. I continue to think he isn't worth the hassle."
I was mostly saying I agree that Tezzeret is a bad idea (but that in theory a new char could work if decided).
"I forgot about this idea. It might be worth revisiting. I've kind of rethought the Dahl long-life thing a bit since I've re-read 1984. Although I still think we should follow through with the idea, I don't think we need to go crazy with it. In 1984, the Party managed to set up a society very close to the one I'm envisioning in about 30ish years. With magic introduced into the equation, I think that process could be cut down even more. Also, I'm thinking Dahl was rather young when he first got to Ormos. "
I think it would be best to see if you can remove the Dahl long life thing because it feels somewhat out of place and would fit more with how Neowalkers are portrayed. It might be fun to turn the concept into a card though of Dahl trying to actually make something to extend his life ("I don't want the enjoyment of my power to end so soon"): Maybe an Implant that siphons life away while the creature is controlled?
"I've always pictured Dahl as Human. It's part of the reason he ends up with the mostly Human clerics. I've also kind of pictured the non-Human species of Ormos as being treated as second class citizens (proles (short for proletarians) is what they call them in 1984). Although they are not formed in the image of Dahl, they are "of his mind" none the less. Your idea is a good one, but I would prefer to stick with were we are on this one. "
Sounds fine to me.
"Yes. If we do indeed do this (I want to), we wouldn't be able to have brainwash in the second set. That seems ok though, as the Brotherhood's grasp on the minds of the people is slipping, and ultimately destroyed in the second block. I'm wondering if we start to see the black side of Dahl (and thus the Brotherhood) start to come out a bit more? Just a thought."
I think that, if the Brotherhood begins to break down and thus a key part of his White (As White comes a lot from his means to the end), seeing more of his Black and Blue side would be pretty fitting. I do think it feels somewhat odd for Brainwashing to go away completely, since when people are rebelling against you seems like the exact time you would WANT to be brainwashing people.
"I still really like indignation (which I am now calling defiant), but it would seem I'm the only one. I want to say though, it doesn't stop anything, it only punishes people for targeting your stuff. It's built in CA. I think it sets up interesting decisions for the person sitting across from it. Do you deal with the threat first, allowing the defiant ability to trigger without even dealing with it? Or do you deal with the defiant creature first (which still triggers the defiant ability), allowing the threat to come at you one more turn? Defiant is just Thunderbreak Regent applied to all creatures. Anyway, as I said, I seem to be the only one that likes it, so I've resigned myself to the fact that we will not use it. That's ok though, in a collaboration, it shouldn't be expected that one will get everything one wants. It's to be expected."
Personally, I don't think Indignation/Defiant is a bad mechanic at the core, but I think that it should be put in a set where other major mechanics involve things that will trigger it because it is too counter-y. It does set up some interesting suggestions, but it'll also set up a lot of poopy feelings when you draft that sick Brainwash + Detain deck and then you can't keep a brainwashed Defiant guy out/Detain it a lot because otherwise they'll just use the effect forever. I also feel a lot of the descisions would be a bit binary if the targetting is heavy in the set. It IS just Thunderbreak Regent but at the same time, do you want enough Thunderbreak Regents in a block to warrant Keywording it?
A few cards with the effect written out might be better, I think, since of course some counters/checks to mechanics are good, and it could be especially fun for a high ranking rebel card.
"I think his desire to hide from those seeking him, combined with his desire to keep anyone from potentially breaking his hold over the citizens of Ormos, are enough motivation for him to want to build the Isolation Network. As far as why he can build it, I think this could be where the idea that Dahl is an extremely powerful artificer might come in. It is only he that can make this network. This is actually only me thinking aloud really. The idea that there is some substance (think etherium) on Ormos that Dahl covets is an interesting idea. I can picture Goblins slaving away to mine it."
I think his motivations for it are fine, I mostly think that his means shouldn't just be because he's a great artificier, since that offers up a fair amount of questions both for after (Can't Dahl just go somewhere else and make an Isolation Network to hide away after they kick his ass on Ormos?) and other characters (Surely Dahl isn't the only artificier who is that powerful, especially since nothing like this was around even with Oldwalkers IIRC). Personally I like the idea that there is some Etherium-like substance on Ormos that he craves so that he can build the Isolation Network and maybe help him with other stuff (Like making integrated chips for implants or whatnot).
It also could be a good idea to work with the Workcamps: They're sentenced to mine the very materials that keep them imprisoned! I remember there was a suggestion to keep the Network bases at camps and if so that could even be justification, keeping them nearby to process the materials that are mined out by slaves and undesirables. It's a good mental image anyway.
"This I'm not sure about. Is it that far-fetched? Perhaps we can have them send only Friegh. Would that make more sense? Maybe we could make Dahl originate from a plane that is a major hub in the multiverse, therefor it attracts many planeswalkers. Is that even possible?"
I think it might be more fun if they only send Freigh, in part because it might make the rivalry a bit more close than rather her being one hunter of many ("You've hunted me for years...and yet you'll die without even touching me. How tragic."). I mostly point it out because it seems rare that planes have many Planeswalkers who are all active and from the plane at once while visiting Planeswalkers might not even care about such an event depending on who they are: Even blocks usually only have like 5 PWers in them, despite there being major events, so either a major hub plane or Freigh alone might work better. (If the first is the case, he could be from a part of Dominaria as it is the "Nexus of the Multiverse"?)
EDIT: Just for clarity's sake, I'm not saying Dahl needs like a million motivations, but even something like wanting to get back some at his home plane and maybe Freigh being a bit more personal of a nemesis due to being his lone hunter makes him feel more enriched.
But for now, I mostly want to point out that I posted a bunch of example cards for defiant in my last post while you guys were posting. Please check them out when you get the chance, I didn't take much time developing them, so please bare that in mind. @Lion, if you still don't like the idea after looking at them, I won't bring it up any further. I'm fine with that decision, I just wanted one last chance to see if could change your mind. To be honest, I'm not in love with it to the point where I wouldn't want to change it myself if someone has a better idea. I'd be curious to hear Indighost's thoughts on the ability.
"1. I can see Dahl wanting to impose his own idea of order and I think it may be easily compatible with what we already have. I'd like to hear from Flatline about this though, as Dahl is mostly his creation."
Adding this onto Flatline's talk about Dahl's character, perhaps this goal could be Blue-oriented, considering the brainwashing perhaps trying to remove things like emotions? It might help give a fuller feeling mix of Black motivations, White means and Blue motivations/character. Just a thought.
"I like your way to involve Tamiyo. I thought her intention was to continue studying Innistrad's moon, but we can say that this is just another branch of her studies. Flatline?"
Glad you liked it! Depending on when we would say Ormos theoritically happens, we could also just say that Tamiyo has finished her studies. Given Tamiyo is said to travel planes for knowledge she could also easily have stepped away from it for the moment or whatnot as well.
"Dahl is and definitely needs to be blue. No doubt about that. His artificer side would already be enough to justify it."
Definitely.
"Three planeswalkers can easily be at the same time on a plane, just consider how the Eldrazi have been freed, or how many planeswalkers are on Zendikar right now!"
To be fair, and I could be wrong, story-wise weren't all the PWers on Zendikar called there (Such as by Gideon and Ugin)? Not saying that the idea doesn't work but pointing that out. The Eldrazi being freed involved Nicol Bolas intentionally manipulating at least one of the Planeswalkers there. You can probably get away with multiple PWers after him but I think it might make for a better story to have only one or two to give a further connection between Dahl and those who hunt him (Maybe the 2nd could be someone who pops up after Freigh dies and in Block 2 with the Isolation Network down?).
"I definitely need to update the blog. I'll do it first thing tomorrow."
Cool!
1: It leads to uninteractive play. Players don't want to be punished for interacting with their opponent't stuff - a lot of new players will treat defiant like hexproof.
2: A lot of the time, defiant is irrelevant. When an opponent targets a card like Rebellious Firemage, the firemage would most likely die, and while the damage is a tax, it is irrelevant a lot of the time. If we use defiant, we should take into account that most of the things that will trigger defiant will cause the creature to die, so the bonus needs to compensate for that by creating more creatures or providing card advantage of some sort - effects than can be problematic at the common level.
3: It leads to a lot of feel-bad moments. When i'm at 3 life with a removal spell in hand, I might have to use it when you have a defiant guy, but you still get your token or card or damage and I probably lose anyway. It really dosen't lend itself well to situations when one of the players is behind, bcause even if that player draws an answer to one of your creatures, he's still probably behind.
4: It can be hard to enable. In limited, creatures mainly die in combat, and there are much less removal spells than in an average constructed deck. True, we have detain and implat, which might make this problem easier to handle, but I can still see a lot of games when defiand will basically be a blank.
5: For defiant to be effective, you generally want pretty big creatures. Most of the time, your opponent won't target your wimpy 2/2 and trigger defiant. for an opponent to use up an ability, or better yet, a card, on your guy, it needs to be pretty threatening. It dosen't really work in small creaure decks - which looks like what the rebels want to be doing.
So let's just discuss about it later, when we actually come to the second set. It could be the additional mechanic the Rebels get in the second set. Anyway, only playing with it will clear my doubts. I share most of scrad's thoughts in the post right above this one.
About the planeswalkers chasing Dahl, I don't like Dahl having things completely solved for him with Freigh dying without even touching him. I picture the chase going on in a possible future block, and for that to be the case at least one more planeswalker has to still be chasing him. For some reason, having three planeswalkers total chasing him appeals to me. And I don't mean that ALL three come from Dahl's homeplane, they just need to be there when his spark ignites and he goes away. We don't even say who the others are in this block. We could even say there are others without saying exactly how many. I also don't like one of those showing up in the second set. I think it would pull focus away from the Rebellion, that is supposed to be the main focus of the second set.
Blog update and updated timeline proposal coming later tonight. I think the timeline is just too long and needs to be shortened to not have Dahl extending his own life span via chip implants. Flatline's comments about magic allowing him to establish his regime quicker reinforced that impression I was already having.
EDIT: The blog has just been updated. Please check the revised timeline in the flavor page. I realized that 137-F doesn't need to be born at time zero, but she can be born before without any problem. The only condition is that the Workcamps already exist. That and considering increments smaller than a year allowed me to bring the whole timeline from almost 50 years to 25 years.
MCC - Winner (6): Oct 2014, Apr Nov 2017, Jan 2018, Apr Jun 2019 || Host (15): Dec 2014, Apr Jul Aug Dec 2015, Mar Jul Aug Oct 2016, Feb Jul 2017, Jun Nov 2018, Feb Jul 2019 (last one here) || Judge (34): every month from Nov 2014 to Nov 2016 except Oct 2015, every month from Feb to Jul 2017 except Apr 2017, then Oct 2017, May Jun Nov 2018, Feb Jul 2019 (last one here)
CCL - Winner (3): Jul 2016 (tied with Flatline), May 2017, Jul 2019 (last one here) || Host (5): Feb 2015, Mar Apr May Jun 2016
DCC - Winner (1): Mar 2015 (tied with Piar) || Host (3): May Oct 2015, Jan 2016
• The two public custom sets I've been part a part of the design team for:
"Brotherhood of Ormos" - Blog post with all info - set thread - design skeleton / card list || "Extinctia: Homo Evanuit" - Blog post with all info - set thread - card list spreadsheet
• "The Lion's Lair", my article series about MTG and custom card design in particular. Latest article here. Here is the article index. Rather outdated by now, and based on the old MCC rubric, but I'm leaving this here for anybody that might be interested anyway.
• My only public attempt at being a writer: the story of my Leonin custom planeswalker Jeff Lionheart. (I have a very big one that I'm working on right now but that's private for now, and I don't know if I will ever actually publish it, and I also have ideas for multiple future ones, including one where I'm going to reprise Jeff.)
Will we use the five pivotal story moments thing that wizards are doing from now on? If so, what are those moments and how can we implement them mechanically?
BTW, I totally envision a legendary cycle of the heads of the various Ministries. Each one would be mono-colored, and would be the main race for that particular sect. I kinda think they should all have the title "Big Brother", although hat would be another pretty blatant rip off 1984, so I'm not sure it's necessary.
For various reasons, I'm going to wait until tomorrow to say much more, although I do have one more thing. I think we should change the name of Workcamp78 to Workcamp83 in honor of all bravelion's hard work.
Edit: One morer thing ...I'm very surprised, and equally pleased that people like the idea of switching from -1/-1 counters in the first set to +1/+1 counters in the second. I really thought people would shoot that idea down. Shows what I know.
Edit2: I also feel I should say that I am over defiant. If nobody else likes it, I see no reason to discuss it any more. I'm sure we'll come up with something better anyway.
I can think of a cycle that looks like this:
Elder Brother A 2WW
Legendary Creature - Human Cleric (R)
Vigilance
Whenever CARDNAME enters the battlefield or attacks, you may put a -1/-1 counter on any number of target detained creatures. Those creatures becomes brainwashed.
2/3
Elder Brother B 2UU
Legendary Creature - Vedalken Wizard (R)
Prowess
Whenever CARDNAME enters the battlefield or attacks, You may detain target creature with power less than or equal to CARDNAME's power.
2/3
Elder Brother C 2BB
Legendary Creature - Rattillion Rogue
Menace
Whenever CARDNAME enters the battlefield or attacks, you may destroy target creature with a -1/-1 counter on it.
2/3
Elder Brother D 2RR
Legendary Creature - Viashino Artificer
First Strike
Whenever CARDNAME enters the battlefield or attacks, you may sacrifice an artifact. If you do, CARDNAME deals 2 Damage to target player. If the artifact was equipped to a creature, CARDNAME deals 3 damage to that creature instead.
3/2
Elder Brother E 2GG
Legendary Creature - Elf Shaman
Trample
Whenever CARDNAME enters the battlefield or attacks, you may put any number of counters on target creature onto another target creature.
3/2
I'm aware that wer'e not in the design part yet, but these are just rough sketches. I would assumes that white bleeds into -1/-1 counter themes in this set, hence the white brother's design. I would like to know if any of these ideas are good and doable.
Javal, Minister of Order
Legendary Creature - Human Cleric
Vigilance
Other creatures you control have base power and toughness 2/2.
Creatures your opponents control have base power and toughness 1/1.
"In order for some to have more, it is necessary that others have less. This is the way the Father intended it."
4/4
This might need some work, but it's more along the lines of what I'm thinking about. Either way, I think we (me in particular, I totally started it ) should try to refrain from card making for now. BTW, I really like your Elder Brother idea (it definitely needs brother in it, all citizens of Ormos are brother something or sister something, we need ways to differentiate the more powerful members). It's the perfect solution to what we call Dahl's inner circle.
EDIT: If they are mythic, it kinda limits our other mythics, as it basically fills the white slots and leaves us with eight more mythics. I could see a split like this:
3 White mythics (Including 137-F)
2 Blue Mythics
2 Black
2 Red
2 Green
Father Dahl (WUB)
Freigh (RG)
1 Multicolored
1 Artifact/Land
The problem is that in this configuration, white has 4 mythics with Father Dahl. I'm not sure this is a problem, because white is, after all, the most important color in the set and a central color both for the rebellion and for the brotherhood, but it still feels like a bit too much.
For reference, this is the mechanic along with my thoughts.
Recruit - Whenever another nontoken creature enters the battlefield under your control, <effect>.
Yes it's similar to rally, but I don't think that's too much of a problem, as it's heavily associated with Allies and we don't have any here. It also only triggers when another creature etb and not when the creature itself etb, unlike normal etb abilities and rally, and I say we keep it this way to differentiate from both of those.
The flavor is very good in my opinion, and we need simple mechanics to go with Implants and brainwash, which are more on the complex side. I'd be glad to use this as what I call the "completely unknown" mechanic for the Rebels in my last blog update.
Lawbreak
I'm currently working on a few ideas for the "breaking the law" mechanic for the Rebels, and here they are.
My thought process was this: Rebels want to break the law. But what is "the law" in Magic? The obvious thing is enchantments, but having a keyword only interact with those looks narrow. I wanted to make the mechanic broader, so I though about "noncreature permanents", but that includes lands and planeswalkers and it also feels like it overlaps with prowess (now evergreen) in design space. I don't want to keyword land destruction, and planeswalker destruction also looks like a problem: on a few single cards it's ok, like on Hero's Downfall or Ruinous Path (oh, why can't it be an instant?), but as a whole mechanics it's not. So in the end I went back to just "artifacts and enchantments", remembering we have Implants here and there was already talk of having just a bit more artifacts than the average set. So I went with that as the "law". But what about breaking? Obviously that means destruction, but does it have to? Maybe there are some other ways to represent that. Anyway, it's obvious (for flavor) that it should work against the opponent's "law", not your own. I propose the three best options coming out of my brainstorming.
---
First version:
Lawbreak (Whenever this creature attacks, it gets +1/+1 until end of turn for each artifact or enchantment defending player controls.)
This requires a little more than average artifacts (Dahl's devices: drones, chips, etc...) and enchantments (flavorfully laws even without the Law subtype mentioned a long time ago) in the set.
In red it makes sense as enchantment hatred. Red is not allowed to destroy enchantments, but it's allowed to hate them. In green and white it already makes sense anyway.
The only potential problem I see is a developmental one vs Affinity decks in Modern, but it's only really a problem on creatures with trample or that can't be blocked, and we just have to make sure such creatures cost enough mana. The others can still be chump blocked and anyway lawbreak works only on offense.
Problem: this wants your opponent to have a lot of artifact/enchantments, while the flavor implies the creature wants to destroy them. But it could also be seen as "the more laws I have to break, the stronger I have to be to fight them". Mechanically it seems to fit though: a Brotherhood deck wants laws and their enemies get stronger the more laws the Brotherhood imposes them. Also, a Rebel to the law won't be scared by more laws.
---
Another option is to keyword the Trygon Predator ability to literally "break" the "law" (aka artifacts and enchantments):
Lawbreak (Whenever this creature deals combat damage to a player, you may destroy target artifact or enchantment that player controls.)
I don't think this has any particular developmental problems, except for the fact that it can't be in red (it's enchantment destruction). It can still be in green and white, and red can use recruit and other single cards. The flavor is even better than the first version, as here you actually get to break something. The only thing I have to say against this is that it may actively go against Implants which we also want in the set. But at the contrary, it works wonderfully in flavor if the Brotherhood is oppressing one of your creatures with an Implant: how do you get rid of it? Just have a lawbreaking Rebel on your side! And what if you're the Brotherhood player worried about a lawbreaker coming to break your Implants? Just detain him! Or brainwash him until he dies! This has wonderful synergies with the other mechanical parts of the set. If we go with this version, we'd probably just have to pay attention to how many Implants and lawbreakers we have and their distribution in rarity, but it should be definitely doable. This is the most flavorful version in my opinion, and definitely my own favorite and the one I'd personally choose.
---
My third and final proposal is this:
Lawbreak - Whenever an artifact or enchantment an opponent controls is put into a graveyard from the battlefield, [EFFECT].
An ability word representing a death trigger for artifacts and enchantments (remember "dies" is only used for creatures). This requires other cards to function, and thus is more linear. The flavor is very similar to the second version. The problem here is that this version does nothing by itself.
Thoughts? Which one does the team prefer?
MCC - Winner (6): Oct 2014, Apr Nov 2017, Jan 2018, Apr Jun 2019 || Host (15): Dec 2014, Apr Jul Aug Dec 2015, Mar Jul Aug Oct 2016, Feb Jul 2017, Jun Nov 2018, Feb Jul 2019 (last one here) || Judge (34): every month from Nov 2014 to Nov 2016 except Oct 2015, every month from Feb to Jul 2017 except Apr 2017, then Oct 2017, May Jun Nov 2018, Feb Jul 2019 (last one here)
CCL - Winner (3): Jul 2016 (tied with Flatline), May 2017, Jul 2019 (last one here) || Host (5): Feb 2015, Mar Apr May Jun 2016
DCC - Winner (1): Mar 2015 (tied with Piar) || Host (3): May Oct 2015, Jan 2016
• The two public custom sets I've been part a part of the design team for:
"Brotherhood of Ormos" - Blog post with all info - set thread - design skeleton / card list || "Extinctia: Homo Evanuit" - Blog post with all info - set thread - card list spreadsheet
• "The Lion's Lair", my article series about MTG and custom card design in particular. Latest article here. Here is the article index. Rather outdated by now, and based on the old MCC rubric, but I'm leaving this here for anybody that might be interested anyway.
• My only public attempt at being a writer: the story of my Leonin custom planeswalker Jeff Lionheart. (I have a very big one that I'm working on right now but that's private for now, and I don't know if I will ever actually publish it, and I also have ideas for multiple future ones, including one where I'm going to reprise Jeff.)
Outlaw (Whenever this creature deals combat damage to a player, that player reveals the top card of his or her library. If it's a noncreature card, exile it and this creature deals 1 damage to that player.)
which could also be worded with a little functional change as:
Outlaw (Whenever this creature attacks and isn't blocked, defending player reveals the top card of his or her library. If it's a noncreature card, exile it and this creature gets +1/+1 until end of turn.)
EDIT: I just realized this is too similar to ingest, I must have been subconsciously inspired by BFZ spoilers. The revealed card can be a random card from defending player's hand, or it may be a check if defending player controls a nonland noncreature permanent. I'm not coming to an end, am I?
EDIT 2: Looking for synonyms of "outlaw" in Gatherer for inspiration, I gladly rediscovered Stinkdrinker Bandit, a card I liked to play with at the time. Its triggered ability, with a similar trigger from the last version above, inspired me. Would the following ability be too simple as a keyword?
Outlaw (Whenever this creature attacks and isn't blocked, it gets +1/+1 until end of turn.)
It's kind of a reverse bushido: the creature deals more damage to players than to creatures. The Rebels want to go to the head, they want to "hunt the biggest game"! (M15/Garruk pun totally intended.) It also makes complete sense in all three Naya colors, that are the center of the Rebellion. Maybe I just need to abandon the idea of noncreatures or artifacts/enchantments as "the law". It's now two days that I'm thinking about it and apparently it led me nowhere good...
EDIT 3 (I'm sorry, I'm just writing as ideas come to me): that card also has prowl. What about a prowl variant that always looks for Rebels regardless of the creature's subtypes? Like this:
Rebellion [COST] (You may cast this spell for its rebellion cost if you dealt combat damage to a player this turn with a Rebel.)
Putting this also on Rebel-associated instants, sorceries, artifacts, and enchantments, and also on non-Rebel but still Rebel-associated creatures (kind of those dogs the Rebels use to detect implanted chips):
Chip-Detecting Dog 2R
Creature - Hound (C)
When Chip-Detecting Dog enters the battlefield, you may destroy target Equipment.
Rebellion 1R (You may cast this spell for its rebellion cost if you dealt combat damage to a player this turn with a Rebel.)
2/2
It's just an example, I didn't think about costs or balance.
MCC - Winner (6): Oct 2014, Apr Nov 2017, Jan 2018, Apr Jun 2019 || Host (15): Dec 2014, Apr Jul Aug Dec 2015, Mar Jul Aug Oct 2016, Feb Jul 2017, Jun Nov 2018, Feb Jul 2019 (last one here) || Judge (34): every month from Nov 2014 to Nov 2016 except Oct 2015, every month from Feb to Jul 2017 except Apr 2017, then Oct 2017, May Jun Nov 2018, Feb Jul 2019 (last one here)
CCL - Winner (3): Jul 2016 (tied with Flatline), May 2017, Jul 2019 (last one here) || Host (5): Feb 2015, Mar Apr May Jun 2016
DCC - Winner (1): Mar 2015 (tied with Piar) || Host (3): May Oct 2015, Jan 2016
• The two public custom sets I've been part a part of the design team for:
"Brotherhood of Ormos" - Blog post with all info - set thread - design skeleton / card list || "Extinctia: Homo Evanuit" - Blog post with all info - set thread - card list spreadsheet
• "The Lion's Lair", my article series about MTG and custom card design in particular. Latest article here. Here is the article index. Rather outdated by now, and based on the old MCC rubric, but I'm leaving this here for anybody that might be interested anyway.
• My only public attempt at being a writer: the story of my Leonin custom planeswalker Jeff Lionheart. (I have a very big one that I'm working on right now but that's private for now, and I don't know if I will ever actually publish it, and I also have ideas for multiple future ones, including one where I'm going to reprise Jeff.)
Yes, I was trying not to post in the thread for a day or so to give you some time to catch up. In case people haven't noticed, lion and I are very verbal people. Sorry, but I'm not sure how else to collaborate on a set via the internet.
As far as recruit goes, I'm glad people like it. As far as I'm concerned we can put it in the books exactly as lion has it worded above. I'd say more about it, but lion summed up my thoughts nicely, and it's a pretty self explanatory mechanic that fits the rebels from a flavor standpoint.
As far as lawbreak is concerned, I'm just not sure we're going to have enough artifacts and enchantments in the block to justify it. I like both the reverse bushido outlaw, and rebellion better than than lawbreak for this particular set. I think of the three, I like rebellion best. A friend of mine played a prowl deck when I first started playing Magic, and I always thought it was pretty cool. The only problem I have with it is, like prowl, it probably won't be anything that is played outside of the block that it is intended for. Even more so since rebels are less common than rogues and Goblins. I suppose that might be ok though.
Speaking of making sense outside of block, when we start making card with brainwash, I think most of the card that reference brainwash should actually have brainwash (such as my example card from earlier, Mollification Mage). Cards without brainwash should probably reference -1/-1 counters instead. What I'm trying to say is, a card like "Gain control of target creature with one or more -1/-1 counters on it" works outside of block, whereas a card that reads "Gain control of target brainwashed creature" doesn't. I'm sure you've all already thought of this, but I just wanted to point that out.
I feel like there a million other things I need to respond to right now, but I can't think of them right now, nor do I have time right now. I'll have to post another longwinded post again tonight.
"I like it best" as in "It's the best of the bunch, but I'd prefer something else" or as in "I'd be ready to put it in the set"? That's the best I have to offer for now, after two days I've almost given up creating a "break the law" mechanic or something as close as possible. It turns out it's a quite difficult concept to represent, and I didn't expect it.
Anyway, keep in mind it still works with old Rebels (the ones with the "Rebel mechanic") if you want to do some crazy past-present mix. And most of all, they are still perfectly working cards outside of block. You can still cast my Chip-Detecting Dog from above for its normal mana cost of 2R outside of block. The discounted price would just be a bonus for you to do the "block thing". Now, I made an example that is not exactly pushed for constructed and I was aware of it, but say I make a card like this (again, just an unbalanced example):
Rebel Rhino 3G
Creature - Rhino (R)
Rebellion 1GG (You may cast this spell for its rebellion cost if you dealt combat damage to a player this turn with a Rebel.)
Trample, hexproof
3/3
This could probably be constructed playable even without rebellion. With it, it's even better. Or even:
Rebel Bolt 1R
Instant (C)
Rebellion R (You may cast this spell for its rebellion cost if you dealt combat damage to a player this turn with a Rebel.)
Rebel Bolt deals 3 damage to target creature or player.
This is a Lightning Strike, that is a perfectly playable card by itself. With rebellion, it becomes a Lightning Bolt, a Modern staple.
Agreed, most should actually have it themselves. Anyway, I've always thought to use brainwashed as a bonus, such as "Tap target creature. If that creature is brainwashed, gain control of it instead." You still have a base effect that you would get out of block too, but again, if you do the "block thing", the spell is better. I remember reading MaRo a long time ago saying that this is a thing they've done multiple times. In fact, in my example here I was inspired by Dispatch attaching your own example instead of exile. In the end we need effects referencing brainwashed creatures, otherwise what is the "becomes brainwashed" part of brainwash for?
Also, recruit for the Rebels and detain and Implants for the Brotherhood are already 100% backwards-compatible mechanics. Their other mechanics (brainwash and rebellion if we choose it) can be something a little more block-specific. Each block has a few things for itself. Example: BFZ. Devoid, awaken, converge, landfall are perfectly backwards-compatible. Ingest is kind of halfway, it technically is too, but it really needs Processors to take advantage of it, and they are exclusive to BFZ block. Rally is the exact opposite of backwards-compatible: all the creatures that can trigger it are only in original Zendikar and BFZ blocks, and the mechanics does literally nothing in blocks without Allies, which is every other block in Magic history. I think we're in a similar situation right now, so I don't see any real problems.
Looking forward to it!
MCC - Winner (6): Oct 2014, Apr Nov 2017, Jan 2018, Apr Jun 2019 || Host (15): Dec 2014, Apr Jul Aug Dec 2015, Mar Jul Aug Oct 2016, Feb Jul 2017, Jun Nov 2018, Feb Jul 2019 (last one here) || Judge (34): every month from Nov 2014 to Nov 2016 except Oct 2015, every month from Feb to Jul 2017 except Apr 2017, then Oct 2017, May Jun Nov 2018, Feb Jul 2019 (last one here)
CCL - Winner (3): Jul 2016 (tied with Flatline), May 2017, Jul 2019 (last one here) || Host (5): Feb 2015, Mar Apr May Jun 2016
DCC - Winner (1): Mar 2015 (tied with Piar) || Host (3): May Oct 2015, Jan 2016
• The two public custom sets I've been part a part of the design team for:
"Brotherhood of Ormos" - Blog post with all info - set thread - design skeleton / card list || "Extinctia: Homo Evanuit" - Blog post with all info - set thread - card list spreadsheet
• "The Lion's Lair", my article series about MTG and custom card design in particular. Latest article here. Here is the article index. Rather outdated by now, and based on the old MCC rubric, but I'm leaving this here for anybody that might be interested anyway.
• My only public attempt at being a writer: the story of my Leonin custom planeswalker Jeff Lionheart. (I have a very big one that I'm working on right now but that's private for now, and I don't know if I will ever actually publish it, and I also have ideas for multiple future ones, including one where I'm going to reprise Jeff.)