EDIT: One thing I like about the second version is that it can be on noncreature artifacts.
Arnyx's Wrench (Uncommon) 1
Artifact
Windup (If there's no counters on this, you may pay 2 and put two charge counters on it. At the beginning of your upkeep, remove a counter from this. Windup only as a sorcery.) T, Remove a charge counter from Arnyx's Wrench: Regenerate target artifact.
Extremely interesting. I think having non-creature windup is worth exploring a bit more. Could we integrate that with the version of windup we currently have?
Clockwork toolbox 3
Artifact
Windup (T, Tap an untapped creature you control: Put a +1/+1 counter or charge counter on each artifact tapped this way. Windup only as a sorcery.) T, remove two charge counter from ~ : Draw a card.
Ironman armour 4
Artifact
Windup (T, Tap an untapped creature you control: Put a +1/+1 counter or charge counter on each artifact tapped this way. Windup only as a sorcery.)
~ enters the battlefield with 2 charge counters on it. 2, T : Target creature gets +X/+X until end of turn, where X is the number of charge counters on ~
The Buckshot Cycle revamp. I commented on the cycle on multiverse. imo the current cycle is too mathy and confusing for common and too weak for higher rarities.
Test of Courage (Common) (2/W)
Instant
Target creature gets +1/+2 until end of turn. If WW was spent to cast Test of Courage, prevent all damage that would be dealt to that creature this turn.
Think Ahead (Common) (2/U)
Instant
Scry 2. (Look at the top two cards of your library, then put any number of them on the bottom of your library and the rest on top in any order.)
If UU was spent to cast Think Ahead, draw a card.
Weaken (Common) (2/B)
Instant
Remove a counter from target permanent. If BB was spent to cast Weaken, remove all counters from that permanent instead.
Scorch (Common) (2/R)
Instant
Scorch deals 1 damage to target creature without flying. If RR was spent to cast Scorch, it deals 1 damage to each creature without flying instead.
Venture Forth (Common) (2/G)
Instant
Search your library for a basic land card, reveal it, and put it into your hand. If GG was spent to cast Venture Forth, put that card onto the battlefield tapped instead. Then shuffle your library.
Slightly off-topic but something that needs to be brought up...
What are our thoughts on "Wastes"?
Should we include it in the set? It would substaintially improve Steampowered and our other colorless mana matters cards.
Would it bring us too close to OGW & BFZ?
My though is that for the Depletion subtheme, we can use make use of them in the same way Spreading Seas was used.
Hard Industrialisation 1U
Enchantment
Enchant land
Enchanted land is a Wastes and produce one additional colorless when tapped as long as it's a Wastes.
That or the Robber Baron might play with this.
Robber Baron 2UB
Creature - Human Noble
1U: Put a depletion counter on target land. It's controller draws a card (A land with a depletion counter is a Wastes for as long as it has a depletion counter)
2/3
That is probably the closest we are gonna get imo to Wastes.
A few UB "depletion" ideas. I went with enchantments because, unlike depletion counters, they offer both design space and interaction. Plus turning lands into Wastes doesn't mean much since "Waste" is the name of a card but isn't a subtype. This may or may not be the final iteration, but it may at least spark an idea or two. Oh, "Nexo" is an evil corporate badguy's name and "Apax" is the name of his evil corporation.
Vitiation (Common) 1B
Enchantment – Aura
Enchant land
Enchanted land produces C instead of any other type and amount.
Whenever enchanted land becomes tapped, its controller loses 1 life.
Nexo’s Vision (Common) U
Instant
All lands produce C instead of any other type and amount until end of turn.
Draw a card.
Apax Digsite (Uncommon) 3U
Enchantment – Aura
Enchant land
When Apax Digsite enters the battlefield, draw two cards.
Enchanted land produces CC instead of any other type and amount.
Apax Smokestack (Uncommon) 2B
Enchantment – Aura
Enchant land
Enchanted land produces C instead of any other type and amount.
Whenever enchanted land becomes tapped, its controller loses 2 life.
Arcane Runoff (Rare) 2UB
Enchantment
Nonbasic lands produce C instead of any other type and amount.
Plus a land that produces C.
Apax Nexus (Rare)
Land T: Add one mana of any type to your mana pool. You lose 1 life.
Also, what's ya'll opinion of current Windup in light of spoiled Cohort?
I am not quite sure, as I did not play with Cohort yet. The two abilities share striking resemblances, but I believe the differences are large and significant enough to offer vastly different gameplay. If we could push windup upon non-creature artifacts as well, this would open design space that Cohort did not explore. One of my concerns however, is how to make one or two exciting mythics or high level cards with Windup. Outlast had this problem where every card with the ability was aimed toward limited, and not a single one saw constructed play.
It should also be noted that if we start doing Windup triggers (like "Whenever you windup ~, creatures you control gain lifelink until end of turn"), Windup becomes almost exactly a Cohort variant. Whether this is fine or not is left for debate. There are many quasi-variants of existing keywords (ex. kicker) in the history of Magic, and I do not think we should shy away from using one if it fits what we need.
Very interesting to see a revival on this. I know there was a bit of friction the last time I got involved with finding artwork for the old set, but would people be interested in me doing the same thing here? (also in helping out card design/creation) I still have hundreds of unused Steampunk artwork I have saved, and there's bound to be plenty of new ones since last year
The Buckshot Cycle revamp. I commented on the cycle on multiverse. imo the current cycle is too mathy and confusing for common and too weak for higher rarities.
I'm open to making this change if necessary, but Buckshot and kin have been around for quite a while (they basically started the set). I'm willing to part with them if they're causing problems, but right now I'm willing to spend a few complexity points on them.
A few UB "depletion" ideas. I went with enchantments because, unlike depletion counters, they offer both design space and interaction. Plus turning lands into Wastes doesn't mean much since "Waste" is the name of a card but isn't a subtype. This may or may not be the final iteration, but it may at least spark an idea or two. Oh, "Nexo" is an evil corporate badguy's name and "Apax" is the name of his evil corporation.
(U/B) has always had some kind of theme like this, but I like this implementation. There are two comments I have. 1) the old archester set also turned the lands into artifacts, which offered up some more interaction (both positive and negative) with the rest of the set. Think we could work that in here? 2) This pushes Black more heavily into steam powered territory. Is this something we want?
I’m not sure how exactly or if even this could be implemented, but if the set has holes, this might help or spark ideas.
Oh man, I totally forgot about assembly workers! They were a cool tribal theme in the original set. Right now we're so strapped for space I'm not sure we can get them into every color like this. I would still like to see the original Assembly-Worker plus maybe a few more tweaks in the artifact section.
Also, what's ya'll opinion of current Windup in light of spoiled Cohort?
It's a pretty big coincidence, however I think the mechanics are distinct enough that I'm not really bothered. While I like grimGrendel's idea of incorporating non-creature artifacts, I'm concerned it might be too confusing as currently suggested (i.e. putting charge counters on creatures is a possibility now).
Very interesting to see a revival on this. I know there was a bit of friction the last time I got involved with finding artwork for the old set, but would people be interested in me doing the same thing here? (also in helping out card design/creation) I still have hundreds of unused Steampunk artwork I have saved, and there's bound to be plenty of new ones since last year
The friction was only because there were a decent number of retroactively changed cards. Overall though, the artwork you found for the set was excellent and I would definitely like to work with you again. This time, since we're far earlier in the process, we can hopefully figure out art issues ahead of time and design in such a way that compliments your work rather than fights it. However, we're also a bit too early in the project to really be thinking seriously about art.
Since this is a pretty heavily dedicated design thread, maybe I should look at creating a creative revival thread? That way we can start talking about story and world building and art over there.
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Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"In the beginning, MTG Salvation switched to a new forum format.
This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move."
It was at that moment that I realized: I'm kinda just making these things up. We can just write the rules the way we want them to work. People will have fun, and people will get it.
I am a bit concerned about the color requirement Steam-powered has of C. Guard in a box (1(2/W)) goes from a solid playable costing 1W to a very restrictive steam-powered card costing CCC, and that is just one of the cheapest cards in the file. With the current implementation, we will be requiring players to cast steam cards effectively costing CCCCC, making a steam mana base an extremely parasitic mechanism. Also, we currently cannot design 6+ mana cards with steam-power without making them ridiculous. Would there be a way to activate steam-power without requiring all that mana? For example an alternate cost, or a threshold of colourless to activate the steam card?
Mechanical Elephant (2/G)(2/G)(2/G)
Artifact Creature - Elephant
3/3
Trample
Steam Powered CC (If CC was spent to cast this spell, it becomes steam powered)
When ~ enters the battlefield, if it was steam powered, put a +1/+1 counter on it.
The common leviathan 5(2/U)
Artifact Creature - Whale
5/5
Steam Powered C (If C was spent to cast this spell, it becomes steam powered)
When ~ enters the battlefield, if it was steam powered, put a +1/+1 counter on it.
~ can't attack unless it has a +1/+! counter on it
We could also get extravagant with this one :
Rainbow factory 2(2/G)(2/G)
sorcery
Steam Powered WUBRG (If WUBRG was spent to cast this spell, it becomes steam powered)
Search your library for up to five basic land cards with different names. Reveal those cards and put them into your hand. Then shuffle your library.
If ~ was steam powered, you may put those cards onto the battlefield instead
This variation would also allow us to put Steam-powered on non-hybrid cards. Although we might not want or need this, it would free up some of the very limited space we have for hybrid cards and allow for more sweet hybrid designs to fit into the set.
Mis-stoke 2U
instant
Steam powered C (If C was spent to cast this spell, it becomes steam powered)
Counter target spell unless it's controller pays 1. If ~ was steam powered, counter that spell unless it's controller pays C instead.
Draw a card
Very interesting to see a revival for this project. I know there was a bit of friction when I was last was involved, but would people be interested in me working on selecting artwork for cards as before, as well as working on card design/editing?
Also is there a new version of Magic Set Editor that has the C symbol?
Edit: I just looked at some of the new cards in the multiverse cardlist and already I see cards that need serious tweaking/changing and/or are very underwhelming. Disciple Executioner a Common??
1) the old archester set also turned the lands into artifacts, which offered up some more interaction (both positive and negative) with the rest of the set. Think we could work that in here?
2) This pushes Black more heavily into steam powered territory. Is this something we want?
Since this is a pretty heavily dedicated design thread, maybe I should look at creating a creative revival thread? That way we can start talking about story and world building and art over there.
It will be a good idea but I say "not now" to this. Otherwise, we will get divided on the creative ressources and I think for now we need all hands on deck with the creation of the engine before even thinking of flavour and lore.
I am a bit concerned about the color requirement Steam-powered has of C. Guard in a box (1(2/W)) goes from a solid playable costing 1W to a very restrictive steam-powered card costing CCC, and that is just one of the cheapest cards in the file. With the current implementation, we will be requiring players to cast steam cards effectively costing CCCCC, making a steam mana base an extremely parasitic mechanism. Also, we currently cannot design 6+ mana cards with steam-power without making them ridiculous. Would there be a way to activate steam-power without requiring all that mana? For example an alternate cost, or a threshold of colourless to activate the steam card?
Mechanical Elephant (2/G)(2/G)(2/G)
Artifact Creature - Elephant
3/3
Trample
Steam Powered CC (If CC was spent to cast this spell, it becomes steam powered)
When ~ enters the battlefield, if it was steam powered, put a +1/+1 counter on it.
The common leviathan 5(2/U)
Artifact Creature - Whale
5/5
Steam Powered C (If C was spent to cast this spell, it becomes steam powered)
When ~ enters the battlefield, if it was steam powered, put a +1/+1 counter on it.
~ can't attack unless it has a +1/+! counter on it
We could also get extravagant with this one :
Rainbow factory 2(2/G)(2/G)
sorcery
Steam Powered WUBRG (If WUBRG was spent to cast this spell, it becomes steam powered)
Search your library for up to five basic land cards with different names. Reveal those cards and put them into your hand. Then shuffle your library.
If ~ was steam powered, you may put those cards onto the battlefield instead
This variation would also allow us to put Steam-powered on non-hybrid cards. Although we might not want or need this, it would free up some of the very limited space we have for hybrid cards and allow for more sweet hybrid designs to fit into the set.
Mis-stoke 2U
instant
Steam powered C (If C was spent to cast this spell, it becomes steam powered)
Counter target spell unless it's controller pays 1. If ~ was steam powered, counter that spell unless it's controller pays C instead.
Draw a card
First off, Mis-stoke, apart from the draw a card, which is imo overboard, wow! If not the definition of Steam powered, it has to find some way in the rares as a mechanical Singleton.
As for Steam-powered, I can assure you, with the fixing the set had originally, it is do-able to cast some of the highest cost Steam-powered (although hard). And because of flavour fail, let's refrain from making anything like Rainbow Factory (in term of Steampower activation) because it just looks silly.
But I am OK with changing how Steam powered work personally (although we will have to rethink the power difference between the two levels. Steam Storm from the old set comes to mind as overpowered in the new setting.)
As for Steam-powered, I can assure you, with the fixing the set had originally, it is do-able to cast some of the highest cost Steam-powered (although hard). And because of flavour fail, let's refrain from making anything like Rainbow Factory (in term of Steampower activation) because it just looks silly.
Rainbow Factory was made to look silly. If we decide to not use any coloured mana in such a version of Steam-powered, we could replace the mana with a number instead, although I like the look and feel with the mana symbols
But I am OK with changing how Steam powered work personally (although we will have to rethink the power difference between the two levels. Steam Storm from the old set comes to mind as overpowered in the new setting.)
Is this still overpowered to you?
Steam Storm (2/R)(2/R)(2/R)(2/R)
Sorcery
Steam Powered CCCC (If CCCC was spent to cast this spell, it becomes steam powered)
Steam Storm deals 5 damage to each creature and each planeswalker. If ~ was steam powered, destroy each nonland permanent instead.
I think having a varied threshold of C for different steam powered card is necessary. It makes design more flexible, and it means there are usually a way to give a proper threshold to existing steam card to keep that card essentially the same.
Steam Storm (2/R)(2/R)(2/R)(2/R)
Sorcery
Steam Powered CCCC (If CCCC was spent to cast this spell, it becomes steam powered)
Steam Storm deals 5 damage to each creature and each planeswalker. If ~ was steam powered, destroy each nonland permanent instead.
I think having a varied threshold of C for different steam powered card is necessary. It makes design more flexible, and it means there are usually a way to give a proper threshold to existing steam card to keep that card essentially the same.
Plus it looks so good. And it's far less mathy and far more grockable. Just a fixed number of C is so easy to mentally process. Instead of "Okay, this costs 3(2/U)(2/U), so to steam power it I need 3+2+2 C, which is well let's see, 2+2=4 and 4+3=7, so I need a total of seven C. Alright, now how much C can I produce so far... one, two, three, four, five... so 7-5=2. Dang, I still need two more C to steam power this card. Whatever, I'll just cast it for 3UU.
Mechanical Elephant (2/G)(2/G)(2/G)
Artifact Creature - Elephant
3/3
Trample
Steam Powered CC (If CC was spent to cast this spell, it becomes steam powered)
When ~ enters the battlefield, if it was steam powered, put a +1/+1 counter on it.
The common leviathan 5(2/U)
Artifact Creature - Whale
5/5
Steam Powered C (If C was spent to cast this spell, it becomes steam powered)
When ~ enters the battlefield, if it was steam powered, put a +1/+1 counter on it.
~ can't attack unless it has a +1/+! counter on it
This could be a cool idea, but it seems way less grokkable. This is especially true when you consider 95% of mechanics that look like this are additional or alternative costs, not some weird threshold.
We could also get extravagant with this one :
Rainbow factory 2(2/G)(2/G)
sorcery
Steam Powered WUBRG (If WUBRG was spent to cast this spell, it becomes steam powered)
Search your library for up to five basic land cards with different names. Reveal those cards and put them into your hand. Then shuffle your library.
If ~ was steam powered, you may put those cards onto the battlefield instead
This variation would also allow us to put Steam-powered on non-hybrid cards. Although we might not want or need this, it would free up some of the very limited space we have for hybrid cards and allow for more sweet hybrid designs to fit into the set.
Mis-stoke 2U
instant
Steam powered C (If C was spent to cast this spell, it becomes steam powered)
Counter target spell unless it's controller pays 1. If ~ was steam powered, counter that spell unless it's controller pays C instead.
Draw a card
Yeah I'm not at all into the first idea.
As for the second, it has some potential but again it really muddies the water.
Also is there a new version of Magic Set Editor that has the C symbol?
Yes.
Edit: I just looked at some of the new cards in the multiverse cardlist and already I see cards that need serious tweaking/changing and/or are very underwhelming. Disciple Executioner a Common??
The cardfile is a bucket that holds all of the designs we've ever created for the set. Some of them are horrible, but they still go in there. Look at the skeleton if you want a better idea of what's actually being considered (it's currently very incomplete because that's how early we are in design).
As for Steam-powered, I can assure you, with the fixing the set had originally, it is do-able to cast some of the highest cost Steam-powered (although hard). And because of flavour fail, let's refrain from making anything like Rainbow Factory (in term of Steampower activation) because it just looks silly.
But I am OK with changing how Steam powered work personally (although we will have to rethink the power difference between the two levels. Steam Storm from the old set comes to mind as overpowered in the new setting.)
I basically agree with this sentiment.
First off, just a quick reminder that linear =/= parasitic. Steampowered cards costing ridiculous numbers like CCCCCCCC become more linear because they require to be specifically built around, but they do not become more parasitic because colorless mana has existed forever.
Secondly, the original Archester did feature enough mana fixing to allow the casting of 5 or 6 C spells (even in sealed!), but you did have to dedicate yourself to the strategy. IMO, this is a bit more interesting, and helps to differentiate the set from OGW which basically uses C spells as a "splash color".
All that said, I also agree that changing how steampowered works wouldn't be the end of the world. I just don't see it as a strict upgrade since I believe this new version is trying to solve a perceived problem rather than an actual one.
I think having a varied threshold of C for different steam powered card is necessary. It makes design more flexible, and it means there are usually a way to give a proper threshold to existing steam card to keep that card essentially the same.
I pretty much disagree on this point. While individual cards exist with the "if you paid X" mechanic, none have ever been keyworded this way and even fewer have be thresholds in the same way this one is. The fact that the language is so similar to Kicker already just makes this less and less grokable. The problem for me is that even after new players learn this is a threshold rather than a additional/alternative cost, they still have to do a whole bunch of calculating to figure out how to cast it. More on this below.
Plus it looks so good. And it's far less mathy and far more grockable. Just a fixed number of C is so easy to mentally process. Instead of "Okay, this costs 3(2/U)(2/U), so to steam power it I need 3+2+2 C, which is well let's see, 2+2=4 and 4+3=7, so I need a total of seven C. Alright, now how much C can I produce so far... one, two, three, four, five... so 7-5=2. Dang, I still need two more C to steam power this card. Whatever, I'll just cast it for 3UU.
Man, I really could not disagree more here.
Plus it looks so good.
I'm not really sure how this looks better, since IMO it looks a whole lot more confusing. "All or nothing" is a much cleaner concept IMO than a casting threshold on a card that already has a confusing enough casting cost.
And it's far less mathy and far more grockable.
Again, couldn't disagree more. First on the math aspect, I see this as more mathy than the original because the loss of the all-or-nothing aspect forces you to do more complicated calculations. (And can we at least assume new players are smart enough to add more than two numbers at a time, please?)
Here's what I mean: in your example you're saying there's complex math because players have to calculate 3(2/U)(2/U) into CCCCCCC? And they give up because they don't have enough colorless mana anyway? That hardly seems like a math problem and more like a design problem, and I wholeheartedly agree that in the original set we did not know how to design for steampowered at all. However, I'm just looking at the math aspect of this right now.
In my experience, players think about this far more in terms of what options they have, for instance players often think about Spectral Procession as costing either WWW, 2WW, 4W, or 6 (even though it's basically almost always one of the first two).
Your example card has three casting costs, 3UU, 5U, and 7. With old Steam powered, the answer of how to cast this card is quite simple: Only the 7 cost can be cast with steampowered and it's pretty easy to tell how much C I'm going to need (i.e. all of it). Done, simple IMO (well, as simple as colorless hybrids can get).
But let's say that I've got a neo-steampowered card with a steampowered cost of CCCC. Now I've got two different ways of steampowering the spell (CCCC1U and CCCC3). Each requires a different amount of total mana and having different color requirements. The thing that's messy is when you've got neo-steampowered requirements that spill over into your hybrid requirements, the math gets more complicated. I have 3 options to cast this spell but only 2 that steampower it, and I have to do the math for both. You could potentially limit the neo-SP requirements to never spill into the hybrid parts, but then why have hybrid in the fist place?
I'm not saying that this makes neo-SP a bad mechanic, I'm just arguing that it having "less math" makes no sense to me personally. Steam powering a (2/R)(2/R)(2/R)(2/R) card requires a player to count to 8, which is not a hard task since most players already start analyzing colorless hybrid costs in this manner. A neo-SP card requires them to think about what orientation of mana symbols allows them to pay CCCC, and then what the remainder mana cost is and the different ways to pay that too.
As for grokkability, I disagree here as well. As I said, old steam powered operates on all or nothing: either you're paying full price with C or not. There are still multiple ways of casting the spell, but any option with any colored mana is not going to count. I struggle thinking of any way that neo-SP is simpler than that. Don't get me wrong, it is easier to play with, but not at all easier to understand.
Changing steam powered is definitely on the table, but I'm having a hard time accepting this as our alternative. IMO it sacrifices a whole lot in terms of complexity and grokability for little gain in the gameplay department.
EDIT: You know what, maybe I'm thinking about this the wrong way. I like this new Steam powered if it ONLY went on NON-HYBRID cards. On hybrid cards the complex math compounds the already complicated mana costs, but on non-hybrid cards, there's basically no math problems at all. Plus, it would free up our hybrid slots for some more elegant designs. Hybrid then becomes a supporting color for SP, since the hybrid cards are easier to cast for a C mana base than for others. This could potentially be interesting. I might be back on Grim's suggestion (but again, I think we'd focus it in on only non-hybrids, having them be the rule rather than the exception).
It was at that moment that I realized: I'm kinda just making these things up. We can just write the rules the way we want them to work. People will have fun, and people will get it.
Don't get me wrong, it is easier to play with, but not at all easier to understand.
I fully understand you point and it is definitely something I overlooked. I was not thinking about the players. My main focus was about designing steam-powered cards without constraining our limited skeleton space; and later building steam-powered limited decks without dedicating a ton of cards to it in the card set again (the old Archester set had 2 cycles of lands, a cycle of 3-mana rocks, and no less than 16 cards throughout the file producing in some way colourless mana, about half of those producing more than one colourless mana at once). I believe this is an actual problem and not simply a perceived issue, as we could potentially open up some of the 31 slots used by the previous Archester for more interesting designs instead of needing them to support a theme. At 31 support cards, I feel safe saying it did warp considerably the set's design.
There may be better ways of doing this. I will keep pondering on this.
Changing steam powered is definitely on the table, but I'm having a hard time accepting this as our alternative. IMO it sacrifices a whole lot in terms of complexity and grokability for little gain in the gameplay department.
EDIT: You know what, maybe I'm thinking about this the wrong way. I like this new Steam powered if it ONLY went on NON-HYBRID cards. On hybrid cards the complex math compounds the already complicated mana costs, but on non-hybrid cards, there's basically no math problems at all. Plus, it would free up our hybrid slots for some more elegant designs. Hybrid then becomes a supporting color for SP, since the hybrid cards are easier to cast for a C mana base than for others. This could potentially be interesting. I might be back on Grim's suggestion (but again, I think we'd focus it in on only non-hybrids, having them be the rule rather than the exception).
Hmm, good thinking. Doing it this way would however require an overhaul of the set's skeleton. We better decide soon whether or not we are going to do such a significant change, as later on there will be a lot more stuff that will be affected by this. Also, if we do go this route, we might have to encourage multicoloured steam decks in limited, as steam will no longer have the luxury of being able to play all steam cards off a single mana base.
I fully understand you point and it is definitely something I overlooked. I was not thinking about the players. My main focus was about designing steam-powered cards without constraining our limited skeleton space; and later building steam-powered limited decks without dedicating a ton of cards to it in the card set again (the old Archester set had 2 cycles of lands, a cycle of 3-mana rocks, and no less than 16 cards throughout the file producing in some way colourless mana, about half of those producing more than one colourless mana at once). I believe this is an actual problem and not simply a perceived issue, as we could potentially open up some of the 31 slots used by the previous Archester for more interesting designs instead of needing them to support a theme. At 31 support cards, I feel safe saying it did warp considerably the set's design.
I understand your points. I didn't think about it from a space issue, but you're right. I think play wise the old steam powered works fine, but it does strain us on space.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"In the beginning, MTG Salvation switched to a new forum format.
This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move."
It was at that moment that I realized: I'm kinda just making these things up. We can just write the rules the way we want them to work. People will have fun, and people will get it.
In reference to how many cards produce colorless mana in the old archester, I'll point you towards OGW. It has ~16 sources and its accounting for things only having to cost a single colorless mana. If anything I think we might have been low in the old archester, not high.
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In reference to how many cards produce colorless mana in the old archester, I'll point you towards OGW. It has ~16 sources and its accounting for things only having to cost a single colorless mana. If anything I think we might have been low in the old archester, not high.
The difference is the quality of the fixers, not the volume. OGW has lots of C fixers, but all of them produce a single C. This makes it play like a sixth color that you have to splash for. In Archester, we had slightly fewer fixers but many of them tapped for multiple C. We had a land cycle that tapped for CC, and even cards that filtered 1 into C. This meant that you had to more specifically draft the archetype, but when you did you had access to costs like Cx5 or Cx6 much more easily.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"In the beginning, MTG Salvation switched to a new forum format.
This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move."
It was at that moment that I realized: I'm kinda just making these things up. We can just write the rules the way we want them to work. People will have fun, and people will get it.
In reference to how many cards produce colorless mana in the old archester, I'll point you towards OGW. It has ~16 sources and its accounting for things only having to cost a single colorless mana. If anything I think we might have been low in the old archester, not high.
The difference is the quality of the fixers, not the volume. OGW has lots of C fixers, but all of them produce a single C. This makes it play like a sixth color that you have to splash for. In Archester, we had slightly fewer fixers but many of them tapped for multiple C. We had a land cycle that tapped for CC, and even cards that filtered 1 into C. This meant that you had to more specifically draft the archetype, but when you did you had access to costs like Cx5 or Cx6 much more easily.
True, I was simply pointing out that the concentration of C wasn't as high as it seemed, especially taking the fact that it's a large set rather than a small set into consideration.
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Alright well my plan was to continue through the rest of the commons, but because of the very relevant points brought up by everyone I guess we'll halt that for a while.
Steampowered
So there are a lot of pros and cons to making a change to Steam powered. For reference, the original Steam powered will be SP.0, with all other variations getting a new name.
SP.0 has three major advantages (plus a few minor ones). The first is that it makes the best use of two-brid costs. Right now colorless mana and two-brids are inherently linked. This is great, since it helps bring two major themes of the set together. The second is that SP.0 is simple, making it incredibly easy to understand. Thirdly, SP.0 pushes play in the direction of "making tons of C", which is unique (especially since, after playing the set, OGW is very much about splashing for C). Additionally, SP.0 can easily be used on activated abilities, since the logic carries over.
SP.0's biggest weakness is that it competes for space with simple/elegant hybrid designs. It's naturally limited as to the number of cards we can print for it, which hampers its ability to work as a major set mechanic. Its also incredibly difficult to balance, and developing cards with lots of two-brid symbols is already hard enough.
The main thing we gain by changing SP is that we gain the ability to put it anywhere. This is a huge advantage, letting us strengthen SP's presence in the set while also freeing up valuable hybrid slots. However, the alternatives come with their own issues. Having a SP value that changes card to card could be very confusing, and overall difficult to parse if it appears on many cards (which is what we want). If we set it at a fixed value, we lose the benefit of encouraging making lots of C.
Here are some different ideas for SP replacements that try to fix some of the issues I see with the current suggestion. As always feel free to suggest your own stuff too, but let's work to try and fix the issues I brought up above (because if we can, then replacing SP becomes a huge upgrade). Since this has major ramifications on the set, I really want to hear all of your feedback on this.
Idea 1: The current suggestion, but the number is always the same as the generic mana requirement of the spell. For example:
Steam Cancel1UU
Instant (C)
Steam powered 1 (This spell is steam powered as long as you spent C to cast it.)
Counter target spell.
If ~ was steam powered, draw a card.
Steam Burn2R
Instant (U)
Steam powered 2 (This spell is steam powered as long as you spent CC to cast it.)
~ deals 3 damage to target creature or player.
If ~ was steam powered, it deals 3 damage to another target creature or player.
Steam Walk4UU
Sorcery (M)
Steam powered 4 (This spell is steam powered as long as you spent CCCC to cast it.)
Take an extra turn after this one.
If ~ was steam powered, untap each permanent you control.
The idea here is that we promote the production of lots of C by requiring as much as possible. We keep the complexity down because the number is always going to match the mana cost. Downsides are that expensive commons become very hard to make, however it also means we can scale the bonus directly with the amount of C required.
Idea 2: Take the converge route
Steam Draw3U
Instant (C) Steam powered - Scry X, where X is the amount of C spent to cast ~.
Draw two cards.
Steam Beater2RR
Creature - Human Warrior (U) Steam powered - ~ enters the battlefield with an additional +1/+1 counter on it for each C spent to cast it.
Haste
3/3
Steam BlazeXXR
Sorcery (R) Steam powered - Copy ~ for each C spent to cast it. You may choose new targets for the copies.
~ deals X damage to target creature or player.
The pros here are that we get a much cleaner ability (with no variable required) that still encourages making lots of Cand can still go on colorless hybrid cards! The downside is we basically lose all of our old design space and have to replace it with brand new designs, ones that work with a potentially scaling effect. (This could also possibly lead to us scrapping the buckshot cycle )
Trash
The fact that OGW did away with processors gave me a yearning to play with the Fuel concept, but after some thinking I've come to the conclusion that (at least for now) we need to focus on the simplicity that is the Trash mechanic. Let's take a look at what we've stuffed into the set so far:
Generic hybrids (makes deckbuilding, drafting, and sequencing more complicated)
Steam powered (makes building mana bases more complicated)
Upgrade (Easy core concept if you get equipment, but with lots of board complexity especially when paired with the tap/untap theme we're looking at)
Windup (Also lots of board complexity with both tapping and counters)
Exploit (turns a lot of creatures into super modal spells)
Subthemes galore! (Artifacts in general, Thopter tokens, +1/+1 counters, tap/untap, land depletion?, artifact hate?, the list goes on)
The graveyard is basically the only part of the set we haven't milked for all the complexity its worth. With this in mind, I think Trash needs to stay simple. We can explore other options later if we need to, but for now we're using "trash mastery"
Note: This decision has also lead me to deciding that Windup needs to stick with creatures. Not only is the cost of tapping two creatures integral to balancing the mechanic, but the whole artifact/non-artifact thing adds to the complexity already. We don't need more for now.
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This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move."
It was at that moment that I realized: I'm kinda just making these things up. We can just write the rules the way we want them to work. People will have fun, and people will get it.
Idea 1
I do not really like this one at first glance. The connection between the variable amount of C for SP and the generic mana cost of the spell is not immediately apparent, and when it is pointed out, it feels a little bit arbitrary. The complexity to understand the ability (that different SteamPowered cards can require different amount of C) is the same as if we did not have that must-equal-generic-mana design limitation. To me, the limitation feels more like a design challenge than something really meaningful to the player. As far as this option is considered, I would rather go back to the version I posted earlier, without that design restriction.
Idea 2
I like this one a lot more. We must be aware however that there is only limited design space for scaling effects, and that it will most probably end up with a similar feeling as Converge and Devotion.
To add slight variety, and since the template for the SP ability word is not so well defined, could we have two templates for the ability? One that scales, kept mostly at uncommon and rare where needed, and one that triggers of a single C for simplicity's sake between commons and uncommons. Would it be a stretch to have both the following in the set at once? (Note, the Naturalize is weaker since we are in an artifact world, where even weak it will stay relevant)
Steam common Naturalize 2G
Sorcery {C} Steam-Powered - Destroy target artifact or enchantment. If C was spent to cast ~, gain life equal to its mana cost.
Steam uncommon bar the doors 2W
Instant {U}
Target creature gains +1/+4 until end of turn. Steam-powered - That creature can also block an additional creature this turn for each C spent to cast ~.
With an ability word, we can be a little looser as to what constitutes a proper template.
"If C was spent to cast ~"
"For each C spent to cast ~"
We would be overloading the keyword with 2 different yet similar meanings, but this would actually lower the complexity if we restrict the use of "For each" at the lower rarities, and it would ease new players into the more powerful "For each" SP rares later on.
Steam-Powered - I vote for Idea 2. I think grimGrendel's idea of scaling at higher rarities is a good idea. It seems like it'd ease mana base decisions - either you (ignore it) splash it or go all in.
Upgrade - Right now Upgrade isn't getting the respect it deserves. I think this should be a premier mechanic alongside Steam-Powered. If that means cutting something else to give it space, then so be it. Or it should just be altogether dropped. But Upgrade shouldn't be a half-assed mechanic.
Windup - You seem to be complaining about complexity while at the same time complicating what was once a simple ability. Return to a semblance of the original version and you'll regain some complexity points.
Two-Brid - I'm sure there's a WotC article that says otherwise, but imo two-brid (unlike hybrid) actually makes drafting easier (certainly easier than Devoid) and smooths out mana bases. Especially in a limited environment with C as a main player.
Artifact
Windup (T, Tap an untapped creature you control: Put a +1/+1 counter or charge counter on each artifact tapped this way. Windup only as a sorcery.)
T, remove two charge counter from ~ : Draw a card.
Ironman armour 4
Artifact
Windup (T, Tap an untapped creature you control: Put a +1/+1 counter or charge counter on each artifact tapped this way. Windup only as a sorcery.)
~ enters the battlefield with 2 charge counters on it.
2, T : Target creature gets +X/+X until end of turn, where X is the number of charge counters on ~
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What are our thoughts on "Wastes"?
Should we include it in the set? It would substaintially improve Steampowered and our other colorless mana matters cards.
Would it bring us too close to OGW & BFZ?
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(W/U)(U/R)(R/W)(W/U)(U/R)(R/W)(W/U)(U/R)(R/W)(W/U)(U/R)(R/W)(W/U)(U/R)(R/W)(W/U)(U/R)(R/W)(W/U)(U/R)(R/W)(W/U)(U/R)(R/W)(W/U)(U/R)(R/W)(W/U)(U/R)(R/W)(W/U)(U/R)(R/W)(W/U)(U/R)(R/W)(W/U)
Test of Courage (Common)
(2/W)
Instant
Target creature gets +1/+2 until end of turn. If WW was spent to cast Test of Courage, prevent all damage that would be dealt to that creature this turn.
Think Ahead (Common)
(2/U)
Instant
Scry 2. (Look at the top two cards of your library, then put any number of them on the bottom of your library and the rest on top in any order.)
If UU was spent to cast Think Ahead, draw a card.
Weaken (Common)
(2/B)
Instant
Remove a counter from target permanent. If BB was spent to cast Weaken, remove all counters from that permanent instead.
Scorch (Common)
(2/R)
Instant
Scorch deals 1 damage to target creature without flying. If RR was spent to cast Scorch, it deals 1 damage to each creature without flying instead.
Venture Forth (Common)
(2/G)
Instant
Search your library for a basic land card, reveal it, and put it into your hand. If GG was spent to cast Venture Forth, put that card onto the battlefield tapped instead. Then shuffle your library.
My though is that for the Depletion subtheme, we can use make use of them in the same way Spreading Seas was used.
Hard Industrialisation
1U
Enchantment
Enchant land
Enchanted land is a Wastes and produce one additional colorless when tapped as long as it's a Wastes.
That or the Robber Baron might play with this.
Robber Baron 2UB
Creature - Human Noble
1U: Put a depletion counter on target land. It's controller draws a card (A land with a depletion counter is a Wastes for as long as it has a depletion counter)
2/3
That is probably the closest we are gonna get imo to Wastes.
MODERN:
RG Shamanism RG
WUG Blades of the Avatars WUG
LEGACY:
WUBRG Cascabalance WUBRG
Made by the amazing Traproot
"Some say the clockwork doesn't speak... I say they are deaf to it's voice." -Daeren, Artificer Druid.
Archester Revival (Custom Steampunk set)
Vitiation (Common)
1B
Enchantment – Aura
Enchant land
Enchanted land produces C instead of any other type and amount.
Whenever enchanted land becomes tapped, its controller loses 1 life.
Nexo’s Vision (Common)
U
Instant
All lands produce C instead of any other type and amount until end of turn.
Draw a card.
Apax Digsite (Uncommon)
3U
Enchantment – Aura
Enchant land
When Apax Digsite enters the battlefield, draw two cards.
Enchanted land produces CC instead of any other type and amount.
Apax Smokestack (Uncommon)
2B
Enchantment – Aura
Enchant land
Enchanted land produces C instead of any other type and amount.
Whenever enchanted land becomes tapped, its controller loses 2 life.
Arcane Runoff (Rare)
2UB
Enchantment
Nonbasic lands produce C instead of any other type and amount.
Plus a land that produces C.
Apax Nexus (Rare)
Land
T: Add one mana of any type to your mana pool. You lose 1 life.
Line Foreman (Common)
4W
Creature – Assembly-Worker Human
1/5
Vigilance
T: Target Assembly-Worker creature gets +1/+1 until end of turn.
Pipe Skimmer (Common)
1U
Creature – Assembly-Worker Merfolk
1/2
T: Target Assembly-Worker creature gets +1/+1 until end of turn.
Drudge Drone (Common)
2B
Creature – Assembly-Worker Insect
1/4
T: Target Assembly-Worker creature gets +1/+1 until end of turn.
Goblin Laborer (Common)
R
Creature – Assembly-Worker Goblin
1/1
Haste
T: Target Assembly-Worker creature gets +1/+1 until end of turn.
Scaffold Scalers (Common)
1G
Creature – Assembly-Worker Elf
1/3
Reach
T: Target Assembly-Worker creature gets +1/+1 until end of turn.
Also, what's ya'll opinion of current Windup in light of spoiled Cohort?
It should also be noted that if we start doing Windup triggers (like "Whenever you windup ~, creatures you control gain lifelink until end of turn"), Windup becomes almost exactly a Cohort variant. Whether this is fine or not is left for debate. There are many quasi-variants of existing keywords (ex. kicker) in the history of Magic, and I do not think we should shy away from using one if it fits what we need.
Generating magic cards using deep, recurrent neural network
-Comicalflop
EDH Decks:
Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
Tajic, Blade of the Legion
Oloro, Ageless Ascetic
Kozilek, Butcher of Truth
Purphoros, God of the Forge
Ezuri, Renegade Leader 1v1
Prossh, Skyraider of Kher 1v1
Hythonia the Cruel
Trying to build:
Jenara, Asura of War
Designing a Custom Set:
Clash of the Cultures: 5 Wedges, 5 Cultures
Providing Artwork for:
Archester: Frontier of Steam
(U/B) has always had some kind of theme like this, but I like this implementation. There are two comments I have. 1) the old archester set also turned the lands into artifacts, which offered up some more interaction (both positive and negative) with the rest of the set. Think we could work that in here? 2) This pushes Black more heavily into steam powered territory. Is this something we want?
Oh man, I totally forgot about assembly workers! They were a cool tribal theme in the original set. Right now we're so strapped for space I'm not sure we can get them into every color like this. I would still like to see the original Assembly-Worker plus maybe a few more tweaks in the artifact section.
It's a pretty big coincidence, however I think the mechanics are distinct enough that I'm not really bothered. While I like grimGrendel's idea of incorporating non-creature artifacts, I'm concerned it might be too confusing as currently suggested (i.e. putting charge counters on creatures is a possibility now).
The friction was only because there were a decent number of retroactively changed cards. Overall though, the artwork you found for the set was excellent and I would definitely like to work with you again. This time, since we're far earlier in the process, we can hopefully figure out art issues ahead of time and design in such a way that compliments your work rather than fights it. However, we're also a bit too early in the project to really be thinking seriously about art.
Since this is a pretty heavily dedicated design thread, maybe I should look at creating a creative revival thread? That way we can start talking about story and world building and art over there.
This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move."
Comic Book Set
Archester: Frontier of Steam (A steampunk set!)
A Good Place to Start Designing
Artifact Creature - Elephant
3/3
Trample
Steam Powered CC (If CC was spent to cast this spell, it becomes steam powered)
When ~ enters the battlefield, if it was steam powered, put a +1/+1 counter on it.
Artifact Creature - Whale
5/5
Steam Powered C (If C was spent to cast this spell, it becomes steam powered)
When ~ enters the battlefield, if it was steam powered, put a +1/+1 counter on it.
~ can't attack unless it has a +1/+! counter on it
We could also get extravagant with this one :
sorcery
Steam Powered WUBRG (If WUBRG was spent to cast this spell, it becomes steam powered)
Search your library for up to five basic land cards with different names. Reveal those cards and put them into your hand. Then shuffle your library.
If ~ was steam powered, you may put those cards onto the battlefield instead
This variation would also allow us to put Steam-powered on non-hybrid cards. Although we might not want or need this, it would free up some of the very limited space we have for hybrid cards and allow for more sweet hybrid designs to fit into the set.
instant
Steam powered C (If C was spent to cast this spell, it becomes steam powered)
Counter target spell unless it's controller pays 1. If ~ was steam powered, counter that spell unless it's controller pays C instead.
Draw a card
Generating magic cards using deep, recurrent neural network
Also is there a new version of Magic Set Editor that has the C symbol?
Edit: I just looked at some of the new cards in the multiverse cardlist and already I see cards that need serious tweaking/changing and/or are very underwhelming. Disciple Executioner a Common??
EDH Decks:
Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
Tajic, Blade of the Legion
Oloro, Ageless Ascetic
Kozilek, Butcher of Truth
Purphoros, God of the Forge
Ezuri, Renegade Leader 1v1
Prossh, Skyraider of Kher 1v1
Hythonia the Cruel
Trying to build:
Jenara, Asura of War
Designing a Custom Set:
Clash of the Cultures: 5 Wedges, 5 Cultures
Providing Artwork for:
Archester: Frontier of Steam
Apax Factory (Uncommon)
Land
T: Add C to your mana pool.
X: Apax Factory becomes an X/X artifact creature until end of turn. It's still a land.
To answer both, I don't see why not.
I think this is a great idea. Imo, it should be CC or more.
First off, Mis-stoke, apart from the draw a card, which is imo overboard, wow! If not the definition of Steam powered, it has to find some way in the rares as a mechanical Singleton.
As for Steam-powered, I can assure you, with the fixing the set had originally, it is do-able to cast some of the highest cost Steam-powered (although hard). And because of flavour fail, let's refrain from making anything like Rainbow Factory (in term of Steampower activation) because it just looks silly.
But I am OK with changing how Steam powered work personally (although we will have to rethink the power difference between the two levels. Steam Storm from the old set comes to mind as overpowered in the new setting.)
MODERN:
RG Shamanism RG
WUG Blades of the Avatars WUG
LEGACY:
WUBRG Cascabalance WUBRG
Made by the amazing Traproot
"Some say the clockwork doesn't speak... I say they are deaf to it's voice." -Daeren, Artificer Druid.
Archester Revival (Custom Steampunk set)
Sorcery
Steam Powered CCCC (If CCCC was spent to cast this spell, it becomes steam powered)
Steam Storm deals 5 damage to each creature and each planeswalker. If ~ was steam powered, destroy each nonland permanent instead.
I think having a varied threshold of C for different steam powered card is necessary. It makes design more flexible, and it means there are usually a way to give a proper threshold to existing steam card to keep that card essentially the same.
Generating magic cards using deep, recurrent neural network
No. Well, other than a "red" card superwrathing, but the Steam Powered cost is otherwise really nice.
Plus it looks so good. And it's far less mathy and far more grockable. Just a fixed number of C is so easy to mentally process. Instead of "Okay, this costs 3(2/U)(2/U), so to steam power it I need 3+2+2 C, which is well let's see, 2+2=4 and 4+3=7, so I need a total of seven C. Alright, now how much C can I produce so far... one, two, three, four, five... so 7-5=2. Dang, I still need two more C to steam power this card. Whatever, I'll just cast it for 3UU.
Yeah I'm not at all into the first idea.
As for the second, it has some potential but again it really muddies the water.
Yes.
The cardfile is a bucket that holds all of the designs we've ever created for the set. Some of them are horrible, but they still go in there. Look at the skeleton if you want a better idea of what's actually being considered (it's currently very incomplete because that's how early we are in design).
We could, but not at common.
I'm more open to a static threshold.
I basically agree with this sentiment.
First off, just a quick reminder that linear =/= parasitic. Steampowered cards costing ridiculous numbers like CCCCCCCC become more linear because they require to be specifically built around, but they do not become more parasitic because colorless mana has existed forever.
Secondly, the original Archester did feature enough mana fixing to allow the casting of 5 or 6 C spells (even in sealed!), but you did have to dedicate yourself to the strategy. IMO, this is a bit more interesting, and helps to differentiate the set from OGW which basically uses C spells as a "splash color".
All that said, I also agree that changing how steampowered works wouldn't be the end of the world. I just don't see it as a strict upgrade since I believe this new version is trying to solve a perceived problem rather than an actual one.
I pretty much disagree on this point. While individual cards exist with the "if you paid X" mechanic, none have ever been keyworded this way and even fewer have be thresholds in the same way this one is. The fact that the language is so similar to Kicker already just makes this less and less grokable. The problem for me is that even after new players learn this is a threshold rather than a additional/alternative cost, they still have to do a whole bunch of calculating to figure out how to cast it. More on this below.
Man, I really could not disagree more here.
I'm not really sure how this looks better, since IMO it looks a whole lot more confusing. "All or nothing" is a much cleaner concept IMO than a casting threshold on a card that already has a confusing enough casting cost.
Again, couldn't disagree more. First on the math aspect, I see this as more mathy than the original because the loss of the all-or-nothing aspect forces you to do more complicated calculations. (And can we at least assume new players are smart enough to add more than two numbers at a time, please?)
In my experience, players think about this far more in terms of what options they have, for instance players often think about Spectral Procession as costing either WWW, 2WW, 4W, or 6 (even though it's basically almost always one of the first two).
Your example card has three casting costs, 3UU, 5U, and 7. With old Steam powered, the answer of how to cast this card is quite simple: Only the 7 cost can be cast with steampowered and it's pretty easy to tell how much C I'm going to need (i.e. all of it). Done, simple IMO (well, as simple as colorless hybrids can get).
But let's say that I've got a neo-steampowered card with a steampowered cost of CCCC. Now I've got two different ways of steampowering the spell (CCCC1U and CCCC3). Each requires a different amount of total mana and having different color requirements. The thing that's messy is when you've got neo-steampowered requirements that spill over into your hybrid requirements, the math gets more complicated. I have 3 options to cast this spell but only 2 that steampower it, and I have to do the math for both. You could potentially limit the neo-SP requirements to never spill into the hybrid parts, but then why have hybrid in the fist place?
I'm not saying that this makes neo-SP a bad mechanic, I'm just arguing that it having "less math" makes no sense to me personally. Steam powering a (2/R)(2/R)(2/R)(2/R) card requires a player to count to 8, which is not a hard task since most players already start analyzing colorless hybrid costs in this manner. A neo-SP card requires them to think about what orientation of mana symbols allows them to pay CCCC, and then what the remainder mana cost is and the different ways to pay that too.
As for grokkability, I disagree here as well. As I said, old steam powered operates on all or nothing: either you're paying full price with C or not. There are still multiple ways of casting the spell, but any option with any colored mana is not going to count. I struggle thinking of any way that neo-SP is simpler than that. Don't get me wrong, it is easier to play with, but not at all easier to understand.
Changing steam powered is definitely on the table, but I'm having a hard time accepting this as our alternative. IMO it sacrifices a whole lot in terms of complexity and grokability for little gain in the gameplay department.
EDIT: You know what, maybe I'm thinking about this the wrong way. I like this new Steam powered if it ONLY went on NON-HYBRID cards. On hybrid cards the complex math compounds the already complicated mana costs, but on non-hybrid cards, there's basically no math problems at all. Plus, it would free up our hybrid slots for some more elegant designs. Hybrid then becomes a supporting color for SP, since the hybrid cards are easier to cast for a C mana base than for others. This could potentially be interesting. I might be back on Grim's suggestion (but again, I think we'd focus it in on only non-hybrids, having them be the rule rather than the exception).
This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move."
Comic Book Set
Archester: Frontier of Steam (A steampunk set!)
A Good Place to Start Designing
There may be better ways of doing this. I will keep pondering on this. Hmm, good thinking. Doing it this way would however require an overhaul of the set's skeleton. We better decide soon whether or not we are going to do such a significant change, as later on there will be a lot more stuff that will be affected by this. Also, if we do go this route, we might have to encourage multicoloured steam decks in limited, as steam will no longer have the luxury of being able to play all steam cards off a single mana base.
Generating magic cards using deep, recurrent neural network
This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move."
Comic Book Set
Archester: Frontier of Steam (A steampunk set!)
A Good Place to Start Designing
Sig by Rivenor
Cube. The best way to play Magic. PERIOD. Come over and check it out. Also, check out my Peasant Split Card Cube.
The World of Pokemon RPG has been rebooted. Come over and check it out.
Set Creation Projects: Archester: Frontier of Steam Come over and check out our AWESOME Steampunk set.
(W/U)(U/R)(R/W)(W/U)(U/R)(R/W)(W/U)(U/R)(R/W)(W/U)(U/R)(R/W)(W/U)(U/R)(R/W)(W/U)(U/R)(R/W)(W/U)(U/R)(R/W)(W/U)(U/R)(R/W)(W/U)(U/R)(R/W)(W/U)(U/R)(R/W)(W/U)(U/R)(R/W)(W/U)(U/R)(R/W)(W/U)
This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move."
Comic Book Set
Archester: Frontier of Steam (A steampunk set!)
A Good Place to Start Designing
True, I was simply pointing out that the concentration of C wasn't as high as it seemed, especially taking the fact that it's a large set rather than a small set into consideration.
Sig by Rivenor
Cube. The best way to play Magic. PERIOD. Come over and check it out. Also, check out my Peasant Split Card Cube.
The World of Pokemon RPG has been rebooted. Come over and check it out.
Set Creation Projects: Archester: Frontier of Steam Come over and check out our AWESOME Steampunk set.
(W/U)(U/R)(R/W)(W/U)(U/R)(R/W)(W/U)(U/R)(R/W)(W/U)(U/R)(R/W)(W/U)(U/R)(R/W)(W/U)(U/R)(R/W)(W/U)(U/R)(R/W)(W/U)(U/R)(R/W)(W/U)(U/R)(R/W)(W/U)(U/R)(R/W)(W/U)(U/R)(R/W)(W/U)(U/R)(R/W)(W/U)
Steampowered
So there are a lot of pros and cons to making a change to Steam powered. For reference, the original Steam powered will be SP.0, with all other variations getting a new name.
SP.0 has three major advantages (plus a few minor ones). The first is that it makes the best use of two-brid costs. Right now colorless mana and two-brids are inherently linked. This is great, since it helps bring two major themes of the set together. The second is that SP.0 is simple, making it incredibly easy to understand. Thirdly, SP.0 pushes play in the direction of "making tons of C", which is unique (especially since, after playing the set, OGW is very much about splashing for C). Additionally, SP.0 can easily be used on activated abilities, since the logic carries over.
SP.0's biggest weakness is that it competes for space with simple/elegant hybrid designs. It's naturally limited as to the number of cards we can print for it, which hampers its ability to work as a major set mechanic. Its also incredibly difficult to balance, and developing cards with lots of two-brid symbols is already hard enough.
The main thing we gain by changing SP is that we gain the ability to put it anywhere. This is a huge advantage, letting us strengthen SP's presence in the set while also freeing up valuable hybrid slots. However, the alternatives come with their own issues. Having a SP value that changes card to card could be very confusing, and overall difficult to parse if it appears on many cards (which is what we want). If we set it at a fixed value, we lose the benefit of encouraging making lots of C.
Here are some different ideas for SP replacements that try to fix some of the issues I see with the current suggestion. As always feel free to suggest your own stuff too, but let's work to try and fix the issues I brought up above (because if we can, then replacing SP becomes a huge upgrade). Since this has major ramifications on the set, I really want to hear all of your feedback on this.
Idea 1: The current suggestion, but the number is always the same as the generic mana requirement of the spell. For example:
Steam Cancel 1UU
Instant (C)
Steam powered 1 (This spell is steam powered as long as you spent C to cast it.)
Counter target spell.
If ~ was steam powered, draw a card.
Steam Burn 2R
Instant (U)
Steam powered 2 (This spell is steam powered as long as you spent CC to cast it.)
~ deals 3 damage to target creature or player.
If ~ was steam powered, it deals 3 damage to another target creature or player.
Steam Walk 4UU
Sorcery (M)
Steam powered 4 (This spell is steam powered as long as you spent CCCC to cast it.)
Take an extra turn after this one.
If ~ was steam powered, untap each permanent you control.
The idea here is that we promote the production of lots of C by requiring as much as possible. We keep the complexity down because the number is always going to match the mana cost. Downsides are that expensive commons become very hard to make, however it also means we can scale the bonus directly with the amount of C required.
Idea 2: Take the converge route
Steam Draw 3U
Instant (C)
Steam powered - Scry X, where X is the amount of C spent to cast ~.
Draw two cards.
Steam Beater 2RR
Creature - Human Warrior (U)
Steam powered - ~ enters the battlefield with an additional +1/+1 counter on it for each C spent to cast it.
Haste
3/3
Steam Blaze XXR
Sorcery (R)
Steam powered - Copy ~ for each C spent to cast it. You may choose new targets for the copies.
~ deals X damage to target creature or player.
The pros here are that we get a much cleaner ability (with no variable required) that still encourages making lots of C and can still go on colorless hybrid cards! The downside is we basically lose all of our old design space and have to replace it with brand new designs, ones that work with a potentially scaling effect. (This could also possibly lead to us scrapping the buckshot cycle )
Trash
The fact that OGW did away with processors gave me a yearning to play with the Fuel concept, but after some thinking I've come to the conclusion that (at least for now) we need to focus on the simplicity that is the Trash mechanic. Let's take a look at what we've stuffed into the set so far:
The graveyard is basically the only part of the set we haven't milked for all the complexity its worth. With this in mind, I think Trash needs to stay simple. We can explore other options later if we need to, but for now we're using "trash mastery"
Note: This decision has also lead me to deciding that Windup needs to stick with creatures. Not only is the cost of tapping two creatures integral to balancing the mechanic, but the whole artifact/non-artifact thing adds to the complexity already. We don't need more for now.
This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move."
Comic Book Set
Archester: Frontier of Steam (A steampunk set!)
A Good Place to Start Designing
I do not really like this one at first glance. The connection between the variable amount of C for SP and the generic mana cost of the spell is not immediately apparent, and when it is pointed out, it feels a little bit arbitrary. The complexity to understand the ability (that different SteamPowered cards can require different amount of C) is the same as if we did not have that must-equal-generic-mana design limitation. To me, the limitation feels more like a design challenge than something really meaningful to the player. As far as this option is considered, I would rather go back to the version I posted earlier, without that design restriction.
Idea 2
I like this one a lot more. We must be aware however that there is only limited design space for scaling effects, and that it will most probably end up with a similar feeling as Converge and Devotion.
To add slight variety, and since the template for the SP ability word is not so well defined, could we have two templates for the ability? One that scales, kept mostly at uncommon and rare where needed, and one that triggers of a single C for simplicity's sake between commons and uncommons. Would it be a stretch to have both the following in the set at once? (Note, the Naturalize is weaker since we are in an artifact world, where even weak it will stay relevant)
Steam common Naturalize 2G
Sorcery {C}
Steam-Powered - Destroy target artifact or enchantment. If C was spent to cast ~, gain life equal to its mana cost.
Steam uncommon bar the doors 2W
Instant {U}
Target creature gains +1/+4 until end of turn.
Steam-powered - That creature can also block an additional creature this turn for each C spent to cast ~.
With an ability word, we can be a little looser as to what constitutes a proper template.
"If C was spent to cast ~"
"For each C spent to cast ~"
We would be overloading the keyword with 2 different yet similar meanings, but this would actually lower the complexity if we restrict the use of "For each" at the lower rarities, and it would ease new players into the more powerful "For each" SP rares later on.
Trash
Sure!
Windup (only on creatures)
Sure!
Generating magic cards using deep, recurrent neural network
Upgrade - Right now Upgrade isn't getting the respect it deserves. I think this should be a premier mechanic alongside Steam-Powered. If that means cutting something else to give it space, then so be it. Or it should just be altogether dropped. But Upgrade shouldn't be a half-assed mechanic.
Exploit - Have we considered a "more red" version of this that allows sacking creature or land? Dredge, Ragamuffyn, Aggressive Mining, Magma Rift, Need for Speed, Hammer of Purphoros, etc.
Trash - Have we considered Tarmogoyf-Trash?
Windup - You seem to be complaining about complexity while at the same time complicating what was once a simple ability. Return to a semblance of the original version and you'll regain some complexity points.
Two-Brid - I'm sure there's a WotC article that says otherwise, but imo two-brid (unlike hybrid) actually makes drafting easier (certainly easier than Devoid) and smooths out mana bases. Especially in a limited environment with C as a main player.