To all rules gurus and high-level judges, please confirm that my syphon ability works as intended.
Syphon is a static ability that lets you tap your opponents' lands to help pay for your spells. Only creature, enchantment, and sorcery cards have syphon.
Pyroclastic Surge2RR Sorcery (Uncommon) Syphon (For each opponent, you may tap up to two lands that player controls for mana. Spend this mana only to cast this spell.) If you control a Mountain, Pyroclastic Surge deals 2 damage to each creature and each player.
Update 1:
Pyroclastic Surge2RR Sorcery (Uncommon) Syphon (You may tap up to two lands you don't control while casting this spell. Each land tapped this way reduces this spell's cost by 1 or by one mana of any type that land could produce.) If you control a Mountain, Pyroclastic Surge deals 2 damage to each creature and each player.
Update 2:
Pyroclastic Surge2RR Sorcery (Uncommon) Syphon 2 (As you cast this spell, tap up to two lands you don't control. Each land tapped this way reduces this spell's cost by 1 or by one mana of any color that land could produce.) If you control a Mountain, Pyroclastic Surge deals 2 damage to each creature and each player.
Update 3:
Pyroclastic Surge2RR Sorcery (Uncommon) Syphon 2 (As you cast this spell, tap up to two untapped lands you don't control. Each land tapped this way reduces this spell's cost by 1 or by one mana of any color that land could produce.) If you control a Mountain, Pyroclastic Surge deals 2 damage to each creature and each player.
The official rules for the syphon ability are as follows:
702.XX. Syphon 702.XXa Syphon is a static ability that functions while the spell is on the stack. "Syphon" means "As an additional cost to cast this spell, you may tap up to two untapped lands each of your opponents control. Each land tapped this way adds to your mana pool one mana of any color that land could produce. This mana can only be used to cast this spell." Using the syphon ability follows the rules for paying additional costs in rules 601.2b and 601.2e-g.
702.XXa Syphon is a static ability that functions while the spell is on the stack. "Syphon" means "As an additional cost to cast this spell, you may tap up to two untapped lands you don't control. Each land tapped this way reduces the cost to cast this spell by 1 or by one mana of any type that land could produce." Using the syphon ability follows the rules for paying additional costs in rules 601.2b and 601.2e-g.
702.XXa Syphon is a static ability that functions while the spell is on the stack. "Syphon N" means "As an additional cost to cast this spell, you may tap up to N untapped lands you don't control. Each land tapped this way reduces the cost to cast this spell by 1 or by one mana of any color that land could produce." Using the syphon ability follows the rules for paying additional costs in rules 601.2b and 601.2e-g.
Example: You cast Pyroclastic Surge, a spell with syphon that costs 2RR. You announce that you're going to tap opponent A's untapped Halimar Depths and opponent B's untapped Mountain to help pay for it. The Halimar Depths reduces the spell's cost by 1. You choose whether the Mountain reduces the spell's cost by 1 or R. Then the lands become tapped as you pay Pyroclastic Surge's cost.
Doesn't the lack of manaburn make Syphon a lot worse?
It's a neat ability and all, but IDK if it would be competitive since it's so easy to stop. Although, it does prevent the opponent's from bluffing with instants.
Please explain. Do you mean that your opponents could tap their lands in response to you casting a spell with syphon, because I'm 99% sure that they can't. I don't think it's easy to stop at all (apart from your opponents using all of their mana on their turns). That's why I need a rules guru or high-level judge to confirm.
Please explain. Do you mean that your opponents could tap their lands in response to you casting a spell with syphon, because I'm 99% sure that they can't. I don't think it's easy to stop at all (apart from your opponents using all of their mana on their turns). That's why I need a rules guru or high-level judge to confirm.
Na, I mean they can tap all their lands at the end of their turn so you cant syphon their lands.
Oh, OK. They can do that if they don't have instants to play on your turn. But there are cards in my set that get around that, such as the following cycle:
Tireless Explorer:1mana::symw: Creature – Human Soldier Scout (Common) , Untap a tapped land an opponent controls: Add one mana of any type that land could produce to your mana pool. Rebirth :1mana::symw: (You may cast this card from your graveyard for its rebirth cost. If you do, it enters the battlefield with a death counter on it. If this creature would leave the battlefield, if it has a death counter on it, exile it instead.) 1/1
Ceaseless Explorer:1mana::symu: Creature – Merfolk Scout (Common) , Untap a tapped land an opponent controls: Add one mana of any type that land could produce to your mana pool.
Rebirth :1mana::symu: (You may cast this card from your graveyard for its rebirth cost. If you do, it enters the battlefield with a death counter on it. If this creature would leave the battlefield, if it has a death counter on it, exile it instead.) 1/1
Restless Explorer:1mana::symb: Creature – Zombie Scout (Common) , Untap a tapped land an opponent controls: Add one mana of any type that land could produce to your mana pool.
Rebirth :1mana::symb: (You may cast this card from your graveyard for its rebirth cost. If you do, it enters the battlefield with a death counter on it. If this creature would leave the battlefield, if it has a death counter on it, exile it instead.) 1/1
Reckless Explorer:1mana::symr: Creature – Dwarf Scout (Common) , Untap a tapped land an opponent controls: Add one mana of any type that land could produce to your mana pool.
Rebirth :1mana::symr: (You may cast this card from your graveyard for its rebirth cost. If you do, it enters the battlefield with a death counter on it. If this creature would leave the battlefield, if it has a death counter on it, exile it instead.) 1/1
Dauntless Explorer:1mana::symg: Creature – Elf Druid Scout (Common) , Untap a tapped land an opponent controls: Add one mana of any type that land could produce to your mana pool.
Rebirth :1mana::symg: (You may cast this card from your graveyard for its rebirth cost. If you do, it enters the battlefield with a death counter on it. If this creature would leave the battlefield, if it has a death counter on it, exile it instead.) 1/1
Oh, OK. They can do that if they don't have instants to play on your turn. But there are cards in my set that get around that, such as the following cycle:
Tireless Explorer:1mana::symw: Creature – Human Soldier Scout (Common) , Untap a tapped land an opponent controls: Add one mana of any type that land could produce to your mana pool. Rebirth :1mana::symw: (You may cast this card from your graveyard for its rebirth cost. If you do, it enters the battlefield with a death counter on it. When this creature leaves the battlefield, if it had a death counter on it, exile it.) 1/1
Ceaseless Explorer:1mana::symu: Creature – Merfolk Scout (Common) , Untap a tapped land an opponent controls: Add one mana of any type that land could produce to your mana pool.
Rebirth :1mana::symu: (You may cast this card from your graveyard for its rebirth cost. If you do, it enters the battlefield with a death counter on it. When this creature leaves the battlefield, if it had a death counter on it, exile it.) 1/1
Restless Explorer:1mana::symb: Creature – Zombie Scout (Common) , Untap a tapped land an opponent controls: Add one mana of any type that land could produce to your mana pool.
Rebirth :1mana::symb: (You may cast this card from your graveyard for its rebirth cost. If you do, it enters the battlefield with a death counter on it. When this creature leaves the battlefield, if it had a death counter on it, exile it.) 1/1
Reckless Explorer:1mana::symr: Creature – Dwarf Scout (Common) , Untap a tapped land an opponent controls: Add one mana of any type that land could produce to your mana pool.
Rebirth :1mana::symr: (You may cast this card from your graveyard for its rebirth cost. If you do, it enters the battlefield with a death counter on it. When this creature leaves the battlefield, if it had a death counter on it, exile it.) 1/1
Dauntless Explorer:1mana::symg: Creature – Elf Druid Scout (Common) , Untap a tapped land an opponent controls: Add one mana of any type that land could produce to your mana pool.
Rebirth :1mana::symg: (You may cast this card from your graveyard for its rebirth cost. If you do, it enters the battlefield with a death counter on it. When this creature leaves the battlefield, if it had a death counter on it, exile it.)
1/1
Ah, so cards that untap their lands. Seems interesting for block, but not as good in other formats I think unless it's a very instant-heavy metagame.
Piracy for wording. And it wouldn't be an additional cost. It is just a modified way of paying existing costs.
Imo, it probably should not scale in multiplayer. Being able to tap two lands per opponent makes it incredibly strong. Limiting it to a set number, or maybe a variable number, would be much easier to balance. Also, I would rename it merely because there are several cards with syphon in their name that use the ability "Target player loses N life, and you gain N life." The card Piracy has this mechanic almost exactly, which makes it a good choice of a simple name. Although, I guess that is not entirely important.
Piracy 2 (You may tap up to two lands you don't control for mana to pay this spell's costs.)
Putting a variable number in it might be good, even if the number is always the same like "Scry 2" in Fifth Dawn.
Full rules text would be something like:
"As you are paying this spell's costs, you may tap up to N lands you don't control for mana. Spend this mana only to pay this spell's costs. You can't tap more lands this way than are necessary to pay this spell's costs."
The last sentence is probably not exactly right. My intent is if the cost is reduced or you are casting the spell without paying its mana cost, you can not tap more lands than you actually need. Although, abilities like Heartbeat of Spring complicate that a bit.
Thank you, silvercut! But I did use Piracy for wording, obviously?
I got the "additional cost" from the comprehensive rules for convoke. I figured syphon would work much the same way.
702.48a Convoke is a static ability that functions while the spell is on the stack. "Convoke" means "As an additional cost to cast this spell, you may tap any number of untapped creatures you control. Each creature tapped this way reduces the cost to cast this spell by {1} or by one mana of any of that creature’s colors." Using the convoke ability follows the rules for paying additional costs in rules 601.2b and 601.2e–g.
Example: You cast Guardian of Vitu-Ghazi, a spell with convoke that costs {6}{G}{W}. You announce that you’re going to tap a colorless creature, a red creature, and a green-and-white creature to help pay for it. The colorless creature and the red creature each reduce the spell’s cost by {1}. You choose whether the green-white creature reduces the spell’s cost by {1}, {G}, or {W}. Then the creatures become tapped as you pay Guardian of Vitu-Ghazi’s cost.
I like how syphon scales in multiplayer. (Who doesn't like free spells?) Actually, the fact that Syphon Soul "deals 2 damage to each other player" and "you gain life equal to the damage dealt this way" is what sold me on syphon as the keyword ability name and making it scale in multiplayer. But your concern is noted. I like "piracy" as a keyword ability name, but the flavor of a lot of the cards in my set with syphon would need to be reworked.
Also, as multiplayer is a casual format I'm less concerned about the power-level in multiplayer than I am with the power-level in 2 headed giant (even though I play the former but not the latter).
I considered limiting it to a set number or a variable number to open up the design space, but I'm not so sure it would be easier to balance.
Of course, your reminder text was just about word for word from Piracy. I meant that the actual rules for it would be much closer to the wording of Piracy also.
The scalability of this in multiplayer is completely different from cards like Breath of Malfegor. In a normal due it hinders control decks, but you still pay an appropriate amount of mana yourself for the effect. In multiplayer, it would often just be a free spell.
Mostly I fear that scaling for each opponent would greatly limit the potential design space. For example, X spells would be next to impossible without a set limit.
Encroaching FlameXR
Sorcery (U)
Piracy 2 (You may tap up to two lands you don't control for mana to pay this spell's costs.)
CARDNAME deals X damage to target creature or player and 2 damage to you.
Syphon is a static ability that lets you tap your opponents' lands to help pay for your spells. Only creature, enchantment, and sorcery cards have syphon.[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana]Pyroclastic Surge [/FONT][FONT=Verdana]2RR[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana]Sorcery[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana]Syphon (For each opponent, [/FONT][FONT=Verdana]you may tap up to two lands that player controls for mana. Spend this mana only to cast this spell.)[/FONT]
There is a reason why Piracy has not been re-printed in "real" Magic. There are complications involving effects like Wild Growth and others that make it undesirable to "tap objects" for mana, rather than playing mana abilities you control. You should base this on the Convoke avility, not Piracy:
Syphon is a static ability that functions while the spell is on the stack. "Syphon" means "As an additional cost to cast this spell, you may tap any number of untapped lands your opponents control. Each land tapped this way reduces the cost to cast this spell by {1} or by one mana of any type that land could produce." Using the syphon ability follows the rules for paying additional costs in rules 601.2b and 601.2e-g.
Thank you, Condor! My calls for a rules guru have been answered! No offence silvercut, but you don't have the credentials under your name. I was actually going to PM Condor to draw his attention to this thread.
I certainly looked at the comprehensive rules for convoke, but I too quickly dismissed the cost reduction vs. actually getting mana from your opponent's lands. It does seem like it would save a lot of rules headaches and undesirable interactions to base syphon more on convoke. Then I wouldn't have to answer questions like what happens if you tap your opponent's Fungal Reaches or Temple of the False God for mana?
I would appreciate if you could explain the difference between "Add to your mana pool one mana of any type that a land you control could produce" (as with Reflecting Pool) and "Add to your mana pool one mana of any color that a land you control could produce." (as with Harvester Druid).
I'm still thinking this through, but so far I've got:
Syphon 2 (You may tap up to two lands you don't control while casting this spell. Each land tapped this way reduces this spell's cost by 1 or by one mana of any type that land could produce.)
Or
Syphon 2 (You may tap up to two lands you don't control while casting this spell. Each land tapped this way reduces this spell's cost by 1.)
I prefer the first version. Reducing generic mana only feels like affinity (but then I could drop the "If you control a Mountain..."). Adding the 2 means I can have Syphon 1 or Syphon 4, etc. (not that I want to)
Edit: Condor, your wording for syphon implies that you could tap all of your opponents' untapped lands (or, for example, if the converted mana cost of the spell with syphon is six, six of your opponents' untapped lands). This was how my first version of syphon worked, but it was quickly pointed out that the number of your opponents' lands that you can tap should be limited, lest spells with syphon include a free Mana Short...
I would appreciate if you could explain the difference between "Add to your mana pool one mana of any type that a land you control could produce" (as with Reflecting Pool) and "Add to your mana pool one mana of any color that a land you control could produce." (as with Harvester Druid).
Type is just color except that it also includes colorless mana, meaning that if your only lands on the battlefield were Reliquary Tower and Reflecting Pool, your Pool could tap for 1 but your Harvester couldn't tap for anything.
The convoke wording would work, but it would potentially open a card up to something like Nix and it would stop abilities like Vigor Mortis or sunburst that care about the mana that was actually spent to cast a spell. There is nothing particularly wrong with that, and I guess it might occasionally even be desirable to use something like that in a design ("If you spent no mana to cast CARDNAME, <effect>"). I just thought I'd point out the difference, no matter how slight it is.
Type is just color except that it also includes colorless mana, meaning that if your only lands on the battlefield were Reliquary Tower and Reflecting Pool, your Pool could tap for 1 but your Harvester couldn't tap for anything.
Duh. That makes sense. Thank you!
Would it not make sense, then, to use:
You may tap up to two lands you don't control while casting this spell. Each land tapped this way reduces this spell's cost by one mana of any type that land could produce.
Instead of:
You may tap up to two lands you don't control while casting this spell. Each land tapped this way reduces this spell's cost by 1 or by one mana of any type that land could produce.
?
Thank you for your input, silvercut. With over 10,000 M:TG cards in existence it is impossible for me to anticipate the interactions with all of them. I like it when people point things out, that's why I started this thread.
I'm not concerned with Nix countering a spell with syphon if no mana was spent to cast it. There should be a foil to free spells. Maybe I should reprint Nix in my set? Although the syphon keyword ability hasn't been finalized yet, if I keep the number of opponents' lands that can be tapped to a set number and remove the scaling in multiplayer, it would be rare that a spell with syphon would ever be free. On the other hand, if you are tapping your opponents' lands, they may not even have mana available to cast Nix against your spell with syphon...
I'm not sure of your point with Vigor Mortis or sunburst, doesn't that only matter if syphon and the "enhanced" spell mechanic or sunburst appear on the same card...?
It normally wouldn't matter, but I was just thinking of the sometimes seemingly requisite ability granters like Mycosynth Golem or Djinn Illuminatus. A card that gives syphon would probably have to be limited to the first spell you cast during your turn, partly similar to Maelstrom Nexus, but it could be a really flavorful card.
EDIT: Limit to during your turn so you can't use cantrip instants during your opponent's upkeep to mana drain him easily turn after turn. Limited to one so that it can't degenerate with the creatures posted earlier in this thread that untap opponent's lands.
A card that gives syphon would probably have to be limited to the first spell you cast during your turn, partly similar to Maelstrom Nexus
I don't see the connection at all. If Nexus weren't limited that way, each cascaded spell would trigger it again until you hit your lowest converted mana cost in your deck at which point you would reshuffle your entire library. It becomes hugely more powerful. Syphon, on the other hand, becomes weaker with each successive spell, since your opponents only have so many lands for you to drain.
It normally wouldn't matter, but I was just thinking of the sometimes seemingly requisite ability granters like Mycosynth Golem or Djinn Illuminatus. A card that gives syphon...
I do have a creature in my set that taps to give rebirth to a creature card in your graveyard, but I hadn't even considered a card that gives syphon to spells without syphon.
Syphon (You may tap up to two lands you don't control while casting this spell. Each land tapped this way reduces this spell's cost by or by one mana of any type that land could produce.)
To
Syphon (You may tap up to two lands you don't control while casting this spell. Each land tapped this way reduces this spell's cost by one mana of any type that land could produce.)
Since (as stated earlier, possibly incorrectly) "type" implies "1 or one of any color", the shorter version should be okay.
Related question: "type" vs. "color" - color doesn't convey the snow-ness of the source, while type does, correct? (I doubt that is going to actually come up in Marco's set, but it's worth knowing.)
Thank you, MDenham. I can't think of any examples where there would be a functional difference between the two. I think all of my cards with syphon so far have at least 2 generic mana in their mana cost. And I would like to shorten the reminder text as much as possible. I don't have any snow permanents in my set, but it's a good question...
I've been thinking about it, and I'm pretty sure I need the "...reduces this spell's cost by ..."
If the mana cost of a spell is 4WW and you are tapping your opponent's Mountain, you can't reduce the mana cost of the spell by R because R is not in the mana cost. You have to reduce the mana cost of the spell by 1.
New rules question: Does the reminder text of syphon need to specify that you can only tap your opponent's untapped lands to reduce the cost of the spell with syphon?
For reference:
Current reminder text: Syphon (You may tap up to two lands you don't control while casting this spell. Each land tapped this way reduces this spell's cost by 1 or by one mana of any type that land could produce.)
Current official rules: 702.XXa Syphon is a static ability that functions while the spell is on the stack. "Syphon" means "As an additional cost to cast this spell, you may tap up to two untapped lands you don't control. Each land tapped this way reduces the cost to cast this spell by 1 or by one mana of any type that land could produce." Using the syphon ability follows the rules for paying additional costs in rules 601.2b and 601.2e-g.
Example: You cast Pyroclastic Surge, a spell with syphon that costs 2RR. You announce that you're going to tap opponent A's untapped Gargoyle Castle and opponent B's untapped Mountain to help pay for it. The Gargoyle Castle reduces the spell's cost by 1. You choose whether the Mountain reduces the spell's cost by 1 or R. Then the lands become tapped as you pay Pyroclastic Surge's cost.
Syphon is based on convoke, which does not specify that you can only tap untapped creatures to reduce the cost of the spell with convoke ("Each creature you tap while casting this spell reduces its cost by 1 or by one mana of that creature's color.") However, most Magic cards that tap a creature as part of a cost, including spells with conspire, do specify "untapped creature".
I would like to leave "untapped" off of the reminder text of syphon to save space. (The official rules for the syphon ability does specify "untapped lands").
The reason that I ask this rules question is because at least two people thought that you could tap your opponent's lands to reduce the cost of the spell with syphon, even if those lands were already tapped. (This would effectively equate to "this spell costs 2 less to cast if your opponent controls two lands", which is more like affinity for artifacts and not how I intended syphon to work.)
I don't think that the rules say that you can tap a tapped creature or land (to pay a cost and still get the effect)? I don't think it would be intuitive to someone new to the game that you can tap a land that is already tapped for mana...?
Thank you, Magnus Magicus. I appreciate it when people point out interesting and unique interactions. I don't think your example is a big deal. In fact, I think it's kind of neat. Also, I don't want to limit myself, but I don't think I'd ever create a card with syphon that costs WWW (or CCC for that matter)...
I didn't realize no one answered your last question. No, you don't have to specify "untapped" in your reminder text. You can't tap something that is already tapped, end of story. Seeking to avoid confusion is a good goal, but sometimes players just need to learn when they are doing something wrong. You could certainly specify it in the reminder text, but you might be doing those players a bigger favor by instead explaining their misconception to them, because it doesn't just matter for how they play your mechanic, it matters for how they play a lot of game actions.
I think the source of the confusion is that an effect that says "tap target land" can target a tapped land, it just won't do anything. You need to explain that any resolving effect will perform as much of its effect as it can and ignore anything it can't do, whereas in order to pay a cost you have to be able to do whatever the cost demands.
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Syphon is a static ability that lets you tap your opponents' lands to help pay for your spells. Only creature, enchantment, and sorcery cards have syphon.
Pyroclastic Surge 2RR
Sorcery (Uncommon)
Syphon (For each opponent, you may tap up to two lands that player controls for mana. Spend this mana only to cast this spell.)
If you control a Mountain, Pyroclastic Surge deals 2 damage to each creature and each player.
Update 1:
Pyroclastic Surge 2RR
Sorcery (Uncommon)
Syphon (You may tap up to two lands you don't control while casting this spell. Each land tapped this way reduces this spell's cost by 1 or by one mana of any type that land could produce.)
If you control a Mountain, Pyroclastic Surge deals 2 damage to each creature and each player.
Update 2:
Pyroclastic Surge 2RR
Sorcery (Uncommon)
Syphon 2 (As you cast this spell, tap up to two lands you don't control. Each land tapped this way reduces this spell's cost by 1 or by one mana of any color that land could produce.)
If you control a Mountain, Pyroclastic Surge deals 2 damage to each creature and each player.
Update 3:
Pyroclastic Surge 2RR
Sorcery (Uncommon)
Syphon 2 (As you cast this spell, tap up to two untapped lands you don't control. Each land tapped this way reduces this spell's cost by 1 or by one mana of any color that land could produce.)
If you control a Mountain, Pyroclastic Surge deals 2 damage to each creature and each player.
The official rules for the syphon ability are as follows:
702.XX. Syphon
702.XXa Syphon is a static ability that functions while the spell is on the stack. "Syphon" means "As an additional cost to cast this spell, you may tap up to two untapped lands each of your opponents control. Each land tapped this way adds to your mana pool one mana of any color that land could produce. This mana can only be used to cast this spell." Using the syphon ability follows the rules for paying additional costs in rules 601.2b and 601.2e-g.
702.XXa Syphon is a static ability that functions while the spell is on the stack. "Syphon" means "As an additional cost to cast this spell, you may tap up to two untapped lands you don't control. Each land tapped this way reduces the cost to cast this spell by 1 or by one mana of any type that land could produce." Using the syphon ability follows the rules for paying additional costs in rules 601.2b and 601.2e-g.
702.XXa Syphon is a static ability that functions while the spell is on the stack. "Syphon N" means "As an additional cost to cast this spell, you may tap up to N untapped lands you don't control. Each land tapped this way reduces the cost to cast this spell by 1 or by one mana of any color that land could produce." Using the syphon ability follows the rules for paying additional costs in rules 601.2b and 601.2e-g.
Example: You cast Pyroclastic Surge, a spell with syphon that costs 2RR. You announce that you're going to tap opponent A's untapped Halimar Depths and opponent B's untapped Mountain to help pay for it. The Halimar Depths reduces the spell's cost by 1. You choose whether the Mountain reduces the spell's cost by 1 or R. Then the lands become tapped as you pay Pyroclastic Surge's cost.
It's a neat ability and all, but IDK if it would be competitive since it's so easy to stop. Although, it does prevent the opponent's from bluffing with instants.
Na, I mean they can tap all their lands at the end of their turn so you cant syphon their lands.
Tireless Explorer :1mana::symw:
Creature – Human Soldier Scout (Common)
, Untap a tapped land an opponent controls: Add one mana of any type that land could produce to your mana pool.
Rebirth :1mana::symw: (You may cast this card from your graveyard for its rebirth cost. If you do, it enters the battlefield with a death counter on it. If this creature would leave the battlefield, if it has a death counter on it, exile it instead.)
1/1
Ceaseless Explorer :1mana::symu:
Creature – Merfolk Scout (Common)
, Untap a tapped land an opponent controls: Add one mana of any type that land could produce to your mana pool.
Rebirth :1mana::symu: (You may cast this card from your graveyard for its rebirth cost. If you do, it enters the battlefield with a death counter on it. If this creature would leave the battlefield, if it has a death counter on it, exile it instead.)
1/1
Restless Explorer :1mana::symb:
Creature – Zombie Scout (Common)
, Untap a tapped land an opponent controls: Add one mana of any type that land could produce to your mana pool.
Rebirth :1mana::symb: (You may cast this card from your graveyard for its rebirth cost. If you do, it enters the battlefield with a death counter on it. If this creature would leave the battlefield, if it has a death counter on it, exile it instead.)
1/1
Reckless Explorer :1mana::symr:
Creature – Dwarf Scout (Common)
, Untap a tapped land an opponent controls: Add one mana of any type that land could produce to your mana pool.
Rebirth :1mana::symr: (You may cast this card from your graveyard for its rebirth cost. If you do, it enters the battlefield with a death counter on it. If this creature would leave the battlefield, if it has a death counter on it, exile it instead.)
1/1
Dauntless Explorer :1mana::symg:
Creature – Elf Druid Scout (Common)
, Untap a tapped land an opponent controls: Add one mana of any type that land could produce to your mana pool.
Rebirth :1mana::symg: (You may cast this card from your graveyard for its rebirth cost. If you do, it enters the battlefield with a death counter on it. If this creature would leave the battlefield, if it has a death counter on it, exile it instead.)
1/1
Ah, so cards that untap their lands. Seems interesting for block, but not as good in other formats I think unless it's a very instant-heavy metagame.
Imo, it probably should not scale in multiplayer. Being able to tap two lands per opponent makes it incredibly strong. Limiting it to a set number, or maybe a variable number, would be much easier to balance. Also, I would rename it merely because there are several cards with syphon in their name that use the ability "Target player loses N life, and you gain N life." The card Piracy has this mechanic almost exactly, which makes it a good choice of a simple name. Although, I guess that is not entirely important.
Piracy 2 (You may tap up to two lands you don't control for mana to pay this spell's costs.)
Putting a variable number in it might be good, even if the number is always the same like "Scry 2" in Fifth Dawn.
Full rules text would be something like:
"As you are paying this spell's costs, you may tap up to N lands you don't control for mana. Spend this mana only to pay this spell's costs. You can't tap more lands this way than are necessary to pay this spell's costs."
The last sentence is probably not exactly right. My intent is if the cost is reduced or you are casting the spell without paying its mana cost, you can not tap more lands than you actually need. Although, abilities like Heartbeat of Spring complicate that a bit.
I got the "additional cost" from the comprehensive rules for convoke. I figured syphon would work much the same way.
702.48a Convoke is a static ability that functions while the spell is on the stack. "Convoke" means "As an additional cost to cast this spell, you may tap any number of untapped creatures you control. Each creature tapped this way reduces the cost to cast this spell by {1} or by one mana of any of that creature’s colors." Using the convoke ability follows the rules for paying additional costs in rules 601.2b and 601.2e–g.
Example: You cast Guardian of Vitu-Ghazi, a spell with convoke that costs {6}{G}{W}. You announce that you’re going to tap a colorless creature, a red creature, and a green-and-white creature to help pay for it. The colorless creature and the red creature each reduce the spell’s cost by {1}. You choose whether the green-white creature reduces the spell’s cost by {1}, {G}, or {W}. Then the creatures become tapped as you pay Guardian of Vitu-Ghazi’s cost.
Also, as multiplayer is a casual format I'm less concerned about the power-level in multiplayer than I am with the power-level in 2 headed giant (even though I play the former but not the latter).
I considered limiting it to a set number or a variable number to open up the design space, but I'm not so sure it would be easier to balance.
I would love to read some more opinions...
The scalability of this in multiplayer is completely different from cards like Breath of Malfegor. In a normal due it hinders control decks, but you still pay an appropriate amount of mana yourself for the effect. In multiplayer, it would often just be a free spell.
Mostly I fear that scaling for each opponent would greatly limit the potential design space. For example, X spells would be next to impossible without a set limit.
Encroaching Flame XR
Sorcery (U)
Piracy 2 (You may tap up to two lands you don't control for mana to pay this spell's costs.)
CARDNAME deals X damage to target creature or player and 2 damage to you.
There is a reason why Piracy has not been re-printed in "real" Magic. There are complications involving effects like Wild Growth and others that make it undesirable to "tap objects" for mana, rather than playing mana abilities you control. You should base this on the Convoke avility, not Piracy:
I certainly looked at the comprehensive rules for convoke, but I too quickly dismissed the cost reduction vs. actually getting mana from your opponent's lands. It does seem like it would save a lot of rules headaches and undesirable interactions to base syphon more on convoke. Then I wouldn't have to answer questions like what happens if you tap your opponent's Fungal Reaches or Temple of the False God for mana?
I would appreciate if you could explain the difference between "Add to your mana pool one mana of any type that a land you control could produce" (as with Reflecting Pool) and "Add to your mana pool one mana of any color that a land you control could produce." (as with Harvester Druid).
I'm still thinking this through, but so far I've got:
Syphon 2 (You may tap up to two lands you don't control while casting this spell. Each land tapped this way reduces this spell's cost by 1 or by one mana of any type that land could produce.)
Or
Syphon 2 (You may tap up to two lands you don't control while casting this spell. Each land tapped this way reduces this spell's cost by 1.)
I prefer the first version. Reducing generic mana only feels like affinity (but then I could drop the "If you control a Mountain..."). Adding the 2 means I can have Syphon 1 or Syphon 4, etc. (not that I want to)
Edit: Condor, your wording for syphon implies that you could tap all of your opponents' untapped lands (or, for example, if the converted mana cost of the spell with syphon is six, six of your opponents' untapped lands). This was how my first version of syphon worked, but it was quickly pointed out that the number of your opponents' lands that you can tap should be limited, lest spells with syphon include a free Mana Short...
Type is just color except that it also includes colorless mana, meaning that if your only lands on the battlefield were Reliquary Tower and Reflecting Pool, your Pool could tap for 1 but your Harvester couldn't tap for anything.
Duh. That makes sense. Thank you!
Would it not make sense, then, to use:
You may tap up to two lands you don't control while casting this spell. Each land tapped this way reduces this spell's cost by one mana of any type that land could produce.
Instead of:
You may tap up to two lands you don't control while casting this spell. Each land tapped this way reduces this spell's cost by 1 or by one mana of any type that land could produce.
?
Thank you for your input, silvercut. With over 10,000 M:TG cards in existence it is impossible for me to anticipate the interactions with all of them. I like it when people point things out, that's why I started this thread.
I'm not concerned with Nix countering a spell with syphon if no mana was spent to cast it. There should be a foil to free spells. Maybe I should reprint Nix in my set? Although the syphon keyword ability hasn't been finalized yet, if I keep the number of opponents' lands that can be tapped to a set number and remove the scaling in multiplayer, it would be rare that a spell with syphon would ever be free. On the other hand, if you are tapping your opponents' lands, they may not even have mana available to cast Nix against your spell with syphon...
I'm not sure of your point with Vigor Mortis or sunburst, doesn't that only matter if syphon and the "enhanced" spell mechanic or sunburst appear on the same card...?
EDIT: Limit to during your turn so you can't use cantrip instants during your opponent's upkeep to mana drain him easily turn after turn. Limited to one so that it can't degenerate with the creatures posted earlier in this thread that untap opponent's lands.
I don't see the connection at all. If Nexus weren't limited that way, each cascaded spell would trigger it again until you hit your lowest converted mana cost in your deck at which point you would reshuffle your entire library. It becomes hugely more powerful. Syphon, on the other hand, becomes weaker with each successive spell, since your opponents only have so many lands for you to drain.
I do have a creature in my set that taps to give rebirth to a creature card in your graveyard, but I hadn't even considered a card that gives syphon to spells without syphon.
Pros and cons of shortening
Syphon (You may tap up to two lands you don't control while casting this spell. Each land tapped this way reduces this spell's cost by or by one mana of any type that land could produce.)
To
Syphon (You may tap up to two lands you don't control while casting this spell. Each land tapped this way reduces this spell's cost by one mana of any type that land could produce.)
?
Related question: "type" vs. "color" - color doesn't convey the snow-ness of the source, while type does, correct? (I doubt that is going to actually come up in Marco's set, but it's worth knowing.)
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If the mana cost of a spell is 4WW and you are tapping your opponent's Mountain, you can't reduce the mana cost of the spell by R because R is not in the mana cost. You have to reduce the mana cost of the spell by 1.
For reference:
Current reminder text:
Syphon (You may tap up to two lands you don't control while casting this spell. Each land tapped this way reduces this spell's cost by 1 or by one mana of any type that land could produce.)
Current official rules:
702.XXa Syphon is a static ability that functions while the spell is on the stack. "Syphon" means "As an additional cost to cast this spell, you may tap up to two untapped lands you don't control. Each land tapped this way reduces the cost to cast this spell by 1 or by one mana of any type that land could produce." Using the syphon ability follows the rules for paying additional costs in rules 601.2b and 601.2e-g.
Example: You cast Pyroclastic Surge, a spell with syphon that costs 2RR. You announce that you're going to tap opponent A's untapped Gargoyle Castle and opponent B's untapped Mountain to help pay for it. The Gargoyle Castle reduces the spell's cost by 1. You choose whether the Mountain reduces the spell's cost by 1 or R. Then the lands become tapped as you pay Pyroclastic Surge's cost.
I would like to leave "untapped" off of the reminder text of syphon to save space. (The official rules for the syphon ability does specify "untapped lands").
The reason that I ask this rules question is because at least two people thought that you could tap your opponent's lands to reduce the cost of the spell with syphon, even if those lands were already tapped. (This would effectively equate to "this spell costs 2 less to cast if your opponent controls two lands", which is more like affinity for artifacts and not how I intended syphon to work.)
I don't think that the rules say that you can tap a tapped creature or land (to pay a cost and still get the effect)? I don't think it would be intuitive to someone new to the game that you can tap a land that is already tapped for mana...?
White Sorcery WWW
Sorcery
Syphon 2
Do white stuff
And your opponent only controls 2 Vivid Groves with NO charge counters on them. So HE can't use them to produce W. But you can...
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I think the source of the confusion is that an effect that says "tap target land" can target a tapped land, it just won't do anything. You need to explain that any resolving effect will perform as much of its effect as it can and ignore anything it can't do, whereas in order to pay a cost you have to be able to do whatever the cost demands.
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