To all rules gurus and high-level judges, please confirm that my rebirth ability works as intended.
Rebirth is an ability that enables you to cast certain creature cards from your graveyard.
Anointed KnightWW Creature - Human Knight (Common) First strike Rebirth 2W(You may cast this card from your graveyard for its rebirth cost. If you do, it enters the battlefield with a death counter on it. When this creature leaves the battlefield, if it had a death counter on it, exile it.) 2/2
Update 1:
Anointed KnightWW Creature - Human Knight (Common) First strike Rebirth 2W(You may cast this card from your graveyard for its rebirth cost. If you do, it enters the battlefield with a death counter on it. If this creature would leave the battlefield, if it has a death counter on it, exile it instead.) 2/2
Update 2:
Anointed Knight WW Creature - Human Knight (Common) First strike Rebirth 2W(You may cast this card from your graveyard for its rebirth cost. If you do, it enters the battlefield with a death counter on it and gains "If this creature would leave the battlefield, exile it instead.") 2/2
Update 3:
Anointed Knight WW Creature - Human Knight (Common) First strike Rebirth 2W(You may cast this card from your graveyard for its rebirth cost. If you do, it enters the battlefield with a death counter on it. If this creature would leave the battlefield, exile it instead.)
2/2
Update 4:
Anointed Knight WW
Creature – Human Knight (Uncommon)
First strike
Rebirth 3W(You may cast this card from your graveyard for its rebirth cost. If you do, it enters the battlefield with a death counter on it. If this creature would leave the battlefield, if it has a death counter on it, exile it instead.)
2/2
The official rules for rebirth are as follows:
702.XX. Rebirth 702.XXa Rebirth is a keyword that represents three abilities: a static ability that functions while the card is in a player's graveyard, a static ability that functions on the battlefield, and a triggered ability that functions on the battlefield. "Rebirth [cost]" means "You may cast this card from your graveyard by paying [cost] rather than paying its mana cost," and "If the rebirth cost was paid, this permanent enters the battlefield with a death counter on it," and "If this permanent would leave the battlefield, if it has a death counter on it, exile it instead of putting it anywhere else." Casting a spell using its rebirth ability follows the rules for paying additional costs in rules 601.2b and 601.2e–g.
702.XXa Rebirth represents a static ability that functions while the card is in a player's graveyard. "Rebirth [cost]" means "You may cast this card from your graveyard by paying [cost] rather than paying its mana cost. If you do, this permanent enters the battlefield with a death counter on it. If this permanent would leave the battlefield, if it has a death counter on it, exile it instead of putting it anywhere else." Casting a spell using its rebirth ability follows the rules for paying alternative costs in rules 601.2b and 601.2e–g.
702.XXa Rebirth represents a static ability that functions while the card is in a player's graveyard. "Rebirth [cost]" means "You may cast this card from your graveyard by paying [cost] rather than paying its mana cost. If you do, this permanent enters the battlefield with a death counter on it and gains 'If this permanent would leave the battlefield, exile it instead.'" Casting a spell using its rebirth ability follows the rules for paying alternative costs in rules 601.2b and 601.2e–g. The permanent the spell becomes will also have that ability (see rule 400.7a).
702.XXa Rebirth represents a static ability that functions while the card is in a player's graveyard. "Rebirth [cost]" means "You may cast this card from your graveyard by paying [cost] rather than paying its mana cost. If you do, this permanent enters the battlefield with a death counter on it. If this permanent would leave the battlefield, exile it instead of putting it anywhere else." Casting a spell using its rebirth ability follows the rules for paying alternative costs in rules 601.2b and 601.2e–g.
702.XXa Rebirth represents two static abilities: one that functions while the card is in a player's graveyard and the other that functions while the card is on the battlefield. "Rebirth [cost]" means "You may cast this card from your graveyard by paying [cost] rather than paying its mana cost. If you do, this permanent enters the battlefield with a death counter on it" and "If the rebirth cost was paid, exile this card instead of putting it anywhere else if it would leave the battlefield." Casting a spell using its rebirth ability follows the rules for paying alternative costs in rules 601.2b and 601.2e–g.
702.XXa Rebirth represents two static abilities: one that functions while the card is in a player's graveyard and the other that functions while the card is on the battlefield. "Rebirth [cost]" means "You may cast this card from your graveyard by paying [cost] rather than paying its mana cost. If you do, this permanent enters the battlefield with a death counter on it" and "If this permanent would leave the battlefield, if it has a death counter on it, exile it instead of putting it anywhere else." Casting a spell using its rebirth ability follows the rules for paying alternative costs in rules 601.2b and 601.2e–g.
Other details:
* Casting a card by using its rebirth ability works just like casting any other card except you're casting the card from your graveyard rather than your hand.
* A rebirth card cast from your graveyard follows the normal timing rules for creature cards.
* To cast a rebirth card from your graveyard, you must pay its rebirth cost.
* When a rebirth card you cast from your graveyard is countered, it's put back into your graveyard.
It all looks good except the last sentence of the reminder text, which should be a replacement effect like you made it in the official ruling. Probably something like: "As long as this creature has a death counter on it, if it would leave the battlefield, exile it instead."
Good point. This keyword ability has evolved from being like persist to being more like unearth. The reminder text should probably look something like this if I want to keep the unearth ruling:
(You may cast this card from your graveyard for its rebirth cost. If you do, it enters the battlefield with a death counter on it. If this creature would leave the battlefield, if it has a death counter on it, exile it instead.)
The counter could be used simply as a reminder, like on Sensei Golden-Tail, and actually serve no mechanical purpose. This would prevent Power Conduit shenanigans.
Rebirth {cost} (You may cast this card from your graveyard for its rebirth cost and put a death counter on it. If it would be put anywhere other than the stack or the battlefield, exile it instead.)
Rebirth is an ability that enables you to cast certain creature cards from your graveyard.
Anointed KnightWW
Rebirth 2W(You may cast this card from your graveyard for its rebirth cost. If you do, it enters the battlefield with a death counter on it. When this creature leaves the battlefield, if it had a death counter on it, exile it.)
The counter is completely unnecessary, unless you want shenanigans that add and/or remove counters to do something:
[indent Rebirth 2W(You may cast this card from your graveyard for its rebirth cost. If you do, it gains “If this object would leave the battlefield, if exile it instead.”)
The official rules for rebirth are as follows:
702.XX. Rebirth
702.XXa Rebirth is a keyword that represents a static ability that functions while the card is in a player’s graveyard. "Rebirth [cost]" means "You may cast this card from your graveyard by paying [cost] rather than paying its mana cost. If you do, it gains ‘If this object would leave the battlefield, if exile it instead.’” Casting a spell using its rebirth ability follows the rules for paying additional costs in rules 601.2b and 601.2e–g. The permanent the spell becomes will also have that ability (see rule 400.7a).
Thank you, Condor! My calls for a rules guru have been answered!
Rebirth (originally named reanimate) was conceived as flashback on creatures and I also drew inspiration from Bogardan Phoenix.
I figured the counter (originally a fate counter) was necessary because late in the game with multiple Anointed Knights or other creatures with rebirth in play, there was potential for memory issues and the possibility of cheating. Which Anointed Knights were played from your graveyard (if any) and would be exiled if they left the battlefield, and which were played from your hand and could be raised from the dead?
The intent was for the creature to be (successfully) cast from the graveyard only once (if it was countered, it would go back to the graveyard).
Originally, the creature with rebirth was exiled when it was put into a graveyard from play if it had a death counter on it, but I changed it to be exiled when it leaves play/would leave play so that it couldn't be Unsummoned or Excommunicated to get around being exiled (reset). I think I would like it if the trick with blinking it, as with unearth, works with rebirth...
I don't necessarily want shenanigans with adding and/or removing counters (Clockspinning, Power Conduit), but I don't see this as being a problem or over-powered, especially since the same can be done with persist and it is even easier to remove -1/-1 counters (with +1/+1 counters and other effects). Removing counters proved to be powerful with persist but not game breaking.
Assuming I really don't need a counter, and I'm not convinced, here's what I've got so far... (flashback works differently as the instant/sorcery spells with flashback are exiled on resolution. Creature spells with rebirth stick around, so you have to remember to exile them many turns later...)
Anointed Knight :symw::symw: Creature - Human Knight (Common) First strike Rebirth :2mana::symw: (You may cast this card from your graveyard for its rebirth cost. If you do, it gains "If this creature would leave the battlefield, exile it instead.")
2/2
Edit: Another general question. Is it okay for creatures to have the same rebirth cost as mana cost? For example, if Anointed Knight had a mana cost of WW and a rebirth cost of WW. Does that confuse things when the game checks whether the rebirth cost was paid? Flashback costs were (mostly) much higher than mana costs, but I assume WotC was just being cautious... and instant/sorceries are harder to deal with/potentially more abusive than creatures...
I would just like to point out that obviously Condor is right that a counter is unnecessary to make this work from a rules standpoint, but I think your first instinct to use one to avoid memory issues is correct. Shadowmoor may have had a -1/-1 counter theme, but it's no coincidence Persist looks for a counter.
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Thank you, intreped. I thought so, but I've been burying myself so deeply in the rules that I psyched myself out.
I am shooting for different rebirth costs than mana costs, but there are cases where I feel it would be more symmetrical and/or aesthetically pleasing for both costs to be the same.
Do you think this card is costed appropriately for a common?
Vengeful Aven2W Creature – Bird Soldier (Common) Flying Vengeful Aven has first strike as long as it has a death counter on it. Rebirth 3W(You may cast this card from your graveyard for its rebirth cost. If you do, it enters the battlefield with a death counter on it. If this creature would leave the battlefield, exile it instead.) 2/2
OK, so I am satisfied that the updated reminder text and official ruling for rebirth in post # 1 work as intended and that the use of a counter to avoid memory issues is acceptable.
My next question is whether or not this card works as intended:
Dead Rouser2B Creature – Human Wizard (Rare) B,T: Target creature card in your graveyard gains rebirth until end of turn. The rebirth cost is equal to its mana cost. (You may cast that card from your graveyard for its rebirth cost. If you do, it enters the battlefield with a death counter on it. If that creature would leave play, if it has a death counter on it, exile it instead.)
1/1
This is obviously meant to work like Dralnu, Lich Lord; however, instants and sorceries behave differently than permanents. Namely, they are put into the graveyard upon resolution instead of being put onto the battlefield.
My concern is: What would happen if a creature is put onto the battlefield using Dead Rouser's ability, and then Dead Rouser is destroyed/exiled/leaves the battlefield?
(I was thinking about how Goblin Pyromancer can give all Goblin creatures +3/+0 until end of turn, then if it is destroyed/exiled/leaves the battlefield before the beginning of the end step, the destroy all Goblins ability never happens...)
If Dead Rouser leaves the battlefield, does the card put onto the battlefield with Dead Rouser's ability forget that it is to be exiled if it would leave the battlefield? Or does it remember because the rebirth keyword ability has game rules associated with it that have to be followed? And is this not another reason for identifying which creatures were put onto the battlefield via rebirth with a counter?
Also, based on the updated reminder text and official ruling for rebirth in post # 1, what part(s) of the rebirth ability, if any, can be countered by Stifle?
I initially assumed that you could Stifle "this permanent enters the battlefield with a death counter on it", as with other "When ~this~ enters the battlefield..." triggers, but now I'm not so sure... I believe this may be a static ability rather than a triggered ability... I'm OK with not being able to "cheat" death (counters) with Stifle...
Also, can you Stifle "If this permanent would leave the battlefield, if it has a death counter on it, exile it instead of putting it anywhere else"? Is it a triggered ability, or is it a replacement effect? Can you Stifle the "if it would leave the battlefield..." unearth ability, which this part of the rebirth ability is based on?
If Dead Rouser leaves the battlefield, does the card put onto the battlefield with Dead Rouser's ability forget that it is to be exiled if it would leave the battlefield? Or does it remember because the rebirth keyword ability has game rules associated with it that have to be followed?
It "remembers" and will be exiled rather than put into any other zone.
Also, based on the updated reminder text and official ruling for rebirth in post # 1, what part(s) of the rebirth ability, if any, can be countered by Stifle?
None of it whatsoever. None of the abilities described are either activated or triggered.
I haven't decided against Condor's version. It would certainly make the reminder text shorter and free up some space on the card for flavor text...
Rebirth [cost] (You may cast this card from your graveyard for its rebirth cost. If you do, it gains "If this creature would leave the battlefield, exile it instead.")
Surely, the reminder text on a Magic card wouldn't say "object" as in Condor's version? If not "creature", then "card" or "permanent"?
The official rules/comprehensive rules could use "permanent" or "object" (should it be "object" because it gains the ability while the card is on the stack, before it has entered the battlefield?)
If I go with the death counter version, can anyone give the following the thumbs up?
702.XXa Rebirth represents a static ability that functions while the card is in a player’s graveyard. "Rebirth [cost]" means "You may cast this card from your graveyard by paying [cost] rather than paying its mana cost. If you do, this permanent enters the battlefield with a death counter on it. If this permanent would leave the battlefield, if it has a death counter on it, exile it instead of putting it anywhere else." Casting a spell using its rebirth ability follows the rules for paying alternative costs in rules 601.2b and 601.2e–g.
Does all of the above function while the card is in a player's graveyard or only the first part ("You may cast this card from your graveyard by paying [cost] rather than paying its mana cost.")? Is the rest a static ability that functions while the card is on the battlefield?
OK, here is the updated official wording for rebirth:
702.XXa Rebirth represents a static ability that functions while the card is in a player’s graveyard. "Rebirth [cost]" means "You may cast this card from your graveyard by paying [cost] rather than paying its mana cost. If you do, this permanent enters the battlefield with a death counter on it. If this permanent would leave the battlefield, if it has a death counter on it, exile it instead of putting it anywhere else." Casting a spell using its rebirth ability follows the rules for paying alternative costs in rules 601.2b and 601.2e–g.
Not wanting to give up on the counter due to memory issues, someone suggested:
Rebirth [cost] (You may cast this card from your graveyard for its rebirth cost. If you do, it gains a death counter and "If this creature would leave the battlefield, exile it instead.")
Or
Rebirth [cost] (You may cast this card from your graveyard for its rebirth cost. If you do, put a death counter on it and it gains "If this creature would leave the battlefield, exile it instead.")
Trusted ScholarU Creature – Human Wizard (Common) When Trusted Scholar enters the battlefield, if its rebirth cost was paid, draw a card. Rebirth 2U(You may cast this card from your graveyard for its rebirth cost. If you do, it enters the battlefield with a death counter on it. If this creature would leave the battlefield, if it has a death counter on it, exile it instead.) 1/1
It seems like a combination of Persist and Unearth. My suggestion would be not using "death counters", considering that we really don't need yet another kind of counter to keep track of. Perhaps something like:
Rebirth X (X: Return this card from the graveyard to the battlefield with a +1/+1 counter on it [or a -1/-1 counter, your preference]. Exile it if it would leave the battlefield. Rebirth only as a sorcery)
Anointed Knight WW
Creature - Human Knight (Common)
First strike
Rebirth 2W(You may cast this card from your graveyard for its rebirth cost. If you do, it enters the battlefield with a death counter on it and gains "If this creature would leave the battlefield, exile it instead.")
2/2
702.XXa Rebirth represents a static ability that functions while the card is in a player's graveyard. "Rebirth [cost]" means "You may cast this card from your graveyard by paying [cost] rather than paying its mana cost. If you do, this permanent enters the battlefield with a death counter on it and gains 'If this permanent would leave the battlefield, exile it instead.'" Casting a spell using its rebirth ability follows the rules for paying alternative costs in rules 601.2b and 601.2e–g. The permanent the spell becomes will also have that ability (see rule 400.7a).
Is it intentional for Humble effects to allow it to go back to the graveyard? Because it doesn't really need to "gain" an ability. Like with flashback, it is possible for the rules to keep track of how it was cast.
702.XXa Rebirth represents a static abilities that functions while the card is in a player's graveyard. "Rebirth [cost]" means "You may cast this card from your graveyard by paying [cost] rather than paying its mana cost. If you do, it enters the field with a death counter on it and if it would leave the field, exile it instead of putting it anywhere else." Casting a spell using its rebirth ability follows the rules for paying alternative costs in rules 601.2b and 601.2e–g.
Rebirth [cost] (You may cast this card from your graveyard for its rebirth cost. If you do, put a death counter on it and exile it if it would leave the field.)
Because Humble is/was played in all formats, and it would be broken to allow a card with rebirth to be put into the graveyard instead be exiled (until end of turn only)...
It was not intentional, but to be honest I didn't think about that interaction. Good catch. But I don't think it's an issue. Rebirth already allows you to "blink" a creature played from the graveyard out of/in to play with a spell like Momentary Blink...
~groan~ I was happy with my updated wording. I thought I had consensus. Anyone else want to chime in?
~groan~ I was happy with my updated wording. I thought I had consensus. Anyone else want to chime in?
... well I only removed idiosyncratic corner case of losing abilities while also shortening the reminder text. It doesn't need to "gain" an additional ability to exile it since it could just be part of the existing ability to cast it from the graveyard. Other than that, what I posted should play pretty much exactly the same.
True, it doesn't need to gain the ability. Taken from the Unearth ability:
Rebirth [cost] ([cost: return this card from the graveyard to the battlefield with a death counter on it. Exile it if it would leave the battlefield.)
I would also suggest adding that it can only be Rebirthed as a sorcery.
The idea is to cast the card for an alternate cost, so it would have all the normal timing restrictions (including normal sorcery speed or flash-y speed) and any additional costs like kicker (but not for other alternate costs like evoke). Unearth is a half-way attempt at flashback for permanents, but it fails at not being able to use additional costs like kicker. While admittedly no cards with unearth have kicker, it is still something that can't be done on future cards.
... well I only removed idiosyncratic corner case of losing abilities while also shortening the reminder text. It doesn't need to "gain" an additional ability to exile it since it could just be part of the existing ability to cast it from the graveyard. Other than that, what I posted should play pretty much exactly the same.
The idea is to cast the card for an alternate cost, so it would have all the normal timing restrictions (including normal sorcery speed or flash-y speed) and any additional costs like kicker (but not for other alternate costs like evoke). Unearth is a half-way attempt at flashback for permanents, but it fails at not being able to use additional costs like kicker. While admittedly no cards with unearth have kicker, it is still something that can't be done on future cards.
Point taken. So:
Rebirth X (you may cast this card from your graveyard for it's rebirth cost. It enters the battlefield with a death counter. If it would leave the battlefield, exile it.)
The death counter is technically unnecessary, but a good way to remember which creatures have been Rebirthed. It also opens the opportunity for "if ~ has a death counter on it" abilities. I'd still change it to a -1/-1 counter, considering it allows you to make the rebirth costs smaller and give the creatures bigger effects when they have -1/-1 counters on them.
(You may cast this card from your graveyard for its rebirth cost. If you do, it enters the battlefield with a death counter on it. If this creature would leave the battlefield, exile it instead.)
It has been recently suggested that "I think rebirth needs to be reworded. The way you have it now, the creature will be exiled the first time it dies and you will only ever be able to use the recursion if the card gets discarded or milled" and "Rebirth, as you currently have it worded, is a static ability which means that all of its parts always exist and are independent of each other".
I disgree and think that the "If this creature would leave the battlefield, exile it instead" effect would only occur if the event that put the permanent onto the battlefield was that the rebirth cost was paid.
Can someone please confirm? The intent, obviously, is that creatures with rebirth can be cast from the graveyard even if they have been put there from play...
For reference:
Anointed KnightWW Creature – Human Knight (Common) First strike
Rebirth 2W(You may cast this card from your graveyard for its rebirth cost. If you do, it enters the battlefield with a death counter on it. If this creature would leave the battlefield, exile it instead.)
2/2
The official rules for rebirth are as follows:
702.XXa Rebirth represents a static ability that functions while the card is in a player's graveyard. "Rebirth [cost]" means "You may cast this card from your graveyard by paying [cost] rather than paying its mana cost. If you do, this permanent enters the battlefield with a death counter on it. If this permanent would leave the battlefield, exile it instead of putting it anywhere else." Casting a spell using its rebirth ability follows the rules for paying alternative costs in rules 601.2b and 601.2e–g.
* Casting a card by using its rebirth ability works just like casting any other card except you're casting the card from your graveyard rather than your hand.
* A rebirth card cast from your graveyard follows the normal timing rules for creature cards.
* To cast a rebirth card from your graveyard, you must pay its rebirth cost.
* When a rebirth card you cast from your graveyard is countered, it's put back into your graveyard.
Rebirth is an ability that enables you to cast certain creature cards from your graveyard.
Anointed Knight WW
Creature - Human Knight (Common)
First strike
Rebirth 2W (You may cast this card from your graveyard for its rebirth cost. If you do, it enters the battlefield with a death counter on it. When this creature leaves the battlefield, if it had a death counter on it, exile it.)
2/2
Update 1:
Anointed Knight WW
Creature - Human Knight (Common)
First strike
Rebirth 2W (You may cast this card from your graveyard for its rebirth cost. If you do, it enters the battlefield with a death counter on it. If this creature would leave the battlefield, if it has a death counter on it, exile it instead.)
2/2
Update 2:
Anointed Knight WW
Creature - Human Knight (Common)
First strike
Rebirth 2W (You may cast this card from your graveyard for its rebirth cost. If you do, it enters the battlefield with a death counter on it and gains "If this creature would leave the battlefield, exile it instead.")
2/2
Update 3:
Anointed Knight WW
Creature - Human Knight (Common)
First strike
Rebirth 2W (You may cast this card from your graveyard for its rebirth cost. If you do, it enters the battlefield with a death counter on it. If this creature would leave the battlefield, exile it instead.)
2/2
Update 4:
Anointed Knight WW
Creature – Human Knight (Uncommon)
First strike
Rebirth 3W (You may cast this card from your graveyard for its rebirth cost. If you do, it enters the battlefield with a death counter on it. If this creature would leave the battlefield, if it has a death counter on it, exile it instead.)
2/2
The official rules for rebirth are as follows:
702.XX. Rebirth
702.XXa Rebirth is a keyword that represents three abilities: a static ability that functions while the card is in a player's graveyard, a static ability that functions on the battlefield, and a triggered ability that functions on the battlefield. "Rebirth [cost]" means "You may cast this card from your graveyard by paying [cost] rather than paying its mana cost," and "If the rebirth cost was paid, this permanent enters the battlefield with a death counter on it," and "If this permanent would leave the battlefield, if it has a death counter on it, exile it instead of putting it anywhere else." Casting a spell using its rebirth ability follows the rules for paying additional costs in rules 601.2b and 601.2e–g.
702.XXa Rebirth represents a static ability that functions while the card is in a player's graveyard. "Rebirth [cost]" means "You may cast this card from your graveyard by paying [cost] rather than paying its mana cost. If you do, this permanent enters the battlefield with a death counter on it. If this permanent would leave the battlefield, if it has a death counter on it, exile it instead of putting it anywhere else." Casting a spell using its rebirth ability follows the rules for paying alternative costs in rules 601.2b and 601.2e–g.
702.XXa Rebirth represents a static ability that functions while the card is in a player's graveyard. "Rebirth [cost]" means "You may cast this card from your graveyard by paying [cost] rather than paying its mana cost. If you do, this permanent enters the battlefield with a death counter on it and gains 'If this permanent would leave the battlefield, exile it instead.'" Casting a spell using its rebirth ability follows the rules for paying alternative costs in rules 601.2b and 601.2e–g. The permanent the spell becomes will also have that ability (see rule 400.7a).
702.XXa Rebirth represents a static ability that functions while the card is in a player's graveyard. "Rebirth [cost]" means "You may cast this card from your graveyard by paying [cost] rather than paying its mana cost. If you do, this permanent enters the battlefield with a death counter on it. If this permanent would leave the battlefield, exile it instead of putting it anywhere else." Casting a spell using its rebirth ability follows the rules for paying alternative costs in rules 601.2b and 601.2e–g.
702.XXa Rebirth represents two static abilities: one that functions while the card is in a player's graveyard and the other that functions while the card is on the battlefield. "Rebirth [cost]" means "You may cast this card from your graveyard by paying [cost] rather than paying its mana cost. If you do, this permanent enters the battlefield with a death counter on it" and "If the rebirth cost was paid, exile this card instead of putting it anywhere else if it would leave the battlefield." Casting a spell using its rebirth ability follows the rules for paying alternative costs in rules 601.2b and 601.2e–g.702.XXa Rebirth represents two static abilities: one that functions while the card is in a player's graveyard and the other that functions while the card is on the battlefield. "Rebirth [cost]" means "You may cast this card from your graveyard by paying [cost] rather than paying its mana cost. If you do, this permanent enters the battlefield with a death counter on it" and "If this permanent would leave the battlefield, if it has a death counter on it, exile it instead of putting it anywhere else." Casting a spell using its rebirth ability follows the rules for paying alternative costs in rules 601.2b and 601.2e–g.
Other details:
* Casting a card by using its rebirth ability works just like casting any other card except you're casting the card from your graveyard rather than your hand.
* A rebirth card cast from your graveyard follows the normal timing rules for creature cards.
* To cast a rebirth card from your graveyard, you must pay its rebirth cost.
* When a rebirth card you cast from your graveyard is countered, it's put back into your graveyard.
(You may cast this card from your graveyard for its rebirth cost. If you do, it enters the battlefield with a death counter on it. If this creature would leave the battlefield, if it has a death counter on it, exile it instead.)
Rebirth {cost} (You may cast this card from your graveyard for its rebirth cost and put a death counter on it. If it would be put anywhere other than the stack or the battlefield, exile it instead.)
The counter is completely unnecessary, unless you want shenanigans that add and/or remove counters to do something:
[indent Rebirth 2W (You may cast this card from your graveyard for its rebirth cost. If you do, it gains “If this object would leave the battlefield, if exile it instead.”)
The official rules for rebirth are as follows:
702.XX. Rebirth
702.XXa Rebirth is a keyword that represents a static ability that functions while the card is in a player’s graveyard. "Rebirth [cost]" means "You may cast this card from your graveyard by paying [cost] rather than paying its mana cost. If you do, it gains ‘If this object would leave the battlefield, if exile it instead.’” Casting a spell using its rebirth ability follows the rules for paying additional costs in rules 601.2b and 601.2e–g. The permanent the spell becomes will also have that ability (see rule 400.7a).
Rebirth (originally named reanimate) was conceived as flashback on creatures and I also drew inspiration from Bogardan Phoenix.
I figured the counter (originally a fate counter) was necessary because late in the game with multiple Anointed Knights or other creatures with rebirth in play, there was potential for memory issues and the possibility of cheating. Which Anointed Knights were played from your graveyard (if any) and would be exiled if they left the battlefield, and which were played from your hand and could be raised from the dead?
The intent was for the creature to be (successfully) cast from the graveyard only once (if it was countered, it would go back to the graveyard).
Originally, the creature with rebirth was exiled when it was put into a graveyard from play if it had a death counter on it, but I changed it to be exiled when it leaves play/would leave play so that it couldn't be Unsummoned or Excommunicated to get around being exiled (reset). I think I would like it if the trick with blinking it, as with unearth, works with rebirth...
I don't necessarily want shenanigans with adding and/or removing counters (Clockspinning, Power Conduit), but I don't see this as being a problem or over-powered, especially since the same can be done with persist and it is even easier to remove -1/-1 counters (with +1/+1 counters and other effects). Removing counters proved to be powerful with persist but not game breaking.
Assuming I really don't need a counter, and I'm not convinced, here's what I've got so far... (flashback works differently as the instant/sorcery spells with flashback are exiled on resolution. Creature spells with rebirth stick around, so you have to remember to exile them many turns later...)
Anointed Knight :symw::symw:
Creature - Human Knight (Common)
First strike
Rebirth :2mana::symw: (You may cast this card from your graveyard for its rebirth cost. If you do, it gains "If this creature would leave the battlefield, exile it instead.")
2/2
Edit: Another general question. Is it okay for creatures to have the same rebirth cost as mana cost? For example, if Anointed Knight had a mana cost of WW and a rebirth cost of WW. Does that confuse things when the game checks whether the rebirth cost was paid? Flashback costs were (mostly) much higher than mana costs, but I assume WotC was just being cautious... and instant/sorceries are harder to deal with/potentially more abusive than creatures...
I believe it's no worse than Nevermaker having the same evoke cost as mana cost; no rules problems whatsoever.
Current New Favorite Person™: Mallory Archer
She knows why.
I am shooting for different rebirth costs than mana costs, but there are cases where I feel it would be more symmetrical and/or aesthetically pleasing for both costs to be the same.
Do you think this card is costed appropriately for a common?
Vengeful Aven 2W
Creature – Bird Soldier (Common)
Flying
Vengeful Aven has first strike as long as it has a death counter on it.
Rebirth 3W (You may cast this card from your graveyard for its rebirth cost. If you do, it enters the battlefield with a death counter on it. If this creature would leave the battlefield, exile it instead.)
2/2
Obviously.
My next question is whether or not this card works as intended:
Dead Rouser 2B
Creature – Human Wizard (Rare)
B,T: Target creature card in your graveyard gains rebirth until end of turn. The rebirth cost is equal to its mana cost. (You may cast that card from your graveyard for its rebirth cost. If you do, it enters the battlefield with a death counter on it. If that creature would leave play, if it has a death counter on it, exile it instead.)
1/1
This is obviously meant to work like Dralnu, Lich Lord; however, instants and sorceries behave differently than permanents. Namely, they are put into the graveyard upon resolution instead of being put onto the battlefield.
My concern is: What would happen if a creature is put onto the battlefield using Dead Rouser's ability, and then Dead Rouser is destroyed/exiled/leaves the battlefield?
(I was thinking about how Goblin Pyromancer can give all Goblin creatures +3/+0 until end of turn, then if it is destroyed/exiled/leaves the battlefield before the beginning of the end step, the destroy all Goblins ability never happens...)
If Dead Rouser leaves the battlefield, does the card put onto the battlefield with Dead Rouser's ability forget that it is to be exiled if it would leave the battlefield? Or does it remember because the rebirth keyword ability has game rules associated with it that have to be followed? And is this not another reason for identifying which creatures were put onto the battlefield via rebirth with a counter?
I initially assumed that you could Stifle "this permanent enters the battlefield with a death counter on it", as with other "When ~this~ enters the battlefield..." triggers, but now I'm not so sure... I believe this may be a static ability rather than a triggered ability... I'm OK with not being able to "cheat" death (counters) with Stifle...
Also, can you Stifle "If this permanent would leave the battlefield, if it has a death counter on it, exile it instead of putting it anywhere else"? Is it a triggered ability, or is it a replacement effect? Can you Stifle the "if it would leave the battlefield..." unearth ability, which this part of the rebirth ability is based on?
It "remembers" and will be exiled rather than put into any other zone.
It is not. Condor's version without a death counter would behave exactly the same way.
None of it whatsoever. None of the abilities described are either activated or triggered.
I haven't decided against Condor's version. It would certainly make the reminder text shorter and free up some space on the card for flavor text...
Rebirth [cost] (You may cast this card from your graveyard for its rebirth cost. If you do, it gains "If this creature would leave the battlefield, exile it instead.")
Surely, the reminder text on a Magic card wouldn't say "object" as in Condor's version? If not "creature", then "card" or "permanent"?
The official rules/comprehensive rules could use "permanent" or "object" (should it be "object" because it gains the ability while the card is on the stack, before it has entered the battlefield?)
If I go with the death counter version, can anyone give the following the thumbs up?
702.XXa Rebirth represents a static ability that functions while the card is in a player’s graveyard. "Rebirth [cost]" means "You may cast this card from your graveyard by paying [cost] rather than paying its mana cost. If you do, this permanent enters the battlefield with a death counter on it. If this permanent would leave the battlefield, if it has a death counter on it, exile it instead of putting it anywhere else." Casting a spell using its rebirth ability follows the rules for paying alternative costs in rules 601.2b and 601.2e–g.
Does all of the above function while the card is in a player's graveyard or only the first part ("You may cast this card from your graveyard by paying [cost] rather than paying its mana cost.")? Is the rest a static ability that functions while the card is on the battlefield?
702.XXa Rebirth represents a static ability that functions while the card is in a player’s graveyard. "Rebirth [cost]" means "You may cast this card from your graveyard by paying [cost] rather than paying its mana cost. If you do, this permanent enters the battlefield with a death counter on it. If this permanent would leave the battlefield, if it has a death counter on it, exile it instead of putting it anywhere else." Casting a spell using its rebirth ability follows the rules for paying alternative costs in rules 601.2b and 601.2e–g.
Rebirth [cost] (You may cast this card from your graveyard for its rebirth cost. If you do, it gains a death counter and "If this creature would leave the battlefield, exile it instead.")
Or
Rebirth [cost] (You may cast this card from your graveyard for its rebirth cost. If you do, put a death counter on it and it gains "If this creature would leave the battlefield, exile it instead.")
Thoughts?
Does this work?
Trusted Scholar U
Creature – Human Wizard (Common)
When Trusted Scholar enters the battlefield, if its rebirth cost was paid, draw a card.
Rebirth 2U (You may cast this card from your graveyard for its rebirth cost. If you do, it enters the battlefield with a death counter on it. If this creature would leave the battlefield, if it has a death counter on it, exile it instead.)
1/1
Rebirth X (X: Return this card from the graveyard to the battlefield with a +1/+1 counter on it [or a -1/-1 counter, your preference]. Exile it if it would leave the battlefield. Rebirth only as a sorcery)
My art blog
Claims:
The kicker variant in WWK will be "Kicker without a kicked effect." - proven wrong Jan 2010 : 2 wrongs
Decks:
:symu::symb: Bloodchief Ascension - Modern
:symb::symr: Rakdos, the Defiler - EDH
:symu::symb::symw: Sharuum the Hegemon - EDH
:symw::symu::symb: Zur the Enchanter - EDH
Is it intentional for Humble effects to allow it to go back to the graveyard? Because it doesn't really need to "gain" an ability. Like with flashback, it is possible for the rules to keep track of how it was cast.
702.XXa Rebirth represents a static abilities that functions while the card is in a player's graveyard. "Rebirth [cost]" means "You may cast this card from your graveyard by paying [cost] rather than paying its mana cost. If you do, it enters the field with a death counter on it and if it would leave the field, exile it instead of putting it anywhere else." Casting a spell using its rebirth ability follows the rules for paying alternative costs in rules 601.2b and 601.2e–g.
Rebirth [cost] (You may cast this card from your graveyard for its rebirth cost. If you do, put a death counter on it and exile it if it would leave the field.)
It was not intentional, but to be honest I didn't think about that interaction. Good catch. But I don't think it's an issue. Rebirth already allows you to "blink" a creature played from the graveyard out of/in to play with a spell like Momentary Blink...
~groan~ I was happy with my updated wording. I thought I had consensus. Anyone else want to chime in?
Rebirth [cost] ([cost: return this card from the graveyard to the battlefield with a death counter on it. Exile it if it would leave the battlefield.)
I would also suggest adding that it can only be Rebirthed as a sorcery.
My art blog
Claims:
The kicker variant in WWK will be "Kicker without a kicked effect." - proven wrong Jan 2010 : 2 wrongs
Decks:
:symu::symb: Bloodchief Ascension - Modern
:symb::symr: Rakdos, the Defiler - EDH
:symu::symb::symw: Sharuum the Hegemon - EDH
:symw::symu::symb: Zur the Enchanter - EDH
The idea is to cast the card for an alternate cost, so it would have all the normal timing restrictions (including normal sorcery speed or flash-y speed) and any additional costs like kicker (but not for other alternate costs like evoke). Unearth is a half-way attempt at flashback for permanents, but it fails at not being able to use additional costs like kicker. While admittedly no cards with unearth have kicker, it is still something that can't be done on future cards.
Point taken. So:
Rebirth X (you may cast this card from your graveyard for it's rebirth cost. It enters the battlefield with a death counter. If it would leave the battlefield, exile it.)
The death counter is technically unnecessary, but a good way to remember which creatures have been Rebirthed. It also opens the opportunity for "if ~ has a death counter on it" abilities. I'd still change it to a -1/-1 counter, considering it allows you to make the rebirth costs smaller and give the creatures bigger effects when they have -1/-1 counters on them.
My art blog
Claims:
The kicker variant in WWK will be "Kicker without a kicked effect." - proven wrong Jan 2010 : 2 wrongs
Decks:
:symu::symb: Bloodchief Ascension - Modern
:symb::symr: Rakdos, the Defiler - EDH
:symu::symb::symw: Sharuum the Hegemon - EDH
:symw::symu::symb: Zur the Enchanter - EDH
(You may cast this card from your graveyard for its rebirth cost. If you do, it enters the battlefield with a death counter on it. If this creature would leave the battlefield, exile it instead.)
Thanks everyone for your input!
I disgree and think that the "If this creature would leave the battlefield, exile it instead" effect would only occur if the event that put the permanent onto the battlefield was that the rebirth cost was paid.
Can someone please confirm? The intent, obviously, is that creatures with rebirth can be cast from the graveyard even if they have been put there from play...
For reference:
Anointed Knight WW
Creature – Human Knight (Common)
First strike
Rebirth 2W (You may cast this card from your graveyard for its rebirth cost. If you do, it enters the battlefield with a death counter on it. If this creature would leave the battlefield, exile it instead.)
2/2
The official rules for rebirth are as follows:
702.XXa Rebirth represents a static ability that functions while the card is in a player's graveyard. "Rebirth [cost]" means "You may cast this card from your graveyard by paying [cost] rather than paying its mana cost. If you do, this permanent enters the battlefield with a death counter on it. If this permanent would leave the battlefield, exile it instead of putting it anywhere else." Casting a spell using its rebirth ability follows the rules for paying alternative costs in rules 601.2b and 601.2e–g.
* Casting a card by using its rebirth ability works just like casting any other card except you're casting the card from your graveyard rather than your hand.
* A rebirth card cast from your graveyard follows the normal timing rules for creature cards.
* To cast a rebirth card from your graveyard, you must pay its rebirth cost.
* When a rebirth card you cast from your graveyard is countered, it's put back into your graveyard.