Hey, guys. I'm Arc, I just started playing a couple months ago, all I have are the four Time Spiral theme decks, so if I ask a dumb question, please forgive me. Be gentle.
Is it possible to have a card with the type "creature enchantment"? What about "enchantment land"? I know there are artifact creatures and artifact lands.... what about a "creature enchantment artifact land"? Or am I just crazy?
More importantly, what if a creature has no power/toughness? Not 0/0, but none; can that even be done?
And even more importantly, what if there was a card that was the type "artifact sorcery"? Would it stay in play or go to the graveyard after resolving? Or would it be unable to resolve? Or would it just sort of float in space, not played, but still played?
I know these are really weird questions, but I was wondering if the Comprehensive Rules had some provision to protect against exactly this type of shenanigans.
Hey, guys. I'm Arc, I just started playing a couple months ago, all I have are the four Time Spiral theme decks, so if I ask a dumb question, please forgive me. Be gentle.
We all had to start sometime. ^^
Is it possible to have a card with the type "creature enchantment"? What about "enchantment land"? I know there are artifact creatures and artifact lands.... what about a "creature enchantment artifact land"? Or am I just crazy?
I don't think this would be possible. A creature is not allowed to enchant another creature, so Creature Enchantment would not work. I don't believe Enchantment Land would work either for much the same reason.
See the Licid cycle for how creatures can act as enchantments.
More importantly, what if a creature has no power/toughness? Not 0/0, but none; can that even be done?
This does not happen, either. A card would not be a creature without a printed (or added on) power and tougness. It will at least be a 0/0.
And even more importantly, what if there was a card that was the type "artifact sorcery"? Would it stay in play or go to the graveyard after resolving? Or would it be unable to resolve? Or would it just sort of float in space, not played, but still played?
A lot of the questions you're asking are situations that have never, and probably never will, happened. This is because they go against all logic as far as design and development are concerned. The closest thing would be cards you can sacrifice for an effect.
I know these are really weird questions, but I was wondering if the Comprehensive Rules had some provision to protect against exactly this type of shenanigans.
I don't know where you would find this in the Comp Rules, if it even is there, but R&D would probably never do things like this simply because of how illogical they are and how they wouldn't play very well with the way the rules are set up. -Jack
0/0 is no power and toughness. A creature with 0 toughness ceases to exist in the game and is put into the graveyard.
Is it possible to have the types your described? Yes but not it wouldn't show up like that. For instance there is a TS card which is a throw back to the old enchantments that turned into creatures. I forget the name.
All super types are possible just some aren't pracitcal and therefore are not printed.
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RnD during Time Spiral:
Rosewater: "Color Pie, WTF is that, If I want Black to be able to wrath, counter and have green creatures then I will damnit!"
Random RnD guy: "RED AKORMA! FTW!"
Gleemax: "Rosewater has broken out of my mind control!"
RnD after 2008:
MaRo: Hmm how do we fix the problems of pricing with cards like Tarmogoyf and Thoughtsieze
Random RnD Guy: OO lets make a new RED RARITY SYMBOL!
MARO: OMGWTFBBQ! Thats a great idea, we'll call it Mythic Rarity!
Gleemax: NOT AGAIN! CELEB
Hey, guys. I'm Arc, I just started playing a couple months ago, all I have are the four Time Spiral theme decks, so if I ask a dumb question, please forgive me. Be gentle.
Is it possible to have a card with the type "creature enchantment"?
Can't think of a way to do this off the top of my head.
I know there are artifact creatures and artifact lands.... what about a "creature enchantment artifact land"? Or am I just crazy?
"Artifact creature land" is easy enough in one card: Mishra's Factory. I can't think of a way to add the Enchantment type that doesn't strip the creature type (Soul Sculptor).
More importantly, what if a creature has no power/toughness? Not 0/0, but none; can that even be done?
It's quite easy for a creature to have "undefined" power and toughness, however the game will treat this as 0 for anything that matters.
And even more importantly, what if there was a card that was the type "artifact sorcery"? Would it stay in play or go to the graveyard after resolving? Or would it be unable to resolve? Or would it just sort of float in space, not played, but still played?
There is currently no combination of effects I can think of that would make this possible. Even if it were, the rules on sorceries would never allow it to enter play.
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I am no longer on MTGS staff, so please don't contact me asking me to do staff things. :|
A land (or creature) that is also an enchantment is perfectly legal - WotC just hasn't printed any yet.
A card that is naturally a creature ("Creature" on the type line) must have a power and toughness, though not necessarily a defined value or a value greater than 0 for either. But I'm sure if WotC wanted to do one without p/t, they'd find a way.
The same goes for "Artifact Sorcery" - spell types and permanent types don't coexist happily, but again, I'm sure they would add some such provision if they wanted to make that happen.
However, for discussion of non-existent rules possibilities, you need to post this in the Custom Cards Rulings forum. Thread moved.
"Sufficiently advanced experience is indistinguishable from clairvoyance." -Carsten
"Ah those eyes, those horrible creepy eyes!" -Chaosof99
DCI Level 3 Judge & TO "I do not consider myself a hero. I know only what the Vec teach:
justice must always be served and corruption must always be opposed."
Go read! I am one of the three authors of Cranial Insertion.
But seriously, if you can't remember "Woapalanne", just call me Eli.
To answer the first question, if you have in play Conspiracy naming Saproling, Opalescence, Mycosynth Lattice, and Life and Limb, Conspiracy and Life and Limb will end up as "Enchantment Artifact Land Creature - Saproling Forest," I think.
Is it possible to have a card with the type "creature enchantment"? What about "enchantment land"? I know there are artifact creatures and artifact lands.... what about a "creature enchantment artifact land"? Or am I just crazy?
And lo, Horseshoe_Hermit designed for them a creature enchantment:
Magical Guy 1WW
Creature Enchantment - Spirit
Flying
If a spell would deal damage to you, prevent 1 of that damage. Since time immemorial, animated enchantments have existed.
1/2
And it was good.
And lo, He designed for them an enchantment land:
Magical Land {}
Enchantment Land 3: Add two mana of any one color to your mana pool. The flavor rules force enchantments not to have tap abilities, and for lands to have mana abilities. The game rules require lands not to have a mana cost, and only be playable as lands (not spells).
And it was good.
And then, He made for them a card:
Worldly Glop {}
{}
Worldly Glop is artifact, creature, enchantment, and land.
0/1 Thankfully for designers, characteristic-setting abilities apply in every zone. Unfortunately, creatures playable for free are difficult to balance.
And it was relatively satisfactory.
And even more importantly, what if there was a card that was the type "artifact sorcery"? Would it stay in play or go to the graveyard after resolving? Or would it be unable to resolve? Or would it just sort of float in space, not played, but still played?
There could never be an artifact sorcery. Instant and sorcery never, ever hang out with artifact, creature, enchantment, or land. They're just two completely different crowds.
I know these are really weird questions, but I was wondering if the Comprehensive Rules had some provision to protect against exactly this type of shenanigans.
No rule prevents type-strangeness. Just good design that keeps the two worlds completely separate from each other.
The only safeguard is something that says if an instant or sorcery would come into play, it doesn't instead.
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Awesome avatar provided by Krashbot @ [Epic Graphics].
My favorite (old school) example which needs only two cards is:
Play Mishra's Factory, then Copy Artifact it when it is animated.
Now when you pay 1 to animate your Copy-Factory (which is an Enchantment Land) you then have a 2/2 Artifact Enchantment Creature Land - Assembly-Worker until end of turn.
The fine print reason that this works is that "It's still a foo" on an effect means that it keeps all previous card-types in addition to the new ones see Comprehensive Rule 212.1c
212.1c Some effects change an object’s type, supertype, or subtype but specify that the object retains a prior type, supertype, or subtype. In such cases, all the object’s prior types, supertypes, and subtypes are retained. This rule applies to effects that use the phrase “in addition to its types” or that state that something is “still a [type].” Some effects state that an object becomes an “artifact creature”; these effects also allow the object to retain all of its prior types and subtypes.
Example: An ability reads, “All lands are 1/1 creatures that are still lands.” The affected lands now have two types: creature and land. If there were any lands that also had the artifact type before the ability’s effect applied to them, those lands would become “artifact land creatures,” not just “creatures,” or “land creatures.” The effect allows them to retain both the artifact type and the land type.
Example: An ability reads, “All artifacts are 1/1 artifact creatures.” If a permanent is both an artifact and an enchantment, it will become an “artifact enchantment creature.”
As opposed to a permanent of all 4 types, find the typeless permanent generated by combining March of the Machines with Neurok Transmuter on a non-creature artifact to be far more interesting.
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I am no longer on MTGS staff, so please don't contact me asking me to do staff things. :|
There are a few ways to get an artifact creature enchantment land. You can use Life and Limb and something that changes creature types to make something a land, you can use Soul Sculptor and Opalescence in tandem, there's Mycosynth Lattice, you can tinker with Testament of Faith or Neurok Transmuter, etc. It's not easy or even remotely practical, but it is feasible.
About any "subpar" mechanics or cards: Context is king.
If I make a templating or grammar error, let me know.
The franchise MtG most resembles is Battlestar Galactica. Why? Its players exist in, at most, a dozen different models at any given point in time, with perhaps up to 3% variation, 5% if you're lucky.
Is it possible to have a card with the type "creature enchantment"?
Yes. Both in the way illustrated above. However there has never been a card printed with both of these types printed on the card but its not what you think. "Creature Enchantment" used to be the card type of enchantments that could only enchant creatures. These are now auras.
There are no enchantments that are also creatures. There are a few which turn into creatures when an effect happens, and one which has a static effect, making all enchantments into creatures (opalescence), however there is no card with both the type 'enchantment' and 'creature'
What about "enchantment land"?
See above. Again, never printed.
I know there are artifact creatures and artifact lands.... what about a "creature enchantment artifact land"? Or am I just crazy?
You're crazy :P. There's artifact lands and artifact creatures, but thats all. Enchantments really aren't very well suited to being anything else... They're like magical effects that sit around and do stuff.
Yes, you can forcefully create an 'enchantment artifact creature land' by combining various effects, but an enchantment + some other supertype has never been printed on one card
There are various odd enchantment types though: Enchant world, enchant enchantment, enchant artifact, enchant land, enchant player, enchant creature... etc. These were all various subtypes of enchantments that existed before MTG came up with the keyword Aura. Don't worry, you wont see any of these anymore (Well, maybe enchant world will come back eventually)
More importantly, what if a creature has no power/toughness? Not 0/0, but none; can that even be done?
No. Well... Actually. Vesuvan Doppelganger might somehow be able to... I think it's been given errata to be 0/0 though, so if theres no targets to 'clone' it just dies.
And even more importantly, what if there was a card that was the type "artifact sorcery"?
This is hard to judge. I dont think it will ever happen. I dont think a permanant can also be a spell intended to go to the graveyard - Its the fundamental difference between a permanant and a non-permanant
I know these are really weird questions, but I was wondering if the Comprehensive Rules had some provision to protect against exactly this type of shenanigans.
The comprehensive rules cover exisiting cards. Most of the types you named do not yet exist, and thus are not covered in the rules.
Is it possible to have a card with the type "creature enchantment"? What about "enchantment land"? I know there are artifact creatures and artifact lands.... what about a "creature enchantment artifact land"? Or am I just crazy?
More importantly, what if a creature has no power/toughness? Not 0/0, but none; can that even be done?
And even more importantly, what if there was a card that was the type "artifact sorcery"? Would it stay in play or go to the graveyard after resolving? Or would it be unable to resolve? Or would it just sort of float in space, not played, but still played?
I know these are really weird questions, but I was wondering if the Comprehensive Rules had some provision to protect against exactly this type of shenanigans.
We all had to start sometime. ^^
I don't think this would be possible. A creature is not allowed to enchant another creature, so Creature Enchantment would not work. I don't believe Enchantment Land would work either for much the same reason.
See the Licid cycle for how creatures can act as enchantments.
This does not happen, either. A card would not be a creature without a printed (or added on) power and tougness. It will at least be a 0/0.
A lot of the questions you're asking are situations that have never, and probably never will, happened. This is because they go against all logic as far as design and development are concerned. The closest thing would be cards you can sacrifice for an effect.
I don't know where you would find this in the Comp Rules, if it even is there, but R&D would probably never do things like this simply because of how illogical they are and how they wouldn't play very well with the way the rules are set up. -Jack
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Is it possible to have the types your described? Yes but not it wouldn't show up like that. For instance there is a TS card which is a throw back to the old enchantments that turned into creatures. I forget the name.
All super types are possible just some aren't pracitcal and therefore are not printed.
Rosewater: "Color Pie, WTF is that, If I want Black to be able to wrath, counter and have green creatures then I will damnit!"
Random RnD guy: "RED AKORMA! FTW!"
Gleemax: "Rosewater has broken out of my mind control!"
RnD after 2008:
MaRo: Hmm how do we fix the problems of pricing with cards like Tarmogoyf and Thoughtsieze
Random RnD Guy: OO lets make a new RED RARITY SYMBOL!
MARO: OMGWTFBBQ! Thats a great idea, we'll call it Mythic Rarity!
Gleemax: NOT AGAIN!
CELEB
Sure, just look at Halcyon Glaze.
Can't think of a way to do this off the top of my head.
"Artifact creature land" is easy enough in one card: Mishra's Factory. I can't think of a way to add the Enchantment type that doesn't strip the creature type (Soul Sculptor).
It's quite easy for a creature to have "undefined" power and toughness, however the game will treat this as 0 for anything that matters.
There is currently no combination of effects I can think of that would make this possible. Even if it were, the rules on sorceries would never allow it to enter play.
A card that is naturally a creature ("Creature" on the type line) must have a power and toughness, though not necessarily a defined value or a value greater than 0 for either. But I'm sure if WotC wanted to do one without p/t, they'd find a way.
The same goes for "Artifact Sorcery" - spell types and permanent types don't coexist happily, but again, I'm sure they would add some such provision if they wanted to make that happen.
However, for discussion of non-existent rules possibilities, you need to post this in the Custom Cards Rulings forum. Thread moved.
"Sufficiently advanced experience is indistinguishable from clairvoyance." -Carsten
"Ah those eyes, those horrible creepy eyes!" -Chaosof99
DCI Level 3 Judge & TO
"I do not consider myself a hero. I know only what the Vec teach:
justice must always be served and corruption must always be opposed."
Go read! I am one of the three authors of Cranial Insertion.
But seriously, if you can't remember "Woapalanne", just call me Eli.
And lo, Horseshoe_Hermit designed for them a creature enchantment:
Magical Guy 1WW
Creature Enchantment - Spirit
Flying
If a spell would deal damage to you, prevent 1 of that damage.
Since time immemorial, animated enchantments have existed.
1/2
And it was good.
And lo, He designed for them an enchantment land:
Magical Land {}
Enchantment Land
3: Add two mana of any one color to your mana pool.
The flavor rules force enchantments not to have tap abilities, and for lands to have mana abilities. The game rules require lands not to have a mana cost, and only be playable as lands (not spells).
And it was good.
And then, He made for them a card:
Worldly Glop {}
{}
Worldly Glop is artifact, creature, enchantment, and land.
0/1
Thankfully for designers, characteristic-setting abilities apply in every zone. Unfortunately, creatures playable for free are difficult to balance.
And it was relatively satisfactory.
There could never be an artifact sorcery. Instant and sorcery never, ever hang out with artifact, creature, enchantment, or land. They're just two completely different crowds.
No rule prevents type-strangeness. Just good design that keeps the two worlds completely separate from each other.
The only safeguard is something that says if an instant or sorcery would come into play, it doesn't instead.
Awesome avatar provided by Krashbot @ [Epic Graphics].
Play Mishra's Factory, then Copy Artifact it when it is animated.
Now when you pay 1 to animate your Copy-Factory (which is an Enchantment Land) you then have a 2/2 Artifact Enchantment Creature Land - Assembly-Worker until end of turn.
The fine print reason that this works is that "It's still a foo" on an effect means that it keeps all previous card-types in addition to the new ones see Comprehensive Rule 212.1c
212.1c Some effects change an object’s type, supertype, or subtype but specify that the object retains a prior type, supertype, or subtype. In such cases, all the object’s prior types, supertypes, and subtypes are retained. This rule applies to effects that use the phrase “in addition to its types” or that state that something is “still a [type].” Some effects state that an object becomes an “artifact creature”; these effects also allow the object to retain all of its prior types and subtypes.
Example: An ability reads, “All lands are 1/1 creatures that are still lands.” The affected lands now have two types: creature and land. If there were any lands that also had the artifact type before the ability’s effect applied to them, those lands would become “artifact land creatures,” not just “creatures,” or “land creatures.” The effect allows them to retain both the artifact type and the land type.
Example: An ability reads, “All artifacts are 1/1 artifact creatures.” If a permanent is both an artifact and an enchantment, it will become an “artifact enchantment creature.”
About any "subpar" mechanics or cards: Context is king.
If I make a templating or grammar error, let me know.
The franchise MtG most resembles is Battlestar Galactica. Why? Its players exist in, at most, a dozen different models at any given point in time, with perhaps up to 3% variation, 5% if you're lucky.
Yes. Both in the way illustrated above. However there has never been a card printed with both of these types printed on the card but its not what you think. "Creature Enchantment" used to be the card type of enchantments that could only enchant creatures. These are now auras.
There are no enchantments that are also creatures. There are a few which turn into creatures when an effect happens, and one which has a static effect, making all enchantments into creatures (opalescence), however there is no card with both the type 'enchantment' and 'creature'
See above. Again, never printed.
You're crazy :P. There's artifact lands and artifact creatures, but thats all. Enchantments really aren't very well suited to being anything else... They're like magical effects that sit around and do stuff.
Yes, you can forcefully create an 'enchantment artifact creature land' by combining various effects, but an enchantment + some other supertype has never been printed on one card
There are various odd enchantment types though: Enchant world, enchant enchantment, enchant artifact, enchant land, enchant player, enchant creature... etc. These were all various subtypes of enchantments that existed before MTG came up with the keyword Aura. Don't worry, you wont see any of these anymore (Well, maybe enchant world will come back eventually)
No. Well... Actually. Vesuvan Doppelganger might somehow be able to... I think it's been given errata to be 0/0 though, so if theres no targets to 'clone' it just dies.
This is hard to judge. I dont think it will ever happen. I dont think a permanant can also be a spell intended to go to the graveyard - Its the fundamental difference between a permanant and a non-permanant
The comprehensive rules cover exisiting cards. Most of the types you named do not yet exist, and thus are not covered in the rules.
Hope this helps