So color fixing... free mana (tap land, return land, replay land, tap land)... and if it would get destroyed you return it to your hand with its own level up and are likely down only one land drop of tempo for one turn?
I don't understand what you mean. You can't bounce it in response because Level up is a sorcery speed action only. And I think you'll lose a lot more than a single land drop. If you're slow rolling it, you need to spend your land drop 5 turns in a row. If you're getting it up to max as soon as you play it, you'll lose a lot more than that.
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"In the beginning, MTG Salvation switched to a new forum format.
This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move."
It was at that moment that I realized: I'm kinda just making these things up. We can just write the rules the way we want them to work. People will have fun, and people will get it.
MOON-E: You misunderstand. Naanomi is quite right: the card is blatantly overpowered.
Pros:
1) When you have no lands in hand, it's mana accel, acting as if you had a land in hand. Tap a land, use the level-up ability on that land, replay the land and tap it again.
2) Color fix: When you've returned 5 lands to your hand, it makes WUBRG.
3) When you drop a land wipe you save all your lands. Play it, level it up to 5 immediately, tap it, level it up with itself, cast Armageddon.
Cons:
Can someone offer one? >_< Sure, if you play it badly it could backfire, but that's a silly argument. If you're playing it properly it's only at most going to set you back one land drop (in response to the first level-up, destroy it). Entirely worth the benefits no matter in which of the above ways you build around it.
I've never seen a card posted on here that didn't get complaints of "broken." "powerful" and "broken" are not the same thing. This is powerful, not broken. It doesn't win you the game, it sets you back any number of land drops, and makes wubrg if you can do it. Seems like the ten mana turn 6 isn't unfair if they have to bounce all other lands.
I've never seen a card posted on here that didn't get complaints of "broken." "powerful" and "broken" are not the same thing. This is powerful, not broken. It doesn't win you the game, it sets you back any number of land drops, and makes wubrg if you can do it. Seems like the ten mana turn 6 isn't unfair if they have to bounce all other lands.
It is "broken" , as is Tolarian Academy.
Its just that you play different cards than in Academy decks.
Instead of artifacts (obvisious) you simply ramp to level this up and combo out.
Even without any untap effects its a +5 mana boost as you just sacrifice your lands you dont need anyway ; or it generates "more" mana with Exploration and friends.
The effect has a giant amount of upsides and theirs really not much on this card that makes it bad.
The final level up should be way higher, so you can't simply abuse it without any effort turn 5.
A card is "powerfull" if its above standards or leads the field in its ability (like Baneslayer was insane as it was the first brutal 5-drop ; but right now theirs so much stuff, that Baneslayer is not even considerer "powerfull" for standard decks, its just merly good).
However, "Broken" means you can potentially build decks that totally dominate a format ; and this card "could" be a centerpiece in format and do totally "broken" things that just instantly win a game.
You could even go in an advanced mode and name cards "broken powerfull" , which would mean they are leading the field on broken cards, which might easily be the best of the best cards ever printed (power 9 and stuff).
The actual balance of the card is difficult ; but a higher end-level would help for sure (like 8).
This doesn't require Fastbond to be broken. Uncounterable mana doubling on turn 6, consistent uncounterable mana accel, and the ability to make your land sweeps completely one-sided all put into a single land = utter brokenness.
Level Up - Return a land you control that entered the battlefield this turn to your hand.
Prevents you from doing the sweep - Armageddon combo too easily, but still allows you to do things with harrow and teramorphic that would be interesting. On Turn 2 your not living too large as you'd have to bounce the land you just played, thereby putting you back a bit in any normal scenario. I don't think the lands you bounce have to be untapped as the restriction is big enough as it is. It does however give low mana cost landfall decks something to do every turn.
In response to you bouncing your last land, boomerang. Oops. It is something you can respond to. Oh, you are powering up slowly, let me try one of many 4 cmc land destruction spells.
Oh, crap, you're right! News flash, everyone: every deck needs to run land destruction to be playable! We all forgot that important fact!
I do see how an effect like this could be seen as broken, but could anyone give me a concrete example of exactly how you would use it to win in a competitive environment (Block, Standard, Extended, Vintage, or Legacy)?
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I primarily play limited, so most of my spoiler season comments view cards through that lens.
Oh, crap, you're right! News flash, everyone: every deck needs to run land destruction to be playable! We all forgot that important fact!
Many decks in standard already run Tectonic edges. Beast Within, Hex Parasite, and Deciever Exarch are all answers that are probably already going to see play in their respective decks, and that's just instant speed in standard. It seems like there are ample ways to deal with this card in every format it could be viable. I'm not trying to say that its not insanely powerful, just that it wouldn't be as broken as it seems.
I think it should probably be legendary and mythic, but I don't think its broken.
Private Mod Note
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Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"In the beginning, MTG Salvation switched to a new forum format.
This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move."
It was at that moment that I realized: I'm kinda just making these things up. We can just write the rules the way we want them to work. People will have fun, and people will get it.
T1, play a normal land. (1 mana)
T2, play this. Tap normal land, bounce normal land. Tap this (2 mana)
At this point, you'd say "fair" because it does not give you more mana. But note that you are getting any color out of one of those lands.
T3, play the normal land again, tap it. Tap this. (2 mana)
T4, tap normal land, bounce, play, tap. Tap this (3 mana)
It is not broken in the way, say, Fastbond or Gush are broken, but it is pretty critical to realize that many decks will not draw more than two land for a few turns in older formats. Eventually, it will hit level 5 and tap for absurd amount of mana.
The land pretty much obsoletes Undiscovered Paradise.
I don't think it is broken for one reason: Wasteland. Decks that do not pack wasteland will see they will have a hard time playing against it.
In non-standard, something like EDH:
Play the game as normal, get to 8ish lands. Tap those lands (8 mana) plop this down, pull 8 lands up, tap this (13 mana). Cast a Fireball or other X spell. Discard all of lands to an effect, like Retrace, Seismic Assault, etc.
I can't believe people think this card is broken...
I love the design of the card, but it absolutely is not broken... at maximum it doubles your mana ONCE... after that you still haven't done anything
Also 90-95% of every edh decks have tect edge, strip mine, wasteland, many have dust bowl as well.
On top of that most decks have 1-5 spells that kill land...
Again... on turn 6 your might be able to ramp 5 more mana, but many games are done by turn 6. On top of that the one problem people are identifying with this card is fastbond which happens to be banned... so I am confused why people are even bothering to compare it
I really dont feel like this card is broken, I love its versatility and hope that something like this will be printed someday
In response to you bouncing your last land, boomerang. Oops. It is something you can respond to. Oh, you are powering up slowly, let me try one of many 4 cmc land destruction spells.
This. If the opponent returns all their lands to his hand and tries to play Armageddon, you can always counterspell that as well.
I agree that this should have been Mythic though, and maybe even legendary.
I like this card but I am a minmaxer, This card should likely be legendary. The thing I see most people useing it for is (atleast in legacy) bouncing lands responsive to peoples waistlands. (unless I misunderstand the mechanics and its only sorcery timing)
I like this card but I am a minmaxer, This card should likely be legendary. The thing I see most people useing it for is (atleast in legacy) bouncing lands responsive to peoples waistlands. (unless I misunderstand the mechanics and its only sorcery timing)
Pretty neat. Won't fit into any EDH deck as you'd have to have a 5 color general. This card loves Proliferate. Think there's enough land destruction in EDH to keep it from being too silly.
One of the most popular generals is Horde of Notions - perfect fit
There is a thin line between powerful and broken, however, people maybe only be looking at this through Standard's eyes, where it will just be unplayable.
For the older sets, with something like Mana Bond or Explortation, and untap effects, I could imagine something going wrong.
Card is good should be legendary. I don't believe it's broken in Standard nor older formats like Legacy. You just auto lose if your opponent has a wasteland since level up is sorcery speed. In Standard if you try to level it up all the way in one turn - you better hope your opponent doesn't have a Tectonic Edge. Again I think the card is awesome and good but not broken.
I always like to look at cards to see their playability from this site and look at what is being made. I could only laugh at the amazing combos that could be accomplished with such a beast of a land. Wish lvl up mechanic would come back and they print that haha.
... it doesn't seem too broken in legacy. no one would really activate it unless they had taken care of wasteland and Rishadan Port, both which run rampant in legacy.
Making it send untapped lands would just leave unplayable.... it's really flavorful and well done, congrats.
Awesome use of the Level Up mechanic! I think the card is fine the way it is... not really any way it can be abuse that I can think of. Great synergies with Sunburst and Landfall.
A card should not be considered "fair" just because the set it is in somehow fixes it, as it simply doesnt allow the card to have an effect.
A combo card for example is just "broken" if it actual has a combo to work with, its pretty much meaningless otherwise.
So in this view, combo cards are not really "broken" , the Combo is broken, but the cards on their own are not.
However, if a card "itself" is broken, it means it has the potential to warp formats around it; so in this view it depends on "that" format.
Theirs enough cards that define formats, as they are the best of the cards, so this is no problem, like Stoneforge Mystic pushes Equipments by a lot ; and Lotus Cobra all by itself produces mana ramp decks.
Planeswalkers (the actual good ones, jace, gideon, koth) could easily be considered "broken", as they are strong enough to push the color they are in by a lot and would dominate formats (so everyone must play answers or just die against them, which further pushes creature decks, something Wizards wants anyway).
The point with this land is that on its own, the effect is strong ; to make it broken it needs something to combo with; so yes, theirs reasons to say the card "itself" is not "broken" , good for sure no question, and combos with it might prove "broken" aswell.
Exploration type effects could easily go out of hand with this card, getting an "infinited" amount of lands is something that is a potential source of problems.
Ghost City for example gives a good idea, it has a giant drawback as it would otherwise work exactly in the "potentially broken" way with Exploration / Fastbond and stuff like that.
Yes Fastbond itself is broken, true no question.
The real deal of the card is the ability to bounce your lands without a manacost or any real limitation; such abilities are just a matter of combo pieces to be insane.
As a card designer it might look totally welcome to do such a thing, but especially on lands, potentially combos should be avoided ; as a combo with this card would just be insane using lands to win where nobody can really interact with you (beside Wasteland, which would also be an totally stupid format, if it means, do i start with wasteland ? no, then i lose, next game).
It might also work if the land limits the bounce to 1 a turn ; could easily fix it instantly, as the potential for infinited combos is pretty much removed.
Just look how carefull Wizard is with lands that could be combos somehow; they give them giant drawbacks (and at the second Dark Deepths gets a combo piece, its ridiculous).
So just to fuel the discussion, how could the card look to actual meat the standards of a "not infinited combo" card ?
(which really should be a small piece to watch for)
I don't understand what you mean. You can't bounce it in response because Level up is a sorcery speed action only. And I think you'll lose a lot more than a single land drop. If you're slow rolling it, you need to spend your land drop 5 turns in a row. If you're getting it up to max as soon as you play it, you'll lose a lot more than that.
This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move."
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Pros:
1) When you have no lands in hand, it's mana accel, acting as if you had a land in hand. Tap a land, use the level-up ability on that land, replay the land and tap it again.
2) Color fix: When you've returned 5 lands to your hand, it makes WUBRG.
3) When you drop a land wipe you save all your lands. Play it, level it up to 5 immediately, tap it, level it up with itself, cast Armageddon.
Cons:
Can someone offer one? >_< Sure, if you play it badly it could backfire, but that's a silly argument. If you're playing it properly it's only at most going to set you back one land drop (in response to the first level-up, destroy it). Entirely worth the benefits no matter in which of the above ways you build around it.
It is "broken" , as is Tolarian Academy.
Its just that you play different cards than in Academy decks.
Instead of artifacts (obvisious) you simply ramp to level this up and combo out.
Even without any untap effects its a +5 mana boost as you just sacrifice your lands you dont need anyway ; or it generates "more" mana with Exploration and friends.
The effect has a giant amount of upsides and theirs really not much on this card that makes it bad.
The final level up should be way higher, so you can't simply abuse it without any effort turn 5.
A card is "powerfull" if its above standards or leads the field in its ability (like Baneslayer was insane as it was the first brutal 5-drop ; but right now theirs so much stuff, that Baneslayer is not even considerer "powerfull" for standard decks, its just merly good).
However, "Broken" means you can potentially build decks that totally dominate a format ; and this card "could" be a centerpiece in format and do totally "broken" things that just instantly win a game.
You could even go in an advanced mode and name cards "broken powerfull" , which would mean they are leading the field on broken cards, which might easily be the best of the best cards ever printed (power 9 and stuff).
The actual balance of the card is difficult ; but a higher end-level would help for sure (like 8).
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It reminds me of Menghai Forest.
Level Up - Return a land you control that entered the battlefield this turn to your hand.
Prevents you from doing the sweep - Armageddon combo too easily, but still allows you to do things with harrow and teramorphic that would be interesting. On Turn 2 your not living too large as you'd have to bounce the land you just played, thereby putting you back a bit in any normal scenario. I don't think the lands you bounce have to be untapped as the restriction is big enough as it is. It does however give low mana cost landfall decks something to do every turn.
Getting 10 mana in turn 6 is no big deal:
Grand architect deck:
turn 1 land, criptologist
turn 2 land, thrumming bird
turn 3 land grand architect
turn 4 land treasure mage getting caged sun
turn 5... etc.
Aura enchantress
turn 1 forest, arbor elf
turn 2 plains, kor spirit dancer
turn 3 forest, trace of abundance on a forest, untap with the elf, etc.
Personally i think the card is amazing although it should be legendary.
I wonder why?
Oh, right, because it's complete bull☺☺☺☺.
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Many decks in standard already run Tectonic edges. Beast Within, Hex Parasite, and Deciever Exarch are all answers that are probably already going to see play in their respective decks, and that's just instant speed in standard. It seems like there are ample ways to deal with this card in every format it could be viable. I'm not trying to say that its not insanely powerful, just that it wouldn't be as broken as it seems.
I think it should probably be legendary and mythic, but I don't think its broken.
This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move."
Comic Book Set
Archester: Frontier of Steam (A steampunk set!)
A Good Place to Start Designing
T1, play a normal land. (1 mana)
T2, play this. Tap normal land, bounce normal land. Tap this (2 mana)
At this point, you'd say "fair" because it does not give you more mana. But note that you are getting any color out of one of those lands.
T3, play the normal land again, tap it. Tap this. (2 mana)
T4, tap normal land, bounce, play, tap. Tap this (3 mana)
It is not broken in the way, say, Fastbond or Gush are broken, but it is pretty critical to realize that many decks will not draw more than two land for a few turns in older formats. Eventually, it will hit level 5 and tap for absurd amount of mana.
The land pretty much obsoletes Undiscovered Paradise.
I don't think it is broken for one reason: Wasteland. Decks that do not pack wasteland will see they will have a hard time playing against it.
In non-standard, something like EDH:
Play the game as normal, get to 8ish lands. Tap those lands (8 mana) plop this down, pull 8 lands up, tap this (13 mana). Cast a Fireball or other X spell. Discard all of lands to an effect, like Retrace, Seismic Assault, etc.
Not broken, but powerful.
I love the design of the card, but it absolutely is not broken... at maximum it doubles your mana ONCE... after that you still haven't done anything
Also 90-95% of every edh decks have tect edge, strip mine, wasteland, many have dust bowl as well.
On top of that most decks have 1-5 spells that kill land...
Again... on turn 6 your might be able to ramp 5 more mana, but many games are done by turn 6. On top of that the one problem people are identifying with this card is fastbond which happens to be banned... so I am confused why people are even bothering to compare it
I really dont feel like this card is broken, I love its versatility and hope that something like this will be printed someday
This. If the opponent returns all their lands to his hand and tries to play Armageddon, you can always counterspell that as well.
I agree that this should have been Mythic though, and maybe even legendary.
Level up can only be activated as a Sorcery yes.
One of the most popular generals is Horde of Notions - perfect fit
For the older sets, with something like Mana Bond or Explortation, and untap effects, I could imagine something going wrong.
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=378565
... it doesn't seem too broken in legacy. no one would really activate it unless they had taken care of wasteland and Rishadan Port, both which run rampant in legacy.
Making it send untapped lands would just leave unplayable.... it's really flavorful and well done, congrats.
A combo card for example is just "broken" if it actual has a combo to work with, its pretty much meaningless otherwise.
So in this view, combo cards are not really "broken" , the Combo is broken, but the cards on their own are not.
However, if a card "itself" is broken, it means it has the potential to warp formats around it; so in this view it depends on "that" format.
Theirs enough cards that define formats, as they are the best of the cards, so this is no problem, like Stoneforge Mystic pushes Equipments by a lot ; and Lotus Cobra all by itself produces mana ramp decks.
Planeswalkers (the actual good ones, jace, gideon, koth) could easily be considered "broken", as they are strong enough to push the color they are in by a lot and would dominate formats (so everyone must play answers or just die against them, which further pushes creature decks, something Wizards wants anyway).
The point with this land is that on its own, the effect is strong ; to make it broken it needs something to combo with; so yes, theirs reasons to say the card "itself" is not "broken" , good for sure no question, and combos with it might prove "broken" aswell.
Exploration type effects could easily go out of hand with this card, getting an "infinited" amount of lands is something that is a potential source of problems.
Ghost City for example gives a good idea, it has a giant drawback as it would otherwise work exactly in the "potentially broken" way with Exploration / Fastbond and stuff like that.
Yes Fastbond itself is broken, true no question.
The real deal of the card is the ability to bounce your lands without a manacost or any real limitation; such abilities are just a matter of combo pieces to be insane.
As a card designer it might look totally welcome to do such a thing, but especially on lands, potentially combos should be avoided ; as a combo with this card would just be insane using lands to win where nobody can really interact with you (beside Wasteland, which would also be an totally stupid format, if it means, do i start with wasteland ? no, then i lose, next game).
It might also work if the land limits the bounce to 1 a turn ; could easily fix it instantly, as the potential for infinited combos is pretty much removed.
Just look how carefull Wizard is with lands that could be combos somehow; they give them giant drawbacks (and at the second Dark Deepths gets a combo piece, its ridiculous).
So just to fuel the discussion, how could the card look to actual meat the standards of a "not infinited combo" card ?
(which really should be a small piece to watch for)
WUBRG#BlackLotusMatterWUBRG
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