For next month's YMTC (May), we'll be designing a green enchantment; YMTC hasn't touched that color or card type for a while now. Participation is encouraged for everyone - you can join us by going to the Custom Card Contests & Games subforum, where you'll find the current YMTC thread stickied near the top. These cards are designed entirely through your votes, so make your voice heard!
I really do not like this card, mostly from a vorthos perspective. It makes very little sense that a walker would have his spark ignite more than once. Yeah, we've already got some strange flavor things going on with Koth and Venser, but at least they're both two different cards, while this is a flavor paradox all rolled into one. The flavor disconnect continues with the fact you can ignite his spark any time you feel like.
Even from a design perspective this doesn't really work for me. Do I really want to trade a 4/4 firebreather for a planeswalker if it can't gain loyalty? In order for the walker side to be good you have to deal a ton of damage in the same turn, but if you can do that why not just swing again next turn with your big guy? Destroying all lands is fine and all, but if you have to connect with your big guy in order to do it, do you really need to destroy all lands? Devastating Force is supposed to clear the way for my titan; if I have to sacrifice my titan to cast it, what's the point? The other two abilities are a little better, since the 3/3 fight token at least offers a bit of utility, but the underwhelming ultimate makes me like this card a whole lot less.
And on top of it all, my art didn't win! what a shame...
I don't think this card is terrible, but I don't really like it either. With so many nobs to tweak on a planeswalker, it's hard to design it by vote. Ah well, there's always next month.
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"In the beginning, MTG Salvation switched to a new forum format.
This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move."
It was at that moment that I realized: I'm kinda just making these things up. We can just write the rules the way we want them to work. People will have fun, and people will get it.
It was a very ambitious goal we set, and the timeframe--while realistic--was limiting. Some areas might not have been fully discussed before being moved away from, but it's hard to do without coordinating some kind of play-test.
I see him as functional right now. Ideally, he would be transformable w/o tricks, but I can see situations where all of his abilities would be effective. Don't know if I would play him as my commander in EDH though seeing as how he's a lightning rod.
I really never considered him for duels; if you're going to be dealing a ton of damage to the enemy player, why not just finish him off with your creature instead of bothering with the transform. Maybe if he could transform back with Haste or something to "protect" him during your enemies turns. That kind of calls to mind phasing, which could be kind of cool, but he's still vulnerable as a PW who has to endure a turn of enemy attacks before his abilities can be used--and whoops, I just got rid of one of my biggest creatures that would have protected him.
Ideally more polishing would have been good, focusing on in game scenarios involving what transforming him does to your board position, but it looked like people were just ready to move on in the thread.
Definitely unsatisfying. I simply do not like the 'walker half, especially the fact that he inevitably has to burn himself out, lacking a +1 ability. This was appealing as a one-shot thing on Sarkhan the Mad, but not so much on something you have to pump and flip to power up. His ultimate is largely worse than Ajani Vengeant's. It also makes no sense for him to simply be able to ignite his spark whenever.
Definitely unsatisfying. I simply do not like the 'walker half, especially the fact that he inevitably has to burn himself out, lacking a +1 ability. This was appealing as a one-shot thing on Sarkhan the Mad, but not so much on something you have to pump and flip to power up. His ultimate is largely worse than Ajani Vengeant's. It also makes no sense for him to simply be able to ignite his spark whenever.
Got to agree with this.
Also just got a great idea for it....now.
I guess OP wants it to be 'keyworded' like "dies" was. What word would you replace ETB with though?
When Aegis Angel is born?
When Huntmaster of the Fells arrives?
When Kitchen Sphinx lands?
When Faerie Imposter busts in?
When Dread Cacodemon pops in?
When Malfegor shows up?
I believe this card's greatest flaw is the fact that it can flip whenever. Spark ignition should be involuntary and epic - not an end of turn clause.
That said, this was a really hard design to do by polls. Well done Piar and the rest of those involved for your work.
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:sympu::nod::sym2g::p:symgu:;):symu::cthulhu::symg::cool2::symug::grin3::sym2u::rolleyes::sympg: The Simic: we have glow-in-the-dark milk and self replicating cookies.
1. Good Decks Play With Good Cards
2. Good Decks Have Good Plans
3. Good Decks Have Good Mana Bases
4. Good Decks Respect Their Opponents
5. Good Decks Have 75 Cards
6. Sometimes Even Good Decks Are Bad Choices
7. Sometimes Your 'Good Deck' Isn't
Feels like he wants to be the opposite. Transform all lands then flip into a big raging dude, not be a big raging dude then transform. You want to destroy all lands when you're ahead, not when you're running on limited resources because your big dude turned into a planeswalker with no +1 ability.
Personally, I don't get the hate. While it,s true that the last ability is lacking, I find it cool and flavorful. But I agree that the transform trigger should have been when HE deals combat damage and obligatory. And it would have been flavorful: He deals a blow so mighty, so full of rage, that his sparks ignite.
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If there is such a thing as too much power, I have not discovered it!
He needed trample. If you're able to hit someone with a 4/4 firebreather you probably just finished the game right there. If you didn't then you'd probably be better off keeping the firebreather to hit them again next turn. If they chump block it (tokens) you get nothing and can't flip him any way. I also think it would have been better to just make his flip condition based on if he damaged an opponent. Then you could potentially swing, flip, and activate him the same turn. Instead of turning a decent creature into a planeswalker you have to wait a turn to use. (also would have helped with the spark igniting whenever you feel like)
5 mana really separates the great planeswalkers from the good ones. Having to do work to turn my Firebreathing Fomori Nomad into the worst 5 mana planeswalker ever made is not interesting at all.
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Highest DCI Total Rating: 2041
Highest DCI Limited Rating: 2022
I was playing a draft the second week up avacyn being out and i was constructing my deck when the guy across from me spilled his cherry kool-aid all over mine and his cards, he had a griselbrand and I had a cavern of souls.
(-) I think the transform condition of a planewalker should be akin to Kamigwa flip cards, when you achieve some epic task or "trauma". Look at Garruk.
(-) The resulting PW is not really great as well. A minus only PW is not something I will aspire to flip into.
(+) Defining the number of starting loyalty counters is what I find interesting in this design. Perhaps this can be done in normal PW, but current templates does not allow that.
I like the creature half and the transform condition, but the planeswalker abilities are pretty bad.
If you're using him to blow up lands, it's an Impending Disaster for FIVE mana that they can attack, essentially.
If I'd been designing this card, he'd get loyalty counters the same way War Elemental gets +1/+1 counters when he's a creature, and transform on your upkeep. That way you could get a hefty amount of loyalty. His loyalty abilities are really expensive and you need a lot of counters to make him worth it.
Another idea is to change the -X ability to " If Thag'zul is still in play, transform him. Then, creatures you control get +X/+0 until end of turn." So that you could keep some counters on him and flip him back to net some counters.
I love the art on this card though! Planebreaker indeed, he's huge!
Remember guys, only your vote can decide the final outcome. If you didn't like something about the card, make sure your voice is heard before the final version by participating in YMTC polls!
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"In the beginning, MTG Salvation switched to a new forum format.
This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move."
It was at that moment that I realized: I'm kinda just making these things up. We can just write the rules the way we want them to work. People will have fun, and people will get it.
Remember guys, only your vote can decide the final outcome. If you didn't like something about the card, make sure your voice is heard before the final version by participating in YMTC polls!
Can you post a link? From what I can tell in this thread and the home page, Thag'zul is finished.
Can you post a link? From what I can tell in this thread and the home page, Thag'zul is finished.
Thagzul is finished, but each month there'll be a new card. You can always find the latest poll by clicking the "Custom Card Contests and Games" sub form link above this thread, then scrolling until you see the YMTC label (which will always be towards the top.)
It was at that moment that I realized: I'm kinda just making these things up. We can just write the rules the way we want them to work. People will have fun, and people will get it.
I once farted during the final match for prizes at an FNM. It was a tense moment, everything was quiet, control vs control, I was about to mana leak, thought about it.. and farted. Then mana leaked.
Signing up just to say, I LOVE the idea of this card. He's an interesting self-combo. Transform quickly, play another copy. Use ability 1 maxed, sac planeswalker version, creature version swings in then transforms again with same loyalty as before +4 (or more if you have the red mana).
Now as a flavor junky... (will let others tweak this for playability) In theme of the spark, he should transform if he would die or be exiled (return to battlefield transformed, I guess - it works for Loyal Cathar). Maybe make his toughness 1 or 2 to encourage that possibility (then you could burn him yourself to flip 'em). Plus, I think it may clear up rules questions like... can an opponent Doom Blade (or whatever) the Ogre right before he transforms? Also, the rule:
"Damage marked on a double-faced permanent will stay marked on that permanent after it transforms."
Say, Thag is dealt 2 damage by a defender earlier in the turn (or something). When he flips, would you then put X-2 loyalty counters on him?
Also, can someday we see this treatment be done to famous figures? Teferi? Jaya? Urza?
ummm you mean Garruk's plus ability? (5cmc one) with a tacked on fight mechanic? -3 to bolt a creature or get a 3/3 is pretty terrible if you some how attacked them and got through with your 4/4 firebreather. And he survived until your next turn as a planeswalker.
Another thing, wouldn't you be able to have 2 copies of this guy in play at the same time? 1 flipped, 1 non-flip? That seems very strange.
Shouldn't he have commas after his name ala Jace TMS and others? I like the design a lot. Don't know how good he is, but he's definitely interesting, and the art's great. Good job CCDesigners!
So am I going to be the only one that points out, A big flaw in his walker side is he can only transform during your endstep, meaning, He can't use his walker ability the turn he flips. So as others have pointed out. Whats the point in flipping him when you can just have a big beat stick?
So am I going to be the only one that points out, A big flaw in his walker side is he can only transform during your endstep, meaning, He can't use his walker ability the turn he flips. So as others have pointed out. Whats the point in flipping him when you can just have a big beat stick?
The thing is, many people pointed this out when it came time to vote, and this version still won. Almost everything that was brought up against this card was brought up during the polls, yet ended up not making a difference. Either there's a vocal minority, or people just don't read the thread before voting.
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"In the beginning, MTG Salvation switched to a new forum format.
This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move."
It was at that moment that I realized: I'm kinda just making these things up. We can just write the rules the way we want them to work. People will have fun, and people will get it.
The thing is, many people pointed this out when it came time to vote, and this version still won. Almost everything that was brought up against this card was brought up during the polls, yet ended up not making a difference. Either there's a vocal minority, or people just don't read the thread before voting.
As the lead for YMTC, I try to give everyone plenty of time to read the poll options and the thread to make an informed decision. I hope that our community makes informed decisions, but it did seem to fall short for this card's design as you pointed out. I wouldn't be surprised if people were lazy voters during Thag'zul's design process.
However, in this month's YMTC it seems that people have been reading at least some of the thread, seeing as we had a very back-and-forth race on the mana cost. (Shameless plug: Go to Custom Card Contests & Games to see how YMTC is doing - there's always a thread stickied near the top!)
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For next month's YMTC (May), we'll be designing a green enchantment; YMTC hasn't touched that color or card type for a while now. Participation is encouraged for everyone - you can join us by going to the Custom Card Contests & Games subforum, where you'll find the current YMTC thread stickied near the top. These cards are designed entirely through your votes, so make your voice heard!
Here's how we made Thag'zul:
At the beginning of each end step, you may transform Thag'zul. if you do, put X loyalty counters on it where X is the total damage dealt to opponents this turn.
[-X]: Creatures you control get +X/+0 until end of turn.
[-9]: Destroy all lands you don't control.
I really do not like this card, mostly from a vorthos perspective. It makes very little sense that a walker would have his spark ignite more than once. Yeah, we've already got some strange flavor things going on with Koth and Venser, but at least they're both two different cards, while this is a flavor paradox all rolled into one. The flavor disconnect continues with the fact you can ignite his spark any time you feel like.
Even from a design perspective this doesn't really work for me. Do I really want to trade a 4/4 firebreather for a planeswalker if it can't gain loyalty? In order for the walker side to be good you have to deal a ton of damage in the same turn, but if you can do that why not just swing again next turn with your big guy? Destroying all lands is fine and all, but if you have to connect with your big guy in order to do it, do you really need to destroy all lands? Devastating Force is supposed to clear the way for my titan; if I have to sacrifice my titan to cast it, what's the point? The other two abilities are a little better, since the 3/3 fight token at least offers a bit of utility, but the underwhelming ultimate makes me like this card a whole lot less.
And on top of it all, my art didn't win! what a shame...
I don't think this card is terrible, but I don't really like it either. With so many nobs to tweak on a planeswalker, it's hard to design it by vote. Ah well, there's always next month.
This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move."
Comic Book Set
Archester: Frontier of Steam (A steampunk set!)
A Good Place to Start Designing
I see him as functional right now. Ideally, he would be transformable w/o tricks, but I can see situations where all of his abilities would be effective. Don't know if I would play him as my commander in EDH though seeing as how he's a lightning rod.
I really never considered him for duels; if you're going to be dealing a ton of damage to the enemy player, why not just finish him off with your creature instead of bothering with the transform. Maybe if he could transform back with Haste or something to "protect" him during your enemies turns. That kind of calls to mind phasing, which could be kind of cool, but he's still vulnerable as a PW who has to endure a turn of enemy attacks before his abilities can be used--and whoops, I just got rid of one of my biggest creatures that would have protected him.
Ideally more polishing would have been good, focusing on in game scenarios involving what transforming him does to your board position, but it looked like people were just ready to move on in the thread.
I̟̥͍̠ͅn̩͉̣͍̬͚ͅ ̬̬͖t̯̹̞̺͖͓̯̤h̘͍̬e͙̯͈̖̼̮ ̭̬f̺̲̲̪i͙͉̟̩̰r̪̝͚͈̝̥͍̝̲s̼̻͇̘̳͔ͅt̲̺̳̗̜̪̙ ̳̺̥̻͚̗ͅm̜̜̟̰͈͓͎͇o̝̖̮̝͇m̯̻̞̼̫̗͓̤e̩̯̬̮̩n͎̱̪̲̹͖t͇̖s̰̮ͅ,̤̲͙̻̭̻̯̹̰ ̖t̫̙̺̯͖͚̯ͅh͙̯̦̳̗̰̟e͖̪͉̼̯ ̪͕g̞̣͔a̗̦t̬̬͓͙̫̖̭̻e̩̻̯ ̜̖̦̖̤̭͙̬t̞̹̥̪͎͉ͅo͕͚͍͇̲͇͓̺ ̭̬͙͈̣̻t͈͍͙͓̫̖͙̩h̪̬̖̙e̗͈ ̗̬̟̞̺̤͉̯ͅa̦̯͚̙̜̮f͉͙̲̣̞̼t̪̤̞̣͚e̲͉̳̥r͇̪̙͚͓l̥̞̞͎̹̯̹ͅi͓̬f̮̥̬̞͈ͅe͎ ̟̩̤̳̠̯̩̯o̮̘̲p̟͚̣̞͉͓e͍̩̣n͔̼͕͚̜e̬̱d̼̘͎̖̹͍̮̠,͖̺̭̱̮ ̣̲͖̬̪̭̥a̪͚n̟̲̝̤̤̞̗d̘̱̗͇̮͕̳͕͔ ͖̞͉͎t̹̙͎h̰̱͉̗e̪̞̱̝̹̩ͅ ̠̱̩̭̦p̯̙e͓o̳͚̰̯̺̱̰͔̘p̬͎̱̣̼̩͇l̗̟̖͚̠e̱͉͔̱̦̬̟̙ ̖͚̪͔̼̦w̺̖̤̱e͖̗̻̦͓̖̘̜r̭̥e͔̹̫̱͕̦̰͕ ̗͔̠p̠̗͍͍̱̳̠r̰͔͎̰o͉̥͓̰͚̥s̟͚̹̱͔̣t͉̙̳̖͖̪̮r̥̘̥͙̹a͉̟̫̟̳̠̟̭t͈̜̰͈͎e̞̣̭̲̬ ͚̗̯̟͙i͍͖̰̘̦͖͉ṇ̮̻̯̦̲̩͍ ̦̮͚̫̤t͉͖̫͕ͅͅh͙̮̻̘̣̮̼e͕̺ ͙l͕̠͎̰̥i̲͓͉̲g̫̳̟͈͇̖h̠̦̖t͓̯͎̗ ̳̪̘̟̙̩̦o̫̲f̙͔̰̙̠ ̹̪̗͇̯t͖̼̼͉͖̬h̹͇̩e͚̖̺̤͉̹͕̪ ͚͓̭̝̺G͎̗̯̩o̫̯̮̟̮̳̘d̜̲͙̠-̩̳̯̲̗̜P̹̘̥͉̝h͍͈̗̖̝ͅa͍̗̮̼̗r̜̖͇̙̺a̭̺͔̞̳͈o̪̣͓̯̬͙̯̰̗h̖̦͈̥̯͔.͇̣̙̝
Got to agree with this.
Also just got a great idea for it....now.
That said, this was a really hard design to do by polls. Well done Piar and the rest of those involved for your work.
The Simic: we have glow-in-the-dark milk and self replicating cookies.
CB Black Edrazi BC
UW Steelshaper Delver WU
BGR Loam Pox RGB
Standard
BGR Cutthroat Aristocrats RGB
I dunno, not a fan of this one.
BBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBB
Highest DCI Limited Rating: 2022
(-) The resulting PW is not really great as well. A minus only PW is not something I will aspire to flip into.
(+) Defining the number of starting loyalty counters is what I find interesting in this design. Perhaps this can be done in normal PW, but current templates does not allow that.
If you're using him to blow up lands, it's an Impending Disaster for FIVE mana that they can attack, essentially.
If I'd been designing this card, he'd get loyalty counters the same way War Elemental gets +1/+1 counters when he's a creature, and transform on your upkeep. That way you could get a hefty amount of loyalty. His loyalty abilities are really expensive and you need a lot of counters to make him worth it.
Another idea is to change the -X ability to " If Thag'zul is still in play, transform him. Then, creatures you control get +X/+0 until end of turn." So that you could keep some counters on him and flip him back to net some counters.
I love the art on this card though! Planebreaker indeed, he's huge!
This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move."
Comic Book Set
Archester: Frontier of Steam (A steampunk set!)
A Good Place to Start Designing
Can you post a link? From what I can tell in this thread and the home page, Thag'zul is finished.
Thagzul is finished, but each month there'll be a new card. You can always find the latest poll by clicking the "Custom Card Contests and Games" sub form link above this thread, then scrolling until you see the YMTC label (which will always be towards the top.)
Here is the link to the current poll.
This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move."
Comic Book Set
Archester: Frontier of Steam (A steampunk set!)
A Good Place to Start Designing
Edit: This was a real dumb comment. I had EDH on my mind like I always do. Still, OP imo.
That ability is absurd.
Now as a flavor junky... (will let others tweak this for playability) In theme of the spark, he should transform if he would die or be exiled (return to battlefield transformed, I guess - it works for Loyal Cathar). Maybe make his toughness 1 or 2 to encourage that possibility (then you could burn him yourself to flip 'em). Plus, I think it may clear up rules questions like... can an opponent Doom Blade (or whatever) the Ogre right before he transforms? Also, the rule:
"Damage marked on a double-faced permanent will stay marked on that permanent after it transforms."
Say, Thag is dealt 2 damage by a defender earlier in the turn (or something). When he flips, would you then put X-2 loyalty counters on him?
Also, can someday we see this treatment be done to famous figures? Teferi? Jaya? Urza?
ummm you mean Garruk's plus ability? (5cmc one) with a tacked on fight mechanic? -3 to bolt a creature or get a 3/3 is pretty terrible if you some how attacked them and got through with your 4/4 firebreather. And he survived until your next turn as a planeswalker.
Another thing, wouldn't you be able to have 2 copies of this guy in play at the same time? 1 flipped, 1 non-flip? That seems very strange.
false, he can transform on any end step
The thing is, many people pointed this out when it came time to vote, and this version still won. Almost everything that was brought up against this card was brought up during the polls, yet ended up not making a difference. Either there's a vocal minority, or people just don't read the thread before voting.
This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move."
Comic Book Set
Archester: Frontier of Steam (A steampunk set!)
A Good Place to Start Designing
As the lead for YMTC, I try to give everyone plenty of time to read the poll options and the thread to make an informed decision. I hope that our community makes informed decisions, but it did seem to fall short for this card's design as you pointed out. I wouldn't be surprised if people were lazy voters during Thag'zul's design process.
However, in this month's YMTC it seems that people have been reading at least some of the thread, seeing as we had a very back-and-forth race on the mana cost. (Shameless plug: Go to Custom Card Contests & Games to see how YMTC is doing - there's always a thread stickied near the top!)