After reading Belgareth's comments on this thread, I've put my "views" on my card in spoilers so that I don't influence other judges. Of course, after judging you are welcome to see my thoughts...
Since it looks like I'm being docked points already for time counters:-/ , I thought I'd explain a bit. I meant to use time counters because that makes the most sense in a flavor setting. And yes, the whole clockspinning idea was the idea of the card. What good is a take another turn card if you can't somehow "break" it to help you out?
However - if you make a deck full of things like clockspinning and other such time-related cards, you've got so many things going on that won't win you the game, that extra turn is not all that likely to win it for you. Couple that with the idea that the land is legendary (so your opponent could wait until you have 3 or 4 counters on it and drop his/her own and you've wasted all that energy), etc. I think my card might be more balanced than some appear to be giving it credit for.
One final note: Yes, the land may be too powerful in a deck that can constantly untap lands....but a deck that can constantly untap lands is already powerful, it's going to combo out, and that extra turn doesn't really matter in the long run.
Having more turns is the second most powerful thing in the game apart from winning the game. Building a deck around 'timespirals' it is very viable and easy. And if you don't agree, check up how many winning conditions the average control deck has. 1.. maybe a very alternative second one?
Other than that, learn to read, Belgareth posted above his judgings: Judgings in progress , please do not comment untill this is removed. Liable to change.
If I where you I'd be checking if your aiming for the right target with your gun in a few days before shooting an innocent man ;-), that's what I'm up to
Couldn't agree with you more - and my comments weren't necessarily directed towards Belgareth's judgings, but rather how I feared my card might be taken by all the judges! I have no problems with Belgareth's comments so far, but as you pointed out, I can't really make any comments on any judgings until Belgareth is complete. Belgareth simply was the first one to make a comment like I thought someone might, and I wanted to try and explain my reasoning a bit...that's all. Win or lose at this point doesn't matter so much, it's my first time in the finals after all...I can't complain!
I agree that building a deck around time counters, etc is relatively easy to do, but even with the current emphasis on time counters, (clockspinning and friends, etc), would such a deck be able to beat Dragonstorm by combo-ing out first? Doubtful. Would it be able to combo out before any one of the numerous aggro decks stomped it? Maybe, but again, doubtful. Especially since if you are spending all that time adding counters, untapping lands, etc etc, you won't have any mana/creatures for defense or destruction spells. Oh, and if they drop avalanche riders or some other land destruction spell, you've wasted all your time.
That's all I wanted to point out. Yes, it's powerful (extra turns always are). However, with all the current available drawbacks and such, I'm not sure it's so unbalanced. Plus, if you are playing a combo deck, you're more likely to play a combo that wins right away rather than combo out for an extra turn or two anyhow. I was trying to make a card that decks could use for the occassional extra turn, without having to spend a lot of extra time/energy making it happen. It wasn't easy trying to balance such a thing, though perhaps my idea of balanced isn't in line with others
Treasures of the Vault is indestructible.
:2mana:, remove Treasures of the Vault from the game: Take an extra turn after this one. Target opponent gains control of Treasures of the Vault at end of turn.
Does this not state that?
Edit: ignore me, it doesn't say it comes back into play
Poor Lesurgo, he choose a Grand Prix over the FCC *shakes head*
I'm actually surprised no one thought of a white card that punishes your opponent for doing too much on his/her turn by giving you an extra turn to balance out the "time" taken.
"Sufficiently advanced experience is indistinguishable from clairvoyance." -Carsten
"Ah those eyes, those horrible creepy eyes!" -Chaosof99
DCI Level 3 Judge & TO "I do not consider myself a hero. I know only what the Vec teach:
justice must always be served and corruption must always be opposed."
Go read! I am one of the three authors of Cranial Insertion.
But seriously, if you can't remember "Woapalanne", just call me Eli.
I'm actually surprised no one thought of a white card that punishes your opponent for doing too much on his/her turn by giving you an extra turn to balance out the "time" taken.
This was the other card I did for the round but I felt it was too plain.
Poor Lesurgo, he choose a Grand Prix over the FCC *shakes head*
I thought that I'd have until the end of today looking at how the third round was going, but the next round hadn't been put up yet so I couldn't say for sure. Such is life I suppose, but I certainly didn't miss it on purpose, nor did I miss it because I was finishing my card.
I apologize to anybody who feels like they were cheated out of a potential elusive fourth round slot because I failed to show. If I could've, I would've.
I've been really busy in the dreaded plane known as "Real Life." I will have my judgings up either later tonight or sometime early tomorrow. I'm planning on the former.
And yes, no incantatrix for you. Or anyone. That class makes puppies cry. Mostly because they are the former Big Bads who have been Baleful Polymorphed into said puppies. By you. Because you're an incantatrix.
Quote from Yukora »
This is Deraxas we're talking about.
Remember, the girl that just killed an aspect of herself before literally consuming her?
Yeah, I don't see her handling a pissing match in any way other than a duel.
Quote from RedDwarfian »
Yes mistress...
Quote from About epic-level D&D »
There are only so many epic, psuedonatural barbarian/blackguard half-dragon akutenshai vampire balor paragons they can throw at you, right?
Quote from Concerning breeding habits of humans in fantasy games »
I suppose it's true. Though the logistics implied in a human/Great Wyrm Prismatic Dragon pairing makes me shudder.
...Something tells me that even should all arcane casters in the world unite, that the Grease spell would NOT be sufficient.
Nope, not punished for giving turns.
Punished for not balancing a turn right.
Too wotc a turn is currently worth 6 mana, so work on the premise that your card should cost 6 mana and any less than this requires a drawback.
Final fortune is no longer printed due to scepter but it provides a good example.
At 2 mana for an extra turn , you lose next turn period ( this was before platinum angel and her spawn).
So at 3 mana you kinda need to have something dramatic as drawback.
However you also need to ensure the drawback when giving your opponent the extra turn isn't so great that they never get that turn
Ah, but for the record, my "extra turn" requires 5 mana, with the drawback of the being legendary. (plus it's spread over 5 turns...not a "draw" miracle type of card). Even so, it appears the consensus is that my card is vastly overpowered...
I'm already out of this matchup, so there's no sense in me doing this just to get back at you. I was just scanning the entries. I'da done it regardless of who it was.
M_E made that a bonus point. Judges should score accordingly.
Thanks all for the judgings (and those yet to come too of course). I won't be "complaining" any more about my card, I've decided that just because I think it's fair, pretty much everyone else thinks it is overpowered or broken...and so I'll re-evaluate my definition of fair . Heck, I had it using generic counters at first, and changed it to time counters purposely (seemed more flavorful, seemed like there was combo potential)... I like cards to build around, but this one maybe took it a little too far! Just curious: HAD I said to tap and remove from the game as part of the cost for the extra turn, would it still be broken? Finding the balance between playable and not broken is quite difficult when you are talking about extra turns!
Deducted 1/2 a point to appease the pedantic 1, though I will be watching his entries very closely in future as I do think that is childish and while it could have been pointed out by another judge or a finalist (of which your neither), I agree with hatch it was sour grapes.
Personally, I don't relish the idea of a card losing points soley because of a technicality, but it happens fairly regularly so I don't see why this case should be any different.
And though Alacar's delivery was less-than-tactful, I don't think it's quite fair to chalk it up to sour grapes, especially considering at no point did Alacar blame his loss on hatch. And honestly, even if you have a point about his motivation, is singling him out from now on the appropriate response? Should he be held to a higher degree of scrunity for correctly pointing out a judging error simply because you didn't care for the way he went about it?
And on a personal note I’d like to add that I find that “mana symbols” bonus condition extremely stupid I mean we all create very, very nice renders (all with symbols, some even create promo renders) so I don’t quite get the point in being penalized for forgetting to place the correct forum tags. (WUBRG – see? All too easy.)
I'd agree to a point, but that might be because I simply am not aware of the reasons Moss_Elemental and Stax decided to do it that way in the first place. Maybe, as is the case for renders, it's because it makes the contest look nicer. Maybe it makes it easier to read for the judges, etc. Who knows?
Just curious: HAD I said to tap and remove from the game as part of the cost for the extra turn, would it still be broken? Finding the balance between playable and not broken is quite difficult when you are talking about extra turns!
I imagine that would have gone a long way, yes. The reusability is what really makes the card killer. Using counter manipulators to accelerate into a single extra turn is good; potentially getting inifinite turns (though difficult, it's possible) is a problem.
And, I agree, this was a very difficult round to balance (but frankly, I think final rounds should be especially challenging, so kudos to Moss!), especially without access to blue.
My biggest problem is the obvious broken interaction with Form, and Ideal. I think the Cumulative Upkeep is really great, but maybe raising it to GG would further prevent that interaction.
That was pretty much the same thought process I went through. This is really powerful with Form, but really if Ideal gets it into play it's pretty much game over already, and there's no good way to cheat Form out in Standard. So ultimately I felt it was safe. But still, with some acceleration/fast red mana it could be quite a scary combo.
I also struggled with the mana and upkeep costs. Ultimately I felt making the player commit too heavily to green seriously hosed the card's potential because there's a lot less you can do with the card in monogreen.
Just to doubley clarify, this is in no way a complaint. I just thought it would interesting to discuss and I always find it interesting when a judge thinks about my designs the same way I do.
I'd agree to a point, but that might be because I simply am not aware of the reasons Moss_Elemental and Stax decided to do it that way in the first place. Maybe, as is the case for renders, it's because it makes the contest look nicer. Maybe it makes it easier to read for the judges, etc. Who knows?
Mods, please enlighten us.
Oh, and don’t get me wrong, I feel perfectly right losing points this way, after all it’s my fault; though I can very well imagine next month without this condition.
I had nothing to do with that as a bonus. It was there before I took over. As for why, I don't know. I'll ask Stax.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing."
I also struggled with the mana and upkeep costs. Ultimately I felt making the player commit too heavily to green seriously hosed the card's potential because there's a lot less you can do with the card in monogreen.
I agree. I sorta followed Absolutionis' card guidelines to a point, giving it a Nine. And I just didn't feel that because of the ability of broken combo, I docked a point. That was just my thinking.
Kraj as always I enjoy your point of view however since I'm privy to the pm's I received and a fair few comments made about hatch in the past I do think it was done out of malice not a sense of justice.
Kind of you to say, and a fair point then. If I may be so bold one last time... I know Alacar fairly well as compared to most folk I know on MtGS, and I'm fairly confident that any negative behavior you may have observed from him was based in the fact that he tends to go a bit over the top when he's upset. In a calm and rational state, however, I would bet money that he would not intentionally behave in a malcious way.
Quote from Belgareth »
On this note , I am so glad to see grimclaw return to next month's FCC as he was the first of 2 people to ever achieve a 25 from me
I'm happy to hear that news as well! I believe he was the first to score a 25 from me as well.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
The Golden Rule of forums: If you're going to be rude, be right. If you might be wrong, be polite.
I didn't post that out of spit against hatch, I posted it because, well, it's the final round, folks. Don't be stingy. I do admit, I got cranky when I lost round 3. But since I've lost and all's done and done, I wanna make sure the record's straight.
I'd just like to say that I think Hyram was the only judge that got my card right. My card is not broken if you really think about it, and it seems like many of the judges didn't. I'm not trying to be super critical, but I thought about my card a lot, and I know that it is not broken like most of you said. I actually did not know about Second Chance, so I deserved points off for that. But I did not deserve points off for it being broken. If you still think it is broken, please PM me and I would be happy to explain my argument to you.
As a side note, I just want to say that I would prefer that judges take longer on their judgings if they say more about the card. For most of them so far, at least for my card, there is about a sentence for each section, and the judges don't really adequately explain their reasoning. I personally feel jipped when I have no idea why a judge rated my card like they did. Anyway, that's my little rant. I do appreciate the judges, don't get me wrong. You guys all do an awesome job. I was just trying to provide some constrictive criticism.
38 min!!!!
:symg::symu::symb:BUG Troll Aggro:symb::symu::symg:
:symg::symw::symb:Junk Aristocrats:symb::symw::symg:
Modern
:symu::symw::symr:American Illuminatus Control:symr::symw::symu:
:xmana::xmana::xmana:Robots:xmana::xmana::xmana:
Vintage
:symg::symu::symr:RUG Gush:symr::symu::symg:
EDH
:symw::symg::symr:Rith, the Token Maker:symr::symg::symw:
:symg::symb:Jarad, Golgari Aristocrat:symb::symg:
don't ever click here or here
Thanks so much! We'll see what the judges think. Yet another card from me that has a lot of subtle things going on...
A big ol' "I agree!", fan_of_reds. This was a very challenging round requirement and spawned a lot of creativity. Great job and good luck everyone!
Current New Favorite Person™: Mallory Archer
She knows why.
Anyway, good luck to everyone involved. There are a lot of really cool cards involved this round, and the winner is bound to be good.
Magic Coffeehouse pwns.
CENT SPORTS!!
http://www.centsports.com/?opcode=94009
If you like sports or sports betting and you want a chance to win free money, you will love it.
However - if you make a deck full of things like clockspinning and other such time-related cards, you've got so many things going on that won't win you the game, that extra turn is not all that likely to win it for you. Couple that with the idea that the land is legendary (so your opponent could wait until you have 3 or 4 counters on it and drop his/her own and you've wasted all that energy), etc. I think my card might be more balanced than some appear to be giving it credit for.
One final note: Yes, the land may be too powerful in a deck that can constantly untap lands....but a deck that can constantly untap lands is already powerful, it's going to combo out, and that extra turn doesn't really matter in the long run.
Couldn't agree with you more - and my comments weren't necessarily directed towards Belgareth's judgings, but rather how I feared my card might be taken by all the judges! I have no problems with Belgareth's comments so far, but as you pointed out, I can't really make any comments on any judgings until Belgareth is complete. Belgareth simply was the first one to make a comment like I thought someone might, and I wanted to try and explain my reasoning a bit...that's all. Win or lose at this point doesn't matter so much, it's my first time in the finals after all...I can't complain!
I agree that building a deck around time counters, etc is relatively easy to do, but even with the current emphasis on time counters, (clockspinning and friends, etc), would such a deck be able to beat Dragonstorm by combo-ing out first? Doubtful. Would it be able to combo out before any one of the numerous aggro decks stomped it? Maybe, but again, doubtful. Especially since if you are spending all that time adding counters, untapping lands, etc etc, you won't have any mana/creatures for defense or destruction spells. Oh, and if they drop avalanche riders or some other land destruction spell, you've wasted all your time.
That's all I wanted to point out. Yes, it's powerful (extra turns always are). However, with all the current available drawbacks and such, I'm not sure it's so unbalanced. Plus, if you are playing a combo deck, you're more likely to play a combo that wins right away rather than combo out for an extra turn or two anyhow. I was trying to make a card that decks could use for the occassional extra turn, without having to spend a lot of extra time/energy making it happen. It wasn't easy trying to balance such a thing, though perhaps my idea of balanced isn't in line with others
I swear, these past two months have been fun and easy the first three rounds, but then the final round tears me a new one...
:2mana:, remove Treasures of the Vault from the game: Take an extra turn after this one. Target opponent gains control of Treasures of the Vault at end of turn.
Does this not state that?
Edit: ignore me, it doesn't say it comes back into play
Doctor: Only if God hates you.
I'm actually surprised no one thought of a white card that punishes your opponent for doing too much on his/her turn by giving you an extra turn to balance out the "time" taken.
"Sufficiently advanced experience is indistinguishable from clairvoyance." -Carsten
"Ah those eyes, those horrible creepy eyes!" -Chaosof99
DCI Level 3 Judge & TO
"I do not consider myself a hero. I know only what the Vec teach:
justice must always be served and corruption must always be opposed."
Go read! I am one of the three authors of Cranial Insertion.
But seriously, if you can't remember "Woapalanne", just call me Eli.
This was the other card I did for the round but I felt it was too plain.
Current New Favorite Person™: Mallory Archer
She knows why.
I thought that I'd have until the end of today looking at how the third round was going, but the next round hadn't been put up yet so I couldn't say for sure. Such is life I suppose, but I certainly didn't miss it on purpose, nor did I miss it because I was finishing my card.
I apologize to anybody who feels like they were cheated out of a potential elusive fourth round slot because I failed to show. If I could've, I would've.
My Custom Cards
My Twitch - Languishing in neglect under the vain hope of starting again
My Livestream Archive
Sorry.
"I am in the arcane, and the arcane is in me."
Official Matron Mother of Clan Planar Chaos
Awesome Avatar and signature by DarkNightCavalier
Deraxas, Dark Maiden of Shimia,, still oddly obsessed with a mindmage.
Ah, but for the record, my "extra turn" requires 5 mana, with the drawback of the being legendary. (plus it's spread over 5 turns...not a "draw" miracle type of card). Even so, it appears the consensus is that my card is vastly overpowered...
hatch's submission
See anything? If you don't, then you're not looking hard enough.
If you gave 5/5 on the bonus, then reconsider!
Like freeform roleplaying? Try Darkness Befalls Us
Ryttare Kelasin Luna Orelinalei
M_E made that a bonus point. Judges should score accordingly.
Like freeform roleplaying? Try Darkness Befalls Us
Ryttare Kelasin Luna Orelinalei
Just curious: HAD I said to tap and remove from the game as part of the cost for the extra turn, would it still be broken? Finding the balance between playable and not broken is quite difficult when you are talking about extra turns!
Personally, I don't relish the idea of a card losing points soley because of a technicality, but it happens fairly regularly so I don't see why this case should be any different.
And though Alacar's delivery was less-than-tactful, I don't think it's quite fair to chalk it up to sour grapes, especially considering at no point did Alacar blame his loss on hatch. And honestly, even if you have a point about his motivation, is singling him out from now on the appropriate response? Should he be held to a higher degree of scrunity for correctly pointing out a judging error simply because you didn't care for the way he went about it?
I'd agree to a point, but that might be because I simply am not aware of the reasons Moss_Elemental and Stax decided to do it that way in the first place. Maybe, as is the case for renders, it's because it makes the contest look nicer. Maybe it makes it easier to read for the judges, etc. Who knows?
I imagine that would have gone a long way, yes. The reusability is what really makes the card killer. Using counter manipulators to accelerate into a single extra turn is good; potentially getting inifinite turns (though difficult, it's possible) is a problem.
And, I agree, this was a very difficult round to balance (but frankly, I think final rounds should be especially challenging, so kudos to Moss!), especially without access to blue.
That was pretty much the same thought process I went through.
I also struggled with the mana and upkeep costs. Ultimately I felt making the player commit too heavily to green seriously hosed the card's potential because there's a lot less you can do with the card in monogreen.
Just to doubley clarify, this is in no way a complaint. I just thought it would interesting to discuss and I always find it interesting when a judge thinks about my designs the same way I do.
Current New Favorite Person™: Mallory Archer
She knows why.
I had nothing to do with that as a bonus. It was there before I took over. As for why, I don't know. I'll ask Stax.
I agree. I sorta followed Absolutionis' card guidelines to a point, giving it a Nine. And I just didn't feel that because of the ability of broken combo, I docked a point. That was just my thinking.
Kind of you to say, and a fair point then. If I may be so bold one last time... I know Alacar fairly well as compared to most folk I know on MtGS, and I'm fairly confident that any negative behavior you may have observed from him was based in the fact that he tends to go a bit over the top when he's upset. In a calm and rational state, however, I would bet money that he would not intentionally behave in a malcious way.
I'm happy to hear that news as well! I believe he was the first to score a 25 from me as well.
Current New Favorite Person™: Mallory Archer
She knows why.
M_E has the final word on all of this of course.
Like freeform roleplaying? Try Darkness Befalls Us
Ryttare Kelasin Luna Orelinalei
As a side note, I just want to say that I would prefer that judges take longer on their judgings if they say more about the card. For most of them so far, at least for my card, there is about a sentence for each section, and the judges don't really adequately explain their reasoning. I personally feel jipped when I have no idea why a judge rated my card like they did. Anyway, that's my little rant. I do appreciate the judges, don't get me wrong. You guys all do an awesome job. I was just trying to provide some constrictive criticism.
Magic Coffeehouse pwns.
CENT SPORTS!!
http://www.centsports.com/?opcode=94009
If you like sports or sports betting and you want a chance to win free money, you will love it.