Summer Rain1UU
Enchantment Creature - Elemental
Flying
Dash 2RR(You may cast this spell for its dash cost. If you do, it gains haste, and it's returned from the battlefield to its owner's hand at the beginning of the next end step.)
Cascade (When you cast this spell, exile cards from the top of your library until you exile a nonland card that costs less. You may cast it without paying its mana cost. Put the exiled cards on the bottom of your library in a random order.)
2/2
Ver. 2
Summer Rain1UUR
Tribal Enchantment - Elemental
Cascade (When you cast this spell, exile cards from the top of your library until you exile a nonland card that costs less. You may cast it without paying its mana cost. Put the exiled cards on the bottom of your library in a random order.)
Dash 1URR(You may cast this spell for its dash cost. If you do, it gains haste, and it's returned from the battlefield to its owner's hand at the beginning of the next end step.)
If Summer Rain's dash cost was paid, it is a 2/1 creature in addition to its other types.
Creatures you control have flying.
Ver. 3
Summer Rain3UUR
Tribal Enchantment - Elemental
Cascade (When you cast this spell, exile cards from the top of your library until you exile a nonland card that costs less. You may cast it without paying its mana cost. Put the exiled cards on the bottom of your library in a random order.)
Dash 3URR(You may cast this spell for its dash cost. If you do, it gains haste, and it's returned from the battlefield to its owner's hand at the beginning of the next end step.)
If Summer Rain's dash cost was paid, it is a 2/1 creature in addition to its other types.
Creatures you control get +1/+0 and have flying.
Summer Rain3UUUR
Tribal Enchantment - Elemental
Cascade (When you cast this spell, exile cards from the top of your library until you exile a nonland card that costs less. You may cast it without paying its mana cost. Put the exiled cards on the bottom of your library in a random order.)
Dash 3URRR(You may cast this spell for its dash cost. If you do, it gains haste, and it's returned from the battlefield to its owner's hand at the beginning of the next end step.)
If Summer Rain's dash cost was paid, it is a 2/1 creature in addition to its other types.
Creatures you control get +1/+0 and have flying.
If you evened it out by upping the casting cost to 4, sounds good.
If you even it out by lowering the dash cost to 3 and make this just a strictly better shardless agent that grabs rhinos and other costless cards every single turn, probably not balanced.
I agree that it has the potential to cause confusion. The repeatable cascade may also be a balance issue, but cascade is arguable better at 3 MV that 4 because of the ability to determine what "random" card it will hit by only having one 2 mv spell in your deck, so I'd recommend increasing the base cost instead of decreasing the dash.
Also, having an efficient flying threat threat that can be cast in a mono-red deck is probably out of color pie. How about:
"CARDNAME has flying as long as it does not have haste."
Red has plenty of flying threats, Phoenix's are probably the best example (and can be repeatedly played).
Apart from that i do agree about the costs, though 4 is not a bad cost as it can guarantee a Chromatic Lantern if thats the only 3 or less card you have
Red has plenty of flying threats, Phoenix's are probably the best example (and can be repeatedly played).
Apart from that i do agree about the costs, though 4 is not a bad cost as it can guarantee a Chromatic Lantern if thats the only 3 or less card you have
~Funk Pirate
Red does have the occasional flyer because dragons and phoenixes are thematically red, but they are usually either not efficiently costed. This one being a 2/2 flyer with cascade is very aggressively costed at 3 and still offers a lot of card advantage being able to dash at 4.
The casing cost confusion aside, the dash cost should probably be actually higher due to the reapeatable scry ability.
It's a lot more interesting. However, the ability "creatures you control have flying" is already a 4 MV card. Add on cascade and the dash shenanigans and it has to bump up in cost.
It's a lot more interesting. However, the ability "creatures you control have flying" is already a 4 MV card. Add on cascade and the dash shenanigans and it has to bump up in cost.
How about bumping up to six?
EDIT: And if so, could I bump its power to 3 to be more evocative of bolt?
It's a lot more interesting. However, the ability "creatures you control have flying" is already a 4 MV card. Add on cascade and the dash shenanigans and it has to bump up in cost.
How about bumping up to six?
EDIT: And if so, could I bump its power to 3 to be more evocative of bolt?
I think you can make the card a 2/1 with flying if dashed.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
pucatrade
big receipts
alpha mox emerald
beta time walk
4 goyfs received
3 liliana of the veil
4 karn liberated
3 force of will
4 grove of the burnwillows
snapcaster mage
3 horizon canopy
2 full art damnation
It's a lot more interesting. However, the ability "creatures you control have flying" is already a 4 MV card. Add on cascade and the dash shenanigans and it has to bump up in cost.
How about bumping up to six?
EDIT: And if so, could I bump its power to 3 to be more evocative of bolt?
I think you can make the card a 2/1 with flying if dashed.
It's a lot more interesting. However, the ability "creatures you control have flying" is already a 4 MV card. Add on cascade and the dash shenanigans and it has to bump up in cost.
How about bumping up to six?
EDIT: And if so, could I bump its power to 3 to be more evocative of bolt?
I think you can make the card a 2/1 with flying if dashed.
So keep it as is.
No, I would remove the 'creatures you control have flying'
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
pucatrade
big receipts
alpha mox emerald
beta time walk
4 goyfs received
3 liliana of the veil
4 karn liberated
3 force of will
4 grove of the burnwillows
snapcaster mage
3 horizon canopy
2 full art damnation
It's a lot more interesting. However, the ability "creatures you control have flying" is already a 4 MV card. Add on cascade and the dash shenanigans and it has to bump up in cost.
How about bumping up to six?
EDIT: And if so, could I bump its power to 3 to be more evocative of bolt?
I think you can make the card a 2/1 with flying if dashed.
So keep it as is.
No, I would remove the 'creatures you control have flying'
Oh, I get you, so it's just a cascade for 3 if cast regularly.
A six mana cascading bolt that also makes your team fly sounds reasonable. Bumped up to six, if you go color intensive you might be able to justify the archetype ability taking away flying from the opponent.
Imagine if this cost 1 and dash for 3. lololololol
Everyone really just wants to be able to cascade their 0 drop, trust me.
Even like UR—or (towards the aforementioned). It would still match flavor since summer rain can be incredibly chaotic and aggressive. I think though, this wants a rebrand name. Torrent Elemental is already taken, but I wonder if one could flex Torrential Elemental anyways.
Imagine if this cost 1 and dash for 3. lololololol
Everyone really just wants to be able to cascade their 0 drop, trust me.
Even like UR—or (towards the aforementioned). It would still match flavor since summer rain can be incredibly chaotic and aggressive. I think though, this wants a rebrand name. Torrent Elemental is already taken, but I wonder if one could flex Torrential Elemental anyways.
Cost it hybrid and make the dash multicolor.
1. Letting people cascade 0-cost cards is just broken. Keeping the cost of cascade cards high is just good balance. This clearly isn’t a card designed to create a huge splash in standard.
2. You are knowingly recommending that a card be given a confusing name that is very close to another name, even though that name makes no sense when you hardcast this spell and it isn’t a creature.
3. The entire point of this card is that it should be more blue than red when hardcast and more red than blue when dashed. Hybrid costs kind of defeat the entire purpose (and giving mono-red an enchantment that gives all of your creatures flying is out of color pie).
If you are done giving broken, confusing, color-twisted advice the defeats the entire purpose of the main card, you can leave.
Well, that's what Urza's Saga does, on a time-lapse (for free).
I think it's on par there. This will exclusively cascade 0 cost and nothing else.
Otherwise, if this cost UR, a chance factor keys in that it can pick up 1 cost spells instead of just the 0. For what it does, there's almost more incentive to play it then. It almost becomes even more OP that way, by extending the reachable card pool into 1 cost spells also.
After this, we just get into basic cascade spells that already exist.
Well, that's what Urza's Saga does, on a time-lapse (for free).
I think it's on par there. This will exclusively cascade 0 cost and nothing else.
Otherwise, if this cost UR, a chance factor keys in that it can pick up 1 cost spells instead of just the 0. For what it does, there's almost more incentive to play it then. It almost becomes even more OP that way, by extending the reachable card pool into 1 cost spells also.
After this, we just get into basic cascade spells that already exist.
I don't like this idea for my card. It completely flies in the face of the direction I took it, as evidenced by its documented development line. No thank you.
The only tweak I would make from your version #3 is change the static to "Other creatures you control ..."
Being able to pump itself to a 3/1 flyer/haste means its very hard for most decks to interact with and stop you from repeatedly cascading. Throes of Chaos requires a resource that can run out to keep cascading, where this is providing its own threat plus the cascade. Making it only blockable by flyers and only removable by instants really narrows what decks can stop the cascade-for-five-and-also-you-take-three loop.
The only tweak I would make from your version #3 is change the static to "Other creatures you control ..."
Being able to pump itself to a 3/1 flyer/haste means its very hard for most decks to interact with and stop you from repeatedly cascading. Throes of Chaos requires a resource that can run out to keep cascading, where this is providing its own threat plus the cascade. Making it only blockable by flyers and only removable by instants really narrows what decks can stop the cascade-for-five-and-also-you-take-three loop.
At the same time though it dies to a breeze and leaves your field in a lurch when it leaves. I'm also not sure what you mean by "most decks", what format or metric do you have in mind with that?
Throes feels like an improper comparison here, it's meant to (possibly) provide you multiple cascades a turn, whereas this is giving you the consistency of a cascade a turn cycle. Looking thru gatherer, the cards that seemed to merit the most consideration for comparison were:
Phoenix, Sphinx, Sculptor, & Engine are all repeatable cascades of a type. Elf, Remnant, Boon, and Outburst cover the cross section of effects Rain provides. So, a card with possible repeat cascade needs to cost 6+ regardless of anything else. Putting that together with a field wide pump and bonus, possibly in the form of a Ball Lightning variant, and I think this was still undercost at the rate I had, so I pushed it up another pip on both costs.
I think what I've learned the most from this exercise is that cascade is a hard mechanic to balance in a vacuum, especially when paired with enablers.
I cited Throes because its the primary self-repeatable Cascade card, which is what your card does with dash. Ingenuity Engine is similar to Throes, but you have to sac an artifact instead of exiling a land card from the graveyard, so you are still spending a card. Phoenix Requires you to have another Cascade card to get it back and Sphinx can be cast, at most, every three turns. I'm assuming you meant Etherium-Horn Sorcerer, not Etherium Sculpter, but there you still have to pay extra mana to set up another usage of cascade, meaning you pay 9 to cascade off a 6 mana spell.
Summer Rain combines the cascade and recursion into the same cost so you can dash it turn over turn with no interruption and not running out of a resource to keep doing it. That ability is strong inherently, without also being able to additionally hit your opponent for three each time you do. Yes, its a weak creature and decks running burn or counterspells can answer it easily, but decks that rely on creature combat for interaction or board wipes/sorcery speed removal cannot interact with the cascade so making it more easily blockable is a reasonable way to reduce the card advantage this is granting.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
Enchantment Creature - Elemental
Flying
Dash 2RR (You may cast this spell for its dash cost. If you do, it gains haste, and it's returned from the battlefield to its owner's hand at the beginning of the next end step.)
Cascade (When you cast this spell, exile cards from the top of your library until you exile a nonland card that costs less. You may cast it without paying its mana cost. Put the exiled cards on the bottom of your library in a random order.)
2/2
Ver. 2
Tribal Enchantment - Elemental
Cascade (When you cast this spell, exile cards from the top of your library until you exile a nonland card that costs less. You may cast it without paying its mana cost. Put the exiled cards on the bottom of your library in a random order.)
Dash 1URR (You may cast this spell for its dash cost. If you do, it gains haste, and it's returned from the battlefield to its owner's hand at the beginning of the next end step.)
If Summer Rain's dash cost was paid, it is a 2/1 creature in addition to its other types.
Creatures you control have flying.
Ver. 3
Tribal Enchantment - Elemental
Cascade (When you cast this spell, exile cards from the top of your library until you exile a nonland card that costs less. You may cast it without paying its mana cost. Put the exiled cards on the bottom of your library in a random order.)
Dash 3URR (You may cast this spell for its dash cost. If you do, it gains haste, and it's returned from the battlefield to its owner's hand at the beginning of the next end step.)
If Summer Rain's dash cost was paid, it is a 2/1 creature in addition to its other types.
Creatures you control get +1/+0 and have flying.
Summer Rain 3UUUR
Tribal Enchantment - Elemental
Cascade (When you cast this spell, exile cards from the top of your library until you exile a nonland card that costs less. You may cast it without paying its mana cost. Put the exiled cards on the bottom of your library in a random order.)
Dash 3URRR (You may cast this spell for its dash cost. If you do, it gains haste, and it's returned from the battlefield to its owner's hand at the beginning of the next end step.)
If Summer Rain's dash cost was paid, it is a 2/1 creature in addition to its other types.
Creatures you control get +1/+0 and have flying.
How about if I evened them out?
If you even it out by lowering the dash cost to 3 and make this just a strictly better shardless agent that grabs rhinos and other costless cards every single turn, probably not balanced.
Also, having an efficient flying threat threat that can be cast in a mono-red deck is probably out of color pie. How about:
"CARDNAME has flying as long as it does not have haste."
Apart from that i do agree about the costs, though 4 is not a bad cost as it can guarantee a Chromatic Lantern if thats the only 3 or less card you have
~Funk Pirate
Red does have the occasional flyer because dragons and phoenixes are thematically red, but they are usually either not efficiently costed. This one being a 2/2 flyer with cascade is very aggressively costed at 3 and still offers a lot of card advantage being able to dash at 4.
The casing cost confusion aside, the dash cost should probably be actually higher due to the reapeatable scry ability.
How about bumping up to six?
EDIT: And if so, could I bump its power to 3 to be more evocative of bolt?
I think you can make the card a 2/1 with flying if dashed.
pucatrade
big receipts
alpha mox emerald
beta time walk
4 goyfs received
3 liliana of the veil
4 karn liberated
3 force of will
4 grove of the burnwillows
snapcaster mage
3 horizon canopy
2 full art damnation
So keep it as is.
No, I would remove the 'creatures you control have flying'
pucatrade
big receipts
alpha mox emerald
beta time walk
4 goyfs received
3 liliana of the veil
4 karn liberated
3 force of will
4 grove of the burnwillows
snapcaster mage
3 horizon canopy
2 full art damnation
Oh, I get you, so it's just a cascade for 3 if cast regularly.
Everyone really just wants to be able to cascade their 0 drop, trust me.
Even like UR—or (towards the aforementioned). It would still match flavor since summer rain can be incredibly chaotic and aggressive. I think though, this wants a rebrand name. Torrent Elemental is already taken, but I wonder if one could flex Torrential Elemental anyways.
Cost it hybrid and make the dash multicolor.
1. Letting people cascade 0-cost cards is just broken. Keeping the cost of cascade cards high is just good balance. This clearly isn’t a card designed to create a huge splash in standard.
2. You are knowingly recommending that a card be given a confusing name that is very close to another name, even though that name makes no sense when you hardcast this spell and it isn’t a creature.
3. The entire point of this card is that it should be more blue than red when hardcast and more red than blue when dashed. Hybrid costs kind of defeat the entire purpose (and giving mono-red an enchantment that gives all of your creatures flying is out of color pie).
If you are done giving broken, confusing, color-twisted advice the defeats the entire purpose of the main card, you can leave.
I think it's on par there. This will exclusively cascade 0 cost and nothing else.
Otherwise, if this cost UR, a chance factor keys in that it can pick up 1 cost spells instead of just the 0. For what it does, there's almost more incentive to play it then. It almost becomes even more OP that way, by extending the reachable card pool into 1 cost spells also.
After this, we just get into basic cascade spells that already exist.
I don't like this idea for my card. It completely flies in the face of the direction I took it, as evidenced by its documented development line. No thank you.
Add an additional cost if necessary, such as it deals 2 damage to you when it enters the battlefield; but that's where the case goes cold.
Being able to pump itself to a 3/1 flyer/haste means its very hard for most decks to interact with and stop you from repeatedly cascading. Throes of Chaos requires a resource that can run out to keep cascading, where this is providing its own threat plus the cascade. Making it only blockable by flyers and only removable by instants really narrows what decks can stop the cascade-for-five-and-also-you-take-three loop.
At the same time though it dies to a breeze and leaves your field in a lurch when it leaves. I'm also not sure what you mean by "most decks", what format or metric do you have in mind with that?
Throes feels like an improper comparison here, it's meant to (possibly) provide you multiple cascades a turn, whereas this is giving you the consistency of a cascade a turn cycle. Looking thru gatherer, the cards that seemed to merit the most consideration for comparison were:
Phoenix, Sphinx, Sculptor, & Engine are all repeatable cascades of a type. Elf, Remnant, Boon, and Outburst cover the cross section of effects Rain provides. So, a card with possible repeat cascade needs to cost 6+ regardless of anything else. Putting that together with a field wide pump and bonus, possibly in the form of a Ball Lightning variant, and I think this was still undercost at the rate I had, so I pushed it up another pip on both costs.
I think what I've learned the most from this exercise is that cascade is a hard mechanic to balance in a vacuum, especially when paired with enablers.
Summer Rain combines the cascade and recursion into the same cost so you can dash it turn over turn with no interruption and not running out of a resource to keep doing it. That ability is strong inherently, without also being able to additionally hit your opponent for three each time you do. Yes, its a weak creature and decks running burn or counterspells can answer it easily, but decks that rely on creature combat for interaction or board wipes/sorcery speed removal cannot interact with the cascade so making it more easily blockable is a reasonable way to reduce the card advantage this is granting.