I've been seriously considering adding the following card to a set I'm developing. First glance has the people I've shown it to a bit worried it might be broken. It's kinda hard to evaluate for some reason.
Beastzilla, King of Beasts RG
Legendary Creature - Beast (Rare)
4/3
Mono-green has Kalonian Tusker at 3/3 for GG, so this for two different colors and legendary is reasonable. Any more toughness would ne too much, but 5/3 is a VEEERY big maybe.
Mono-green has Kalonian Tusker at 3/3 for GG, so this for two different colors and legendary is reasonable. Any more toughness would ne too much, but 5/3 is a VEEERY big maybe.
I wanna try it at 5/3, but I feel it will be very broken.
5/3 would definitely be too large for standard or a limited in which that color pair is expected to be easy to cast such as Ravnica but in a more powerful set such as a masters set it might be fine if its alongside answers such as lightning bolt and fatal push at common.
5/3 would definitely be too large for standard or a limited in which that color pair is expected to be easy to cast such as Ravnica but in a more powerful set such as a masters set it might be fine if its alongside answers such as lightning bolt and fatal push at common.
Yeah it's slotted for a legend for the beast tribal build in a Core Set I'm working on. 4/3 felt pushed, 5/3 feels very pushed. I don't want to give it a drawback, since the point was making a vanilla legend that was still exciting
In a tribal environment a 5/3 will be too strong. Isamaru was basically an auto include in white decks at the time and it had 0 synergies in standard.
How I felt too. A playtest with this at 5/3 would be fun, for the player using it at least. Even 4/3 looks pushed to a lot of the players testing. We all agree it can't be smaller and still be good.
EDIT: Also, the beast tribal isn't too heavy, but it is the RG draft archetype in the Core set.
It also depends on what type of tribal it is. If its tribal the spreads a lot of buff around, this will be way over power. If its tribal that relies more on checking numbers of creatures in play or triggers on the Tribe ETB, its not as bad.
It also depends on what type of tribal it is. If its tribal the spreads a lot of buff around, this will be way over power. If its tribal that relies more on checking numbers of creatures in play or triggers on the Tribe ETB, its not as bad.
The beast tribal stuff in the core set checks for presence of a beast (if you control one or more beast creatures..., if that creature is a beast..., etc.) Beasts tend to be large enough that most of the power/ toughness boosts felt like kinda redundant. There is a single one at uncommon in my file right now, the build around draft card:
Preychaser 2RG
Creature - Beast (Uncommon)
Trample
Other beast creatures you control get +1/+0 and have trample.
4/3
It also depends on what type of tribal it is. If its tribal the spreads a lot of buff around, this will be way over power. If its tribal that relies more on checking numbers of creatures in play or triggers on the Tribe ETB, its not as bad.
The beast tribal stuff in the core set checks for presence of a beast (if you control one or more beast creatures..., target creature gets X, if that creature is a beast..., etc.) Beasts tend to be large enough that most of the power/ toughness boosts felt like kinda redundant. There is a single one at uncommon in my file right now, the build around draft card:
Preychaser 2RG
Creature - Beast (Uncommon)
Trample
Other beast creatures you control get +1/+0 and have trample.
4/3
I don't think it needs to be legendary. This debate is always made all the way back to the start of magic. The first one was would a 1/1 for 0 need to be legendary. Memnite was printed and obvious answer is no. Then we had the 2/2 for 1 question. At first the answer was yes with the dog of konda. But has since been a no. Goblin guide has 2/2 for 1 with haste so yeah it gets a downside. But you take away the haste and you pretty much no longer need the legendary status. Then we got the watchwolf. 3/3 for 2? Wtf?!? And it was fine. So yes your 4/3 for 2 is doable since the colors of red and green can have bigger guys than white and green. I would also say it could be an uncommon. Just looking at history as an example. Shoot GGG gets you a 5/4 with upside or can get you a 4/5 with ease. I see nothing wrong with this. I would print a 3/1s for 2 in red and another in white to balance it out in draft. Also probably do a 3/2 for 2 in black that enters tapped. That means it can easily be answered at the common level while being a good good card if you answer their answer.
As another safety button on it you could make something like.
Edit: made him too good and a hard counter to the thread. Revised.
Mackir, The Great Prize Hunter B
Legendary creature - Human
~ gets +1/+1 for each beast your opponents control, and when ~ blocks or is blocked by a beast it gets firststrike until end of turn. BBt: Destroy target beast and create a treasure token. 1BBt, sacrifice 3 treasure tokens: Destroy target creature.
1/1
This makes a good option that also could see some play in modern in the right kind of deck without being too broken or abusable.
Another option is you can give your creature an ability that helps it scale well and actually be a design improvement over what WotC has done. Imo, the biggest let down they have done, other than some specific cards, was the Ravnica gates. So much missed opportunity.
Rumblebelt Thresser RG
Creature - Beast
Rumblebelt Thresser gets +1/+0 for each gate you control.
2/3
This version while not Vanilla is the best of everything you talked about. It's a Watchwolf on turn 2 if you led with a gate. Turn 3 you can play another gate and attack with this as a 4/3. Even possible to play a gate the following turn and have a 5/3 for 2 Mana. Not too bad. This could also be an uncommon.
Why do you want to do a legendary vanilla creature. Is it out of curiosity? Or just to show that you can?
I respect both approaches as a thought experiment, but I think you have to ask yourself the question what purpose a card will fulfill, and even IF you balance the card right, the excitement will wear off and then the question will be if the card makes sense in your set.
It's one of the lessons Marc Rosewater once stated in his brilliant presentation about game design: Never do something just because you want to show that you can.
So, if your set has a mechanic like Ferocious, it might be nice and feels great to have a creature that fulfills this special requirement for a cheap price, but if it's just a beater, I doubt it will be enough.
Why do you want to do a legendary vanilla creature. Is it out of curiosity? Or just to show that you can?
I respect both approaches as a thought experiment, but I think you have to ask yourself the question what purpose a card will fulfill, and even IF you balance the card right, the excitement will wear off and then the question will be if the card makes sense in your set.
It's one of the lessons Marc Rosewater once stated in his brilliant presentation about game design: Never do something just because you want to show that you can.
So, if your set has a mechanic like Ferocious, it might be nice and feels great to have a creature that fulfills this special requirement for a cheap price, but if it's just a beater, I doubt it will be enough.
The set is a core set, and contains a beast tribal element. I am also crafting a standard environment that has another adjacent set that has ferocious, and wanted to preprint a 2 mana enabler for it.
It being legendary was for Brawl/ Commander purposes mostly.
It's interesting, because white and black one-drops are consistently printed with 2 power and still do nothing in Standard formats over the past few years. Isamaru, Hound of Konda was a pushed card once. Toolcraft Exemplar is a nonlegendary 3/2 for 1. Sees no play.
I have had a card in my binder that is a Trained Orgg with the top half of a Brassclaw Orcs set on top of it (the Orcs was a misprint from Fallen Empires that is crimped and came out of the booster as 40% of a card.) For a long time it was considered silly; a 6/6 for 2R. It's getting less silly as we go on. Relic Golem has a drawback, and an upside. Uro, Titan of Nature's Wrath has a drawback and a loooot of upside. So we're not that far from "vanilla 6/6 for 3" territory. Would that card see play? Questionable.
Anyways, how strong vanilla creatures are allowed to be is kind of a demonstration of how much power creep we've experienced. I think something like Gigantosaurus might technically be an outlier since its five green gives the card somewhat of a flavor kick you don't get from vanilla.
It's interesting, because white and black one-drops are consistently printed with 2 power and still do nothing in Standard formats over the past few years. Isamaru, Hound of Konda was a pushed card once. Toolcraft Exemplar is a nonlegendary 3/2 for 1. Sees no play.
I have had a card in my binder that is a Trained Orgg with the top half of a Brassclaw Orcs set on top of it (the Orcs was a misprint from Fallen Empires that is crimped and came out of the booster as 40% of a card.) For a long time it was considered silly; a 6/6 for 2R. It's getting less silly as we go on. Relic Golem has a drawback, and an upside. Uro, Titan of Nature's Wrath has a drawback and a loooot of upside. So we're not that far from "vanilla 6/6 for 3" territory. Would that card see play? Questionable.
Anyways, how strong vanilla creatures are allowed to be is kind of a demonstration of how much power creep we've experienced. I think something like Gigantosaurus might technically be an outlier since its five green gives the card somewhat of a flavor kick you don't get from vanilla.
It's much easier to push them higher on the mana costs, of keeping them true vanilla.
I feel like for 1 mana, 2/2 is probably the most we can get, so that if it runs away with a game, it does so on synergy.
But by the time we get to 3 mana, a 5/5 starts seeming reasonable. Above that, almost anything goes. I could easily see a 4 CMC 9/9 vanilla.
Two is the trickier slot, because it needs to be much stronger than a 1 mana creature, but not too resilient to toughness based removal (burn, -x/-x, combat damage) that it runs away with the game until a board wipe is dropped turn 4 or 5. I feel like 3 toughness is the max, and that 5 power might be too aggressive, but still in the realm of possibility.
Beastzilla, King of Beasts RG
Legendary Creature - Beast (Rare)
4/3
Kroxa, Titan of Death's Hunger
Omnath, Locus of Rage
Kinnan, Bonder Prodigy
Toshiro Umezawa
Thraximundar
Jirina Kudro
Geist of Saint Traft
Krark, the Thumbless + Sakashima of a Thousand Faces
This site has me constantly saying "Some peoples' kids"
I wanna try it at 5/3, but I feel it will be very broken.
Kroxa, Titan of Death's Hunger
Omnath, Locus of Rage
Kinnan, Bonder Prodigy
Toshiro Umezawa
Thraximundar
Jirina Kudro
Geist of Saint Traft
Krark, the Thumbless + Sakashima of a Thousand Faces
This site has me constantly saying "Some peoples' kids"
Yeah it's slotted for a legend for the beast tribal build in a Core Set I'm working on. 4/3 felt pushed, 5/3 feels very pushed. I don't want to give it a drawback, since the point was making a vanilla legend that was still exciting
Kroxa, Titan of Death's Hunger
Omnath, Locus of Rage
Kinnan, Bonder Prodigy
Toshiro Umezawa
Thraximundar
Jirina Kudro
Geist of Saint Traft
Krark, the Thumbless + Sakashima of a Thousand Faces
This site has me constantly saying "Some peoples' kids"
How I felt too. A playtest with this at 5/3 would be fun, for the player using it at least. Even 4/3 looks pushed to a lot of the players testing. We all agree it can't be smaller and still be good.
EDIT: Also, the beast tribal isn't too heavy, but it is the RG draft archetype in the Core set.
Kroxa, Titan of Death's Hunger
Omnath, Locus of Rage
Kinnan, Bonder Prodigy
Toshiro Umezawa
Thraximundar
Jirina Kudro
Geist of Saint Traft
Krark, the Thumbless + Sakashima of a Thousand Faces
This site has me constantly saying "Some peoples' kids"
The beast tribal stuff in the core set checks for presence of a beast (if you control one or more beast creatures..., if that creature is a beast..., etc.) Beasts tend to be large enough that most of the power/ toughness boosts felt like kinda redundant. There is a single one at uncommon in my file right now, the build around draft card:
Preychaser 2RG
Creature - Beast (Uncommon)
Trample
Other beast creatures you control get +1/+0 and have trample.
4/3
Kroxa, Titan of Death's Hunger
Omnath, Locus of Rage
Kinnan, Bonder Prodigy
Toshiro Umezawa
Thraximundar
Jirina Kudro
Geist of Saint Traft
Krark, the Thumbless + Sakashima of a Thousand Faces
This site has me constantly saying "Some peoples' kids"
The beast tribal stuff in the core set checks for presence of a beast (if you control one or more beast creatures..., target creature gets X, if that creature is a beast..., etc.) Beasts tend to be large enough that most of the power/ toughness boosts felt like kinda redundant. There is a single one at uncommon in my file right now, the build around draft card:
Preychaser 2RG
Creature - Beast (Uncommon)
Trample
Other beast creatures you control get +1/+0 and have trample.
4/3
Kroxa, Titan of Death's Hunger
Omnath, Locus of Rage
Kinnan, Bonder Prodigy
Toshiro Umezawa
Thraximundar
Jirina Kudro
Geist of Saint Traft
Krark, the Thumbless + Sakashima of a Thousand Faces
This site has me constantly saying "Some peoples' kids"
As another safety button on it you could make something like.
Edit: made him too good and a hard counter to the thread. Revised.
Mackir, The Great Prize Hunter B
Legendary creature - Human
~ gets +1/+1 for each beast your opponents control, and when ~ blocks or is blocked by a beast it gets firststrike until end of turn.
BBt: Destroy target beast and create a treasure token.
1BBt, sacrifice 3 treasure tokens: Destroy target creature.
1/1
This makes a good option that also could see some play in modern in the right kind of deck without being too broken or abusable.
Another option is you can give your creature an ability that helps it scale well and actually be a design improvement over what WotC has done. Imo, the biggest let down they have done, other than some specific cards, was the Ravnica gates. So much missed opportunity.
Rumblebelt Thresser RG
Creature - Beast
Rumblebelt Thresser gets +1/+0 for each gate you control.
2/3
This version while not Vanilla is the best of everything you talked about. It's a Watchwolf on turn 2 if you led with a gate. Turn 3 you can play another gate and attack with this as a 4/3. Even possible to play a gate the following turn and have a 5/3 for 2 Mana. Not too bad. This could also be an uncommon.
Why do you want to do a legendary vanilla creature. Is it out of curiosity? Or just to show that you can?
I respect both approaches as a thought experiment, but I think you have to ask yourself the question what purpose a card will fulfill, and even IF you balance the card right, the excitement will wear off and then the question will be if the card makes sense in your set.
It's one of the lessons Marc Rosewater once stated in his brilliant presentation about game design: Never do something just because you want to show that you can.
So, if your set has a mechanic like Ferocious, it might be nice and feels great to have a creature that fulfills this special requirement for a cheap price, but if it's just a beater, I doubt it will be enough.
The set is a core set, and contains a beast tribal element. I am also crafting a standard environment that has another adjacent set that has ferocious, and wanted to preprint a 2 mana enabler for it.
It being legendary was for Brawl/ Commander purposes mostly.
Kroxa, Titan of Death's Hunger
Omnath, Locus of Rage
Kinnan, Bonder Prodigy
Toshiro Umezawa
Thraximundar
Jirina Kudro
Geist of Saint Traft
Krark, the Thumbless + Sakashima of a Thousand Faces
This site has me constantly saying "Some peoples' kids"
I have had a card in my binder that is a Trained Orgg with the top half of a Brassclaw Orcs set on top of it (the Orcs was a misprint from Fallen Empires that is crimped and came out of the booster as 40% of a card.) For a long time it was considered silly; a 6/6 for 2R. It's getting less silly as we go on. Relic Golem has a drawback, and an upside. Uro, Titan of Nature's Wrath has a drawback and a loooot of upside. So we're not that far from "vanilla 6/6 for 3" territory. Would that card see play? Questionable.
Anyways, how strong vanilla creatures are allowed to be is kind of a demonstration of how much power creep we've experienced. I think something like Gigantosaurus might technically be an outlier since its five green gives the card somewhat of a flavor kick you don't get from vanilla.
It's much easier to push them higher on the mana costs, of keeping them true vanilla.
I feel like for 1 mana, 2/2 is probably the most we can get, so that if it runs away with a game, it does so on synergy.
But by the time we get to 3 mana, a 5/5 starts seeming reasonable. Above that, almost anything goes. I could easily see a 4 CMC 9/9 vanilla.
Two is the trickier slot, because it needs to be much stronger than a 1 mana creature, but not too resilient to toughness based removal (burn, -x/-x, combat damage) that it runs away with the game until a board wipe is dropped turn 4 or 5. I feel like 3 toughness is the max, and that 5 power might be too aggressive, but still in the realm of possibility.
Kroxa, Titan of Death's Hunger
Omnath, Locus of Rage
Kinnan, Bonder Prodigy
Toshiro Umezawa
Thraximundar
Jirina Kudro
Geist of Saint Traft
Krark, the Thumbless + Sakashima of a Thousand Faces
This site has me constantly saying "Some peoples' kids"