This is a test design for planeswakers with simple ability sets, inspired by all the discussion surrounding WAR and its 36 planeswalker cards. The basic idea is that the planeswalker has a triggered ability that allows them to gain loyalty, and an activated ability that costs loyalty.
Tibalt, Diabolic Sadist1RR
Legendary Planeswalker
Whenever another permanent or a player is dealt damage by a source you control for the first time this turn, you may pay 2 and discard a card. If you do, draw a card and put a loyalty counter on ~.
-X: Create X 1/1 red Devil creature tokens with "When this creature dies, it deals 1 damage to any target."
2
Tibalt here is a sadist who likes to inflict pain on others, so his effect triggers off damage. However, to keep it from looping with say, Niv-Mizzet, Parun, it only triggers once each turn per permanent or player. It also only triggers off damage caused by sources you control to reduce the trigger count (especially important for online play) and avoid excessive player-to-player monitoring. To prevent abuse with effects like Pyroclasm, you have to pay mana in addition to discarding the card. And of course, Tibalt's a sadist, not a masochist (as far as we know), so damaging him won't trigger the ability.
But hey, it's still basically cycling a card for every creature, other planeswalker, and player you manage to damage in a single round. Could be fun in, say, a Madness or Spectacle deck.
MTGS Wikia Article about "New World Order"
Every time I read a comment about "Well if this card had card draw/trample/haste/indestructible/hexproof/life gain...", I think "You're missing the point." They're armchair developer comments that fail to take into account the card's role in the greater Limited and Standard environment. No, it may not be as good as whatever card you're comparing it to. There's a reason for that. Not every burn spell is Lightning Bolt, nor does it need to be or should be.
PSA to everyone who keeps forgetting about the Reserved List:
You're on a website dedicated to talking about MtG. You're only a few keystrokes away from finding out what cards are on the Reserved List. You're also only a few keystrokes away from finding out why some cards on the Reserved List got foil printings in FtV, as Judge promos, or whatnot, as well as why that won't happen again. Stop doing this.
There's an awful lot going on with that triggered ability. A trigger condition that works when attacking and blocking, a usage restriction, a mana cost, a rummage effect that's missing the best part about rummaging, and the loyalty gain. It could stand to be pared down a bit.
First, the rummage feels tacked-on, and it isn't necessary to the trigger-loyalty ability synergy.
Next, the brainlessly easy triggered ability clashes awkwardly with a very clunky mana cost exacerbated by Tibalt's frailty. Only triggering from damage to players lifts the condition beyond attacking or blocking with any creature that has 1 or more power, and the mana cost can be brought down to 1 in light of the fact that Tibalt's controller already paid 3 mana for him.
Finally, seeing a -X ability on a planeswalker that starts with only 2 loyalty and gains loyalty inconsistently (and not immediately unless cast behind curve) looks rather gratuitous. A -1 ability that creates one of the devil tokens would suffice, while maintaining the same synergy with the trigger.
And Panharmonicon is more enchantment than artifact. I don't really get the enchantment concerns around giving planeswalkers non-loyalty abilities. Unlike artifacts, PWs have tons of rules baggage that differentiates them from other card types, and they'll always have some number of loyalty abilities. Artifacts don't even have that. All that separates artifacts from enchantments is that artifacts are usually colorless, except for the ones that aren't. Both of Vanquisher's Banner's abilities have appeared on enchantments before, and Rage Extractor takes a role usually reserved for red enchantments. Yet, nobody talks about artifact/enchantment overlap. Why do planeswalkers get treated like static and triggered abilities would make them indistinguishable from enchantments?
And Panharmonicon is more enchantment than artifact. I don't really get the enchantment concerns around giving planeswalkers non-loyalty abilities. Unlike artifacts, PWs have tons of rules baggage that differentiates them from other card types, and they'll always have some number of loyalty abilities. Artifacts don't even have that. All that separates artifacts from enchantments is that artifacts are usually colorless, except for the ones that aren't. Both of Vanquisher's Banner's abilities have appeared on enchantments before, and Rage Extractor takes a role usually reserved for red enchantments. Yet, nobody talks about artifact/enchantment overlap. Why do planeswalkers get treated like static and triggered abilities would make them indistinguishable from enchantments?
And I don’t really get why your counter argument is “there should be three nearly identical card types instead of just two.”
You may have missed it, but the artifact:enchantment discussion has been had ad nauseum. In short, there are notable mechanical differences between many artifacts and enchantments such as tapping and equipping. There’s also flavor and immeasurable design space.
And I don’t really get why your counter argument is “there should be three nearly identical card types instead of just two.”
You may have missed it, but the artifact:enchantment discussion has been had ad nauseum. In short, there are notable mechanical differences between many artifacts and enchantments such as tapping and equipping. There’s also flavor and immeasurable design space.
Except they wouldn't be nearly identical, not even close. Planeswalkers are still going to be attackable legendary permanents with loyalty abilities, regardless of any other abilities on the cards. Loyalty abilities create a mechanical gap, same as tapping, and their legendary status, character-related type, and special card frames use flavor to distance them. What makes the artifact differences you pointed out more valuable than the planeswalker differences I mentioned?
I think you have completely missed the mark on your stated goal "simple ability sets". You're triggered ability feels like two separate abilities sutured together. While the loyalty ability is a -X just so you can "cash out" you investment if things aren't in your favor. The design would work a lot better with a simplified or cleaned trigger and a -1 instead of -X.
Yes, this is far from simple. The triggered ability can trigger many times per turn, has a cost to use, and has an additional effect beyond adding loyalty. If you want to somehow mix triggered and loyalty abilities but in a simpler fashion, here's an example:
When Vraska, Desolating Agent enters the battlefield, destroy target creature. Put a number of loyalty counters on Vraska equal to that creature's toughness.
-X: Destroy target noncreature, nonland permanent with converted mana cost X.
This is a triggered ability that, since it's ETB, you only have to worry about it once (per time you cast or recur Vraska, anyway). It has an effect besides adding loyalty, but it ties directly into Vraska's loyalty and her one activated ability.
Tibalt, Diabolic Sadist1RR
Legendary Planeswalker
Whenever damage is dealt by a source you control for the first time this turn, you may discard a card. If you do, draw a card and put a loyalty counter on ~.
-X: Create X 1/1 red Devil creature tokens with "When this creature dies, it deals 1 damage to any target."
2
The intent is that the effect triggers once per turn. A source you control deals damage, you get to cycle a card and put a loyalty counter on Tibalt.
MTGS Wikia Article about "New World Order"
Every time I read a comment about "Well if this card had card draw/trample/haste/indestructible/hexproof/life gain...", I think "You're missing the point." They're armchair developer comments that fail to take into account the card's role in the greater Limited and Standard environment. No, it may not be as good as whatever card you're comparing it to. There's a reason for that. Not every burn spell is Lightning Bolt, nor does it need to be or should be.
PSA to everyone who keeps forgetting about the Reserved List:
You're on a website dedicated to talking about MtG. You're only a few keystrokes away from finding out what cards are on the Reserved List. You're also only a few keystrokes away from finding out why some cards on the Reserved List got foil printings in FtV, as Judge promos, or whatnot, as well as why that won't happen again. Stop doing this.
I think the triggered ability should just be
"Whenever damage is dealt by a source you control for the first time each turn, put a loyalty counter on ~."
And then the looting should be an activated ability alongside making devils.
If you want simple card design, you're not going to get it by sneaking a second ability onto the first one.
But does that version play badly? I mean, it's just a rummage trigger with the added benefit of a loyalty counter.
I guess I could just ditch the trigger and make Tibalt a PW with two loyalty abilities.
Tibalt, Diabolic Sadist1RR
Legendary Planeswalker
+1: Whenever damage is dealt by a source you control for the first time this turn, you may discard a card. If you do, draw a card.
-X: Create X 1/1 red Devil creature tokens with "When this creature dies, it deals 1 damage to any target."
3
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
MTGS Wikia Article about "New World Order"
Every time I read a comment about "Well if this card had card draw/trample/haste/indestructible/hexproof/life gain...", I think "You're missing the point." They're armchair developer comments that fail to take into account the card's role in the greater Limited and Standard environment. No, it may not be as good as whatever card you're comparing it to. There's a reason for that. Not every burn spell is Lightning Bolt, nor does it need to be or should be.
PSA to everyone who keeps forgetting about the Reserved List:
You're on a website dedicated to talking about MtG. You're only a few keystrokes away from finding out what cards are on the Reserved List. You're also only a few keystrokes away from finding out why some cards on the Reserved List got foil printings in FtV, as Judge promos, or whatnot, as well as why that won't happen again. Stop doing this.
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
Tibalt, Diabolic Sadist 1RR
Legendary Planeswalker
Whenever another permanent or a player is dealt damage by a source you control for the first time this turn, you may pay 2 and discard a card. If you do, draw a card and put a loyalty counter on ~.
-X: Create X 1/1 red Devil creature tokens with "When this creature dies, it deals 1 damage to any target."
2
Tibalt here is a sadist who likes to inflict pain on others, so his effect triggers off damage. However, to keep it from looping with say, Niv-Mizzet, Parun, it only triggers once each turn per permanent or player. It also only triggers off damage caused by sources you control to reduce the trigger count (especially important for online play) and avoid excessive player-to-player monitoring. To prevent abuse with effects like Pyroclasm, you have to pay mana in addition to discarding the card. And of course, Tibalt's a sadist, not a masochist (as far as we know), so damaging him won't trigger the ability.
But hey, it's still basically cycling a card for every creature, other planeswalker, and player you manage to damage in a single round. Could be fun in, say, a Madness or Spectacle deck.
Every time I read a comment about "Well if this card had card draw/trample/haste/indestructible/hexproof/life gain...", I think "You're missing the point." They're armchair developer comments that fail to take into account the card's role in the greater Limited and Standard environment. No, it may not be as good as whatever card you're comparing it to. There's a reason for that. Not every burn spell is Lightning Bolt, nor does it need to be or should be.
First, the rummage feels tacked-on, and it isn't necessary to the trigger-loyalty ability synergy.
Next, the brainlessly easy triggered ability clashes awkwardly with a very clunky mana cost exacerbated by Tibalt's frailty. Only triggering from damage to players lifts the condition beyond attacking or blocking with any creature that has 1 or more power, and the mana cost can be brought down to 1 in light of the fact that Tibalt's controller already paid 3 mana for him.
Finally, seeing a -X ability on a planeswalker that starts with only 2 loyalty and gains loyalty inconsistently (and not immediately unless cast behind curve) looks rather gratuitous. A -1 ability that creates one of the devil tokens would suffice, while maintaining the same synergy with the trigger.
And Panharmonicon is more enchantment than artifact. I don't really get the enchantment concerns around giving planeswalkers non-loyalty abilities. Unlike artifacts, PWs have tons of rules baggage that differentiates them from other card types, and they'll always have some number of loyalty abilities. Artifacts don't even have that. All that separates artifacts from enchantments is that artifacts are usually colorless, except for the ones that aren't. Both of Vanquisher's Banner's abilities have appeared on enchantments before, and Rage Extractor takes a role usually reserved for red enchantments. Yet, nobody talks about artifact/enchantment overlap. Why do planeswalkers get treated like static and triggered abilities would make them indistinguishable from enchantments?
And I don’t really get why your counter argument is “there should be three nearly identical card types instead of just two.”
You may have missed it, but the artifact:enchantment discussion has been had ad nauseum. In short, there are notable mechanical differences between many artifacts and enchantments such as tapping and equipping. There’s also flavor and immeasurable design space.
Except they wouldn't be nearly identical, not even close. Planeswalkers are still going to be attackable legendary permanents with loyalty abilities, regardless of any other abilities on the cards. Loyalty abilities create a mechanical gap, same as tapping, and their legendary status, character-related type, and special card frames use flavor to distance them. What makes the artifact differences you pointed out more valuable than the planeswalker differences I mentioned?
When Vraska, Desolating Agent enters the battlefield, destroy target creature. Put a number of loyalty counters on Vraska equal to that creature's toughness.
-X: Destroy target noncreature, nonland permanent with converted mana cost X.
This is a triggered ability that, since it's ETB, you only have to worry about it once (per time you cast or recur Vraska, anyway). It has an effect besides adding loyalty, but it ties directly into Vraska's loyalty and her one activated ability.
I̟̥͍̠ͅn̩͉̣͍̬͚ͅ ̬̬͖t̯̹̞̺͖͓̯̤h̘͍̬e͙̯͈̖̼̮ ̭̬f̺̲̲̪i͙͉̟̩̰r̪̝͚͈̝̥͍̝̲s̼̻͇̘̳͔ͅt̲̺̳̗̜̪̙ ̳̺̥̻͚̗ͅm̜̜̟̰͈͓͎͇o̝̖̮̝͇m̯̻̞̼̫̗͓̤e̩̯̬̮̩n͎̱̪̲̹͖t͇̖s̰̮ͅ,̤̲͙̻̭̻̯̹̰ ̖t̫̙̺̯͖͚̯ͅh͙̯̦̳̗̰̟e͖̪͉̼̯ ̪͕g̞̣͔a̗̦t̬̬͓͙̫̖̭̻e̩̻̯ ̜̖̦̖̤̭͙̬t̞̹̥̪͎͉ͅo͕͚͍͇̲͇͓̺ ̭̬͙͈̣̻t͈͍͙͓̫̖͙̩h̪̬̖̙e̗͈ ̗̬̟̞̺̤͉̯ͅa̦̯͚̙̜̮f͉͙̲̣̞̼t̪̤̞̣͚e̲͉̳̥r͇̪̙͚͓l̥̞̞͎̹̯̹ͅi͓̬f̮̥̬̞͈ͅe͎ ̟̩̤̳̠̯̩̯o̮̘̲p̟͚̣̞͉͓e͍̩̣n͔̼͕͚̜e̬̱d̼̘͎̖̹͍̮̠,͖̺̭̱̮ ̣̲͖̬̪̭̥a̪͚n̟̲̝̤̤̞̗d̘̱̗͇̮͕̳͕͔ ͖̞͉͎t̹̙͎h̰̱͉̗e̪̞̱̝̹̩ͅ ̠̱̩̭̦p̯̙e͓o̳͚̰̯̺̱̰͔̘p̬͎̱̣̼̩͇l̗̟̖͚̠e̱͉͔̱̦̬̟̙ ̖͚̪͔̼̦w̺̖̤̱e͖̗̻̦͓̖̘̜r̭̥e͔̹̫̱͕̦̰͕ ̗͔̠p̠̗͍͍̱̳̠r̰͔͎̰o͉̥͓̰͚̥s̟͚̹̱͔̣t͉̙̳̖͖̪̮r̥̘̥͙̹a͉̟̫̟̳̠̟̭t͈̜̰͈͎e̞̣̭̲̬ ͚̗̯̟͙i͍͖̰̘̦͖͉ṇ̮̻̯̦̲̩͍ ̦̮͚̫̤t͉͖̫͕ͅͅh͙̮̻̘̣̮̼e͕̺ ͙l͕̠͎̰̥i̲͓͉̲g̫̳̟͈͇̖h̠̦̖t͓̯͎̗ ̳̪̘̟̙̩̦o̫̲f̙͔̰̙̠ ̹̪̗͇̯t͖̼̼͉͖̬h̹͇̩e͚̖̺̤͉̹͕̪ ͚͓̭̝̺G͎̗̯̩o̫̯̮̟̮̳̘d̜̲͙̠-̩̳̯̲̗̜P̹̘̥͉̝h͍͈̗̖̝ͅa͍̗̮̼̗r̜̖͇̙̺a̭̺͔̞̳͈o̪̣͓̯̬͙̯̰̗h̖̦͈̥̯͔.͇̣̙̝
Tibalt, Diabolic Sadist 1RR
Legendary Planeswalker
Whenever damage is dealt by a source you control for the first time this turn, you may discard a card. If you do, draw a card and put a loyalty counter on ~.
-X: Create X 1/1 red Devil creature tokens with "When this creature dies, it deals 1 damage to any target."
2
The intent is that the effect triggers once per turn. A source you control deals damage, you get to cycle a card and put a loyalty counter on Tibalt.
Every time I read a comment about "Well if this card had card draw/trample/haste/indestructible/hexproof/life gain...", I think "You're missing the point." They're armchair developer comments that fail to take into account the card's role in the greater Limited and Standard environment. No, it may not be as good as whatever card you're comparing it to. There's a reason for that. Not every burn spell is Lightning Bolt, nor does it need to be or should be.
"Whenever damage is dealt by a source you control for the first time each turn, put a loyalty counter on ~."
And then the looting should be an activated ability alongside making devils.
If you want simple card design, you're not going to get it by sneaking a second ability onto the first one.
- Rabid Wombat
I guess I could just ditch the trigger and make Tibalt a PW with two loyalty abilities.
Tibalt, Diabolic Sadist 1RR
Legendary Planeswalker
+1: Whenever damage is dealt by a source you control for the first time this turn, you may discard a card. If you do, draw a card.
-X: Create X 1/1 red Devil creature tokens with "When this creature dies, it deals 1 damage to any target."
3
Every time I read a comment about "Well if this card had card draw/trample/haste/indestructible/hexproof/life gain...", I think "You're missing the point." They're armchair developer comments that fail to take into account the card's role in the greater Limited and Standard environment. No, it may not be as good as whatever card you're comparing it to. There's a reason for that. Not every burn spell is Lightning Bolt, nor does it need to be or should be.