I have a dumb idea I've been working on. Ignoring for the moment that this breaks the whole "don't treat exile like another graveyard" rule (i.e. the playgroup we would use these cards in are cool with pulling stuff back from exile as an effect suitable for uncommon), how reasonable are these cards balance-wise?
EDIT: note, these are specifically for commander, where exile tends to be more common.
Invoke the ForgottenC
Sorcery (U)
~~~
Elicit a creature card. (To elicit a card, choose a card of the specified type at random from among face-up cards in exile. You may play that card this turn, and may spend mana as though it were mana of any type to cast it.)
~~~
Lost IncantationC
Sorcery (U)
~~~
Elicit an instant or sorcery card. (To elicit a card, choose a card of the specified type at random from among face-up cards in exile. You may play that card this turn, and may spend mana as though it were mana of any type to cast it.)
~~~
Existential Enumeration2CC
Sorcery (R)
~~~
Elicit three nonland cards. Spells you cast from exile this turn cost 2 less to cast.
~~~
In the Angle1C
Instant (U)
~~~
Elicit a creature card. That card gains flash until end of turn.
~~~
The idea is that, by selecting at random, exiling is still somewhat effective since it will flood out cards you might actually want with other less desirable cards. You also need to pay the mana cost of cards you elicit, so there's not a lot of chance for huge bombs at disproportionate cost.
Note that these were originally designed for a 'purple' color. The colorless mana might make them a bit too splash-able.
Unless you are constantly using Rest in Peace or Final Judgment like cards the exile zone shouldn't be over flowing with cards, so the random element is more annoying than functional. If tailored to a specific play group that is constantly exiling everything then they become more reasonable, but as general cards they are far too efficient at getting problematic cards back from the place where you put problematic cards so they can't be gotten back.
Unless you are constantly using Rest in Peace or Final Judgment like cards the exile zone shouldn't be over flowing with cards, so the random element is more annoying than functional. If tailored to a specific play group that is constantly exiling everything then they become more reasonable, but as general cards they are far too efficient at getting problematic cards back from the place where you put problematic cards so they can't be gotten back.
I'm used to posting between this thread and the Commander thread, so I neglected to mention that these are for Commander in particular. Exiles are more common there.
Cards like Final Judgement or Merciless Eviction are usually used as a 'clear everything, nothing survives this' move. These cards circumvent that somewhat, but if you're following up one of those cards with an elicit card then you're playing potluck.
Cards like Path to Exile, Anguished Unmaking, and Swords to Plowshares are just efficient single-target removal for which exiling rather than destroying is really just a bonus. You'd probably play them anyways if they just said 'destroy'. I don't see circumventing this as a problem.
It doesn't circumvent mass GY exile in most cases due to crowding, which is the big one since it's also used to stop graveyard shenanigans in Commander.
The only cards to truly suffer are cards like Cremate, Scavenging Ooze, Deathrite Shaman (none of which are super-popular in commander, but are definitely a significant consideration in 60-card), and especially Sadistic Sacrament-type effects. Is that too large a subset of cards to work well against?
To be honest, you really can't ignore the whole, "don't treat exile like another graveyard" thing. Retrieving something back from exile is supposd to be hard. It's a necessary mechanic since retrieving things from the graveyard is already too easy.
Make exile into graveyard 2.0 and all you're doing is forcing yet another zone to be created to replace how exile functions now.
To be honest, you really can't ignore the whole, "don't treat exile like another graveyard" thing.
Well, that's the main reason for the "at random" part; a good portion of the time this will be no different from "you may cast the top card of a random player's library". The concern is when only a small number of cards are in exile, and the counterplay is exiling cards, just like for normal graveyard recursion. The idea is that retrieving a specific card is still difficult.
And if you're talking from some sort of idealistic perspective, then it's entirely up to the playgroup. So, no dice there.
I play enough EDH to know that I LOVE this mechanic. But I'd push the power level for EDH. Most of these could easily be cantrips.
I was planning not to push the power too much, beyond the baseline push-edness of the ability itself. This has potentially a huge amount of synergy with cards that were never meant to be synergized with. My favorite so far is Skyship Weatherlight, but I strongly suspect there are cards that are unfair with it...
Yeah, like those. That's a very good point. I had figured that flashback cards were okay, but I hadn't thought of cards like Yawgmoth's Will or the ones you list.
Fairly soon we're going to need the "really-really-freaking-out-of-the-game-no-you-can't-interact-with-this" zone.
And if you're talking from some sort of idealistic perspective, then it's entirely up to the playgroup. So, no dice there.
This isn't about idealism. This is about infinite one-up-manship. It's creating a targetted spell and adding "this spell can target creatures that can't be targetted" and keywording that ability. It's creating superflying that can only be blocked by superfliers, but not regular fliers. Making exile that much more accessible means you have to have a way to counter this (other than the usual countermagic). And that means having to create spells which go along the veing of "this can't be elicited". OR the creation of said "can't touch this" zone. And who wants to bet someone will try to create cards that affect the can't touch this zone? Hey, after all, precedent exists -- exile is supposed to be such a zone.
I can see ONE of the sample spells being printed (and has to cost more than it does), and it has to be a rare at least. Actually keywording ssuch an ability? Hell no.
Fairly soon we're going to need the "really-really-freaking-out-of-the-game-no-you-can't-interact-with-this" zone.
Why does there need to be a zone that's impossible to get cards back from? As long as it isn't so easy to bring cards back that you can create super-abusive archetypes based on it, like is true for the graveyard, then it's not going to fundamentally break the game. Mirror of Fate is enough to prove that effects which pull cards back from exile can exist, so this is just asking how far you can push it and remain balanced.
This is about infinite one-up-manship. It's creating a targetted spell and adding "this spell can target creatures that can't be targetted" and keywording that ability. It's creating superflying that can only be blocked by superfliers, but not regular fliers.
This is about creating a keyword that says you can block fliers even though you aren't one. Oh, wait. This is about creating a keyword for spells that says spells that counter spells can't counter this one. Oh, wait. This would be like creating an easy-to-run land that negates hexproof. Oh, wait. This is the same as giving players life totals, then creating a mechanic that lets you bypass it. Oh, wait.
You'd be right that this isn't something that should ever be present in mainstream Magic, except that's explicitly already not the goal. These cards would be played in a small group of people who are okay with playing some unusual cards. I'm just asking about balance, suggestions for better wording, and potential degenerate combos to watch out and cost appropriately for (like the aforementioned self-exiling spells Oreth pointed out). I'm also curious how well people feel that the randomness works as a balancing mechanism.
Fairly soon we're going to need the "really-really-freaking-out-of-the-game-no-you-can't-interact-with-this" zone.
Why does there need to be a zone that's impossible to get cards back from?
oRginally, the graveyard had a couple of things that interacted with it. Today, graveyard recursion is the #1 reason why cards are banned and restricted, DESPITE numerous cards designed to prevent graveyard recursion by putting things into exile.
Now you want to further make an existing problem worse by making solutions to a problem even less effective. And since you want it keyworded, that means more than one instance of it will pop up.
Then someone will have to design something that prevents exile recusion.
Then someone, likely whop thinks like you do, is going to design cards that stop cards that stop exile recursion.
When does it end?
As long as it isn't so easy to bring cards back that you can create super-abusive archetypes based on it]
There are several cards that bring back from exile. However, they are so rare as not to have a keyword assigned to them.
This is about infinite one-up-manship. It's creating a targetted spell and adding "this spell can target creatures that can't be targetted" and keywording that ability. It's creating superflying that can only be blocked by superfliers, but not regular fliers.
This is about creating a keyword that says you can block fliers even though you aren't one. Oh, wait.
[/quote]
What does that have to do with "superflying", which I specifically stated was going to be better than flying? You're putting words in my mouth.
This is about creating a keyword for spells that says spells that counter spells can't counter this one. Oh, wait.
Sudden shock doesn't prevent countering spells. You can counter sudden shock just fine. You can't put a spell on the stack, but countering it is not a problem.
This would be like creating an easy-to-run land that negates hexproof. Oh, wait.
Anti hexproof is not a keyword.
This is the same as giving players life totals, then creating a mechanic that lets you bypass it. Oh, wait.
Now this is just dumb. Maro specifically stated that there won't be onesupmanship to poison because he didn't want poison to be just another life total. You're proving my point, not refuting it.
You're inventing examples that have nothing to do with anything I said, then going "oh wait", as if it proves I'm wrong... when they're YOUR examples, not mine.
Gotta go with Mondu on this one. If Exile Recursion becomes a major theme of Magic, then the developers will need to create a "Get Rekt Kid" zone to do the stuff Exile did before recursion became a thing.
As long as it isn't so easy to bring cards back that you can create super-abusive archetypes based on it, like is true for the graveyard, then it's not going to fundamentally break the game. Mirror of Fate is enough to prove that effects which pull cards back from exile can exist, so this is just asking how far you can push it and remain balanced.
The answer is probably about as far as it's currently being pushed, which is to say not very.
If a mechanic gets keyworded, that means it's a reasonably major theme of at least one set, which is probably too far.
Honestly, if you are going to do it I'd prefer your cards if they were Purple and had at least PP in the casting cost. It'd carve out a theme for a color which needs to be striking if it's done at all, and is unlikely to come back.
Regarding Poison, there are no recently printed black border spells which remove poison counters, and poison is itself limited to self-poisoning and Infect damage. The point of those design choices is to carve space between Life and Poison.
Regarding Arcane Lighthouse, that was printed in a supplemental set as a single card. It's not supposed to be a new push or a major theme, and off the top of my head only two cards in the game do something similar.
Split Second was printed in Time Spiral block, which MaRo has gone on record to describe as a mistake, at least as far as public understanding of Magic design is concerned. Even then, it's not the best example to use here, as it's a reference to the Interrupt card type.
Reach specifically fits into a defensive space of the game, and is a counter to flying. Comparing Reach and hypothetical Super-Flying doesn't really work, because they would exist for different purposes. Shadow is probably a better comparison (and even that was last seen in Time Spiral).
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EDIT: note, these are specifically for commander, where exile tends to be more common.
Invoke the Forgotten C
Sorcery (U)
~~~
Elicit a creature card. (To elicit a card, choose a card of the specified type at random from among face-up cards in exile. You may play that card this turn, and may spend mana as though it were mana of any type to cast it.)
~~~
Lost Incantation C
Sorcery (U)
~~~
Elicit an instant or sorcery card. (To elicit a card, choose a card of the specified type at random from among face-up cards in exile. You may play that card this turn, and may spend mana as though it were mana of any type to cast it.)
~~~
Existential Enumeration 2CC
Sorcery (R)
~~~
Elicit three nonland cards. Spells you cast from exile this turn cost 2 less to cast.
~~~
In the Angle 1C
Instant (U)
~~~
Elicit a creature card. That card gains flash until end of turn.
~~~
The idea is that, by selecting at random, exiling is still somewhat effective since it will flood out cards you might actually want with other less desirable cards. You also need to pay the mana cost of cards you elicit, so there's not a lot of chance for huge bombs at disproportionate cost.
Note that these were originally designed for a 'purple' color. The colorless mana might make them a bit too splash-able.
- Rabid Wombat
Cards like Final Judgement or Merciless Eviction are usually used as a 'clear everything, nothing survives this' move. These cards circumvent that somewhat, but if you're following up one of those cards with an elicit card then you're playing potluck.
Cards like Path to Exile, Anguished Unmaking, and Swords to Plowshares are just efficient single-target removal for which exiling rather than destroying is really just a bonus. You'd probably play them anyways if they just said 'destroy'. I don't see circumventing this as a problem.
It doesn't circumvent mass GY exile in most cases due to crowding, which is the big one since it's also used to stop graveyard shenanigans in Commander.
The only cards to truly suffer are cards like Cremate, Scavenging Ooze, Deathrite Shaman (none of which are super-popular in commander, but are definitely a significant consideration in 60-card), and especially Sadistic Sacrament-type effects. Is that too large a subset of cards to work well against?
- Rabid Wombat
Make exile into graveyard 2.0 and all you're doing is forcing yet another zone to be created to replace how exile functions now.
And if you're talking from some sort of idealistic perspective, then it's entirely up to the playgroup. So, no dice there.
I was planning not to push the power too much, beyond the baseline push-edness of the ability itself. This has potentially a huge amount of synergy with cards that were never meant to be synergized with. My favorite so far is Skyship Weatherlight, but I strongly suspect there are cards that are unfair with it...
Yeah, like those. That's a very good point. I had figured that flashback cards were okay, but I hadn't thought of cards like Yawgmoth's Will or the ones you list.
- Rabid Wombat
This isn't about idealism. This is about infinite one-up-manship. It's creating a targetted spell and adding "this spell can target creatures that can't be targetted" and keywording that ability. It's creating superflying that can only be blocked by superfliers, but not regular fliers. Making exile that much more accessible means you have to have a way to counter this (other than the usual countermagic). And that means having to create spells which go along the veing of "this can't be elicited". OR the creation of said "can't touch this" zone. And who wants to bet someone will try to create cards that affect the can't touch this zone? Hey, after all, precedent exists -- exile is supposed to be such a zone.
I can see ONE of the sample spells being printed (and has to cost more than it does), and it has to be a rare at least. Actually keywording ssuch an ability? Hell no.
"Sometimes, the situation is outracing a threat, sometimes it's ignoring it, and sometimes it involves sideboarding in 4x Hope//Pray." --Doug Linn
Otherwise, eh...I don't know. Seems like chasing of the tail the to me.
This is about creating a keyword that says you can block fliers even though you aren't one. Oh, wait. This is about creating a keyword for spells that says spells that counter spells can't counter this one. Oh, wait. This would be like creating an easy-to-run land that negates hexproof. Oh, wait. This is the same as giving players life totals, then creating a mechanic that lets you bypass it. Oh, wait.
You'd be right that this isn't something that should ever be present in mainstream Magic, except that's explicitly already not the goal. These cards would be played in a small group of people who are okay with playing some unusual cards. I'm just asking about balance, suggestions for better wording, and potential degenerate combos to watch out and cost appropriately for (like the aforementioned self-exiling spells Oreth pointed out). I'm also curious how well people feel that the randomness works as a balancing mechanism.
- Rabid Wombat
oRginally, the graveyard had a couple of things that interacted with it. Today, graveyard recursion is the #1 reason why cards are banned and restricted, DESPITE numerous cards designed to prevent graveyard recursion by putting things into exile.
Now you want to further make an existing problem worse by making solutions to a problem even less effective. And since you want it keyworded, that means more than one instance of it will pop up.
Then someone will have to design something that prevents exile recusion.
Then someone, likely whop thinks like you do, is going to design cards that stop cards that stop exile recursion.
When does it end?
There are several cards that bring back from exile. However, they are so rare as not to have a keyword assigned to them.
This is about creating a keyword that says you can block fliers even though you aren't one. Oh, wait.
[/quote]
What does that have to do with "superflying", which I specifically stated was going to be better than flying? You're putting words in my mouth.
Sudden shock doesn't prevent countering spells. You can counter sudden shock just fine. You can't put a spell on the stack, but countering it is not a problem.
Anti hexproof is not a keyword.
Now this is just dumb. Maro specifically stated that there won't be onesupmanship to poison because he didn't want poison to be just another life total. You're proving my point, not refuting it.
You're inventing examples that have nothing to do with anything I said, then going "oh wait", as if it proves I'm wrong... when they're YOUR examples, not mine.
"Sometimes, the situation is outracing a threat, sometimes it's ignoring it, and sometimes it involves sideboarding in 4x Hope//Pray." --Doug Linn
The answer is probably about as far as it's currently being pushed, which is to say not very.
If a mechanic gets keyworded, that means it's a reasonably major theme of at least one set, which is probably too far.
Honestly, if you are going to do it I'd prefer your cards if they were Purple and had at least PP in the casting cost. It'd carve out a theme for a color which needs to be striking if it's done at all, and is unlikely to come back.
Regarding Poison, there are no recently printed black border spells which remove poison counters, and poison is itself limited to self-poisoning and Infect damage. The point of those design choices is to carve space between Life and Poison.
Regarding Arcane Lighthouse, that was printed in a supplemental set as a single card. It's not supposed to be a new push or a major theme, and off the top of my head only two cards in the game do something similar.
Split Second was printed in Time Spiral block, which MaRo has gone on record to describe as a mistake, at least as far as public understanding of Magic design is concerned. Even then, it's not the best example to use here, as it's a reference to the Interrupt card type.
Reach specifically fits into a defensive space of the game, and is a counter to flying. Comparing Reach and hypothetical Super-Flying doesn't really work, because they would exist for different purposes. Shadow is probably a better comparison (and even that was last seen in Time Spiral).
Art is life itself.