This thread came about partly because of this excerpt from this week's Making Magic, with the relevant points in bold:
My actual answer, though, is prowess. While I'm a huge fan of the mechanic, it's been causing us all sorts of headaches. The biggest issue is not an obvious problem: we've found that it meshes poorly with certain set themes. Numerous teams have chosen to leave it out of sets because of this. The mechanic also adds a lot to board complexity, forcing us to be more careful with how often we use it at common. (Having a common creature—one without square stats—that changes its own stats gets red-flagged, for example.) It's the only evergreen mechanic that stacks, which can cause problems with certain designs. It's also the only evergreen mechanic that's triggered, which causes a different set of problems. It's fun and flavorful, it plays well, and it gives us a blue-red overlap, but it comes with a real cost.
The second point (being triggered) has been on my mind from since prowess was announced it was going evergreen. This made me think back to when lifelink and deathtouch were both keyworded, which was back in Future Sight. If you look at the original printed versions of Daybreak Coronet* and Thornweald Archer*, you can see that lifelink and deathtouch also made their debut as triggers. Deathtouch in particular went through several modifications (see Acidic Slime's reminder text in M10, for example), before it finally got cleaned up to today's wording and functionality. More importantly, both keywords went from triggered to static abilities in the M10 update. So here I am, making the following proposal about prowess potentially doing the same. I wouldn't say I have a Holy Grail solution, but I do think I have a conversation starting point.
Fight Analyst (Common)
UR
Creature - Human Warrior
2/1
Prowess (This creature gets +1/+1 if you casted a noncreature spell this turn. Instances of prowess are cumulative.)
There were two major goals here:
- Find a way to make it static.
- Preserve most of the functionality.
One of the roles of an evergreen mechanic is that it should be fairly simple and straightforward, without adding complexity to the board. Prowess is going to create complexity by definition of its existence, but the complexity can be reduced somewhat by limiting how much it can happen. Changing it to an on/off mechanic goes a long way towards that. Why is it any spell, and not just noncreature? For the sake of simplicity. It's very easy to remember if you casted a (EDIT) noncreature (/EDIT) spell or not. While most people will remember if they casted a noncreature spell or not in a given turn, I felt that if it keyed off of any spell, that increases the gameplay and deckbuilding opportunities with it.
So with that said, here's some random stuff that involves this hypothetical change:
Pinnacle Mage (Mythic)
4U
Creature - Vedalken Wizard
2/3
Flying
Pinnacle Mage gets +1/+1 for each spell you cast this turn.
Spells you cast cost 1 less to cast.
Whenever you cast a spell, if it's the third spell you cast this turn, draw three cards.
Rem Karolus, Inquisitor (Mythic)
WW
Legendary Creature - Human Soldier
2/2
First strike, vigilance
Protection from Vampires, from Werewolves, and from Zombies
Whenever a creature blocks or is blocked by Rem Karolus, Inquisitor, you may pay 3W. If you do, transform Rem Karolus.
///
Rem Karolus, Slayer
(white)
Legendary Creature - Human Soldier
3/3
First strike, vigilance, prowess
Protection from Vampires, from Werewolves, and from Zombies
When this creature transforms into Rem Karolus, Slayer, you may destroy target Vampire, Werewolf, or Zombie.
Harvest the Fruit (Rare)
1U
Sorcery
Each creature you control gains prowess until end of turn. (Instances of prowess are cumulative.)
Glimpse of Potential (Uncommon)
2U
Enchantment - Aura
Enchant creature
When Glimpse of Potential enters the battlefield, draw a card.
2U: Enchanted creature gains prowess until end of turn.
Blind Pugilist (Common)
3R
Creature - Human Monk
3/2
Prowess (This creature gets +1/+1 if you casted a noncreature spell this turn.)
I really like how neat and tidy Harvest the Fruit is. One could argue that this makes the game less interactive, since the new version means you can't Shock a Swiftspear before it becomes a 2/3. Your version is definitely easier to remember though, which is a good thing for an evergreen mechanic.
It also simplifies sequencing of effects, if for example you want to Anger of the Gods before you play your Swiftspear. This is a good thing or bad thing depending on who you ask.
I really like how neat and tidy Harvest the Fruit is. One could argue that this makes the game less interactive, since the new version means you can't Shock a Swiftspear before it becomes a 2/3. Your version is definitely easier to remember though, which is a good thing for an evergreen mechanic.
It also simplifies sequencing of effects, if for example you want to Anger of the Gods before you play your Swiftspear. This is a good thing or bad thing depending on who you ask.
The more I think about it, though, the more I think Harvest the Fruit would not be a sorcery. Blue doesn't get creature pump on spells (for +N/+N) pretty much ever. The way that spell is worded is basically a blue version of "Creature you control get +1/+1 until end of turn." That ain't gonna really fly. I think it would have to be an enchantment in order to not be a color break, along these lines:
Harvest the Fruit (Rare)
2U
Enchantment
Creatures you control have prowess. (They get +1/+1 if you casted a noncreature spell this turn. Instances of prowess are cumulative.)
On a Higher Level (Common)
1U
Enchantment - Aura
Enchant creature
Enchanted creature has flying and prowess.
I'm not really sold on Prowess as an on/off. That takes away an immense amount of its charm. It can easily be implemented as a static ability without ruining it in this way; why not pursue a more conservative redesign?
Also this still stacks. I'm not certain about what point you are making bolding two problems and solving only one. That said, I have suggested a version similar to this before when we were still discussing blue-red options (for instants/sorceries since prowess did not yet exist as a precedence).
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Planar Chaos was not a mistake neither was it random. You might want to look at it again.
[thread=239793][Game] Level Up - Creature[/thread]
Prowess (This creature gets +1/+1 for each noncreature spell you've cast this turn.)
That depends on what your definition of "work" is. It "works" on the lowest level: It's functional under the rules. If I understand correctly, it's what willows suggests two posts up without explicitly typing out the reminder text.
On the higher level it still stacks and hence does not address all the issues with prowess, so it doesn't "work" as a complete solution.
On a middling level you would compare it to the suggestion in the OP and check in what ways it is better/worse than the original suggestion. It's closer to prowess as triggered ability which might be considered better (as willows states there is an appeal to the repeatable use); but it also reintroduces issues the version from the OP tried to address e. g. it's easier to remember correctly whether you played at least one noncreature spell vs. recalling te exact number of noncreature spells (this point now becomes important since your proposed new version of prowess also counts spells cast before it is on the battlefield and the importance of counting noncreature spells becomes public information).
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Planar Chaos was not a mistake neither was it random. You might want to look at it again.
[thread=239793][Game] Level Up - Creature[/thread]
Also this still stacks. I'm not certain about what point you are making bolding two problems and solving only one. That said, I have suggested a version similar to this before when we were still discussing blue-red options (for instants/sorceries since prowess did not yet exist as a precedence).
SecretInfiltrator covered most of my points, but now that I'm home from work (and not losing my mind) I can answer myself:
Prowess stacking.
The issue I perceive here is largely born of the matter of "how many noncreature spells did you cast this turn?" Generally speaking, this will be somewhat easy to track, but what Maro posted about with regards to the issues with prowess, is that the ability for allowing multiple noncreature spells to really boost a creature -- without factoring in the effects of those noncreature spells -- can really warp Limited. Multiple creatures can get bigger from one spell, to name one example, and it rapidly increases the board complexity if multiple noncreature spells are being fired off by the controller of the creatures with prowess. This is largely due to the fact that prowess can repeatedly trigger as it is now. It's part of the reason we are seeing so few prowess creatures outside of Tarkir block.* Changing it to a static +1/+1 yes/no greatly reduces the "board math" for what a creature will end up at, but more importantly it means that Set and Play Design can better influence just how big a Prowess creature can potentially get, by limiting how many instances of prowess it can stack up.
In addition, they could also put in cards explicitly to grant the higher power/toughness (by bestowing more instances of prowess), if they want to give it a little nudge. Right now, they can't, because they have to assume that a given creature with prowess can easily get large due to repeatable triggers. In Constructed, this isn't a difficult thing to accomplish (hi Flood of Recollection!). Sometimes, even in Limited this isn't hard. Imagine if prowess had existed back in Rise of the Eldrazi and/or in Innistrad block, with the Surreal Memoir and Spider Spawning archetypes existing in Limited. How can they possibly balance prowess around any of that? Cards like Monastery Swiftspear basically becomes an alternate win condition for those archetypes in addition to the archetype's function itself. Putting a limit on it allows them to better determine where a creature with prowess exists power wise. Right now, the balancing metric is: "This can potentially be +1/+1 to +5/+5 on any turn." Again, without factoring in the effects of those noncreature spells. And that's just for a french vanilla common.
Preserving most of the functionality.
Most of this was touched on already. Turn it on with a noncreature spell, same as always. It just becomes a matter of how high the creature is allowed to grow. I've already touched on that point, so I'll leave it at that and paste random stuff that kind of illustrates the point of what they could do after, especially if they want to make creatures that get bigger:
EXAMPLE CARDS
Cloudstrike Seeker (Common)
1U
Creature - Djinn Monk
1/1
Flying, prowess (This creature gets +1/+1 if you casted a noncreature spell this turn.)
Noble of the Sky (Uncommon?)
3UU
Creature - Elemental
3/3
Flying
Noble of the Sky has prowess for each other creature with flying you control.
Whenever you cast a noncreature spell, target creature you control gains flying until end of turn.
Lore Acquirer (Uncommon)
1UU
Creature - Human Rogue
2/2
Prowess
Whenever Lore Acquirer deals combat damage to a player, draw a card. Then, discard a card unless you casted a noncreature spell this turn.
Spellfire Elemental (Rare)
3RR
Creature - Elemental
3/3
Spellfire Elemental has prowess for each instant and sorcery card in your graveyard. (It gets +1/+1 for each of those cards in your graveyard if you casted a noncreature spell this turn.)
2R, Exile an instant or sorcery card from your graveyard: Spellfire Elemental deals 2 damage to target player.
PS - I would also like to remind everyone that lifelink stacked with itself (multiple triggers) once upon a time, back in Future Sight through Alara Reborn. It had similar issues for being swingy before it became a static ability.
The second point (being triggered) has been on my mind from since prowess was announced it was going evergreen. This made me think back to when lifelink and deathtouch were both keyworded, which was back in Future Sight. If you look at the original printed versions of Daybreak Coronet* and Thornweald Archer*, you can see that lifelink and deathtouch also made their debut as triggers. Deathtouch in particular went through several modifications (see Acidic Slime's reminder text in M10, for example), before it finally got cleaned up to today's wording and functionality. More importantly, both keywords went from triggered to static abilities in the M10 update. So here I am, making the following proposal about prowess potentially doing the same. I wouldn't say I have a Holy Grail solution, but I do think I have a conversation starting point.
Fight Analyst (Common)
UR
Creature - Human Warrior
2/1
Prowess (This creature gets +1/+1 if you casted a noncreature spell this turn. Instances of prowess are cumulative.)
There were two major goals here:
- Find a way to make it static.
- Preserve most of the functionality.
One of the roles of an evergreen mechanic is that it should be fairly simple and straightforward, without adding complexity to the board. Prowess is going to create complexity by definition of its existence, but the complexity can be reduced somewhat by limiting how much it can happen. Changing it to an on/off mechanic goes a long way towards that.
Why is it any spell, and not just noncreature? For the sake of simplicity.It's very easy to remember if you casted a (EDIT) noncreature (/EDIT) spell or not.While most people will remember if they casted a noncreature spell or not in a given turn, I felt that if it keyed off of any spell, that increases the gameplay and deckbuilding opportunities with it.So with that said, here's some random stuff that involves this hypothetical change:
Pinnacle Mage (Mythic)
4U
Creature - Vedalken Wizard
2/3
Flying
Pinnacle Mage gets +1/+1 for each spell you cast this turn.
Spells you cast cost 1 less to cast.
Whenever you cast a spell, if it's the third spell you cast this turn, draw three cards.
Rem Karolus, Inquisitor (Mythic)
WW
Legendary Creature - Human Soldier
2/2
First strike, vigilance
Protection from Vampires, from Werewolves, and from Zombies
Whenever a creature blocks or is blocked by Rem Karolus, Inquisitor, you may pay 3W. If you do, transform Rem Karolus.
///
Rem Karolus, Slayer
(white)
Legendary Creature - Human Soldier
3/3
First strike, vigilance, prowess
Protection from Vampires, from Werewolves, and from Zombies
When this creature transforms into Rem Karolus, Slayer, you may destroy target Vampire, Werewolf, or Zombie.
Harvest the Fruit (Rare)
1U
Sorcery
Each creature you control gains prowess until end of turn. (Instances of prowess are cumulative.)
Glimpse of Potential (Uncommon)
2U
Enchantment - Aura
Enchant creature
When Glimpse of Potential enters the battlefield, draw a card.
2U: Enchanted creature gains prowess until end of turn.
Blind Pugilist (Common)
3R
Creature - Human Monk
3/2
Prowess (This creature gets +1/+1 if you casted a noncreature spell this turn.)
* For cards outside of Future Sight, see Knight of Meadowgrain/Windwright Mage (lifelink) and Lace with Moonglove or Vectis Silencers (deathtouch) in Gatherer for the Lorwyn and Shards of Alara printings.
Past Ruminations
Links are broken, will fix in near future.
- Kaladesh
- Zendikar
- Rise of the Eldrazi
- Alara Reborn
- Innistrad <- Personal Favorite
- Dark Ascension
- Avacyn Restored
- Theros
- Return to Ravnica
- Tarkir
Past Ruminations
Links are broken, will fix in near future.
- Kaladesh
- Zendikar
- Rise of the Eldrazi
- Alara Reborn
- Innistrad <- Personal Favorite
- Dark Ascension
- Avacyn Restored
- Theros
- Return to Ravnica
- Tarkir
It also simplifies sequencing of effects, if for example you want to Anger of the Gods before you play your Swiftspear. This is a good thing or bad thing depending on who you ask.
- Rabid Wombat
Harvest the Fruit (Rare)
2U
Enchantment
Creatures you control have prowess. (They get +1/+1 if you casted a noncreature spell this turn. Instances of prowess are cumulative.)
On a Higher Level (Common)
1U
Enchantment - Aura
Enchant creature
Enchanted creature has flying and prowess.
Past Ruminations
Links are broken, will fix in near future.
- Kaladesh
- Zendikar
- Rise of the Eldrazi
- Alara Reborn
- Innistrad <- Personal Favorite
- Dark Ascension
- Avacyn Restored
- Theros
- Return to Ravnica
- Tarkir
Finally a good white villain quote: "So, do I ever re-evaluate my life choices? Never, because I know what I'm doing is a righteous cause."
Factions: Sleeping
Remnants: Valheim
Legendary Journey: Heroes & Planeswalkers
Saga: Shards of Rabiah
Legends: The Elder Dragons
Read up on Red Flags & NWO
Prowess (This creature gets +1/+1 for each noncreature spell you've cast this turn.)
That depends on what your definition of "work" is. It "works" on the lowest level: It's functional under the rules. If I understand correctly, it's what willows suggests two posts up without explicitly typing out the reminder text.
On the higher level it still stacks and hence does not address all the issues with prowess, so it doesn't "work" as a complete solution.
On a middling level you would compare it to the suggestion in the OP and check in what ways it is better/worse than the original suggestion. It's closer to prowess as triggered ability which might be considered better (as willows states there is an appeal to the repeatable use); but it also reintroduces issues the version from the OP tried to address e. g. it's easier to remember correctly whether you played at least one noncreature spell vs. recalling te exact number of noncreature spells (this point now becomes important since your proposed new version of prowess also counts spells cast before it is on the battlefield and the importance of counting noncreature spells becomes public information).
Finally a good white villain quote: "So, do I ever re-evaluate my life choices? Never, because I know what I'm doing is a righteous cause."
Factions: Sleeping
Remnants: Valheim
Legendary Journey: Heroes & Planeswalkers
Saga: Shards of Rabiah
Legends: The Elder Dragons
Read up on Red Flags & NWO
Prowess stacking.
The issue I perceive here is largely born of the matter of "how many noncreature spells did you cast this turn?" Generally speaking, this will be somewhat easy to track, but what Maro posted about with regards to the issues with prowess, is that the ability for allowing multiple noncreature spells to really boost a creature -- without factoring in the effects of those noncreature spells -- can really warp Limited. Multiple creatures can get bigger from one spell, to name one example, and it rapidly increases the board complexity if multiple noncreature spells are being fired off by the controller of the creatures with prowess. This is largely due to the fact that prowess can repeatedly trigger as it is now. It's part of the reason we are seeing so few prowess creatures outside of Tarkir block.* Changing it to a static +1/+1 yes/no greatly reduces the "board math" for what a creature will end up at, but more importantly it means that Set and Play Design can better influence just how big a Prowess creature can potentially get, by limiting how many instances of prowess it can stack up.
In addition, they could also put in cards explicitly to grant the higher power/toughness (by bestowing more instances of prowess), if they want to give it a little nudge. Right now, they can't, because they have to assume that a given creature with prowess can easily get large due to repeatable triggers. In Constructed, this isn't a difficult thing to accomplish (hi Flood of Recollection!). Sometimes, even in Limited this isn't hard. Imagine if prowess had existed back in Rise of the Eldrazi and/or in Innistrad block, with the Surreal Memoir and Spider Spawning archetypes existing in Limited. How can they possibly balance prowess around any of that? Cards like Monastery Swiftspear basically becomes an alternate win condition for those archetypes in addition to the archetype's function itself. Putting a limit on it allows them to better determine where a creature with prowess exists power wise. Right now, the balancing metric is: "This can potentially be +1/+1 to +5/+5 on any turn." Again, without factoring in the effects of those noncreature spells. And that's just for a french vanilla common.
Preserving most of the functionality.
Most of this was touched on already. Turn it on with a noncreature spell, same as always. It just becomes a matter of how high the creature is allowed to grow. I've already touched on that point, so I'll leave it at that and paste random stuff that kind of illustrates the point of what they could do after, especially if they want to make creatures that get bigger:
EXAMPLE CARDS
Cloudstrike Seeker (Common)
1U
Creature - Djinn Monk
1/1
Flying, prowess (This creature gets +1/+1 if you casted a noncreature spell this turn.)
Noble of the Sky (Uncommon?)
3UU
Creature - Elemental
3/3
Flying
Noble of the Sky has prowess for each other creature with flying you control.
Whenever you cast a noncreature spell, target creature you control gains flying until end of turn.
Lore Acquirer (Uncommon)
1UU
Creature - Human Rogue
2/2
Prowess
Whenever Lore Acquirer deals combat damage to a player, draw a card. Then, discard a card unless you casted a noncreature spell this turn.
Spellfire Elemental (Rare)
3RR
Creature - Elemental
3/3
Spellfire Elemental has prowess for each instant and sorcery card in your graveyard. (It gets +1/+1 for each of those cards in your graveyard if you casted a noncreature spell this turn.)
2R, Exile an instant or sorcery card from your graveyard: Spellfire Elemental deals 2 damage to target player.
PS - I would also like to remind everyone that lifelink stacked with itself (multiple triggers) once upon a time, back in Future Sight through Alara Reborn. It had similar issues for being swingy before it became a static ability.
* Prowess Card Count
- Khans of Tarkir Block: 18 (Khans of Tarkir = 10; Fate Reforged = 8; Dragons of Tarkir = 0)
- Magic Origins: 4
- Kaladesh Block: 1 (Kaladesh = 1; Aether Revolt = 0)
- Amonkhet Block: 5 (Amonkhet = 2; Hour of Devastation = 3)
- Ixalan Block: Zero
Shouldn't there be more than this for an evergreen mechanic that encourages a creature to turn sideways?
Past Ruminations
Links are broken, will fix in near future.
- Kaladesh
- Zendikar
- Rise of the Eldrazi
- Alara Reborn
- Innistrad <- Personal Favorite
- Dark Ascension
- Avacyn Restored
- Theros
- Return to Ravnica
- Tarkir