The enchant line doesn't work, as is once you enchant a permanent it will no longer meet the enchantment qualification and promptly fall off. You need some wonky Animate Dead wording to get the desired effect.
Should blue do this? It animates artifacts just fine, while green animates lands and white animates enchantments, does blue need to spread to all permanents?
It feels weird to give blue a 4CMC 5/5. If it was more hoops to jump through than "sacrifice a land" it would feel ok in blue.
The enchant line doesn't work, as is once you enchant a permanent it will no longer meet the enchantment qualification and promptly fall off. You need some wonky Animate Dead wording to get the desired effect.
Should blue do this? It animates artifacts just fine, while green animates lands and white animates enchantments, does blue need to spread to all permanents?
It feels weird to give blue a 4CMC 5/5. If it was more hoops to jump through than "sacrifice a land" it would feel ok in blue.
I guess when you put it that way, Bant might be more appropriate?
I also added the Animate Dead wording, though I don't know if more would be needed. A simple solution could be to just have it enchant permanent from the start, but I wanted to exclude creatures.
The enchant line doesn't work, as is once you enchant a permanent it will no longer meet the enchantment qualification and promptly fall off. You need some wonky Animate Dead wording to get the desired effect.
Should blue do this? It animates artifacts just fine, while green animates lands and white animates enchantments, does blue need to spread to all permanents?
It feels weird to give blue a 4CMC 5/5. If it was more hoops to jump through than "sacrifice a land" it would feel ok in blue.
I guess when you put it that way, Bant might be more appropriate?
I also added the Animate Dead wording, though I don't know if more would be needed. A simple solution could be to just have it enchant permanent from the start, but I wanted to exclude creatures.
Please no Animate Dead kludges when they're not necessary.
What you're looking for in terms of precedent is Dream Leash - not elegant, but still a lot better.
The enchant line doesn't work, as is once you enchant a permanent it will no longer meet the enchantment qualification and promptly fall off. You need some wonky Animate Dead wording to get the desired effect.
Should blue do this? It animates artifacts just fine, while green animates lands and white animates enchantments, does blue need to spread to all permanents?
It feels weird to give blue a 4CMC 5/5. If it was more hoops to jump through than "sacrifice a land" it would feel ok in blue.
I guess when you put it that way, Bant might be more appropriate?
I also added the Animate Dead wording, though I don't know if more would be needed. A simple solution could be to just have it enchant permanent from the start, but I wanted to exclude creatures.
Please no Animate Dead kludges when they're not necessary.
What you're looking for in terms of precedent is Dream Leash - not elegant, but still a lot better.
Being three colored makes the effect underwhelming. Keeping it as a 5/5 it could reasonably get at least one keyword added; unfortunately there isn't a keyword that is shared within those three colors(the closest would be vigilance, being primary white, distant secondary in green, and fake vigilance via untapping in blue), if you weaken it to 4/4 or 4/5 it could get 2-3 keywords. Or just drop the cost by one, that might be enough.
I'd say let it target creatures, the only thing really holding you back from doing so is the name.
If Ensoul Artifact and Tezzeret's Touch are any indication, it's also the standard way Wizards does these kinds of cards. It certainly avoids the dissonance between the enchant ability and the targeting ability seen here.
I'd say let it target creatures, the only thing really holding you back from doing so is the name.
Pretty much this. Just make it cost 1GU. Not much reason to make it require white. I'd say also give it haste to avoid weird corner cases with lands.
Infuse Vitae | 1GU
Enchantment — Aura (U)
Enchant permanent
Enchanted permanent is a green and blue elemenental creature with base power and toughness 5/5 in addition to its other colors and types and has haste.
Gonna disagree. Animating each different permanent type is commonly assigned to specific colors. Blue gets artifacts, green gets lands, and white gets enchantments. All three can modify creatures' base power and toughness occasionally.
All colors have been able to animate lands, usually in cycles though. If you're tied to the idea of it being 3-color, I'd want to see it make the permanent into something worthy of rare/mythic status in a tri color set. I suppose it should probably doing this anyway since it's hardly a sensible effect to be doing without reason.
Is it worth saying nonplaneswalker to avoid the Gideon problem?
I'm not following your logic there. You think it should just be 1WU?
I'm not attached to it being three colors, it just seems like the most appropriate combination for the range of effects the card covers, that being animation of each of the different permanent types, commonly (not exclusively) divided among the colors as previously noted, plus the ability to override a creature's P/T, which is a green and blue effect for the most part.
An uncommon 5/5 for 3 that seems quite fair in three colors, like Woolly Thoctar with a little extra liability, but more possibilities too.
I don't think a planeswalker restriction is necessary. Animating Planeswalkers is generally useless, and there's basically no Gideon problem that I can think of, animated with the aura he's much worse than if he just animates himself.
I don't think a planeswalker restriction is necessary. Animating Planeswalkers is generally useless, and there's basically no Gideon problem that I can think of, animated with the aura he's much worse than if he just animates himself.
When a planeswalker takes damage, even if it's a creature, loyalty counters are removed.
I don't think a planeswalker restriction is necessary. Animating Planeswalkers is generally useless, and there's basically no Gideon problem that I can think of, animated with the aura he's much worse than if he just animates himself.
When a planeswalker takes damage, even if it's a creature, loyalty counters are removed.
Yes, and that's an issue you want to avoid because why? It's an undesirable condition, thus making "animating planeswalkers...generally useless."
It's an interaction that's not entirely obvious. It's the same reason I want it to grant haste, the same reason Awaken the Ancient grants haste when the earlier Zendikon cycle did not.
If the card is already going to be weird and 3-color creature that sets you up to get 2-for-1'd, it may as well be a splashy rare and can afford more text to smooth out these weird corner interactions. I'm still not sure why the card would want to exist as-is when it's going to enchant a land most of the time. What does turning an artifact or enchantment actually do for you?
What does turning an artifact or enchantment actually do for you?
It depends on the artifact. If it's something like a Darksteel, then you'd have an indestructible 5/5 instead of just a 5/5.
Generally speaking, animating artifacts and enchantments gives you additional bodies which would otherwise just sit there passively if they have no activated abilities.
My point is, it could simply just be a 5/5 creature card rather than turn something else into a creature. Few enchantments actually do anything extra as a creature and doing this is typically very risky. I'm not saying it couldn't get to print, just that it'd be hard to get there without a good reason.
New complication: How does this work with auras? With Equipment, they just fall off whatever they're attached to. Opalescence and Starfield of Nyx explicitly prevent them from affecting auras. The enchant ability will destroy it if they become attached to nothing.
At this point, I think I'm more interested in something simpler:
Vigorvitae | 2GG
Enchantment — Aura (U)
Enchant creature or land
Enchanted permanent is a green elemental creature with base power and toughness 5/5 in addition to its other types.
Enchanted permanent has haste.
This is a 5/5 creature that consumes a land, but in certain situations, you can plop it on your Wind Drake to get in for more damage. Enchanting creatures is really the more interesting situation in my mind because that's where almost all of the creature keywords are.
My point is, it could simply just be a 5/5 creature card rather than turn something else into a creature.
You can slap in on an opponent's permanent. It would turn off most equipment, kills auras, and any kind of permanent (including planeswalkers) become vulnerable to creature removal.
That's well above a mere 5/5.
New complication: How does this work with auras?
303.4d .... An Aura that’s also a creature can’t enchant anything. If this occurs somehow, the Aura becomes unattached, then is put into its owner’s graveyard....
Why don't you just make this a sorcery that does the Awaken thing (for purposes of visual reminder) to the correct set of targets? That cleans up the targeting/enchanting text significantly.
303.4d .... An Aura that’s also a creature can’t enchant anything. If this occurs somehow, the Aura becomes unattached, then is put into its owner’s graveyard....
Crypt Rat isn't spelling it out for you, but look back over what they wrote so far and you will notice that the issue is not "Is there a rule covering this scenario?" There are rules covering attaching this to an Aura, Equipment or planeswalker. But there is also the fact that design involves not just making cards that work under the rules but also make the cards so that they function as their user will intuit.
So every time you force a player to know a new rule to correctly play the card (or predict another player's play of the card) you are making it harder to use. A designer's job though is to make the card easier to use. So suggesting to remove all the undesirable corner-cases is better design.
This even applies to the supposedly beneficial corner cases like "Oh, it also doules as Aura removal." The quality of a design is not measured in how many uses you can come up with by exploiting rules not every player may be aware of, but by how few rules you need to be aware of to not be surprised by any player using the card if they use it in a commonly occuring scenario.
So while "You can use it as Aura removal if you know the rule" is a benefit for the person knowing the rules, as a designer you also need to be aware of "You can decide to use it on your own otherwise useless Aura and experience a bad surprise if you don't know the rule beforehand". As a good designer you will lean towards building safeguards right into the cards to facilitate intended and apparent usage rather than allowing unintended or obscure usage.
Hence Oblivion Ring makes room for Banishing Light on two axes: Both removing the issue of stacking the triggers to exile a permanent indefinitely as well as removing the corner case forcing the controller of the trigger to remove their own permanent.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Planar Chaos was not a mistake neither was it random. You might want to look at it again.
[thread=239793][Game] Level Up - Creature[/thread]
Overall (not just the auras), I disagreed with crypt rat in dismissing the card as a simple creature. It was clearly designed to enchant opponent's stuff, although it's possible the the OP missed it's effects on auras.
I did not design the card, but I'd gladly look for loopholes in any design.
The quality of a design is not measured in how many uses you can come up with by exploiting rules not every player may be aware of, but by how few rules you need to be aware of to not be surprised by any player using the card if they use it in a commonly occuring scenario.
That's your opinion. Wizards creates skill tester cards, cards where the application may not be so obvious.
Also, in critiquing a card, FINDING the corner cases is important. You said it yourself: eliminating corner cases is desirable. But without finding those corner cases first, you can't fix it. What would you have preferred, that no one find out what a card dose?
I personally think the current version with restriction to actual "object" card types takes a good step towards a resonant design. I can't say the choice of keywords and how to handle them is very inspiring. A static haste seems like a good idea since the purpose of haste on these is to make misplays impossible - since you still have to choose between trample and haste in the current version you still need to be careful about summoning sickness - inviting misplays.
Overall (not just the auras), I disagreed with crypt rat in dismissing the card as a simple creature. It was clearly designed to enchant opponent's stuff, although it's possible the the OP missed it's effects on auras.
I do not see things that clearly - if anything the current version of the OP implies otherwise IMO. I'd say it was more not designed to exclude the option, but not primarily to be used on opponent's permanents.
That's your opinion. Wizards creates skill tester cards, cards where the application may not be so obvious.
There is a difference between a not so obvious application (I don't know what do I use it for.) and not so obvious behavior (I don't know how it works in certain commonly occuring cases).
A grand example is the infamous One with Nothing. It's a card with really obvious behavior (So now I discard all cards from my hand), but not so obvious application (Why would I want that?).
My argument is entirely about a designers responsibility to make their creation behave intuitively. This responsibility does not mean you are not supposed to engage a player.
Also, in critiquing a card, FINDING the corner cases is important. You said it yourself: eliminating corner cases is desirable. But without finding those corner cases first, you can't fix it. What would you have preferred, that no one find out what a card dose?
Crypt Rat already pointed out the problem case, so "FINDING" was already done in my eyes. It's your next step of declaring the interaction a feature rather than a bug that is dubious to me.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Planar Chaos was not a mistake neither was it random. You might want to look at it again.
[thread=239793][Game] Level Up - Creature[/thread]
Mana Cost: 1GU
Enchantment - Aura
Enchant creature, artifact or land
Enchanted permanent is a creature with base power and toughness 5/5 in addition to its other types.
Enchanted permanent has haste.
The enchant line doesn't work, as is once you enchant a permanent it will no longer meet the enchantment qualification and promptly fall off. You need some wonky Animate Dead wording to get the desired effect.
Should blue do this? It animates artifacts just fine, while green animates lands and white animates enchantments, does blue need to spread to all permanents?
It feels weird to give blue a 4CMC 5/5. If it was more hoops to jump through than "sacrifice a land" it would feel ok in blue.
I guess when you put it that way, Bant might be more appropriate?
I also added the Animate Dead wording, though I don't know if more would be needed. A simple solution could be to just have it enchant permanent from the start, but I wanted to exclude creatures.
Please no Animate Dead kludges when they're not necessary.
What you're looking for in terms of precedent is Dream Leash - not elegant, but still a lot better.
I̟̥͍̠ͅn̩͉̣͍̬͚ͅ ̬̬͖t̯̹̞̺͖͓̯̤h̘͍̬e͙̯͈̖̼̮ ̭̬f̺̲̲̪i͙͉̟̩̰r̪̝͚͈̝̥͍̝̲s̼̻͇̘̳͔ͅt̲̺̳̗̜̪̙ ̳̺̥̻͚̗ͅm̜̜̟̰͈͓͎͇o̝̖̮̝͇m̯̻̞̼̫̗͓̤e̩̯̬̮̩n͎̱̪̲̹͖t͇̖s̰̮ͅ,̤̲͙̻̭̻̯̹̰ ̖t̫̙̺̯͖͚̯ͅh͙̯̦̳̗̰̟e͖̪͉̼̯ ̪͕g̞̣͔a̗̦t̬̬͓͙̫̖̭̻e̩̻̯ ̜̖̦̖̤̭͙̬t̞̹̥̪͎͉ͅo͕͚͍͇̲͇͓̺ ̭̬͙͈̣̻t͈͍͙͓̫̖͙̩h̪̬̖̙e̗͈ ̗̬̟̞̺̤͉̯ͅa̦̯͚̙̜̮f͉͙̲̣̞̼t̪̤̞̣͚e̲͉̳̥r͇̪̙͚͓l̥̞̞͎̹̯̹ͅi͓̬f̮̥̬̞͈ͅe͎ ̟̩̤̳̠̯̩̯o̮̘̲p̟͚̣̞͉͓e͍̩̣n͔̼͕͚̜e̬̱d̼̘͎̖̹͍̮̠,͖̺̭̱̮ ̣̲͖̬̪̭̥a̪͚n̟̲̝̤̤̞̗d̘̱̗͇̮͕̳͕͔ ͖̞͉͎t̹̙͎h̰̱͉̗e̪̞̱̝̹̩ͅ ̠̱̩̭̦p̯̙e͓o̳͚̰̯̺̱̰͔̘p̬͎̱̣̼̩͇l̗̟̖͚̠e̱͉͔̱̦̬̟̙ ̖͚̪͔̼̦w̺̖̤̱e͖̗̻̦͓̖̘̜r̭̥e͔̹̫̱͕̦̰͕ ̗͔̠p̠̗͍͍̱̳̠r̰͔͎̰o͉̥͓̰͚̥s̟͚̹̱͔̣t͉̙̳̖͖̪̮r̥̘̥͙̹a͉̟̫̟̳̠̟̭t͈̜̰͈͎e̞̣̭̲̬ ͚̗̯̟͙i͍͖̰̘̦͖͉ṇ̮̻̯̦̲̩͍ ̦̮͚̫̤t͉͖̫͕ͅͅh͙̮̻̘̣̮̼e͕̺ ͙l͕̠͎̰̥i̲͓͉̲g̫̳̟͈͇̖h̠̦̖t͓̯͎̗ ̳̪̘̟̙̩̦o̫̲f̙͔̰̙̠ ̹̪̗͇̯t͖̼̼͉͖̬h̹͇̩e͚̖̺̤͉̹͕̪ ͚͓̭̝̺G͎̗̯̩o̫̯̮̟̮̳̘d̜̲͙̠-̩̳̯̲̗̜P̹̘̥͉̝h͍͈̗̖̝ͅa͍̗̮̼̗r̜̖͇̙̺a̭̺͔̞̳͈o̪̣͓̯̬͙̯̰̗h̖̦͈̥̯͔.͇̣̙̝
Yes, that is indeed a lot better. Thanks.
How does this affect manlands? How big will they be when their abilties are activated?edit: nvm, found the answer. Mishra's factory becomes a 2/2/
"Sometimes, the situation is outracing a threat, sometimes it's ignoring it, and sometimes it involves sideboarding in 4x Hope//Pray." --Doug Linn
If Ensoul Artifact and Tezzeret's Touch are any indication, it's also the standard way Wizards does these kinds of cards. It certainly avoids the dissonance between the enchant ability and the targeting ability seen here.
"Enchant non-creature permanent"
Because once it becomes a creature, the enchantment falls off.
"Sometimes, the situation is outracing a threat, sometimes it's ignoring it, and sometimes it involves sideboarding in 4x Hope//Pray." --Doug Linn
Infuse Vitae | 1GU
Enchantment — Aura (U)
Enchant permanent
Enchanted permanent is a green and blue elemenental creature with base power and toughness 5/5 in addition to its other colors and types and has haste.
Older Magic as a Board Game: Panglacial Wurm , Mill
Is it worth saying nonplaneswalker to avoid the Gideon problem?
Older Magic as a Board Game: Panglacial Wurm , Mill
I'm not attached to it being three colors, it just seems like the most appropriate combination for the range of effects the card covers, that being animation of each of the different permanent types, commonly (not exclusively) divided among the colors as previously noted, plus the ability to override a creature's P/T, which is a green and blue effect for the most part.
An uncommon 5/5 for 3 that seems quite fair in three colors, like Woolly Thoctar with a little extra liability, but more possibilities too.
I don't think a planeswalker restriction is necessary. Animating Planeswalkers is generally useless, and there's basically no Gideon problem that I can think of, animated with the aura he's much worse than if he just animates himself.
Older Magic as a Board Game: Panglacial Wurm , Mill
Yes, and that's an issue you want to avoid because why? It's an undesirable condition, thus making "animating planeswalkers...generally useless."
If the card is already going to be weird and 3-color creature that sets you up to get 2-for-1'd, it may as well be a splashy rare and can afford more text to smooth out these weird corner interactions. I'm still not sure why the card would want to exist as-is when it's going to enchant a land most of the time. What does turning an artifact or enchantment actually do for you?
Older Magic as a Board Game: Panglacial Wurm , Mill
It depends on the artifact. If it's something like a Darksteel, then you'd have an indestructible 5/5 instead of just a 5/5.
Generally speaking, animating artifacts and enchantments gives you additional bodies which would otherwise just sit there passively if they have no activated abilities.
New complication: How does this work with auras? With Equipment, they just fall off whatever they're attached to. Opalescence and Starfield of Nyx explicitly prevent them from affecting auras. The enchant ability will destroy it if they become attached to nothing.
At this point, I think I'm more interested in something simpler:
Enchantment — Aura (U)
Enchant creature or land
Enchanted permanent is a green elemental creature with base power and toughness 5/5 in addition to its other types.
Enchanted permanent has haste.
This is a 5/5 creature that consumes a land, but in certain situations, you can plop it on your Wind Drake to get in for more damage. Enchanting creatures is really the more interesting situation in my mind because that's where almost all of the creature keywords are.
Older Magic as a Board Game: Panglacial Wurm , Mill
You can slap in on an opponent's permanent. It would turn off most equipment, kills auras, and any kind of permanent (including planeswalkers) become vulnerable to creature removal.
That's well above a mere 5/5.
303.4d .... An Aura that’s also a creature can’t enchant anything. If this occurs somehow, the Aura becomes unattached, then is put into its owner’s graveyard....
"Sometimes, the situation is outracing a threat, sometimes it's ignoring it, and sometimes it involves sideboarding in 4x Hope//Pray." --Doug Linn
Crypt Rat isn't spelling it out for you, but look back over what they wrote so far and you will notice that the issue is not "Is there a rule covering this scenario?" There are rules covering attaching this to an Aura, Equipment or planeswalker. But there is also the fact that design involves not just making cards that work under the rules but also make the cards so that they function as their user will intuit.
So every time you force a player to know a new rule to correctly play the card (or predict another player's play of the card) you are making it harder to use. A designer's job though is to make the card easier to use. So suggesting to remove all the undesirable corner-cases is better design.
This even applies to the supposedly beneficial corner cases like "Oh, it also doules as Aura removal." The quality of a design is not measured in how many uses you can come up with by exploiting rules not every player may be aware of, but by how few rules you need to be aware of to not be surprised by any player using the card if they use it in a commonly occuring scenario.
So while "You can use it as Aura removal if you know the rule" is a benefit for the person knowing the rules, as a designer you also need to be aware of "You can decide to use it on your own otherwise useless Aura and experience a bad surprise if you don't know the rule beforehand". As a good designer you will lean towards building safeguards right into the cards to facilitate intended and apparent usage rather than allowing unintended or obscure usage.
Hence Oblivion Ring makes room for Banishing Light on two axes: Both removing the issue of stacking the triggers to exile a permanent indefinitely as well as removing the corner case forcing the controller of the trigger to remove their own permanent.
Finally a good white villain quote: "So, do I ever re-evaluate my life choices? Never, because I know what I'm doing is a righteous cause."
Factions: Sleeping
Remnants: Valheim
Legendary Journey: Heroes & Planeswalkers
Saga: Shards of Rabiah
Legends: The Elder Dragons
Read up on Red Flags & NWO
I did not design the card, but I'd gladly look for loopholes in any design.
That's your opinion. Wizards creates skill tester cards, cards where the application may not be so obvious.
Also, in critiquing a card, FINDING the corner cases is important. You said it yourself: eliminating corner cases is desirable. But without finding those corner cases first, you can't fix it. What would you have preferred, that no one find out what a card dose?
"Sometimes, the situation is outracing a threat, sometimes it's ignoring it, and sometimes it involves sideboarding in 4x Hope//Pray." --Doug Linn
I do not see things that clearly - if anything the current version of the OP implies otherwise IMO. I'd say it was more not designed to exclude the option, but not primarily to be used on opponent's permanents.
There is a difference between a not so obvious application (I don't know what do I use it for.) and not so obvious behavior (I don't know how it works in certain commonly occuring cases).
A grand example is the infamous One with Nothing. It's a card with really obvious behavior (So now I discard all cards from my hand), but not so obvious application (Why would I want that?).
My argument is entirely about a designers responsibility to make their creation behave intuitively. This responsibility does not mean you are not supposed to engage a player.
Crypt Rat already pointed out the problem case, so "FINDING" was already done in my eyes. It's your next step of declaring the interaction a feature rather than a bug that is dubious to me.
Finally a good white villain quote: "So, do I ever re-evaluate my life choices? Never, because I know what I'm doing is a righteous cause."
Factions: Sleeping
Remnants: Valheim
Legendary Journey: Heroes & Planeswalkers
Saga: Shards of Rabiah
Legends: The Elder Dragons
Read up on Red Flags & NWO