So a few months ago I had went to work creating the Four Horsemen for a "for fun" EDH deck. Grated to run all four i had to also make a custom general and well... chaos and being incredibly broken issues ensued. So I changed the general, which allowed me to search for all 4 (for WWBBRRGG) from any zone. (Hand, library, graveyard and exile) I kept teh same idea s the deck is meant to use these Legendary creatures, but dumbed down the general so I can only search for one. (I am also thinking of adding a mechanic that allows creatures put onto teh battlefield this way can deal damage as though it was commander damage)
Now that said, the main basis of thsi thread is to discuss the Horsemen themselves, Conqest, War, Famine, Death. I will state now that i used the Titans (Such as sun titan) as a skeleton. 4WW, 6/6, Keyword and ability on attack. Then I added Flanking to each of them to represent the horse. (As horsemanship is broken beyond belief, and flanking is kind of a think for horse-riders in terms of MTG) I felt since they were legendary it was still fair. But then i dumbed down their ability. It only activates when they attack and only the first time they attack each turn. (The reason for this is due to War, which you will see soon)
Images for the artwork for the cards is a quick google search and Deviantart. The artist is theDURRRRIAN (Credit is given on the card.)
(Also keep i mind these cards are designed for EDH, not other formats)
Conquest, the Horseman
Originally Conquest was just about controlling creatures, but i quickly realized you can also control territories ad objects. So i changed it to permanent. Granted it can be extremely powerful, but it can also be very weak if your opponent does not have much to offer up. (At the same time, if they don't have much to offer, you are probably going to win anyway) His ability is vigilance as it is the very first white keyword i think of, and I feel it works great with him. (in terms of flavor)
War, the Horseman
War is the one that was the most powerful and was dumbed down immensely. He no longer has double strike which the original had, and he no longer grants double strike. I removed the "only knights get an additional attack phase" and changed it to the attacking creatures. This is to prevent "T" abilities form going off multiple times. He is merely a shell of what he once was but at the same time, far more balanced in my opinion. I gave him first strike just to prevent him from having haste. (gives you opponent a chance to react before hell breaks loose, but you can also use card to give them haste. I figured give them all haste or give none haste.)
Famine, the Horseman
Most likely the most powerful of the four. Giving him a forgotten keyword, Wither. (now infect was a thought, but i felt that would be better suited for pestilence which i did not make (if I did it would have been blue... i might later make it, just to finish the color pie) Famine represent starvation and thus Withering away (always for flavor) The ability was tough to come up with in order to make them still have the same basis "Fist time they attack" and felt that a mas wither would suffice. Now while it is not -6 it does weaken the opponent's creatures by 1. Not a huge decrease but eventually it can add up. Though chances are you may not always be focusing the same guy, if you face a guy that as a board of 1/1s, he is scary, for now, but then you may have to focus on another guy since the 1/1s are now gone. Not much else to say other than he is good.
Death, the Horseman
What can I say, Death touch for a Black creature. Flanking like the other 3. And kills stuff. Was pretty boring so i added a little something. Your Avacyn is no longer immune to Death. (pun intended) I felt in order to really make Death a creature they would want to deal with, killing things is something she should be good at, regardless of indestructibility or not. No cards (that I am aware of) remove indestructible and kill in the same breath. Some do one or the other , but not both. This makes her quite a force to be reckoned with against those who like to have walls of indestructible creatures. (or that one guy who runs Avacyn, angel of hope as his general) Or anyone who has a Blightseel Colossus yes I enjoy killing big things and I like killing this that "can't be killed" even more.
So those are the four i have. in the long run, it is relatively a simple design. Sure they have some aspects that are better or less than the titans they are based on. They may have a better ability but a lesser keyword or better keyword but lesser ability *Cough* Primeval titan *cough* but overall, i feel they are balanced.
If I were to build this deck i would want to go knight tribal, but unfortunately, Knights are not a great tribe. They may ed up being teh only knights which makes my General (Which fetches a knight) strictly eat to get these four. It also realy wnats me to add Pestilence to do 2 things,
1) Add blue to finish the color pie
2) Make adding blue justified rather than just splashing cause you can.
Granted Adding pestilence would break the "FOUR horsemen"
The thing that stands out to me is that Death, as worded, doesn't do what you want it to do. Namely, having reminder text is not the same as rules text. Reminder text is just there to explain overall rules, not things specific to the card. If you want it to remove Indestructible, you need to call that out in the rules text like this:
When ~ attacks for the first time each turn, target creature an opponent controls loses Indestructible until end of turn. Then, destroy that creature.
However, it is probably just easier to handle it in a way that is already supported by the rules by doing this:
When ~ attacks for the first time each turn, target creature an opponent controls gets -0/-X where X is its toughness.
War should say "Combat Phase" not "Attack Phase".
Also, based on current templating, you should spell out each creature's name on the card. So, instead of "When Death attacks for the first time..." it should be "When Death, the Horseman attacks for the first time...". The only exceptions I know of are the Origins transform Walkers and maybe something where they did it to save space. Not really a huge issue, but it does go against current templating.
As to the cards themselves, they seem balanced enough though Famine seems to be the most powerful or devastating as it can easily hinder your opponent's entire board even more so than Death can. I am not sure it is a problem unless there are a bunch of token producers in the game in which case Famine can shut them down hard.
If you're having trouble with a general to lead them, why not make all of them your general? Using an ability to partner, you either have all of them or only one. "Four Horsemen (You can have four commanders if all have Four Horsemen.)" Legendary creatures refer to themselves by their whole name the first time they are mentioned in their text. You have significant powered up the abilities compared to the titan cycle, making them all undercosted. It would be better to reduce some of them in size and increase the cost of the others.
Conquest, isn't the right color and broken as heck. This effect is primary blue, secondary black. None of the other horsemen come close to this strong. Permanently stealing cards is one of the most powerful effects, to get it repeatedly I would cost this at least 5UUU.
War, the ability is reasonable, the body is huge for the effect. Aurelia, the Warleader is powerful but far from broken. Because you have kept haste off them they might be far weaker than you are giving them credit.
Famine, the most unimpressive looking ability, like War its the sheer size of the body that actually makes this good. Silumgar, the Drifting Death is good because you can get multiple triggers at once, and its a protected body. Being permanent definitely make it stronger, but its the weakest of all your horsemen.
Famine, this ability doesn't work as worded. "When ~ attacks the first time each turn, until end of turn creatures defending player control lose regenerate and indestructible and can't have or gain regenerate and indestructible. Destroy a creature of your choice defending play controls." This will make sure the specific creature dies and that the rest of the team is susceptible, with death so close none should be safe. It also gets through Hexproof, Shroud and Protection, while not necessary, it felt right that no one should be safe from death and the ability could stand to be a bit stronger when compared to the other horsemen. Should probably be costed at 5BB.
The .ajn reason i kept them at wbat tbey are (in terms of cost and body size) js due to seeing titans come into play. Get their effect. Then swing and get their effect. And in some decks. Swing again and again. This specifically makes it only trigger once. (Without a blink combo in effect)
I will reword death.
While i know conquests ability is blue. I want to keep it white. Besides not all creatures in the right colors (look at ruhan. He is not naya)
I also had a secondary effect with cobquest in wbich he gets a counter as per the effect. A d you may only steal somethjng wkth cmc equal or less. So you progress i to getti g better stuff as yku "conquer more"
White horseman should allow the defending player to decide which permanent, in the style of Evangelize. Stealing any permanent of your choice is powerful and feelbad, not what you want for a custom card.
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EDH RRGrenzo plays your deck, GGYeva's mono green control, WW9-tails trys desperately for monowhite not to suck RWBUTymna and Kraum's saboteur tribal, UWG Kestia's Enchantress Aggro, RUB Jeleva casts big dumb spells, RGB Vaevictis' big critters can kill your critters hard
White horseman should allow the defending player to decide which permanent, in the style of Evangelize. Stealing any permanent of your choice is powerful and feelbad, not what you want for a custom card.
First, the titans were a very pushed cycle to try and make 6CMC creatures highly playable, they succeeded, but they are the upper bound of what should be compared against not a benchmark. If you are comparing your cards against the Titans + additional cards then of course your cards are going to seem more balanced than they actually are. If you're going to look at the most broken interactions of the Titans then you have to look at the most broken interactions for your cards, and your cards come out leagues ahead in this scenario.
Don't confuse a card not representing all of its colors(Ruhan of the Fomori) and a card using effects that aren't in its color(Evangelize and Conquest). No matter how you change the stealing mechanic if its still stealing then it isn't White. An acceptable ability for white would be exiling a permanent on attack until Conquest leaves play. You are still conquering them(removing them from opponents control) but when your Conquer leaves play they get their stuff back. The ability becomes similar to Death's but the difference of effecting permanents vs only creatures may be enough of a difference to make them play differently. If you have to keep the cycle WGRB and want to keep the stealing ability, then swap Black and White, the effects already line up in color as long as you exile on Death instead of destroy, you won't need the indestructible removal either.
I may switxh it to exile. And fix tbe wordkng on death.
The .ajn reason co quest white is due to tbe white horse
Famine should be Black then, shouldn't it?
Quote from Revelations 6:5-6 »
5 And when he had opened the third seal, I heard the third beast say, Come and see. And I beheld, and lo a black horse; and he that sat on him had a pair of balances in his hand. 6 And I heard a voice in the midst of the four beasts say, A measure of wheat for a penny, and three measures of barley for a penny; and see thou hurt not the oil and the wine.
Strangely, this means that Death should be green, not black. The Greek word used to describe the fourth horseman's steed is chloros, which can either mean ashen or green.
I may switxh it to exile. And fix tbe wordkng on death.
The .ajn reason co quest white is due to tbe white horse
Famine should be Black then, shouldn't it?
Quote from Revelations 6:5-6 »
5 And when he had opened the third seal, I heard the third beast say, Come and see. And I beheld, and lo a black horse; and he that sat on him had a pair of balances in his hand. 6 And I heard a voice in the midst of the four beasts say, A measure of wheat for a penny, and three measures of barley for a penny; and see thou hurt not the oil and the wine.
Strangely, this means that Death should be green, not black. The Greek word used to describe the fourth horseman's steed is chloros, which can either mean ashen or green.
that i the only reason i made conquest white the rest were not spent on that. War is red and works, Death is Black, (I mean come on the mana symbol for black is a skull.) Famine worked best with green since Blue is more about knowledge where green is about growth. While Famine is the exact opposite of growth, green and black both had teh wither mechanic, and personally, I would rather have 4 different colors rather than 1-1-2
Okay so i reworded Death, I changed War from First strike to haste, and I changed Conquests ability from steal to exile (until he leaves)
The until he leaves is still happening but I am curious if maybe i should still keep it as steal. Sure it may not be "white" but it still feels like an ability that could work and be flavorful for the creature.
also i used the four horseman ability User_938036 suggested.
Now that said, the main basis of thsi thread is to discuss the Horsemen themselves, Conqest, War, Famine, Death. I will state now that i used the Titans (Such as sun titan) as a skeleton. 4WW, 6/6, Keyword and ability on attack. Then I added Flanking to each of them to represent the horse. (As horsemanship is broken beyond belief, and flanking is kind of a think for horse-riders in terms of MTG) I felt since they were legendary it was still fair. But then i dumbed down their ability. It only activates when they attack and only the first time they attack each turn. (The reason for this is due to War, which you will see soon)
Images for the artwork for the cards is a quick google search and Deviantart. The artist is theDURRRRIAN (Credit is given on the card.)
(Also keep i mind these cards are designed for EDH, not other formats)
Conquest, the Horseman
Originally Conquest was just about controlling creatures, but i quickly realized you can also control territories ad objects. So i changed it to permanent. Granted it can be extremely powerful, but it can also be very weak if your opponent does not have much to offer up. (At the same time, if they don't have much to offer, you are probably going to win anyway) His ability is vigilance as it is the very first white keyword i think of, and I feel it works great with him. (in terms of flavor)
War is the one that was the most powerful and was dumbed down immensely. He no longer has double strike which the original had, and he no longer grants double strike. I removed the "only knights get an additional attack phase" and changed it to the attacking creatures. This is to prevent "T" abilities form going off multiple times. He is merely a shell of what he once was but at the same time, far more balanced in my opinion. I gave him first strike just to prevent him from having haste. (gives you opponent a chance to react before hell breaks loose, but you can also use card to give them haste. I figured give them all haste or give none haste.)
Famine, the Horseman
Most likely the most powerful of the four. Giving him a forgotten keyword, Wither. (now infect was a thought, but i felt that would be better suited for pestilence which i did not make (if I did it would have been blue... i might later make it, just to finish the color pie) Famine represent starvation and thus Withering away (always for flavor) The ability was tough to come up with in order to make them still have the same basis "Fist time they attack" and felt that a mas wither would suffice. Now while it is not -6 it does weaken the opponent's creatures by 1. Not a huge decrease but eventually it can add up. Though chances are you may not always be focusing the same guy, if you face a guy that as a board of 1/1s, he is scary, for now, but then you may have to focus on another guy since the 1/1s are now gone. Not much else to say other than he is good.
What can I say, Death touch for a Black creature. Flanking like the other 3. And kills stuff. Was pretty boring so i added a little something. Your Avacyn is no longer immune to Death. (pun intended) I felt in order to really make Death a creature they would want to deal with, killing things is something she should be good at, regardless of indestructibility or not. No cards (that I am aware of) remove indestructible and kill in the same breath. Some do one or the other , but not both. This makes her quite a force to be reckoned with against those who like to have walls of indestructible creatures. (or that one guy who runs Avacyn, angel of hope as his general) Or anyone who has a Blightseel Colossus yes I enjoy killing big things and I like killing this that "can't be killed" even more.
So those are the four i have. in the long run, it is relatively a simple design. Sure they have some aspects that are better or less than the titans they are based on. They may have a better ability but a lesser keyword or better keyword but lesser ability *Cough* Primeval titan *cough* but overall, i feel they are balanced.
If I were to build this deck i would want to go knight tribal, but unfortunately, Knights are not a great tribe. They may ed up being teh only knights which makes my General (Which fetches a knight) strictly eat to get these four. It also realy wnats me to add Pestilence to do 2 things,
1) Add blue to finish the color pie
2) Make adding blue justified rather than just splashing cause you can.
Granted Adding pestilence would break the "FOUR horsemen"
So thoughts?
UB Vela the Night-Clad BUDecklist
WBG Ghave, Guru of Spores GBW
WUBRGThe Ur-DragonWUBRGDecklist
However, it is probably just easier to handle it in a way that is already supported by the rules by doing this:
War should say "Combat Phase" not "Attack Phase".
Also, based on current templating, you should spell out each creature's name on the card. So, instead of "When Death attacks for the first time..." it should be "When Death, the Horseman attacks for the first time...". The only exceptions I know of are the Origins transform Walkers and maybe something where they did it to save space. Not really a huge issue, but it does go against current templating.
As to the cards themselves, they seem balanced enough though Famine seems to be the most powerful or devastating as it can easily hinder your opponent's entire board even more so than Death can. I am not sure it is a problem unless there are a bunch of token producers in the game in which case Famine can shut them down hard.
Conquest, isn't the right color and broken as heck. This effect is primary blue, secondary black. None of the other horsemen come close to this strong. Permanently stealing cards is one of the most powerful effects, to get it repeatedly I would cost this at least 5UUU.
War, the ability is reasonable, the body is huge for the effect. Aurelia, the Warleader is powerful but far from broken. Because you have kept haste off them they might be far weaker than you are giving them credit.
Famine, the most unimpressive looking ability, like War its the sheer size of the body that actually makes this good. Silumgar, the Drifting Death is good because you can get multiple triggers at once, and its a protected body. Being permanent definitely make it stronger, but its the weakest of all your horsemen.
Famine, this ability doesn't work as worded. "When ~ attacks the first time each turn, until end of turn creatures defending player control lose regenerate and indestructible and can't have or gain regenerate and indestructible. Destroy a creature of your choice defending play controls." This will make sure the specific creature dies and that the rest of the team is susceptible, with death so close none should be safe. It also gets through Hexproof, Shroud and Protection, while not necessary, it felt right that no one should be safe from death and the ability could stand to be a bit stronger when compared to the other horsemen. Should probably be costed at 5BB.
I will reword death.
While i know conquests ability is blue. I want to keep it white. Besides not all creatures in the right colors (look at ruhan. He is not naya)
I also had a secondary effect with cobquest in wbich he gets a counter as per the effect. A d you may only steal somethjng wkth cmc equal or less. So you progress i to getti g better stuff as yku "conquer more"
For war. Remove first strike a d give it haste?
UB Vela the Night-Clad BUDecklist
WBG Ghave, Guru of Spores GBW
WUBRGThe Ur-DragonWUBRGDecklist
RRGrenzo plays your deck, GGYeva's mono green control, WW9-tails trys desperately for monowhite not to suck
RWBUTymna and Kraum's saboteur tribal, UWG Kestia's Enchantress Aggro, RUB Jeleva casts big dumb spells, RGB Vaevictis' big critters can kill your critters hard
Arena Standard
UUUU Tempo, since before it was cool
Various Wx decks running Fountain of Renewal and Day of Glory
Anything I can cram Chaos Wand in to
Good idea. I will do that.
UB Vela the Night-Clad BUDecklist
WBG Ghave, Guru of Spores GBW
WUBRGThe Ur-DragonWUBRGDecklist
Don't confuse a card not representing all of its colors(Ruhan of the Fomori) and a card using effects that aren't in its color(Evangelize and Conquest). No matter how you change the stealing mechanic if its still stealing then it isn't White. An acceptable ability for white would be exiling a permanent on attack until Conquest leaves play. You are still conquering them(removing them from opponents control) but when your Conquer leaves play they get their stuff back. The ability becomes similar to Death's but the difference of effecting permanents vs only creatures may be enough of a difference to make them play differently. If you have to keep the cycle WGRB and want to keep the stealing ability, then swap Black and White, the effects already line up in color as long as you exile on Death instead of destroy, you won't need the indestructible removal either.
The .ajn reason co quest white is due to tbe white horse
UB Vela the Night-Clad BUDecklist
WBG Ghave, Guru of Spores GBW
WUBRGThe Ur-DragonWUBRGDecklist
Famine should be Black then, shouldn't it?
Strangely, this means that Death should be green, not black. The Greek word used to describe the fourth horseman's steed is chloros, which can either mean ashen or green.
UB Vela the Night-Clad BUDecklist
WBG Ghave, Guru of Spores GBW
WUBRGThe Ur-DragonWUBRGDecklist
The until he leaves is still happening but I am curious if maybe i should still keep it as steal. Sure it may not be "white" but it still feels like an ability that could work and be flavorful for the creature.
also i used the four horseman ability User_938036 suggested.
UB Vela the Night-Clad BUDecklist
WBG Ghave, Guru of Spores GBW
WUBRGThe Ur-DragonWUBRGDecklist