The original Elder Dragons (i.e. Nicol Bolas) were among some of the most powerful characters in magic, rivaling even Planeswalkers. Many know of Nicol Bolas, Planeswalker; his betrayal and destruction of the other Elder Dragons, and his rise to Planeswalker status. Bolas has remained an iconic and powerful character even to this day. As for the other Dragons, Chromium, Arcades Sabboth, Palladia-Mors, and Vaevictus Asmadi, they remain iconic in the lore, but as to this day their power levels are diminished.
With Commander in mind, my question is this: How could these Iconic Elder Dragons be remade into new, powerful Legends to represent their true strength?
Questions
- What were the actual powers of the original five Elder Dragons? Their original cards have rather weak effects in today's standing, and are all rather combat oriented. I have read up on some of the lore to see if I could find what each dragon could do (i.e. magical powers, etc) but haven't found much unique information regarding it.
- Should they have similar mana costs to their old effects?
- How could each be redesigned to play into the Reworked color pie?
My Design in Progress
What I've been working on is remaking them. So far, I've taken the old cards and streamlined them into a new form. Here is what I have so far:
Old Card:
Chromium2WWUUBB
Legendary Creature - Elder Dragon
Flying Rampage 2 (Whenever this creature becomes blocked, it gets +2/+2 until end of turn for each creature blocking it beyond the first.) At the beginning of your upkeep, sacrifice Chromium unless you pay WUB.
7/7
Here is my first attempt at Chromium. I don't know a lot about what he should do, but I did base some of his effects off what I imagine a Chrome-Skinned Elder Dragon might do.
Elder ChromiumWWUUBB
Legendary Creature - Elder Dragon (Mythic)
Flying
Whenever you or a permanent you control becomes the target or a spell or ability an opponent controls, you may change the targets of that spell or ability to another target.
[New Activated Ability]
7/7
I liked the idea of the "Chrome" skin being like a mirror or reflective surface. I started thinking of cards that redirect spells and abilities, like Quicksilver Dragon, and cards that act as a "Rattlesnake" to deter your opponents from targeting you and your stuff, like Martyr's Bond. As is, the card seems really powerful, and I haven't even given it a secondary effect. But it's a work in progress!
I invite all of you to offer up suggestions as well as help discuss what these dragons should do in their remastered forms. I think we will create some interesting design ideas!
I'd rather see these guys get planeswalker cards, but that's just me. It would still be fun to take a crack at designing these guys with modern design philosophy.
Before I get into it, I'm gonna say up front that these are gonna end up being very win-more and oppressive, just like Bolas is. I consider that the goal, as that takes the popularity and power of Bolas and applies it to the rest of the Elder Dragons. Also, I'm completely eyeballing the mana costs, so I could be completely off.
Now.
I don't think there really is anything to know about what the dragons can actually do, other than they were all about as powerful as Bolas. Given that, I'd start with his card and build from that design.
First, I think cutting the upkeep cost is the safest bet here.
Second, Giving all of the dragons a really powerful and splashy "saboteur" ability seems like the best bet for this cycle.
And third, additional minor abilities for protection, evasion, or just a little extra value will help top these guys off. At this point, we want to make sure they aren't too good, or that they're costed sufficiently. I think sticking with double mana symbols in each color seems safe too.
And finally, as to what effects we choose for each dragon, since we have nothing concrete to go on, lets just stick within their colors and pick whatever fits best on a dragon.
Here's my take on Chromium:
ChromiumWWUUBB
Legendary Elder Dragon
Flying
Whenever ~ deals combat damage to a player, double your life total.
Pay half your life rounded down: ~ gains hexproof until end of turn.
5/5
Life gain and hexproof are in Esper colors, and the way the abilities tie together balance the card out, I think. Also, using hexproof plays up the chrome-skinned aspect of Chromium, so I think this works quite well.
I also ended up compromising on the p/t to make it a little less oppressive, as 7/7 is gonna be pretty hard to deal with when he can gain hexproof whenever he needs. This way, there's a higher chance he could be destroyed in combat, which is safer.
Nicol Bolas1UUBBRR
Legendary Elder Dragon
Flying
Whenever ~ deals combat damage to a player, that player discards his or her hand.
At the beginning of each opponent's upkeep, you may have that player draw a card. If you do, target creature that player controls attacks this turn if able.
7/7
Nicol Bolas is where we started, so I think sticking with his signature effect is good. Costing him at 7 and keeping his p/t at 7/7 plays inyo his 7s theme. His goad ability plays off of his discard ability and plays up his manipulative personality. It also doubles as extra evasion.
Next is Vaevictus Asmadi. We don't really know that much, other than this guy loves to breathe fire. That could work as the "little extra" ability, so that means we just need a splashy saboteur ability. Something that scales with the amount of damage being dealt would work nicely with the fire-breathing, so how about this:
Vaevictus Asmadi2BBRRGG
Legendary Elder Dragon
Flying, trample
Whenever ~ deals combat damage to a player, that player sacrifices that many permanents. BRG: ~ gets +3/+0 until end of turn.
3/7
Trample and a large cost makes this a little more green. The fire-breathing is red, and thr sac ability is black. The fire-breathing being fixed to 3-for-3 makes it a little less abusable, but still very impactful. The low power keeps the sac ability in check and encourages the fire-breathing. I'm unsure about the power level, but the same can be said for all the others too.
Palladia-Mors is kind of problematic in that it's basically a french-vanilla beater, so there isn't a lot to go on. So let's try this:
Palladia-Mors1RRGGWW
Legendary Elder Dragon
Flying, first strike, trample
Whenever ~ deals combat damage to a player, put that many +1/+1 counters on target creature.
7/7
The trample is extra relevant with the Necropolis Regent ability. The first strike and the "target creature" make this guy a bit more versatile in that it can hit the opponent, then stack its counters on another attacking creature before that one hits, getting in for a tone of extra damage.
Finally, Arcades Sabboth. He's definitely more defensive, so giving him a saboteur ability is tricky.
Arcades Sabboth2GGWWUU
Legendary Elder Dragon
Flying, vigilance
Whenever ~ deals combat damage to a player, that player skips his or her next untap step. Untap all permanents you control.
4/7
I chose to play around with untapping, as that's sort of Sabboth's thing. Forcing the opponent to skip their untap step keeps them on their back, which can be really oppressive, so I lowered the power to 4 rather than seven, giving the opponent more chances to recover. Untapping your stuff gives you a strong defense, as does giving Sabboth vigilance. For the most part, Sabboth is lacking the "little extra" ability, but that's really just because he doesn't need it. He's probably broken as-is.
I like your preliminary idea for a new Chromium. Reflecting spells seems like a nice flavorful take. Mechanically I think that having this as a static ability is making for less interesting gameply than you might hope for - it's basically going to work as hexproof unless there is no alternate target on the battlefield. Quicksilver Dragon's variant is inherently more interesting since it is activated and involves a decision when to reflect.
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():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Planar Chaos was not a mistake neither was it random. You might want to look at it again.
[thread=239793][Game] Level Up - Creature[/thread]
New Chromium2WWUUBB
Legendary Creature - Elder Dragon
Upkeep WUB
Flying, Rampage 2, Menace, Haste, Lifelink U: Exile New Chromium, then return it to the battlefield at the end of turn.
7/7
I feel you should stick somewhat close to the originals (although that might be hard since I always see rampage as (R/G), and that's the exact two colors Chromium doesn't have :P), so Chromium should do something when blocked, for example.
You should remain close to what the characters are capable of in the lore, not necessarily what the original card does, and I do not think we have significant information on the original elder dragons aside from Bolas (though I admit I have not done research into them in quite some time). Even then, the effect should be appropriate for the colors, and Chromium is Blue centered. Your proposed 'edict' effect is not really appropriate.
Here is my first attempt at Chromium. I don't know a lot about what he should do, but I did base some of his effects off what I imagine a Chrome-Skinned Elder Dragon might do.
Elder ChromiumWWUUBB
Legendary Creature - Elder Dragon (Mythic)
Flying
Whenever you or a permanent you control becomes the target or a spell or ability an opponent controls, you may change the targets of that spell or ability to another target.
[New Activated Ability]
7/7
I like this basic concept, but it needs some work.
First, I have played with redesigning the elder dragons in the past, and I feel a key aspect that should be emphasized is their central color. Change the mana cost to 3WUUB. Remove the upkeep costs of the original (as you have done).
Next, that ability is... excessive. Add a limiter to how often the effect can trigger.
Permanents you control have "Whenever this creature becomes the target of a spell or ability for the first time each turn, you may change the targets of that spell or ability."
I dislike Chromium granting that ability to itself, so instead lets give it a static protection effect.
Chromium3WUUB
Legendary Creature - Elder Dragon
Flying, hexproof
Other permanents you control have "Whenever this permanent becomes the target of a spell or ability for the first time each turn, you may change the targets of that spell or ability." 7/7
This feels very strong. I would play test with it, and if it proves problematic, consider reducing the p/t, and/or limit the redirection effect to creatures.
Arcades Sabboth2GGWWUU
Legendary Elder Dragon
Flying, vigilance
Whenever ~ deals combat damage to a player, that player skips his or her next untap step. Untap all permanents you control.
4/7
I like this quite a bit, but I would adjust the mana cost as mentioned above for Chromium (Arcades is White-centric).
While I love the Stasis trigger, I am not convinced is appropriate as a primary white effect. I would consider replacing it with a related "can't" effect instead, though I am uncertain what to use.
I would also remove the Untap clause.
With Commander in mind, my question is this: How could these Iconic Elder Dragons be remade into new, powerful Legends to represent their true strength?
Questions
- What were the actual powers of the original five Elder Dragons? Their original cards have rather weak effects in today's standing, and are all rather combat oriented. I have read up on some of the lore to see if I could find what each dragon could do (i.e. magical powers, etc) but haven't found much unique information regarding it.
- Should they have similar mana costs to their old effects?
- How could each be redesigned to play into the Reworked color pie?
My Design in Progress
What I've been working on is remaking them. So far, I've taken the old cards and streamlined them into a new form. Here is what I have so far:
Old Card:
New Design in Progress:
Here is my first attempt at Chromium. I don't know a lot about what he should do, but I did base some of his effects off what I imagine a Chrome-Skinned Elder Dragon might do.
I liked the idea of the "Chrome" skin being like a mirror or reflective surface. I started thinking of cards that redirect spells and abilities, like Quicksilver Dragon, and cards that act as a "Rattlesnake" to deter your opponents from targeting you and your stuff, like Martyr's Bond. As is, the card seems really powerful, and I haven't even given it a secondary effect. But it's a work in progress!
I invite all of you to offer up suggestions as well as help discuss what these dragons should do in their remastered forms. I think we will create some interesting design ideas!
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Innistrad - The Darkest Night
~THE RAVNICAN CONSORTIUM~
A Community Set
Commander: Allies & Adversaries
Before I get into it, I'm gonna say up front that these are gonna end up being very win-more and oppressive, just like Bolas is. I consider that the goal, as that takes the popularity and power of Bolas and applies it to the rest of the Elder Dragons. Also, I'm completely eyeballing the mana costs, so I could be completely off.
Now.
I don't think there really is anything to know about what the dragons can actually do, other than they were all about as powerful as Bolas. Given that, I'd start with his card and build from that design.
First, I think cutting the upkeep cost is the safest bet here.
Second, Giving all of the dragons a really powerful and splashy "saboteur" ability seems like the best bet for this cycle.
And third, additional minor abilities for protection, evasion, or just a little extra value will help top these guys off. At this point, we want to make sure they aren't too good, or that they're costed sufficiently. I think sticking with double mana symbols in each color seems safe too.
And finally, as to what effects we choose for each dragon, since we have nothing concrete to go on, lets just stick within their colors and pick whatever fits best on a dragon.
Here's my take on Chromium:
Chromium WWUUBB
Legendary Elder Dragon
Flying
Whenever ~ deals combat damage to a player, double your life total.
Pay half your life rounded down: ~ gains hexproof until end of turn.
5/5
Life gain and hexproof are in Esper colors, and the way the abilities tie together balance the card out, I think. Also, using hexproof plays up the chrome-skinned aspect of Chromium, so I think this works quite well.
I also ended up compromising on the p/t to make it a little less oppressive, as 7/7 is gonna be pretty hard to deal with when he can gain hexproof whenever he needs. This way, there's a higher chance he could be destroyed in combat, which is safer.
Nicol Bolas 1UUBBRR
Legendary Elder Dragon
Flying
Whenever ~ deals combat damage to a player, that player discards his or her hand.
At the beginning of each opponent's upkeep, you may have that player draw a card. If you do, target creature that player controls attacks this turn if able.
7/7
Nicol Bolas is where we started, so I think sticking with his signature effect is good. Costing him at 7 and keeping his p/t at 7/7 plays inyo his 7s theme. His goad ability plays off of his discard ability and plays up his manipulative personality. It also doubles as extra evasion.
Next is Vaevictus Asmadi. We don't really know that much, other than this guy loves to breathe fire. That could work as the "little extra" ability, so that means we just need a splashy saboteur ability. Something that scales with the amount of damage being dealt would work nicely with the fire-breathing, so how about this:
Vaevictus Asmadi 2BBRRGG
Legendary Elder Dragon
Flying, trample
Whenever ~ deals combat damage to a player, that player sacrifices that many permanents.
BRG: ~ gets +3/+0 until end of turn.
3/7
Trample and a large cost makes this a little more green. The fire-breathing is red, and thr sac ability is black. The fire-breathing being fixed to 3-for-3 makes it a little less abusable, but still very impactful. The low power keeps the sac ability in check and encourages the fire-breathing. I'm unsure about the power level, but the same can be said for all the others too.
Palladia-Mors is kind of problematic in that it's basically a french-vanilla beater, so there isn't a lot to go on. So let's try this:
Palladia-Mors 1RRGGWW
Legendary Elder Dragon
Flying, first strike, trample
Whenever ~ deals combat damage to a player, put that many +1/+1 counters on target creature.
7/7
The trample is extra relevant with the Necropolis Regent ability. The first strike and the "target creature" make this guy a bit more versatile in that it can hit the opponent, then stack its counters on another attacking creature before that one hits, getting in for a tone of extra damage.
Finally, Arcades Sabboth. He's definitely more defensive, so giving him a saboteur ability is tricky.
Arcades Sabboth 2GGWWUU
Legendary Elder Dragon
Flying, vigilance
Whenever ~ deals combat damage to a player, that player skips his or her next untap step. Untap all permanents you control.
4/7
I chose to play around with untapping, as that's sort of Sabboth's thing. Forcing the opponent to skip their untap step keeps them on their back, which can be really oppressive, so I lowered the power to 4 rather than seven, giving the opponent more chances to recover. Untapping your stuff gives you a strong defense, as does giving Sabboth vigilance. For the most part, Sabboth is lacking the "little extra" ability, but that's really just because he doesn't need it. He's probably broken as-is.
Anyway, that's my take.
I like your preliminary idea for a new Chromium. Reflecting spells seems like a nice flavorful take. Mechanically I think that having this as a static ability is making for less interesting gameply than you might hope for - it's basically going to work as hexproof unless there is no alternate target on the battlefield. Quicksilver Dragon's variant is inherently more interesting since it is activated and involves a decision when to reflect.
Finally a good white villain quote: "So, do I ever re-evaluate my life choices? Never, because I know what I'm doing is a righteous cause."
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Legendary Journey: Heroes & Planeswalkers
Saga: Shards of Rabiah
Legends: The Elder Dragons
Read up on Red Flags & NWO
Legendary Creature - Elder Dragon
Upkeep WUB
Flying, Rampage 2, Menace, Haste, Lifelink
U: Exile New Chromium, then return it to the battlefield at the end of turn.
7/7
You should remain close to what the characters are capable of in the lore, not necessarily what the original card does, and I do not think we have significant information on the original elder dragons aside from Bolas (though I admit I have not done research into them in quite some time). Even then, the effect should be appropriate for the colors, and Chromium is Blue centered. Your proposed 'edict' effect is not really appropriate.
I like this basic concept, but it needs some work.
First, I have played with redesigning the elder dragons in the past, and I feel a key aspect that should be emphasized is their central color. Change the mana cost to 3WUUB. Remove the upkeep costs of the original (as you have done).
Next, that ability is... excessive. Add a limiter to how often the effect can trigger.
I dislike Chromium granting that ability to itself, so instead lets give it a static protection effect.
Chromium 3WUUB
Legendary Creature - Elder Dragon
Flying, hexproof
Other permanents you control have "Whenever this permanent becomes the target of a spell or ability for the first time each turn, you may change the targets of that spell or ability."
7/7
I like this quite a bit, but I would adjust the mana cost as mentioned above for Chromium (Arcades is White-centric).
While I love the Stasis trigger, I am not convinced is appropriate as a primary white effect. I would consider replacing it with a related "can't" effect instead, though I am uncertain what to use.
I would also remove the Untap clause.
A Dying Wish
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Chainer, Dementia Master
Muldrotha, the Gravetide
Atraxa, Praetors' Voice