Okay, so here's my latest iteration. I've added texturing and adjusted the positions of the mana symbols. One has a square art box and the other has rounded corners.
I don't understand the point of moving the P/T box. It being in the corner means it doesn't intrude on the art or anything really.
I do like this version of the mana layout.
Having the p/t along the left side makes it easily visible when fanning cards in your hand. The only reason it's normally in the bottom right is that it doesn't fit well anywhere else. I don't think that's a good reason to have it there, when, again, the art is much bigger on this version anyway.
Don't fan your cards; this isn't poker and the idea that all of the information should be in the upper lefthand corner of the card is absurd.
Are you going to put a box for keywords, so you know your angel has flying when fanning your cards?
I just don't get this. I've never seen anyone play a creeature and then say "Oh, wait, I didn't realize that was its power and toughness."
Is this a design intended to benefit the person who constructs the deck? Or is this a design intended to benefit someone who has never played magic before? Because seeing at a glance that Tarmogoyf is a 0/1 isn't going to help anyone.
Don't fan your cards; this isn't poker and the idea that all of the information should be in the upper lefthand corner of the card is absurd.
Are you going to put a box for keywords, so you know your angel has flying when fanning your cards?
I just don't get this. I've never seen anyone play a creeature and then say "Oh, wait, I didn't realize that was its power and toughness."
Is this a design intended to benefit the person who constructs the deck? Or is this a design intended to benefit someone who has never played magic before? Because seeing at a glance that Tarmogoyf is a 0/1 isn't going to help anyone.
Whether or not you do so, the majority of players play with their cards fanned to the right in their hand. I have also already said that some of these changes are made in an effort to simply improve functionality, not specifically to solve problems. What I mean by that is that something doesn't need to be problematic to have potential for improvement, and that's what I'm working toward.
My point is that these changes are in the interest of improving things for the majority of players, not for pleasing you specifically. If you are content with the current card frame, please feel free to leave this thread and never post in it again.
I had a laundry list of problems. But I've shortened it to these two points:
1. Magic cards contain more information than normal playing cards. You can get everything you need to know about a Jack of Clubs, or a an Uno Yellow 7, by looking at the upper left hand corner. You cannot do this with a magic card.
2. Placing the p/t box and mana boxes (variable from 1 to... like 11? boxes) in the same place confuses players; one set of boxes is relevant to play the card, and the last, final, box is only relevant when the card is on the field, yet they occupy the same space.
Long story short: To read a magic card, in most cases you need to read the entire card. Redesigning the card frame to prioritize an incomplete set of information (and unrelated information at that) is inherently confusing. You understand your design, but it's not intuitive.
If you don't know what your cards do, do not fan them. If you know what your cards do, fanning them doesn't obscure information that you don't already know. At best, your card design is aimed to benefit the section of magic players that have memorized a card's text box, but not it's mana cost or power/toughness.
This is to say that your target audience has memorized the blue parts, but not the red parts of Akroma, Angel of Wrath
5WWW
Legendary Creature — Angel
Flying, first strike, vigilance, trample, haste, protection from black and from red
6/6
Your target audience routinely confuses Open Fire and lightning bolt because they've memorized the game text, but have trouble remembering their mana costs.
Maybe some people have these troubles. But I've never heard anyone express them before. Do you often hear people expressing these problems, or do you infer this from observation?
I'm open to the possibility that the current card frame is not ideal. As far as I can tell, you haven't made that case yet. And the changes that you've suggested have made the card harder to interpret, and has prioritized an arbitrary subset of the card's data, seemingly to solve a problem that I've never experienced before - that some people confuse Open Fire and lightning bolt and need to be reminded, at a moment's notice, that one costs R and one 2R. And they need to be reminded without looking at the entire card... for some reason.
I had a laundry list of problems. But I've shortened it to these two points:
1. Magic cards contain more information than normal playing cards. You can get everything you need to know about a Jack of Clubs, or a an Uno Yellow 7, by looking at the upper left hand corner. You cannot do this with a magic card.
2. Placing the p/t box and mana boxes (variable from 1 to... like 11? boxes) in the same place confuses players; one set of boxes is relevant to play the card, and the last, final, box is only relevant when the card is on the field, yet they occupy the same space.
Long story short: To read a magic card, in most cases you need to read the entire card. Redesigning the card frame to prioritize an incomplete set of information (and unrelated information at that) is inherently confusing. You understand your design, but it's not intuitive.
If you don't know what your cards do, do not fan them. If you know what your cards do, fanning them doesn't obscure information that you don't already know. At best, your card design is aimed to benefit the section of magic players that have memorized a card's text box, but not it's mana cost or power/toughness.
This is to say that your target audience has memorized the blue parts, but not the red parts of Akroma, Angel of Wrath
5WWW
Legendary Creature — Angel
Flying, first strike, vigilance, trample, haste, protection from black and from red
6/6
Your target audience routinely confuses Open Fire and lightning bolt because they've memorized the game text, but have trouble remembering their mana costs.
Maybe some people have these troubles. But I've never heard anyone express them before. Do you often hear people expressing these problems, or do you infer this from observation?
I'm open to the possibility that the current card frame is not ideal. As far as I can tell, you haven't made that case yet. And the changes that you've suggested have made the card harder to interpret, and has prioritized an arbitrary subset of the card's data, seemingly to solve a problem that I've never experienced before - that some people confuse Open Fire and lightning bolt and need to be reminded, at a moment's notice, that one costs R and one 2R. And they need to be reminded without looking at the entire card... for some reason.
Clearly you are not actually reading my posts. I've already addressed every single thing you just said. So please, if you have nothing constructive to say, stop posting. You've made it clear that don't fall into the category of people I need feedback from on this matter.
The rounded one looks good, but I like the P/T being in the frame ala normal, as it leaves more room for the art.
Could you possibly, pretty please do a mock up with the types at the top of the picture, subtypes at the bottom of the picture, and P/T on the bottom (right preferably, but left if you want to support fanned cards)?
Here. I'm not a fan of the p/t position, but that may just be because of the surprising amount of work doing this took.
I also added a text box, because upon trying other colors, I discovered the text needs more contrast. I also adjusted the color again (I'm still trying to get something that feels right.)
Maybe try putting the set symbol in top right corner and left aligning the name? Centered names will look really weird on fanned cards, Being able to see part of the name is really important for identifying the card in your fanned hand.
Edit: Does anyone know how tight the the allowances on the card cutting bots are? The border of these designs may need to be significantly thicker in order to hide production imperfection.
Every time I read a comment about "Well if this card had card draw/trample/haste/indestructible/hexproof/life gain...", I think "You're missing the point." They're armchair developer comments that fail to take into account the card's role in the greater Limited and Standard environment. No, it may not be as good as whatever card you're comparing it to. There's a reason for that. Not every burn spell is Lightning Bolt, nor does it need to be or should be.
- Manite
Maybe try putting the set symbol in top right corner and left aligning the name? Centered names will look really weird on fanned cards, Being able to see part of the name is really important for identifying the card in your fanned hand.
Edit: Does anyone know how tight the the allowances on the card cutting bots are? The border of these designs may need to be significantly thicker in order to hide production imperfection.
I like the position I've put the name and symbols in. They mook much better centered in my opinion.
The first thing that players usually look for when analyzing the cards in their hand is what they can cast and when, which is why the mana cost is in the top left corner. The name doesn't have the same immediate relevance, so I'm less concerned about having more of the name be visible like that.
I made the version with the p/t at the bottom because enough people kept suggesting it that I figured I should at least see how it looks and see if it lives up to peoples' expectations. I don't know how I feel about it though and I'm less inclined to try this suggestion, because I don't think it will really improve anything.
The border thickness is a concern I've been thinking about though. That and the frame seem uncomfortably thin, and I wasn't even thinking about print quality. I'm looking into ways I can improve it now.
I do need to rework a few things about it though. I've started working on other colors and, while the texbox helps, I'm still reworking the colors and various layers to get the right look. It's also missing a pinline, so I'm not sure how to handle multicolor cards yet. I'll keep posting my progress.
Alright. So here's Arjun with a few new features. The first is that the border is slightly thicker and the gold texture has been added. The second is that there's a pinline to denote the card's color, like on normal cards. The third is that the p/t is back in its normal spot. I moved it there to balance out the visual weight of having the mana cost in the top left, and as much as I dislike it being there, more people seem to like it there.
Honestly, I like this latest frame (the Arjun one) quite a bit. Comes off as cleaner while still retaining the Magic style. It's certainly better then the one WotC greenlit for the Invocations. My only qualms are that the mana symbols make the art asymmetrical by covering a corner and that the supertype/type and the subtypes are in separate locations.
It's clear that you've put a lot of time and effort into this, and looking at the changes, they've definitely been for the better. By comparison to everything I've seen, I still think the most attractive card frame is easily the original. The best looking cards are from around the time of Legends and The Dark, but the fonts were too thin, and proved somewhat difficult to read. There were other practical issues as well, but these were largely fixed by Mirage, and cards from this time have the best balance of aesthetics to readability.
As the nineties wear on, everything gets more saturated, the art style gets more uniform, and gradually, the mystical aesthetic gets replaced by a more slick and modern one. By the end of the nineties, cards looked pretty bad. Then new card frame roles in, and we chug along toward the heavily designed to today. Yet, when one looks at more recent reprints of these beautiful older cards, the newer frames fail to do the art justice. Your design steps yet further into the slick and modern, which I guess people are into. Still, As far as I can tell, the optimized card frame has already been found. C'mon, which is cooler looking and more magical- Arjun, the Shifting Flame or Mundungu?
All that said, I understand that this is a personal artistic project, and these opinions are not productive to that. If Wizards were actually doing this, I'd be strongly against it, but taking that out of the consideration, I can see that what you're doing does have merit.
Ranting aside, I dislike the idea of changing the way mana costs are written. We've all learned what 5WWW means, and making everyone learn some new, arcane system doesn't seem very optimal to me. Your Avacyn looks like she costs 3W, and the first way you had it written was even weirder.
speaking of changes to the layout of costs, one of the problems with these redesigned frames is that mana costs for a card will need to be written differently from mana costs in activated or triggered abilities.
Every time I read a comment about "Well if this card had card draw/trample/haste/indestructible/hexproof/life gain...", I think "You're missing the point." They're armchair developer comments that fail to take into account the card's role in the greater Limited and Standard environment. No, it may not be as good as whatever card you're comparing it to. There's a reason for that. Not every burn spell is Lightning Bolt, nor does it need to be or should be.
- Manite
Here's an updated version of Arjun, and he brought friends. I wanted to test other colors to see how well the colors work, and I'm pretty happy about how they turned out. I also refined the shape of the mana cost tab, filled in the middle bar with color to act as dual color indicators, and experimented with inverted symbols.
Here's Marath, Will of the Wild, and Progenitus (sporting some new art, credited accordingly). Marath is my first test with mana symbols in the text box, which doesn't deviate from the current model. Progenitus extends the mana cost tab to accommodate more symbols. Both have colored outlines for the mana symbols in the mana cost, as well as a more defined name/type/p/t plate and a gold pinline.
I've moved back to monocolor, so here's Champion of the Parish (the first nonlegendary creature I've tried with this frame). I also tried out adjusting the type lines to the size of the text rather than keeping it consistent.
Edit: Oops, just noticed I somehow lost the end of the flavor text. I'll fix that later.
Here's Snappy, trying out a different color. I don't think I like how dark and flat it is, so I'll be tweaking it.
Edit: I've noticed on the last two pics that the pinline seems weird. It's like the opacity has been cut for some reason, but I can't figure out why. I didn't adjust it in the file like that, so it must be a problem when it was exporting.
Great ideas! Very creative, quality work. Wherever the mana costs are to be located on the card, I'd prefer they consist of the actual mana symbols rather than numbers (except generic). The numbers, while "efficient", feel technical and even mathy, and greatly reduce visual aesthetics/elegance. There is an ancient, eldritch, arcane, mystical, runic quality to the mana symbols that is whitewashed by numbers.
I think the super type and type should all be on the type line with subtype as well. It will save space and sync better with existing cards. Separating them makes it feel like a bunch of other Magic-wanna-be games.
Great ideas! Very creative, quality work. Wherever the mana costs are to be located on the card, I'd prefer they consist of the actual mana symbols rather than numbers (except generic). The numbers, while "efficient", feel technical and even mathy, and greatly reduce visual aesthetics/elegance. There is an ancient, eldritch, arcane, mystical, runic quality to the mana symbols that is whitewashed by numbers.
I think the super type and type should all be on the type line with subtype as well. It will save space and sync better with existing cards. Separating them makes it feel like a bunch of other Magic-wanna-be games.
Thanks! It's an extremely fun project for me, so I'm glad some people are liking the results.
I'm experimenting with moving back to individual symbols to see how well that can work with my current model, and I've attached an example with Progenitus (still deciding how I wanna do generic mana).
As for the types, the reason I separated them is partly to avoid the issue that came with the god weapons from Theros. There wasn't enough room for "Legendary Enchantment Artifact - Equipment" on one line, so they had to make them just regular artifacts, which I think was kind of a flavor miss. Splitting up the types avoids that issue by keeping types (words with actual rules associations) and subtypes (flavorful marker words that can be referenced in card text, but have no rules baggage) on different lines, without really causing any confusion. I know the god-weapon problem doesn't come up that often, but it does happen occasionally and I'd rather avoid that if I can.
Here's Arjun again, this time accompanied by Teysa. I'm testing out individual symbols for generic mana, and then symbols to represent five generic mana to save space. I did this rather than using numbers for consistency. It's more consistent to count just symbols or just numbers than to count a mixture of both.
Nice attempts on optimising the card frame! I'm also trying to do it from times to times, so I'll take this opportunity to show you mine. Maybe we can mix our ideas to get something even better
This is just a sketch I've done this morning, but it was just to show you my ideas. I can make a cleaner version too if you like it:
It's closer to the actual frame but with useful changes:
- centered names and types allow longer text and symetry ;
- the mana bar under the name box looks clearer to me and as it starts from the left, you can see it well when you fan your hand ;
- the power/thoughness box (I wrote "S/T" on the sketch because I thought it was "strenght" in English...) on the left side makes it visible on first sight too and doesn't takes space on the textbox like the M15 style currently does ;
- the curved forms for the illustration box and the textbox give more dynamism to the overall look ;
- I could also lower the holofoil stamp on the black border to give even more room to the textbox
Please tell me what you think about it
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I do like this version of the mana layout.
Are you going to put a box for keywords, so you know your angel has flying when fanning your cards?
I just don't get this. I've never seen anyone play a creeature and then say "Oh, wait, I didn't realize that was its power and toughness."
Is this a design intended to benefit the person who constructs the deck? Or is this a design intended to benefit someone who has never played magic before? Because seeing at a glance that Tarmogoyf is a 0/1 isn't going to help anyone.
My point is that these changes are in the interest of improving things for the majority of players, not for pleasing you specifically. If you are content with the current card frame, please feel free to leave this thread and never post in it again.
1. Magic cards contain more information than normal playing cards. You can get everything you need to know about a Jack of Clubs, or a an Uno Yellow 7, by looking at the upper left hand corner. You cannot do this with a magic card.
2. Placing the p/t box and mana boxes (variable from 1 to... like 11? boxes) in the same place confuses players; one set of boxes is relevant to play the card, and the last, final, box is only relevant when the card is on the field, yet they occupy the same space.
Long story short: To read a magic card, in most cases you need to read the entire card. Redesigning the card frame to prioritize an incomplete set of information (and unrelated information at that) is inherently confusing. You understand your design, but it's not intuitive.
If you don't know what your cards do, do not fan them. If you know what your cards do, fanning them doesn't obscure information that you don't already know. At best, your card design is aimed to benefit the section of magic players that have memorized a card's text box, but not it's mana cost or power/toughness.
This is to say that your target audience has memorized the blue parts, but not the red parts of Akroma, Angel of Wrath
5WWW
Legendary Creature — Angel
Flying, first strike, vigilance, trample, haste, protection from black and from red
6/6
Your target audience routinely confuses Open Fire and lightning bolt because they've memorized the game text, but have trouble remembering their mana costs.
Maybe some people have these troubles. But I've never heard anyone express them before. Do you often hear people expressing these problems, or do you infer this from observation?
I'm open to the possibility that the current card frame is not ideal. As far as I can tell, you haven't made that case yet. And the changes that you've suggested have made the card harder to interpret, and has prioritized an arbitrary subset of the card's data, seemingly to solve a problem that I've never experienced before - that some people confuse Open Fire and lightning bolt and need to be reminded, at a moment's notice, that one costs R and one 2R. And they need to be reminded without looking at the entire card... for some reason.
I also added a text box, because upon trying other colors, I discovered the text needs more contrast. I also adjusted the color again (I'm still trying to get something that feels right.)
Edit: Does anyone know how tight the the allowances on the card cutting bots are? The border of these designs may need to be significantly thicker in order to hide production imperfection.
- Manite
The first thing that players usually look for when analyzing the cards in their hand is what they can cast and when, which is why the mana cost is in the top left corner. The name doesn't have the same immediate relevance, so I'm less concerned about having more of the name be visible like that.
I made the version with the p/t at the bottom because enough people kept suggesting it that I figured I should at least see how it looks and see if it lives up to peoples' expectations. I don't know how I feel about it though and I'm less inclined to try this suggestion, because I don't think it will really improve anything.
The border thickness is a concern I've been thinking about though. That and the frame seem uncomfortably thin, and I wasn't even thinking about print quality. I'm looking into ways I can improve it now.
Thank you! I'm glad at least one person thinks so
I do need to rework a few things about it though. I've started working on other colors and, while the texbox helps, I'm still reworking the colors and various layers to get the right look. It's also missing a pinline, so I'm not sure how to handle multicolor cards yet. I'll keep posting my progress.
As the nineties wear on, everything gets more saturated, the art style gets more uniform, and gradually, the mystical aesthetic gets replaced by a more slick and modern one. By the end of the nineties, cards looked pretty bad. Then new card frame roles in, and we chug along toward the heavily designed to today. Yet, when one looks at more recent reprints of these beautiful older cards, the newer frames fail to do the art justice. Your design steps yet further into the slick and modern, which I guess people are into. Still, As far as I can tell, the optimized card frame has already been found. C'mon, which is cooler looking and more magical- Arjun, the Shifting Flame or Mundungu?
All that said, I understand that this is a personal artistic project, and these opinions are not productive to that. If Wizards were actually doing this, I'd be strongly against it, but taking that out of the consideration, I can see that what you're doing does have merit.
Ranting aside, I dislike the idea of changing the way mana costs are written. We've all learned what 5WWW means, and making everyone learn some new, arcane system doesn't seem very optimal to me. Your Avacyn looks like she costs 3W, and the first way you had it written was even weirder.
Low-power cube enthusiast!
My 1570 card cube (no longer updated)
My 415 Peasant+ Artifact and Enchantment Cube
Ever-Expanding "Just throw it in" cube.
- Manite
I'll try some cards of three to five colors, then start with monocolor cards again.
Edit: Oops, just noticed I somehow lost the end of the flavor text. I'll fix that later.
Edit: I've noticed on the last two pics that the pinline seems weird. It's like the opacity has been cut for some reason, but I can't figure out why. I didn't adjust it in the file like that, so it must be a problem when it was exporting.
I think the super type and type should all be on the type line with subtype as well. It will save space and sync better with existing cards. Separating them makes it feel like a bunch of other Magic-wanna-be games.
I'm experimenting with moving back to individual symbols to see how well that can work with my current model, and I've attached an example with Progenitus (still deciding how I wanna do generic mana).
As for the types, the reason I separated them is partly to avoid the issue that came with the god weapons from Theros. There wasn't enough room for "Legendary Enchantment Artifact - Equipment" on one line, so they had to make them just regular artifacts, which I think was kind of a flavor miss. Splitting up the types avoids that issue by keeping types (words with actual rules associations) and subtypes (flavorful marker words that can be referenced in card text, but have no rules baggage) on different lines, without really causing any confusion. I know the god-weapon problem doesn't come up that often, but it does happen occasionally and I'd rather avoid that if I can.
Mind doing Memnite, Evermind, and Jace, the Mind Sculptor so we can see some variations?
Oh, you changed frames from page 1. Carry on.
Older Magic as a Board Game: Panglacial Wurm , Mill
This is just a sketch I've done this morning, but it was just to show you my ideas. I can make a cleaner version too if you like it:
It's closer to the actual frame but with useful changes:
- centered names and types allow longer text and symetry ;
- the mana bar under the name box looks clearer to me and as it starts from the left, you can see it well when you fan your hand ;
- the power/thoughness box (I wrote "S/T" on the sketch because I thought it was "strenght" in English...) on the left side makes it visible on first sight too and doesn't takes space on the textbox like the M15 style currently does ;
- the curved forms for the illustration box and the textbox give more dynamism to the overall look ;
- I could also lower the holofoil stamp on the black border to give even more room to the textbox
Please tell me what you think about it