Working on a multicolor set (probably set on Alara) and decided that Converge would be a good mechanic to include. Just want a bit of feedback on the designs I have so far:
Maelstrom Monument5
Legendary Artifact (M)
Each spell that would cost less than five mana to cast costs five mana to cast. Converge - Whenever you cast a spell, draw a card for each color of mana spent to cast it.
Bant AmbassadorW
Creature - Human Knight (R)
First strike, vigilance Converge - When ~ or another creature enters the battlefield, if it was cast from your hand, you gain 1 life for each color of mana spent to cast it.
2/2
Naya AmbassadorG
Creature - Cat Warrior (R)
Vigilance, trample Converge - ~ and each other creature you control enters the battlefield with an additional +1/+1 counter on it for each color of mana spent to cast it.
2/2
Conduit of the Maelstrom1U
Artifact Creature - Human Wizard (M) Converge - When ~ enters the battlefield, you may exile an instant or sorcery card with converted mana cost X or less from your hand, where X is the number of colors of mana spent to cast ~. 2, T: Copy the exiled card. You may cast the copy without paying its mana cost.
1/1
Maelstrom's Malice1BB
Sorcery (R) Converge - Destroy up to one target creature or planeswalker for each color of mana spent to cast ~.
Prismatic Dissolution1U
Instant (C) Converge - Counter target spell unless its controller pays 1 for each color of mana spent to cast ~.
Maelstrom WalkerX
Artifact Creature - Construct Converge - ~ enters the battlefield with a +1/+1 counter on it for each color of mana spent to cast it.
0/0
If I only spend one color of mana to play the spell, what's converging? Flavorwise, I think "Converge" has to count only if you paid all 5 mana. Of course, this doesn't work with your "Converge as scaling", as you've either converged or you haven't, and the spell has to cost 5 mana.
However, you could always have Converge be an alternate cost; more or less a keywording of Bringer of the Black Dawn's alt cost.
In any case, your Hybrid designs are too clever for your own good.
I don't think you balanced the scalability, either. Naya Ambassador is always at least a 3/3 that gives at least one +1/+1 counter to each other creature you play. Obscene. A 4/4 for 4 or 5/5 for 4 with bonuses to counters is just stupid.
Final Thought - As is (admittedly like several existing ability words; notably morbid), some converge are when this is played; some are when others are played, and some are ETB. This is confusing, and - quite frankly - sloppy. I want to be clear here: WOTC does this on occasion; and it's sloppy there too. Landfall is more or less the best ability word I've seen them do in a while, and even then they had to slap it on non-permanents.
Edit: How is this different from domain? If the answer is "I can run nonbasic land sources to fix my mana", then all you're doing is diluting domain.
Converge went over okay. It played well, but wasn't super hype inducing. Good utility mechanic to create variance in deck building.
The only issue with some of these is that the power level is pretty all over the place. The Naya Ambassador is super strong if it sticks on the board, Bant Ambassador a little less so. Maelstrom's Malice is also too strong as printed, I think it's be better balanced at 2BB and only hit creatures. I think converge is most interesting when it scales to 3 or more, so the 1U and 1BB don't give a lot of flex in their usage.
I like the design of Maelstrom Monument, in that it taxes everyone, but bonuses you at the same time. Bonus might be OP though. Consider Scry X instead of draw X.
I never played during domain, but I think it's a classic mechanic. It asks you to do something you (and especially I, who like mono-color decks) would rarely do - run all 5 basic lands. You didn't even need to run things to cast with them, mind you, just getting out a land type was sufficient to do the work. (Note this was before the reintroduction of duals, like Ravnica's and the bicycling lands.) It really encouraged 5 color decks and land search.
Converge... basically wants you to run City of Brass-effects It's basically a less interesting domain, I'd be surprised if ANYONE said "Oh, boy, now I need a converge deck!"; however Domain decks were straightforward: (1) Green, (2) Domain spells, (3) Maybe run good stuff since you've got all 5 colors. Domain makes Stone Rain relevant in a way it normally isn't.
This feels like someone said "make a NEW mechanic," and they took a preexisting concept and executed it poorly.
If Converse is going to do something to stand apart, it has to do something that wouldn't be more elegant as domain.
Was Converge well received? I know landfall was...
Converge was generally unpopular, but that is likely due in large part to being in an environment which didn't well support it and under development of the mechanic in general. MaRo puts it at a 6 on the storm scale.
Every time I read a comment about "Well if this card had card draw/trample/haste/indestructible/hexproof/life gain...", I think "You're missing the point." They're armchair developer comments that fail to take into account the card's role in the greater Limited and Standard environment. No, it may not be as good as whatever card you're comparing it to. There's a reason for that. Not every burn spell is Lightning Bolt, nor does it need to be or should be.
- Manite
Converge (Battle for Zendikar)
Popularity: Unpopular
Converge should be happy cohort exists, because otherwise it would be the lowest rated mechanic currently in market research.
Design Space: Small
This mechanic requires scaling effects that are somewhat limited.
Versatility: Flexible
The effects we use for this mechanic are usually basic effects you find every game.
Development: Neutral
Supporting this in Limited requires you to warp the set to have more color fixing, which can have other negative consequences.
Playability: Playability affected
This mechanic requires both players to track how much colored mana was used to cast the spell, which can be difficult especially for the opponent.
Storm Scale Rating: 6
I think converge ended up being a mechanic in the wrong environment. I believe if put into a block where color (as opposed to colorlessness) is relevant, the mechanic would have fared much better. It has a bunch of issues as listed above, but I do think one day we might find a home for converge.
Note:
Domain - 4.
Sunburst - ????
Make no mistake, Sunburst is poorly designed since it produces 2 different counters depending on whether the card is a creature (WTF WOTC?); but it's an incredible mechanic other than that. If it had been only +1/+1 counters (which "acted" as charge counters, functionally, but had a narrow "if it's animated" bonus effect...) it would be have been great.
Tribal Flames, Tromp the Domains, Exploding Borders; just so many clear, interesting cards. And, more importantly, the deck building challenges were elegant and iconic: Run all five basic land types; have ways of getting them out.
I'm convinced the only reason we don't see Domain be pushed is because in constructed (well, modern), it's always a turn 3 thing, while in standard it's a turn 5 thing, due to dual lands. It's difficult to create a suitable standard-playable domain spell that isn't broke when you get +2 to the effect on turn 3. I say "difficult", but not impossible. The solution is simple - print rare dual lands in the same set. Immediate synergy. Print suitable fetches and/or search in limited, but rely upon dual rares in constructed to do the work.
Domain offers so many clear, interesting deck building challenges in both llimited and constructed that it's a great, overlooked, mechanic to evaluate. Look at Tromp the Domains; a fine limited Overrun variant that turns into the best constructed Overrun variant in a suitable 5 color deck. Designing that kind of card is incredibly difficult, but perhaps the most rewarding. ANYONE can construct a dumb limited bomb. ANYONE can construct an overpowered constucted bomb. But Wizards designed a fair constructed bomb (at least casual) that performed suitably well in limited.
Make no mistake, Sunburst is poorly designed since it produces 2 different counters depending on whether the card is a creature (WTF WOTC?); but it's an incredible mechanic other than that. If it had been only +1/+1 counters (which "acted" as charge counters, functionally, but had a narrow "if it's animated" bonus effect...) it would be have been great.
Converge is literally sunburst without being tied to +1/+1 counters (and sometimes it was, see Skyrider Elf and Tajuru Stalwart), so same basic effect with more options for variance of effects and the kinds of cards that can use it. Sunburst, if printed today, wouldn't be keyworded (it would be an ability work like converge) because of the variance in counters and sunburst doesn't fit in a world where multiple colored suns aren't a prominent feature.
I don't understand how you consider sunburst an incredible mechanic but have a problem with converge?
Converge is akin to Fabricate being ability worded "Makebricate - When this creature enters the battlefield, create 4 servo tokens or draw 2 cards."
From a design perspective, the more open-ended your mechanic, the more it's every other mechanic and cuts off original design space. See Kicker, and the mechanics that could be kicker: Evoke, replicate, etc.
Is Domain too open-ended? I think not; Domain is tight insofar as it always cares about the same 5 land types. The deck that runs domain has a clear, cohesive strategy. It doesn't ONLY run domain cards, but it gets the most out of Domain cards if it gets it's lands right.
Sunburst, as a mechanic, was best done on Engineered Explosives. How many counters you put on matters, and you get to choose by how you pay for the spell. Admittedly, most other Sunburst cards were "pay as many colors of mana as you can", which isn't very impressive (BUT it does allow the cards to be played in narrower decks... again, less unity). But the ability to choose how many of [relevant counter] is on the thing is great design space.
But Converge? Converge is just bad domain insofar as (a) you can't get it off with just 3 lands, and (b) there is no "deck building unity" other than "play mana fixing"; distinct from "play basic land types" (AKA, the main mechanic of the game!). Landfall, Domain, Tribal - all their mechanics play the same. Different cards do different things, but the mechanics themselves play the same.
Etched Oracle and Suntouched Myr work very similar, mechanically; the difference in the card just is how Etched Oracle expertly uses the mechanic of +1/+1 counters.
In contrast, Skyrider Elf is no Engineered Explosives; it actually uses Converge as a Drawback! Unacceptable! People used to play Fist Of Suns so they could bank Pentad Prism mana; AKA they wanted to pay more to scale the effect. But Skyrider Elf? Converge actually says "I'm sorry fellas, X is no greater than 3, and only if you jump through these hoops."
Converge is undisciplined Sunburst, and Sunburst is undisciplined in itself. As a mechanic... it's just not very interesting, offering no unique deck building space. The fact you can have a Converge lava axe variant just isn't all that interestinng. Sunburst came in a block where the counters mattered. There were multiple ways of interacting with them. Modular - Suburst was a thing! There was a unity there that doesn't exist with Converge, and like similar shotty "we need a new mechanic" mechanics, it's just sloppy.
In contrast, Skyrider Elf is no Engineered Explosives; it actually uses Converge as a Drawback! Unacceptable! People used to play Fist Of Suns so they could bank Pentad Prism mana; AKA they wanted to pay more to scale the effect. But Skyrider Elf? Converge actually says "I'm sorry fellas, X is no greater than 3, and only if you jump through these hoops."
Thats an apples/oranges comparison. Skyrider Elf should be compared to a card like Suntouched Myr, a more similar card, and even without flying, the elf can be cast as a 2/2 for 2 up to a 5/5 for 5, depending on your needs, where the myr is 3 to cast even as a 1/1.
The Variable play of Engineered Explosives would be better compared to Painful Truths, where the card will drain and draw you 1, 2, or 3 depending on how you tap your mana, or Radiant Flames which I can use as an Electrickery, Pyroclasm, or Sweltering Suns, depending on what will kill more of my opponents creatures or keep mine alive.
You're angry at Converge for being too loose a keyword, when it isn't a keyword. The point of ability words (Converge, Rally, Morbid, Landfall) is to draw attention to cards that care about similar game effects but with different results. A keyword has the same execution (costs and numerical values not withstanding) on every card, though some cards will check the output of the keyword afterwards. Domain (another ability word) is no more or less directive than Converge; one encourages you to play more land types, the other encourages you to play more colors of mana in your deck. They actually work well together (and with Sunburst too).
I'm not saying converge has to be your favorite mechanic. I just think you are looking at it from the perspective of someone who hasn't played with it, and as someone who has and still does (I run Radiant Flames in my standard because it is flexible), though it was not a great fit for the environment it was in, I can say that it played well.
You mean to compare it to Skyreach Manta that costs less if you're having issues getting your sunburst on. It doesn't change the fact that it uses converge as a drawback; a limit on what you can get. This is why Engineered Explosives was so well designed. # mattered. 1-5, and sometimes you don't want to hit 5. In contrast, when we're talking about Skyrider Elf it certainly feels like they don't want you to have a 6/6 flyer for 6; while Engineered Explosives is more like "You won't need to hit for 6".
Re: Painful Truths - if you're not playing this as a 3 mana ambition's cost, you're losing the game (one way or another). No one says "I think I need only 2 cards this turn."
I'm annoyed Converge PLAYS DIFFERENT from well designed ability words like Domain and Landfall, both of which change how you play the game, often at multiple points across deck building and in-game; limited and constructed. Converge... changes pretty much nothing... except making you pay attention how you tap your lands. WTF? And what do I get for "meticulously" slapping 20 city of brass variants in my deck? Not a single memorable card or effect or fun.
Suntouched Myr is a 3/3 for 3 during a time in magic's history where that wasn't a thing, and an easy gray ogre - innovative, straightforward design that plays a strong limited role and had a fringe shot at constructed. Tajuru Stalwart is at beast a 3/4 in the best creature color. Would be play a 3/4 for 2G in limited? Sure. Constructed? Maybe if it had support??? But this isn't that. RWU literally couldn't get better p/t for the cost than a 3/3 at the time, and in a pinch it could be a 3 mana 2/2 or 1/1. But your converge fella? Woolly Thoctar exists. So it's not doing anything new, not simple (look at all that text for what Suntouched Myr does in a keyword), has is genuinely bad compared to existing cards. The underlined point is why Converge has an uphill battle. It wastes so much time for so little return that it's not funny.
BTW, I enjoy debating this, and I hope you are too. Its fun to argue design decisions and I appreciate your perspectives even if I disagree with them.
I'm gonna go into some other things here, but you keep bringing up Engineered Explosives (a rare clearly designed for constructed) and comparing to a uncommon beater meant to push UG drafters towards a converge build in limited. If they just wanted a "gets bigger flyer" the could have reprinted Nimbus Swimmer, but that's not what they wanted for the draft strategy pointer card.
Oops, yes, I forgot Skyreach Manta[card existed and is a direct comparison to the Elf, and is just as limited on the top end. It doesn't scale down its cost though, and dies to artifact removal.
As an aside, look up crystalline crawler. It uses the Converge template, but is effectively sunburst. The question is, is Sunburst better because it does one thing, or is converge better because it can do many things? More on that below.
You're also missing the comparison of Wolly Thoctar to Tajuru Stalwart. Thoctar is a 5/4 for 3 in Naya. Salwart is a 3/4 for 3 in Naya, Bant, Abzan or Sultai, and has synergy with Elf and Ally decks. It trades raw hitting power for multiple angles of flexibility.
And, yes, I would prefer Painful Truths to a 3 mana Ambition's cost if I happened to be sitting at 2 or 3 life.
(look at all that text for what Suntouched Myr does in a keyword), has is genuinely bad compared to existing cards. The underlined point is why Converge has an uphill battle. It wastes so much time for so little return that it's not funny.
But that's the whole point of a Keyword vs an Ability word. By that arguement, landfall is bad because every landfall card doesn't have the same trigger when a land etbs or domain is bad because every domain card doesn't get the same bonus for having multiple land types.
Like I said before, keywords are meant to communicate a single thing to save card text and occasionally be referenced by other abilities. Ability words are meant to point players to similar abilities on cards without being locked into a single execution of that ability. In fact, if Suntouched were made today, it would probably be an ability word executed almost exactly as converge is. They wanted to push multiple colored play (and support Khans block in standard) but didn't want to just be tied to putting counters on things.
As you can tell, I'm not a fan of ability words in most situations. I understand the rationale; it's a signature that the cards work in such and such a way, and this can really help smooth out limited. But Keywords do this more. Suntouched Myr VS Tajuru Stalwart is an excellent example of this, as the former tells you everything you need to know about the card (and gameplay choices) you need to know in one word, while the latter makes you read a block of text.
If they just wanted a "gets bigger flyer" the could have reprinted Nimbus Swimmer, but that's not what they wanted for the draft strategy pointer card.
I want to be clear here: I began playing magic before pointer cards existed. Around Ravnica players began to speculate that Wizards was making a "power uncommon" for each guild; IE a competitively costed constructed card that fits the guild. I suspect this is the origin of "strategy pointer cards" that tell you what the two colors are doing.
The idea of pointer cards is quite interesting; the problem is that since I came back earlier this year, it's become clear that often these pointer cards are just incredibly poorly designed. Given these should be among the first cards designed, it's unacceptable.
Compare Decimator Beetle and Ridgescale Tusker. The latter is simple, elegant, and - arguably - fringe playable (beast for beast tribal, and provides an anthem effect + a large body for a fair price).
But Decimator Beetle is probably most famous for it's being worded to confuse people. I remember people reviewing the set on youtube and no one read it as it works. The attack triggers would have needed to be 2 separate sentences to be clear. You could argue that Decimator Beetle suffers from the first line of text being a counterfactual -1/-1 mechanic (Scar 1?) that was dekeyworded for marketing reasons (players don't like negative keywords...). But these marketing reasons are well known and so the design team created their own problem here. But the 2nd 2 abilities are worded in such a way as to invite confusion. But set this aside; the card is not constructed playable - fringe or otherwise. It's a poor tribe (one that could have gotten tribal support instead of this clunky scar mechanic), it's p/t is not competitive for the cost (It's a 3/3 for 5!), it's ability points you to playing other "scar" creatures... maybe 3-4 of which has any competitive potential. And, most importantly, it does not have any immediate effect on the board.
Now, you suggest Skyrider Elf is a pointer uncommon. I kind of doubt this, as Converge isn't a color-ed mechanic as far as I can tell. (Unless the idea is that it's 5 color green/blue, and other color pairs... don't get converge? That would just be odd, since blue doesn't care about being 5 colors as part of it's color pie, while green clearly does.) But let's assume it does. What does it tell me about the archetype? +1/+1 counters matter? (NOPE! Then we'd have Sunburst.) Flying matters? (Favorable Winds would have been a better representation of this, and is clearly a casual favorite and fringe constructed playable.) How about 5-colors matter? If that's the case, then the ONLY thing that makes it a pointer card is it's inclusion of the Converge mechanic. Elves matter? (Again, better options. I'm a big fan of uncommon lords for this very reason.).
The Skyrider Elf vs Nimbus Swimmer point is rather important too; wizards accidentally or intentionally printed a functionally worse (in non-tribal) situation card. If this is supposed to be a pointer card, this is quite a slap in the face to players. It's like putting Open Fire in your marketing materials; unthinkable.
Let's look at two competent ability-word pointer cards: Name3GG
Creature - Treefolk (U)
When ETB cultivate.
Landfall - Whenever a land enters the battlefield under your control, put a +1/+1 counter on ~.
1/3
Name 25G
Creature - Beast (U)
When ETB cultivate.
Domain - This gets +1/+1 for each basic land type you control.
1/1
Can we do the same for Converge?
Name 34G
Creature - Treefolk (U)
Converge - This enters the battlefield with a +1/+1 counter for each color of mana spent to play it. 3: Add 2 mana in any combination of colors to your mana pool.
0/1
Domain cares about having things; the enabler gets you those things.
Landfall cares about something happening; the enabler makes it happen.
Converge cares about what you paid for it's mana cost. The enabler... helps you pay costs next turn? But if you need this ability, your uncommon ETB poorly. Maybe you want to play two converge spells a turn, and Name 3 helps you do that. But that's only after you can already produce enough mana to play this converge spell!
At best Skyrider Elf wants to be a payoff card; "Oh, you're running converge, have this converge beatstick." It has more in common with classic "power uncommons" putrefy or mortify than it does Decimator Beetle. But even then, it does this poorly, as given Nimbus Swimmer it doesn't feel like Converge is paying off, but shackling you. Can you make Converge feel good? I don't know; Sunburst never really felt like a great mechanic, but Engineered Explosives used the restrictions of the mechanic in such a way that it has elevated the mechanic simply because it's a good card. Should we expect this at uncommon? I would argue "yes" if this is supposed to be the signature of the mechanic. So let's build just such a card:
Converge Wizard3UG
Creature - Treefolk Wizard (U)
Converge - When this enters the battlefield, put a +1/+1 counter on it for each color of mana used to cast it, then if it has power less than the number of cards in target opponent's hand, draw a card for each card in that player's hand.
1/2
Of course... Converge Wizard3UG
Creature - Treefolk Wizard (U)
Sunburst
When this enters the battlefield, if it has power less than the number of cards in target opponent's hand, draw a card for each card in that player's hand.
1/2
So from a design perspective, Converge is just a poor Sunburst card here. To make a good signature payoff Converge card, you need to do something Sunburst doesn't already do better. So no counters; thus we need a spell.
Converge for the kill2BG
Instant (U)
Converge - Create a 1/1 green insect creature token for each color of mana used to cast this spell.
Then, target creature gets -1/-1 for each insect you control.
Again, this feels poorly designed. The best converge cards are clearly green, and to make them "fully converageable" (Withtout Fist of Suns) they need to cost 5 mana. That's an Obscene design restriction. Since all converge spells are effectively gold, making them cost anything but 1 mana of a color feels real bad, as if you can't produce all 5 already you're already feeling bad. If I have WRGU I can't play this! Landfall and Domain don't suffer this problem!
In closing, I think it's clear that Keywords > ability words for simplicity. Perhaps I look back on Sunburst favorably simply because of what it did with one or two cards; that's on me. But mechanically, the things that Converge cares about are hard to design cards around. Mana cost matters. It's a 1-then-done effect; not repeatable. It scales by what you have when you cast it, it doesn't scale later on. (This is the big difference between creatures with converge and domain, as converge get +1/+1 counters, while domain has p/t = # of basic landtypes in play, and thus scales over time.) So yes, Converge is a Sunburst mechanic that can work with instants and sorceries, and do scalable 1-shot ETB effects. It can do more. It's easier (in some ways) to get a full sunburst/convergence than full domain (again, except in modern, thanks duals + fetches!). But the very fact that the mechanic is tied to casting, rather than things in play (like domain) or a repeatable effect like things being put into play (like landfall) is what makes it feel bad. As a mechanic, it's narrow without many advantages as the comparable mechanic Domain.
Suntouched Myr VS Tajuru Stalwart is an excellent example of this, as the former tells you everything you need to know about the card (and gameplay choices) you need to know in one word, while the latter makes you read a block of text.
Small nitpick, you actually need to read a few words. Sunburst is one of those strange keywords where it works differently depending on the type of permanent it's put on. A noncreature permanent with sunburst gets charge counters while a creature permanent with sunburst gets +1/+1 counters. It isn't enough to simply read sunburst, you also have to read the typeline and know how sunburst cares about the typeline.
The idea of pointer cards is quite interesting; the problem is that since I came back earlier this year, it's become clear that often these pointer cards are just incredibly poorly designed. Given these should be among the first cards designed, it's unacceptable.
In my experience, the pointer cards are some of the last to be designed as you need to first explore what the color pair is doing before you can design a card which highlights the strategy. You can do it the other way around, but doing so is going to fail a lot as you tinker with the set and realize that your UB limited decks aren't actually about mill after all, and instead are a midrangey tempo deck or something. In my experience, only about half of planned archetypes end up working in any meaningful sense once you have fleshed out the commons. The other half just don't work or can't be made to work given the other half of archetypes. Once I know what isn't working, I tend to look at what exists and does work and then try to edit stuff to highlight the stuff that works well. Even among the archetypes that are working, I've found its better to design the archetype supporting cards after all the filler in order to design the card to full an important role (whole) in the archetype.
tldr: archetype highlighting cards are almost never the first cards I design and I don't think there is any reliable way to try to design them first.
How about 5-colors matter? If that's the case, then the ONLY thing that makes it a pointer card is it's inclusion of the Converge mechanic.
Yep. You are correct. Skyrider elf is hinting at a UGxxx deck that was supposed to be supported in BFZ. Unfortunately, green was so weak in that set that the archetype never really worked.
The Skyrider Elf vs Nimbus Swimmer point is rather important too; wizards accidentally or intentionally printed a functionally worse (in non-tribal) situation card.
Nimbus swimmer is an X cmc x-2/x-2 creature. Skyrider Elf is an X cmc x/x creature that requires multi color and maxes out at 5/5. They are entirely different designs. Neither is functionally worse than the other. They go in different decks.
it doesn't feel like Converge is paying off, but shackling you.
That is an interesting point of view which I don't personally share. Converge never felt like a drawback to me
Again, this feels poorly designed. The best converge cards are clearly green, and to make them "fully converageable" (Withtout Fist of Suns) they need to cost 5 mana. That's an Obscene design restriction.
You understand that sunburst, the mechanic you are defending, features identical design restrictions. What is more, sunburst features more design restrictions as sunburst must be put on permanents.
As a mechanic, it's narrow without many advantages as the comparable mechanic Domain.
From a design standpoint, converge is more flexible than domain. Domain requires specific kinds of support cards to amp up the number of basic land types players can reasonably get in limited. Converge only requires mana fixing in general to support.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Every time I read a comment about "Well if this card had card draw/trample/haste/indestructible/hexproof/life gain...", I think "You're missing the point." They're armchair developer comments that fail to take into account the card's role in the greater Limited and Standard environment. No, it may not be as good as whatever card you're comparing it to. There's a reason for that. Not every burn spell is Lightning Bolt, nor does it need to be or should be.
- Manite
Re: Pointer cards: I think it's fair to say that one can alter or change pointer cards in design, but they're pretty much what you want to get right. If this involves tweaking later in the set, after mechanics are changed - fair enough.
Re: GU being 5 color: I know little about the format, but if this is true... it's incompetent.
That is an interesting point of view which I don't personally share. Converge never felt like a drawback to me
Would you ever pay 4UG for Skyrider Elf? How about Nimbus Swimmer? That's what I mean; HERE converge is shackling you. It's quite obscene, actually. Again, compare to Engineered Explosives - a card that ties the counters to the keyword (and thus saves a lot of text space on the card in doing so). Admittedly both Converge and Sunburst proper are "restrictive" as they're more like additional costs you have to pay while casting to get the effect. In terms of mechanics, that's just weird. It's like an esoteric kicker.
You understand that sunburst, the mechanic you are defending, features identical design restrictions. What is more, sunburst features more design restrictions as sunburst must be put on permanents.
The big difference is the amount of game text you get for the same effect. Quite frankly, I've been in favor of printing a modular or graft mechanic in a set merely to save text space on cards you want to put +1/+1 counters on.
For example, Spike Feeder shows you how spikes were templated; but if we returned to spikes, I'd just throw Graft on new Spikes. Not because I want to move +1/+1 counters, although that's a nice bonus and flavorfully consistent with spikes, but mainly because it saves text box space.
So yes - the very fact that Sunburst is a keyword is what makes it preferable to Converge. Both mechanics have problems, but Sunburst's come with a clear advantage.
From a design standpoint, converge is more flexible than domain. Domain requires specific kinds of support cards to amp up the number of basic land types players can reasonably get in limited. Converge only requires mana fixing in general to support.
As demonstrated by the difference between Name and Name 3 above, it's not.
I've spoken earlier in the thread as to how it's easier (in some senses) to get 5 colors than to get 5 basic lands, but domain permanents (which occupy about a half of cards printed with them) have consistently greater gameplay. You can cost Domain cards less than 5 and have them "Grow" to 5; Converge simply doesn't allow this.
Re: Pointer cards: I think it's fair to say that one can alter or change pointer cards in design, but they're pretty much what you want to get right. If this involves tweaking later in the set, after mechanics are changed - fair enough.
Sure, my point was that you basically always have to design them later in the set and there designs are typically highly constrained. Of course, this doesn't change the fact that Decimator beetle is poorly worded and poorly implemented as a design. I don't think markee uncommons in general are poorly designed though.
Re: GU being 5 color: I know little about the format, but if this is true... it's incompetent.
In what way is it incompetent? Do you find it incompetent in Amonkhet as well which does the same trick of having a GUxxx archetype?
The big difference is the amount of game text you get for the same effect.
The literal number of words of rules text on a design isn't really a concern. There are plenty of really grockable cards with a lot of text and plenty of short rules text cards that aren't in any way grockable. The concern in design is excessive wordiness (as in cards with really long rules texts, >4 lines) not word use in general. Don't be afraid to use words, even more words than you absolutely need to, just try to avoid really long rules texts.
I've spoken earlier in the thread as to how it's easier (in some senses) to get 5 colors than to get 5 basic lands, but domain permanents (which occupy about a half of cards printed with them) have consistently greater gameplay. You can cost Domain cards less than 5 and have them "Grow" to 5; Converge simply doesn't allow this.
Converge does allow it though, WotC just didn't explore that design space because converge was underexplored in general. For example...
Rainbow Rootwalla 2G
Creature - Lizard {C}
Trample
Converge - 5 : Rainbow Rootwalla gets +1/+1 for each color of mana spent to activate this ability. Activate this ability only once each turn.
2/2
...And in any case, you seem to have ignored my main point. Converge and domain require comparable amounts of color fixing to make work, but domain requires specific types of color fixing which interact with basic land types in some way. Cards like evolving wilds for example. Converge doesn't have this constraint giving you more control over it in design and development. Your color fixing can be whatever you need it to be, it doesn't need to fetch basic lands or give basic land types to lands.
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Every time I read a comment about "Well if this card had card draw/trample/haste/indestructible/hexproof/life gain...", I think "You're missing the point." They're armchair developer comments that fail to take into account the card's role in the greater Limited and Standard environment. No, it may not be as good as whatever card you're comparing it to. There's a reason for that. Not every burn spell is Lightning Bolt, nor does it need to be or should be.
- Manite
Sure you don't have to design them last; your first draft should probably come rather early. Look at the goblin warchief cycle. It's rather clear that they said "We need an uncommon lord to push the tribal theme." Tweaking thereof might have come late in the format, but you knew you needed lords at uncommon to signpost.
I don't think markee uncommons in general are poorly designed though.
I think "Does this have a realistic shot in at least some deck?" is a fair test here. All of the Onslaught lords fit this. All of them are STILL constructed playable in tribal commander decks.
I realize you and I disagree on whether cards should be designed for constructed; you seem perfectly willing to be all over the place with powerlevel, while I argue that cards should be at least "fringe playable" in some format, meaning they have to be at least tier 2/3 and not obsoleted by existing cards (again, with a few exceptions each year if you're course-correcting). In light of this disagreement, you might be okay with a pointer/signature card that is great in a limited strategy but wouldn't make even the most casual commander deck of anyone with a budget of over $5. But that's a tough sell for cards that are supposed to sell a limited archetype. If a pointer card looks bad to the casual uninitiated player, then I don't think you can say it succeeds at pointing at anything. (I'm sure there have been a few high profile cases of this, but I can't think of any.)
In what way is it incompetent?
As discussed above, green is 5 color by color pie. Blue just is not. So to say that GU is "5 color" is like saying BW is Deathouch-themed. This cannot be the case, since white doesn't get deathtouch and nothing about white says it gets deatbtouch. Blue doesn't get 5-color matters (any more than any other non-green color and much less than green). If your set bleeds a mechanic for block to all 5 colors (domain, threshold, flashback, cycling, scry, Sweep... really pretty much any block mechanic outside of Ravnica-style guilds/tribes/etc.) then all 5 colors (or most of them) get it.
This isn't a subtle point: If Uflavorfully does not get converge any more than any other color, making converge exclusivelyGU Simic's mechanic does not work. This is apparent in the card in question; there's no way anyone with a halfway decent idea of the color pair's identity would conclude that Converge is being used as a GU mechanic; if anything they'd see it as being used as a 5-color mechanic. Which makes sense since it is a 5 color mechanic! Sunburst was an artifact mechanic that made you play 5 colors. Adding UG to the corner doesn't make it a 2-color mechanic.
The literal number of words of rules text on a design isn't really a concern.
I can assure you it is. Ice Cauldron
Even beyond simple templating issues (which are relevant enough to warrant name and creature type changes!), reading text takes precious time in limited, so a card with 3 lines of text you need to read is from a design perspective prohibitory in a way that one with a single world (and 3 lines of reminder text) is not, merely because every Sunburst card (I know, charge vs +1/+1 counters - it's not great, but comparably competent) works the same, while every Converge card CAN work differently.
Converge does allow it though, WotC just didn't explore that design space because converge was underexplored in general. For example...
Rainbow Rootwalla 2G
Creature - Lizard {C}
Trample
Converge - 5 : Rainbow Rootwalla gets +1/+1 for each color of mana spent to activate this ability. Activate this ability only once each turn.
2/2
1. This is a different mechanic. Wizards might say it's the same mechanic (see Landcycling) for marketing, but given how unpopular Converge was and the ever-present marketing push to have new keywords to put on sales material, one would have to have quite bizarre priorities to print that card.
2. It's not an especially compelling or innovative mechanic (I realize you're not trying to make it be; but this is sort of what all mechanics should strive to be, especially if we're not allowed to print drawback mechanics anymore!)
3. There's far less design space. See the Domain card that "works like this" - It can get +5/+0 for 3, but no Converge 2.0 card can do this.
Converge and domain require comparable amounts of color fixing to make work,
No. Converge requires mana fixing; Domain requires basic land type fixing. This is not a subtle point; in fact I suspect it's the primary design motivator for moving from Domain - a popular mechanic - to Converge - an unpopular one. Wizards realized that you can get full domain in Modern on turn 3 (or 2... or possibly 1, I don't even know anymore.) with just 2 fetchlands and a basic. In contrast, full Converge needs 5 different mana. Yes, you can use non-basic-land-typed lands and various other mana fixing to get to 5, but you need 5 mana.
As discussed previously, Wizards CANNOT EASILY design standard-playable Domain cards that cost less than 5 without them being FAR GREATER in a fetchland-enabled Modern than in a slow non-fetchland, non-dualland standard This makes it VERY DIFFICULT for them to design GOOD Domain cards for Standard that aren't OVERPOWERED for Modern.
Imagine this scenario: Decimator beetle and every "Scar" creature is absolutely unplayable in standard (ironically probably true) but lead to a reliably turn 3 combo win in Modern!
That's the Domain Problem. Converge avoids that because to get a X5 Converge, your spell needs to be 5 mana. Mind you, this doesn't mean it's incredibly easy to design constructed playable Converge cards, as is evidenced by the set of cards we have printed, but it means it's at least easier to print them.
Mind you, the Domain problem is not insurmountable; Tromp the Domains did it a while ago. Furthermore, you could actually print duallands and fetchlands in standard (in one block or two side-to-side) to allow for STANDARD x5 Domain spells and balance them accordingly. AS DISCUSSED EARLIER, this is a great design, as it allows your cards to be less oppressive in limited than constructed. See Tribal Flames, Exploding Borders - the former being very popular, and the latter being popular in commander.
Final Word on Domain: As covered above, the "deck design constraints" of Domain (IE, you need to play all 5 basic lands... well, before duals that is...) is one of the reasons it works as a mechanic. The Domain deck looks different than the Madness deck or the Storm deck. Dredge. Replicate. Tribe X. Cycling. Soulshift. (Almost any keyword or mechanic you can actually remember.) But Converge? Like Sweep, it has no unity. You can throw Converge cards that cost less 3 or less into any number of decks and they need not run any other converge costs. You can (and should) only run one or two cards with Sweep; you don't make a Sweep deck. Any 5 color standard deck is probably better suited to play 5-color goodstuff and run MAYBE 1 or two of the best converge cards than to run a "converge" deck.
Can good converge cards be designed? Sure! I can design a Sweep card right now that you want in your vintage deck. Sweep CounterU
Instant (R)
Sweep — Return any number of lands you control to their owner's hand. Counter target spell unless its controller pays 2 for each land returned in this way. If it is countered in this way, draw card equal to that spell's converted mana cost.
You'll run Sweep Counter in every U legacy deck, what with it being the last member of the power 10. Just like you'll run Fatal Push in all your black modern decks, despite never seeing another revolt card for the remainder of your magic playing career.
But Converge, as a mechanic, is bad. And the only reason anyone at Wizards doesn't write it off for being too narrow to design for and requiring atypical support in the set is because of the Domain Problem above. Domain is a great, well loved mechanic because it has clear design goals, offers you scaling effects that can be fair at any point in the game, and opens up design opportunities for both set designer and deck builder. Domain decks are Domain first and 5-color-good-stuff 2nd. They have a skeleton you build around - having 1x of each basic land type (and later lots of fetches/duals in Modern - $300+ mana bases... oops!). Converge decks... don't exist. At least no more than Sweep decks will dominate legacy thanks to Sweep Counter.
No. Converge requires mana fixing; Domain requires basic land type fixing. This is not a subtle point;
Its exactly my point. I'm still not quite sure how you don't understand what I'm saying. Basic land type fixing is a type of mana fixing. Domain requires basic land type fixing in order to make it work. Converge can be made to work with any type of mana fixing making it a more flexible mechanic in set design.
I'm not claiming that Converge is a better mechanic in general than Domain, I'm just pointing out the fairly large increase in set design flexibility that converge offers.
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Every time I read a comment about "Well if this card had card draw/trample/haste/indestructible/hexproof/life gain...", I think "You're missing the point." They're armchair developer comments that fail to take into account the card's role in the greater Limited and Standard environment. No, it may not be as good as whatever card you're comparing it to. There's a reason for that. Not every burn spell is Lightning Bolt, nor does it need to be or should be.
- Manite
Harlannowick - I understand the difference and have discussed it several times above. As discussed (again, at multiple points above) restrictions are usefil for a mechanic and give it identity and smooth out limited; this is one of the reasons Sunburst was better received than Converge (and sunburst's signature charge or +1/+1 was NEVER USED AGAIN).
But you say that Converge has this additional aspect of flexibility, but don't recognize the clear handicap of limiting it to the cost you pay, rather than being able to grow over time. (Again, your Rainbow Rootwalla is a different mechanic.) This is a limitation - and not a desirable one.
Final Word on Domain: As covered above, the "deck design constraints" of Domain (IE, you need to play all 5 basic lands... well, before duals that is...) is one of the reasons it works as a mechanic. The Domain deck looks different than the Madness deck or the Storm deck. Dredge. Replicate. Tribe X. Cycling. Soulshift. (Almost any keyword or mechanic you can actually remember.) But Converge? Like Sweep, it has no unity. You can throw Converge cards that cost less 3 or less into any number of decks and they need not run any other converge costs. You can (and should) only run one or two cards with Sweep; you don't make a Sweep deck. Any 5 color standard deck is probably better suited to play 5-color goodstuff and run MAYBE 1 or two of the best converge cards than to run a "converge" deck.
Except those aren't "deck design constraints". I ran tribal flames in plenty of 3 color draft decks in invasion, even though I never would max it out. A deck with Suntouched Myr is MORE efficient as 3 colors than 5. Amusingly, the current versions of the Affinity decks don't run any cards with the actual affinity mechanic. I can actually build a deck around converge just as easily as I can Domain, and probably more so because the fixing doesn't have to be basic lands.
You'll run Sweep Counter in every U legacy deck, what with it being the last member of the power 10. Just like you'll run Fatal Push in all your black modern decks, despite never seeing another revolt card for the remainder of your magic playing career.
Kind of like how Engineered Explosives show up in most formats, but you never see any other sunburst cards competitively. Also, Renegade Rallier saw Standard play.
Skyrider Elf is a wierd example because of the X in the cost. Technically, I could spent GU4 and only get a 5/5, or only get a 2/2 if I'm bad at paying my mana costs. You could just as easily spend 8 mana on an engineered explosives and get 5 or 1 counter, so I don't see how one is better than the other. The problem is, its the only way they could have templated the card without it being Skyreach Manta all over again. Elf can be a 2/2 for 2, and manta can't. That's the trade off.
Here's an older card to consider Emblazoned Golem. This is effectively Kicker - Sunburst. Sunburst is a derivation of this, and Converge is derived from there. Its evolution of design. Sunburst served the theme it needed in 5th Dawn, but BFZ's need were different. Sunburst would not have worked on a instant or sorcery, but we have several Converge spells, inc one of every color.
Lastly, for clarity, the pointer cards I was talking about is the typical uncommon 10 card cycle of two colored cards that show up in most sets for limited purposes. Their job is to communicate to drafters what each color pair is about (Resolute Survivors pointing to the R/W exert strategy in HOU, or Whirler Virtuoso pointing to the UR energy build in KAL). They've said that these cards are typically underpowered outside their core strategy so that they will tend to float to the players who need them. Skyrider was there so a UG player would be guided into cards that helped splash into a converge build, while Forerunner of Slaughter pointed people drafting BR into the eldrazi agro build.
Except those aren't "deck design constraints". I ran tribal flames in plenty of 3 color draft decks in invasion, even though I never would max it out.
Oh, sure. As I suggested above, domain plays different in limited than constructed. Sans fetchlands or whatnot, running 3 colors is perfectly fine. If you shock for 2 mana in limited; you're doing good!
I suppose there were some constructed decks that only ran 3-4 colors and ran things like that, too. But the fact you can knock a few bones out of the skeleton and still run is amazing. That's a choice you make that defies how the keyword prompts you to act. It takes discipline that is a symptom of good deck building to do as you did. So Domain helps to teach you how to be a better deck builder.
In contrast, with converge you might run plains and 4 city of brass, and then despite your narrow fixing options, you can technically converge x 5. It's "more flexible" as Harlannowick puts it, in this way... but less creative or interesting.
Amusingly, the current versions of the Affinity decks don't run any cards with the actual affinity mechanic.
Well, when you print Metalcraft and print functionally better Chrome Moxes, you rules go out the window. But the affinity deck is still the affinity deck because the central feature of that deck was to run cheap artifacts for bonuses - whether low costs or higher P.
I can actually build a deck around converge just as easily as I can Domain, and probably more so because the fixing doesn't have to be basic lands.
But you don't. You haven't. 5-color good stuff is just better than Converge, since you can start getting good stuff for cheap in turn 1, while 5x converges need to be on turn 5. Sure, you can 3x converge... but that costs 3, not 2 like Tribal Flames. Necessarily Converge cards are pretty useless on turns 1-3, while Domain is not, and 5 color good stuff are certainly not. If you run a deck with 20 City of Brass-variants, are you jonesing for Skyrider Elf? NO!
Traditionally, 5 color goodstuff is straightford - you run the best cards in all colors, usually cheap and efficient cards and answers. Converge just doesn't, and can't by design, be that.
Domain cards are good at all points in game, growing as you play the game on plan.
5 color good stuff tops out when you have a single city of brass variant; sometimes 2 if you're ambitious.
Converge... doesn't scale enough until late game.
Kind of like how Engineered Explosives show up in most formats, but you never see any other sunburst cards competitively. Also, Renegade Rallier saw Standard play.
Fair enough. We've talked about how Sunburst was poorly designed; but Engineered Explosives - I think - is the exception. It's the best kind of Sunburst, and I think you could print lots of variants thereof using the sunburst mechanic that work. Off the top of my head? Chalice of the Void could use a sunburst variant, and anything that cares about odds/evens could make use of the mechanic as well (If this has odd P, it has FS, if it has even, it has trample; etc.).
I'd love to see a return of Sunburst in an artifact block that works exclusively with +1/+1 counters OR change counters (not both in the same block) that explores this design space.
Skyrider Elf is a wierd example because of the X in the cost. Technically, I could spent GU4 and only get a 5/5, or only get a 2/2 if I'm bad at paying my mana costs. You could just as easily spend 8 mana on an engineered explosives and get 5 or 1 counter, so I don't see how one is better than the other.
What cards are you killing with 5 charge counters on engineered explosives. You're right, of course, they play the same in terms of getting counters; but the # of counters matters for EE, when it doesn't benefit the SE to have less.
The problem is, its the only way they could have templated the card without it being Skyreach Manta all over again. Elf can be a 2/2 for 2, and manta can't. That's the trade off.
I'm sure any of us could have constructed a better converge card here if we wanted to. The question is why would we want to?
Lastly, for clarity, the pointer cards I was talking about is the typical uncommon 10 card cycle of two colored cards that show up in most sets for limited purposes. Their job is to communicate to drafters what each color pair is about (Resolute Survivors pointing to the R/W exert strategy in HOU, or Whirler Virtuoso pointing to the UR energy build in KAL). They've said that these cards are typically underpowered outside their core strategy so that they will tend to float to the players who need them. Skyrider was there so a UG player would be guided into cards that helped splash into a converge build, while Forerunner of Slaughter pointed people drafting BR into the eldrazi agro build.
Pointers pick out draft strategy, not limited to pairs. The Onslaught warlords were pointer cards, as are wedge uncommons in wedge sets, etc.
1. This {referring to Rainbow Rootwalla} is a different mechanic. Wizards might say it's the same mechanic (see Landcycling)
Ability words like converge don't represent a single mechanic. Instants and sorceries with metal craft work differently from permanents. Rainbow Rootwalla is just as much a converge card as bring to light.
Every time I read a comment about "Well if this card had card draw/trample/haste/indestructible/hexproof/life gain...", I think "You're missing the point." They're armchair developer comments that fail to take into account the card's role in the greater Limited and Standard environment. No, it may not be as good as whatever card you're comparing it to. There's a reason for that. Not every burn spell is Lightning Bolt, nor does it need to be or should be.
- Manite
Converge - This creature costs 1 less for each artifact you control.
Converge - This creature deals damage during both the first strike and normal damage step.
Converge - If you spent only mana of one color to play this spell, you win the game.
None of these are are "Converge" as has been established, and none should be given any reasonable design philosophy. I think you'd agree.
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Maelstrom Monument 5
Legendary Artifact (M)
Each spell that would cost less than five mana to cast costs five mana to cast.
Converge - Whenever you cast a spell, draw a card for each color of mana spent to cast it.
Bant Ambassador W
Creature - Human Knight (R)
First strike, vigilance
Converge - When ~ or another creature enters the battlefield, if it was cast from your hand, you gain 1 life for each color of mana spent to cast it.
2/2
Naya Ambassador G
Creature - Cat Warrior (R)
Vigilance, trample
Converge - ~ and each other creature you control enters the battlefield with an additional +1/+1 counter on it for each color of mana spent to cast it.
2/2
Conduit of the Maelstrom 1U
Artifact Creature - Human Wizard (M)
Converge - When ~ enters the battlefield, you may exile an instant or sorcery card with converted mana cost X or less from your hand, where X is the number of colors of mana spent to cast ~.
2, T: Copy the exiled card. You may cast the copy without paying its mana cost.
1/1
Maelstrom's Malice 1BB
Sorcery (R)
Converge - Destroy up to one target creature or planeswalker for each color of mana spent to cast ~.
Prismatic Dissolution 1U
Instant (C)
Converge - Counter target spell unless its controller pays 1 for each color of mana spent to cast ~.
Maelstrom Walker X
Artifact Creature - Construct
Converge - ~ enters the battlefield with a +1/+1 counter on it for each color of mana spent to cast it.
0/0
And that's what I have so far.
I̟̥͍̠ͅn̩͉̣͍̬͚ͅ ̬̬͖t̯̹̞̺͖͓̯̤h̘͍̬e͙̯͈̖̼̮ ̭̬f̺̲̲̪i͙͉̟̩̰r̪̝͚͈̝̥͍̝̲s̼̻͇̘̳͔ͅt̲̺̳̗̜̪̙ ̳̺̥̻͚̗ͅm̜̜̟̰͈͓͎͇o̝̖̮̝͇m̯̻̞̼̫̗͓̤e̩̯̬̮̩n͎̱̪̲̹͖t͇̖s̰̮ͅ,̤̲͙̻̭̻̯̹̰ ̖t̫̙̺̯͖͚̯ͅh͙̯̦̳̗̰̟e͖̪͉̼̯ ̪͕g̞̣͔a̗̦t̬̬͓͙̫̖̭̻e̩̻̯ ̜̖̦̖̤̭͙̬t̞̹̥̪͎͉ͅo͕͚͍͇̲͇͓̺ ̭̬͙͈̣̻t͈͍͙͓̫̖͙̩h̪̬̖̙e̗͈ ̗̬̟̞̺̤͉̯ͅa̦̯͚̙̜̮f͉͙̲̣̞̼t̪̤̞̣͚e̲͉̳̥r͇̪̙͚͓l̥̞̞͎̹̯̹ͅi͓̬f̮̥̬̞͈ͅe͎ ̟̩̤̳̠̯̩̯o̮̘̲p̟͚̣̞͉͓e͍̩̣n͔̼͕͚̜e̬̱d̼̘͎̖̹͍̮̠,͖̺̭̱̮ ̣̲͖̬̪̭̥a̪͚n̟̲̝̤̤̞̗d̘̱̗͇̮͕̳͕͔ ͖̞͉͎t̹̙͎h̰̱͉̗e̪̞̱̝̹̩ͅ ̠̱̩̭̦p̯̙e͓o̳͚̰̯̺̱̰͔̘p̬͎̱̣̼̩͇l̗̟̖͚̠e̱͉͔̱̦̬̟̙ ̖͚̪͔̼̦w̺̖̤̱e͖̗̻̦͓̖̘̜r̭̥e͔̹̫̱͕̦̰͕ ̗͔̠p̠̗͍͍̱̳̠r̰͔͎̰o͉̥͓̰͚̥s̟͚̹̱͔̣t͉̙̳̖͖̪̮r̥̘̥͙̹a͉̟̫̟̳̠̟̭t͈̜̰͈͎e̞̣̭̲̬ ͚̗̯̟͙i͍͖̰̘̦͖͉ṇ̮̻̯̦̲̩͍ ̦̮͚̫̤t͉͖̫͕ͅͅh͙̮̻̘̣̮̼e͕̺ ͙l͕̠͎̰̥i̲͓͉̲g̫̳̟͈͇̖h̠̦̖t͓̯͎̗ ̳̪̘̟̙̩̦o̫̲f̙͔̰̙̠ ̹̪̗͇̯t͖̼̼͉͖̬h̹͇̩e͚̖̺̤͉̹͕̪ ͚͓̭̝̺G͎̗̯̩o̫̯̮̟̮̳̘d̜̲͙̠-̩̳̯̲̗̜P̹̘̥͉̝h͍͈̗̖̝ͅa͍̗̮̼̗r̜̖͇̙̺a̭̺͔̞̳͈o̪̣͓̯̬͙̯̰̗h̖̦͈̥̯͔.͇̣̙̝
However, you could always have Converge be an alternate cost; more or less a keywording of Bringer of the Black Dawn's alt cost.
In any case, your Hybrid designs are too clever for your own good.
I don't think you balanced the scalability, either. Naya Ambassador is always at least a 3/3 that gives at least one +1/+1 counter to each other creature you play. Obscene. A 4/4 for 4 or 5/5 for 4 with bonuses to counters is just stupid.
Final Thought - As is (admittedly like several existing ability words; notably morbid), some converge are when this is played; some are when others are played, and some are ETB. This is confusing, and - quite frankly - sloppy. I want to be clear here: WOTC does this on occasion; and it's sloppy there too. Landfall is more or less the best ability word I've seen them do in a while, and even then they had to slap it on non-permanents.
Edit: How is this different from domain? If the answer is "I can run nonbasic land sources to fix my mana", then all you're doing is diluting domain.
I hope you know that it's a reused mechanic.
I̟̥͍̠ͅn̩͉̣͍̬͚ͅ ̬̬͖t̯̹̞̺͖͓̯̤h̘͍̬e͙̯͈̖̼̮ ̭̬f̺̲̲̪i͙͉̟̩̰r̪̝͚͈̝̥͍̝̲s̼̻͇̘̳͔ͅt̲̺̳̗̜̪̙ ̳̺̥̻͚̗ͅm̜̜̟̰͈͓͎͇o̝̖̮̝͇m̯̻̞̼̫̗͓̤e̩̯̬̮̩n͎̱̪̲̹͖t͇̖s̰̮ͅ,̤̲͙̻̭̻̯̹̰ ̖t̫̙̺̯͖͚̯ͅh͙̯̦̳̗̰̟e͖̪͉̼̯ ̪͕g̞̣͔a̗̦t̬̬͓͙̫̖̭̻e̩̻̯ ̜̖̦̖̤̭͙̬t̞̹̥̪͎͉ͅo͕͚͍͇̲͇͓̺ ̭̬͙͈̣̻t͈͍͙͓̫̖͙̩h̪̬̖̙e̗͈ ̗̬̟̞̺̤͉̯ͅa̦̯͚̙̜̮f͉͙̲̣̞̼t̪̤̞̣͚e̲͉̳̥r͇̪̙͚͓l̥̞̞͎̹̯̹ͅi͓̬f̮̥̬̞͈ͅe͎ ̟̩̤̳̠̯̩̯o̮̘̲p̟͚̣̞͉͓e͍̩̣n͔̼͕͚̜e̬̱d̼̘͎̖̹͍̮̠,͖̺̭̱̮ ̣̲͖̬̪̭̥a̪͚n̟̲̝̤̤̞̗d̘̱̗͇̮͕̳͕͔ ͖̞͉͎t̹̙͎h̰̱͉̗e̪̞̱̝̹̩ͅ ̠̱̩̭̦p̯̙e͓o̳͚̰̯̺̱̰͔̘p̬͎̱̣̼̩͇l̗̟̖͚̠e̱͉͔̱̦̬̟̙ ̖͚̪͔̼̦w̺̖̤̱e͖̗̻̦͓̖̘̜r̭̥e͔̹̫̱͕̦̰͕ ̗͔̠p̠̗͍͍̱̳̠r̰͔͎̰o͉̥͓̰͚̥s̟͚̹̱͔̣t͉̙̳̖͖̪̮r̥̘̥͙̹a͉̟̫̟̳̠̟̭t͈̜̰͈͎e̞̣̭̲̬ ͚̗̯̟͙i͍͖̰̘̦͖͉ṇ̮̻̯̦̲̩͍ ̦̮͚̫̤t͉͖̫͕ͅͅh͙̮̻̘̣̮̼e͕̺ ͙l͕̠͎̰̥i̲͓͉̲g̫̳̟͈͇̖h̠̦̖t͓̯͎̗ ̳̪̘̟̙̩̦o̫̲f̙͔̰̙̠ ̹̪̗͇̯t͖̼̼͉͖̬h̹͇̩e͚̖̺̤͉̹͕̪ ͚͓̭̝̺G͎̗̯̩o̫̯̮̟̮̳̘d̜̲͙̠-̩̳̯̲̗̜P̹̘̥͉̝h͍͈̗̖̝ͅa͍̗̮̼̗r̜̖͇̙̺a̭̺͔̞̳͈o̪̣͓̯̬͙̯̰̗h̖̦͈̥̯͔.͇̣̙̝
Wow, what kind of abomination designs did I miss over the past 4 years?
Thanks; I feel silly. Still, this is just bad domain. Was Converge well received? I know landfall was...
The only issue with some of these is that the power level is pretty all over the place. The Naya Ambassador is super strong if it sticks on the board, Bant Ambassador a little less so. Maelstrom's Malice is also too strong as printed, I think it's be better balanced at 2BB and only hit creatures. I think converge is most interesting when it scales to 3 or more, so the 1U and 1BB don't give a lot of flex in their usage.
I like the design of Maelstrom Monument, in that it taxes everyone, but bonuses you at the same time. Bonus might be OP though. Consider Scry X instead of draw X.
Converge... basically wants you to run City of Brass-effects It's basically a less interesting domain, I'd be surprised if ANYONE said "Oh, boy, now I need a converge deck!"; however Domain decks were straightforward: (1) Green, (2) Domain spells, (3) Maybe run good stuff since you've got all 5 colors. Domain makes Stone Rain relevant in a way it normally isn't.
This feels like someone said "make a NEW mechanic," and they took a preexisting concept and executed it poorly.
If Converse is going to do something to stand apart, it has to do something that wouldn't be more elegant as domain.
Converge was generally unpopular, but that is likely due in large part to being in an environment which didn't well support it and under development of the mechanic in general. MaRo puts it at a 6 on the storm scale.
http://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/making-magic/storm-scale-zendikar-and-battle-zendikar-2016-11-21
- Manite
Note:
Domain - 4.
Sunburst - ????
Make no mistake, Sunburst is poorly designed since it produces 2 different counters depending on whether the card is a creature (WTF WOTC?); but it's an incredible mechanic other than that. If it had been only +1/+1 counters (which "acted" as charge counters, functionally, but had a narrow "if it's animated" bonus effect...) it would be have been great.
Clearwater Goblet, Engineered Explosives, Etched Oracle, Pentad Prism, Skyreach Manta, even Suntouched Myr - great, simple, iconic, innovative designs.
In contrast, Domain - one of the few ability words to be retroactive errataed I think - is full of successes:
http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Search/Default.aspx?action=advanced&text= [Domain]
Tribal Flames, Tromp the Domains, Exploding Borders; just so many clear, interesting cards. And, more importantly, the deck building challenges were elegant and iconic: Run all five basic land types; have ways of getting them out.
I'm convinced the only reason we don't see Domain be pushed is because in constructed (well, modern), it's always a turn 3 thing, while in standard it's a turn 5 thing, due to dual lands. It's difficult to create a suitable standard-playable domain spell that isn't broke when you get +2 to the effect on turn 3. I say "difficult", but not impossible. The solution is simple - print rare dual lands in the same set. Immediate synergy. Print suitable fetches and/or search in limited, but rely upon dual rares in constructed to do the work.
Domain offers so many clear, interesting deck building challenges in both llimited and constructed that it's a great, overlooked, mechanic to evaluate. Look at Tromp the Domains; a fine limited Overrun variant that turns into the best constructed Overrun variant in a suitable 5 color deck. Designing that kind of card is incredibly difficult, but perhaps the most rewarding. ANYONE can construct a dumb limited bomb. ANYONE can construct an overpowered constucted bomb. But Wizards designed a fair constructed bomb (at least casual) that performed suitably well in limited.
Converge is literally sunburst without being tied to +1/+1 counters (and sometimes it was, see Skyrider Elf and Tajuru Stalwart), so same basic effect with more options for variance of effects and the kinds of cards that can use it. Sunburst, if printed today, wouldn't be keyworded (it would be an ability work like converge) because of the variance in counters and sunburst doesn't fit in a world where multiple colored suns aren't a prominent feature.
I don't understand how you consider sunburst an incredible mechanic but have a problem with converge?
Converge is akin to Fabricate being ability worded "Makebricate - When this creature enters the battlefield, create 4 servo tokens or draw 2 cards."
From a design perspective, the more open-ended your mechanic, the more it's every other mechanic and cuts off original design space. See Kicker, and the mechanics that could be kicker: Evoke, replicate, etc.
Is Domain too open-ended? I think not; Domain is tight insofar as it always cares about the same 5 land types. The deck that runs domain has a clear, cohesive strategy. It doesn't ONLY run domain cards, but it gets the most out of Domain cards if it gets it's lands right.
Sunburst, as a mechanic, was best done on Engineered Explosives. How many counters you put on matters, and you get to choose by how you pay for the spell. Admittedly, most other Sunburst cards were "pay as many colors of mana as you can", which isn't very impressive (BUT it does allow the cards to be played in narrower decks... again, less unity). But the ability to choose how many of [relevant counter] is on the thing is great design space.
But Converge? Converge is just bad domain insofar as (a) you can't get it off with just 3 lands, and (b) there is no "deck building unity" other than "play mana fixing"; distinct from "play basic land types" (AKA, the main mechanic of the game!). Landfall, Domain, Tribal - all their mechanics play the same. Different cards do different things, but the mechanics themselves play the same.
Etched Oracle and Suntouched Myr work very similar, mechanically; the difference in the card just is how Etched Oracle expertly uses the mechanic of +1/+1 counters.
In contrast, Skyrider Elf is no Engineered Explosives; it actually uses Converge as a Drawback! Unacceptable! People used to play Fist Of Suns so they could bank Pentad Prism mana; AKA they wanted to pay more to scale the effect. But Skyrider Elf? Converge actually says "I'm sorry fellas, X is no greater than 3, and only if you jump through these hoops."
Converge is undisciplined Sunburst, and Sunburst is undisciplined in itself. As a mechanic... it's just not very interesting, offering no unique deck building space. The fact you can have a Converge lava axe variant just isn't all that interestinng. Sunburst came in a block where the counters mattered. There were multiple ways of interacting with them. Modular - Suburst was a thing! There was a unity there that doesn't exist with Converge, and like similar shotty "we need a new mechanic" mechanics, it's just sloppy.
Thats an apples/oranges comparison. Skyrider Elf should be compared to a card like Suntouched Myr, a more similar card, and even without flying, the elf can be cast as a 2/2 for 2 up to a 5/5 for 5, depending on your needs, where the myr is 3 to cast even as a 1/1.
The Variable play of Engineered Explosives would be better compared to Painful Truths, where the card will drain and draw you 1, 2, or 3 depending on how you tap your mana, or Radiant Flames which I can use as an Electrickery, Pyroclasm, or Sweltering Suns, depending on what will kill more of my opponents creatures or keep mine alive.
You're angry at Converge for being too loose a keyword, when it isn't a keyword. The point of ability words (Converge, Rally, Morbid, Landfall) is to draw attention to cards that care about similar game effects but with different results. A keyword has the same execution (costs and numerical values not withstanding) on every card, though some cards will check the output of the keyword afterwards. Domain (another ability word) is no more or less directive than Converge; one encourages you to play more land types, the other encourages you to play more colors of mana in your deck. They actually work well together (and with Sunburst too).
I'm not saying converge has to be your favorite mechanic. I just think you are looking at it from the perspective of someone who hasn't played with it, and as someone who has and still does (I run Radiant Flames in my standard because it is flexible), though it was not a great fit for the environment it was in, I can say that it played well.
Re: Painful Truths - if you're not playing this as a 3 mana ambition's cost, you're losing the game (one way or another). No one says "I think I need only 2 cards this turn."
I'm annoyed Converge PLAYS DIFFERENT from well designed ability words like Domain and Landfall, both of which change how you play the game, often at multiple points across deck building and in-game; limited and constructed. Converge... changes pretty much nothing... except making you pay attention how you tap your lands. WTF? And what do I get for "meticulously" slapping 20 city of brass variants in my deck? Not a single memorable card or effect or fun.
Suntouched Myr is a 3/3 for 3 during a time in magic's history where that wasn't a thing, and an easy gray ogre - innovative, straightforward design that plays a strong limited role and had a fringe shot at constructed. Tajuru Stalwart is at beast a 3/4 in the best creature color. Would be play a 3/4 for 2G in limited? Sure. Constructed? Maybe if it had support??? But this isn't that. RWU literally couldn't get better p/t for the cost than a 3/3 at the time, and in a pinch it could be a 3 mana 2/2 or 1/1. But your converge fella? Woolly Thoctar exists. So it's not doing anything new, not simple (look at all that text for what Suntouched Myr does in a keyword), has is genuinely bad compared to existing cards. The underlined point is why Converge has an uphill battle. It wastes so much time for so little return that it's not funny.
I'm gonna go into some other things here, but you keep bringing up Engineered Explosives (a rare clearly designed for constructed) and comparing to a uncommon beater meant to push UG drafters towards a converge build in limited. If they just wanted a "gets bigger flyer" the could have reprinted Nimbus Swimmer, but that's not what they wanted for the draft strategy pointer card.
Oops, yes, I forgot Skyreach Manta[card existed and is a direct comparison to the Elf, and is just as limited on the top end. It doesn't scale down its cost though, and dies to artifact removal.
As an aside, look up crystalline crawler. It uses the Converge template, but is effectively sunburst. The question is, is Sunburst better because it does one thing, or is converge better because it can do many things? More on that below.
You're also missing the comparison of Wolly Thoctar to Tajuru Stalwart. Thoctar is a 5/4 for 3 in Naya. Salwart is a 3/4 for 3 in Naya, Bant, Abzan or Sultai, and has synergy with Elf and Ally decks. It trades raw hitting power for multiple angles of flexibility.
And, yes, I would prefer Painful Truths to a 3 mana Ambition's cost if I happened to be sitting at 2 or 3 life.
But that's the whole point of a Keyword vs an Ability word. By that arguement, landfall is bad because every landfall card doesn't have the same trigger when a land etbs or domain is bad because every domain card doesn't get the same bonus for having multiple land types.
Like I said before, keywords are meant to communicate a single thing to save card text and occasionally be referenced by other abilities. Ability words are meant to point players to similar abilities on cards without being locked into a single execution of that ability. In fact, if Suntouched were made today, it would probably be an ability word executed almost exactly as converge is. They wanted to push multiple colored play (and support Khans block in standard) but didn't want to just be tied to putting counters on things.
As you can tell, I'm not a fan of ability words in most situations. I understand the rationale; it's a signature that the cards work in such and such a way, and this can really help smooth out limited. But Keywords do this more. Suntouched Myr VS Tajuru Stalwart is an excellent example of this, as the former tells you everything you need to know about the card (and gameplay choices) you need to know in one word, while the latter makes you read a block of text.
I want to be clear here: I began playing magic before pointer cards existed. Around Ravnica players began to speculate that Wizards was making a "power uncommon" for each guild; IE a competitively costed constructed card that fits the guild. I suspect this is the origin of "strategy pointer cards" that tell you what the two colors are doing.
The idea of pointer cards is quite interesting; the problem is that since I came back earlier this year, it's become clear that often these pointer cards are just incredibly poorly designed. Given these should be among the first cards designed, it's unacceptable.
Compare Decimator Beetle and Ridgescale Tusker. The latter is simple, elegant, and - arguably - fringe playable (beast for beast tribal, and provides an anthem effect + a large body for a fair price).
But Decimator Beetle is probably most famous for it's being worded to confuse people. I remember people reviewing the set on youtube and no one read it as it works. The attack triggers would have needed to be 2 separate sentences to be clear. You could argue that Decimator Beetle suffers from the first line of text being a counterfactual -1/-1 mechanic (Scar 1?) that was dekeyworded for marketing reasons (players don't like negative keywords...). But these marketing reasons are well known and so the design team created their own problem here. But the 2nd 2 abilities are worded in such a way as to invite confusion. But set this aside; the card is not constructed playable - fringe or otherwise. It's a poor tribe (one that could have gotten tribal support instead of this clunky scar mechanic), it's p/t is not competitive for the cost (It's a 3/3 for 5!), it's ability points you to playing other "scar" creatures... maybe 3-4 of which has any competitive potential. And, most importantly, it does not have any immediate effect on the board.
Now, you suggest Skyrider Elf is a pointer uncommon. I kind of doubt this, as Converge isn't a color-ed mechanic as far as I can tell. (Unless the idea is that it's 5 color green/blue, and other color pairs... don't get converge? That would just be odd, since blue doesn't care about being 5 colors as part of it's color pie, while green clearly does.) But let's assume it does. What does it tell me about the archetype? +1/+1 counters matter? (NOPE! Then we'd have Sunburst.) Flying matters? (Favorable Winds would have been a better representation of this, and is clearly a casual favorite and fringe constructed playable.) How about 5-colors matter? If that's the case, then the ONLY thing that makes it a pointer card is it's inclusion of the Converge mechanic. Elves matter? (Again, better options. I'm a big fan of uncommon lords for this very reason.).
The Skyrider Elf vs Nimbus Swimmer point is rather important too; wizards accidentally or intentionally printed a functionally worse (in non-tribal) situation card. If this is supposed to be a pointer card, this is quite a slap in the face to players. It's like putting Open Fire in your marketing materials; unthinkable.
Let's look at two competent ability-word pointer cards:
Name 3GG
Creature - Treefolk (U)
When ETB cultivate.
Landfall - Whenever a land enters the battlefield under your control, put a +1/+1 counter on ~.
1/3
Name 2 5G
Creature - Beast (U)
When ETB cultivate.
Domain - This gets +1/+1 for each basic land type you control.
1/1
Can we do the same for Converge?
Name 3 4G
Creature - Treefolk (U)
Converge - This enters the battlefield with a +1/+1 counter for each color of mana spent to play it.
3: Add 2 mana in any combination of colors to your mana pool.
0/1
Domain cares about having things; the enabler gets you those things.
Landfall cares about something happening; the enabler makes it happen.
Converge cares about what you paid for it's mana cost. The enabler... helps you pay costs next turn? But if you need this ability, your uncommon ETB poorly. Maybe you want to play two converge spells a turn, and Name 3 helps you do that. But that's only after you can already produce enough mana to play this converge spell!
At best Skyrider Elf wants to be a payoff card; "Oh, you're running converge, have this converge beatstick." It has more in common with classic "power uncommons" putrefy or mortify than it does Decimator Beetle. But even then, it does this poorly, as given Nimbus Swimmer it doesn't feel like Converge is paying off, but shackling you. Can you make Converge feel good? I don't know; Sunburst never really felt like a great mechanic, but Engineered Explosives used the restrictions of the mechanic in such a way that it has elevated the mechanic simply because it's a good card. Should we expect this at uncommon? I would argue "yes" if this is supposed to be the signature of the mechanic. So let's build just such a card:
Converge Wizard 3UG
Creature - Treefolk Wizard (U)
Converge - When this enters the battlefield, put a +1/+1 counter on it for each color of mana used to cast it, then if it has power less than the number of cards in target opponent's hand, draw a card for each card in that player's hand.
1/2
Of course...
Converge Wizard 3UG
Creature - Treefolk Wizard (U)
Sunburst
When this enters the battlefield, if it has power less than the number of cards in target opponent's hand, draw a card for each card in that player's hand.
1/2
So from a design perspective, Converge is just a poor Sunburst card here. To make a good signature payoff Converge card, you need to do something Sunburst doesn't already do better. So no counters; thus we need a spell.
Converge for the kill 2BG
Instant (U)
Converge - Create a 1/1 green insect creature token for each color of mana used to cast this spell.
Then, target creature gets -1/-1 for each insect you control.
Again, this feels poorly designed. The best converge cards are clearly green, and to make them "fully converageable" (Withtout Fist of Suns) they need to cost 5 mana. That's an Obscene design restriction. Since all converge spells are effectively gold, making them cost anything but 1 mana of a color feels real bad, as if you can't produce all 5 already you're already feeling bad. If I have WRGU I can't play this! Landfall and Domain don't suffer this problem!
In closing, I think it's clear that Keywords > ability words for simplicity. Perhaps I look back on Sunburst favorably simply because of what it did with one or two cards; that's on me. But mechanically, the things that Converge cares about are hard to design cards around. Mana cost matters. It's a 1-then-done effect; not repeatable. It scales by what you have when you cast it, it doesn't scale later on. (This is the big difference between creatures with converge and domain, as converge get +1/+1 counters, while domain has p/t = # of basic landtypes in play, and thus scales over time.) So yes, Converge is a Sunburst mechanic that can work with instants and sorceries, and do scalable 1-shot ETB effects. It can do more. It's easier (in some ways) to get a full sunburst/convergence than full domain (again, except in modern, thanks duals + fetches!). But the very fact that the mechanic is tied to casting, rather than things in play (like domain) or a repeatable effect like things being put into play (like landfall) is what makes it feel bad. As a mechanic, it's narrow without many advantages as the comparable mechanic Domain.
Small nitpick, you actually need to read a few words. Sunburst is one of those strange keywords where it works differently depending on the type of permanent it's put on. A noncreature permanent with sunburst gets charge counters while a creature permanent with sunburst gets +1/+1 counters. It isn't enough to simply read sunburst, you also have to read the typeline and know how sunburst cares about the typeline.
In my experience, the pointer cards are some of the last to be designed as you need to first explore what the color pair is doing before you can design a card which highlights the strategy. You can do it the other way around, but doing so is going to fail a lot as you tinker with the set and realize that your UB limited decks aren't actually about mill after all, and instead are a midrangey tempo deck or something. In my experience, only about half of planned archetypes end up working in any meaningful sense once you have fleshed out the commons. The other half just don't work or can't be made to work given the other half of archetypes. Once I know what isn't working, I tend to look at what exists and does work and then try to edit stuff to highlight the stuff that works well. Even among the archetypes that are working, I've found its better to design the archetype supporting cards after all the filler in order to design the card to full an important role (whole) in the archetype.
tldr: archetype highlighting cards are almost never the first cards I design and I don't think there is any reliable way to try to design them first.
Yep. You are correct. Skyrider elf is hinting at a UGxxx deck that was supposed to be supported in BFZ. Unfortunately, green was so weak in that set that the archetype never really worked.
Nimbus swimmer is an X cmc x-2/x-2 creature. Skyrider Elf is an X cmc x/x creature that requires multi color and maxes out at 5/5. They are entirely different designs. Neither is functionally worse than the other. They go in different decks.
That is an interesting point of view which I don't personally share. Converge never felt like a drawback to me
You understand that sunburst, the mechanic you are defending, features identical design restrictions. What is more, sunburst features more design restrictions as sunburst must be put on permanents.
From a design standpoint, converge is more flexible than domain. Domain requires specific kinds of support cards to amp up the number of basic land types players can reasonably get in limited. Converge only requires mana fixing in general to support.
- Manite
Re: GU being 5 color: I know little about the format, but if this is true... it's incompetent.
Would you ever pay 4UG for Skyrider Elf? How about Nimbus Swimmer? That's what I mean; HERE converge is shackling you. It's quite obscene, actually. Again, compare to Engineered Explosives - a card that ties the counters to the keyword (and thus saves a lot of text space on the card in doing so). Admittedly both Converge and Sunburst proper are "restrictive" as they're more like additional costs you have to pay while casting to get the effect. In terms of mechanics, that's just weird. It's like an esoteric kicker.
The big difference is the amount of game text you get for the same effect. Quite frankly, I've been in favor of printing a modular or graft mechanic in a set merely to save text space on cards you want to put +1/+1 counters on.
For example, Spike Feeder shows you how spikes were templated; but if we returned to spikes, I'd just throw Graft on new Spikes. Not because I want to move +1/+1 counters, although that's a nice bonus and flavorfully consistent with spikes, but mainly because it saves text box space.
So yes - the very fact that Sunburst is a keyword is what makes it preferable to Converge. Both mechanics have problems, but Sunburst's come with a clear advantage.
As demonstrated by the difference between Name and Name 3 above, it's not.
I've spoken earlier in the thread as to how it's easier (in some senses) to get 5 colors than to get 5 basic lands, but domain permanents (which occupy about a half of cards printed with them) have consistently greater gameplay. You can cost Domain cards less than 5 and have them "Grow" to 5; Converge simply doesn't allow this.
Sure, my point was that you basically always have to design them later in the set and there designs are typically highly constrained. Of course, this doesn't change the fact that Decimator beetle is poorly worded and poorly implemented as a design. I don't think markee uncommons in general are poorly designed though.
In what way is it incompetent? Do you find it incompetent in Amonkhet as well which does the same trick of having a GUxxx archetype?
The literal number of words of rules text on a design isn't really a concern. There are plenty of really grockable cards with a lot of text and plenty of short rules text cards that aren't in any way grockable. The concern in design is excessive wordiness (as in cards with really long rules texts, >4 lines) not word use in general. Don't be afraid to use words, even more words than you absolutely need to, just try to avoid really long rules texts.
Converge does allow it though, WotC just didn't explore that design space because converge was underexplored in general. For example...
Rainbow Rootwalla 2G
Creature - Lizard {C}
Trample
Converge - 5 : Rainbow Rootwalla gets +1/+1 for each color of mana spent to activate this ability. Activate this ability only once each turn.
2/2
...And in any case, you seem to have ignored my main point. Converge and domain require comparable amounts of color fixing to make work, but domain requires specific types of color fixing which interact with basic land types in some way. Cards like evolving wilds for example. Converge doesn't have this constraint giving you more control over it in design and development. Your color fixing can be whatever you need it to be, it doesn't need to fetch basic lands or give basic land types to lands.
- Manite
I think "Does this have a realistic shot in at least some deck?" is a fair test here. All of the Onslaught lords fit this. All of them are STILL constructed playable in tribal commander decks.
I realize you and I disagree on whether cards should be designed for constructed; you seem perfectly willing to be all over the place with powerlevel, while I argue that cards should be at least "fringe playable" in some format, meaning they have to be at least tier 2/3 and not obsoleted by existing cards (again, with a few exceptions each year if you're course-correcting). In light of this disagreement, you might be okay with a pointer/signature card that is great in a limited strategy but wouldn't make even the most casual commander deck of anyone with a budget of over $5. But that's a tough sell for cards that are supposed to sell a limited archetype. If a pointer card looks bad to the casual uninitiated player, then I don't think you can say it succeeds at pointing at anything. (I'm sure there have been a few high profile cases of this, but I can't think of any.)
As discussed above, green is 5 color by color pie. Blue just is not. So to say that GU is "5 color" is like saying BW is Deathouch-themed. This cannot be the case, since white doesn't get deathtouch and nothing about white says it gets deatbtouch. Blue doesn't get 5-color matters (any more than any other non-green color and much less than green). If your set bleeds a mechanic for block to all 5 colors (domain, threshold, flashback, cycling, scry, Sweep... really pretty much any block mechanic outside of Ravnica-style guilds/tribes/etc.) then all 5 colors (or most of them) get it.
This isn't a subtle point: If U flavorfully does not get converge any more than any other color, making converge exclusively GU Simic's mechanic does not work. This is apparent in the card in question; there's no way anyone with a halfway decent idea of the color pair's identity would conclude that Converge is being used as a GU mechanic; if anything they'd see it as being used as a 5-color mechanic. Which makes sense since it is a 5 color mechanic! Sunburst was an artifact mechanic that made you play 5 colors. Adding UG to the corner doesn't make it a 2-color mechanic.
I can assure you it is. Ice Cauldron
Even beyond simple templating issues (which are relevant enough to warrant name and creature type changes!), reading text takes precious time in limited, so a card with 3 lines of text you need to read is from a design perspective prohibitory in a way that one with a single world (and 3 lines of reminder text) is not, merely because every Sunburst card (I know, charge vs +1/+1 counters - it's not great, but comparably competent) works the same, while every Converge card CAN work differently.
1. This is a different mechanic. Wizards might say it's the same mechanic (see Landcycling) for marketing, but given how unpopular Converge was and the ever-present marketing push to have new keywords to put on sales material, one would have to have quite bizarre priorities to print that card.
2. It's not an especially compelling or innovative mechanic (I realize you're not trying to make it be; but this is sort of what all mechanics should strive to be, especially if we're not allowed to print drawback mechanics anymore!)
3. There's far less design space. See the Domain card that "works like this" - It can get +5/+0 for 3, but no Converge 2.0 card can do this.
No. Converge requires mana fixing; Domain requires basic land type fixing. This is not a subtle point; in fact I suspect it's the primary design motivator for moving from Domain - a popular mechanic - to Converge - an unpopular one. Wizards realized that you can get full domain in Modern on turn 3 (or 2... or possibly 1, I don't even know anymore.) with just 2 fetchlands and a basic. In contrast, full Converge needs 5 different mana. Yes, you can use non-basic-land-typed lands and various other mana fixing to get to 5, but you need 5 mana.
As discussed previously, Wizards CANNOT EASILY design standard-playable Domain cards that cost less than 5 without them being FAR GREATER in a fetchland-enabled Modern than in a slow non-fetchland, non-dualland standard This makes it VERY DIFFICULT for them to design GOOD Domain cards for Standard that aren't OVERPOWERED for Modern.
Imagine this scenario: Decimator beetle and every "Scar" creature is absolutely unplayable in standard (ironically probably true) but lead to a reliably turn 3 combo win in Modern!
That's the Domain Problem. Converge avoids that because to get a X5 Converge, your spell needs to be 5 mana. Mind you, this doesn't mean it's incredibly easy to design constructed playable Converge cards, as is evidenced by the set of cards we have printed, but it means it's at least easier to print them.
Mind you, the Domain problem is not insurmountable; Tromp the Domains did it a while ago. Furthermore, you could actually print duallands and fetchlands in standard (in one block or two side-to-side) to allow for STANDARD x5 Domain spells and balance them accordingly. AS DISCUSSED EARLIER, this is a great design, as it allows your cards to be less oppressive in limited than constructed. See Tribal Flames, Exploding Borders - the former being very popular, and the latter being popular in commander.
Final Word on Domain: As covered above, the "deck design constraints" of Domain (IE, you need to play all 5 basic lands... well, before duals that is...) is one of the reasons it works as a mechanic. The Domain deck looks different than the Madness deck or the Storm deck. Dredge. Replicate. Tribe X. Cycling. Soulshift. (Almost any keyword or mechanic you can actually remember.) But Converge? Like Sweep, it has no unity. You can throw Converge cards that cost less 3 or less into any number of decks and they need not run any other converge costs. You can (and should) only run one or two cards with Sweep; you don't make a Sweep deck. Any 5 color standard deck is probably better suited to play 5-color goodstuff and run MAYBE 1 or two of the best converge cards than to run a "converge" deck.
Can good converge cards be designed? Sure! I can design a Sweep card right now that you want in your vintage deck.
Sweep Counter U
Instant (R)
Sweep — Return any number of lands you control to their owner's hand. Counter target spell unless its controller pays 2 for each land returned in this way. If it is countered in this way, draw card equal to that spell's converted mana cost.
You'll run Sweep Counter in every U legacy deck, what with it being the last member of the power 10. Just like you'll run Fatal Push in all your black modern decks, despite never seeing another revolt card for the remainder of your magic playing career.
But Converge, as a mechanic, is bad. And the only reason anyone at Wizards doesn't write it off for being too narrow to design for and requiring atypical support in the set is because of the Domain Problem above. Domain is a great, well loved mechanic because it has clear design goals, offers you scaling effects that can be fair at any point in the game, and opens up design opportunities for both set designer and deck builder. Domain decks are Domain first and 5-color-good-stuff 2nd. They have a skeleton you build around - having 1x of each basic land type (and later lots of fetches/duals in Modern - $300+ mana bases... oops!). Converge decks... don't exist. At least no more than Sweep decks will dominate legacy thanks to Sweep Counter.
Its exactly my point. I'm still not quite sure how you don't understand what I'm saying. Basic land type fixing is a type of mana fixing. Domain requires basic land type fixing in order to make it work. Converge can be made to work with any type of mana fixing making it a more flexible mechanic in set design.
I'm not claiming that Converge is a better mechanic in general than Domain, I'm just pointing out the fairly large increase in set design flexibility that converge offers.
- Manite
But you say that Converge has this additional aspect of flexibility, but don't recognize the clear handicap of limiting it to the cost you pay, rather than being able to grow over time. (Again, your Rainbow Rootwalla is a different mechanic.) This is a limitation - and not a desirable one.
Except those aren't "deck design constraints". I ran tribal flames in plenty of 3 color draft decks in invasion, even though I never would max it out. A deck with Suntouched Myr is MORE efficient as 3 colors than 5. Amusingly, the current versions of the Affinity decks don't run any cards with the actual affinity mechanic. I can actually build a deck around converge just as easily as I can Domain, and probably more so because the fixing doesn't have to be basic lands.
Kind of like how Engineered Explosives show up in most formats, but you never see any other sunburst cards competitively. Also, Renegade Rallier saw Standard play.
Skyrider Elf is a wierd example because of the X in the cost. Technically, I could spent GU4 and only get a 5/5, or only get a 2/2 if I'm bad at paying my mana costs. You could just as easily spend 8 mana on an engineered explosives and get 5 or 1 counter, so I don't see how one is better than the other. The problem is, its the only way they could have templated the card without it being Skyreach Manta all over again. Elf can be a 2/2 for 2, and manta can't. That's the trade off.
Here's an older card to consider Emblazoned Golem. This is effectively Kicker - Sunburst. Sunburst is a derivation of this, and Converge is derived from there. Its evolution of design. Sunburst served the theme it needed in 5th Dawn, but BFZ's need were different. Sunburst would not have worked on a instant or sorcery, but we have several Converge spells, inc one of every color.
Lastly, for clarity, the pointer cards I was talking about is the typical uncommon 10 card cycle of two colored cards that show up in most sets for limited purposes. Their job is to communicate to drafters what each color pair is about (Resolute Survivors pointing to the R/W exert strategy in HOU, or Whirler Virtuoso pointing to the UR energy build in KAL). They've said that these cards are typically underpowered outside their core strategy so that they will tend to float to the players who need them. Skyrider was there so a UG player would be guided into cards that helped splash into a converge build, while Forerunner of Slaughter pointed people drafting BR into the eldrazi agro build.
Oh, sure. As I suggested above, domain plays different in limited than constructed. Sans fetchlands or whatnot, running 3 colors is perfectly fine. If you shock for 2 mana in limited; you're doing good!
I suppose there were some constructed decks that only ran 3-4 colors and ran things like that, too. But the fact you can knock a few bones out of the skeleton and still run is amazing. That's a choice you make that defies how the keyword prompts you to act. It takes discipline that is a symptom of good deck building to do as you did. So Domain helps to teach you how to be a better deck builder.
In contrast, with converge you might run plains and 4 city of brass, and then despite your narrow fixing options, you can technically converge x 5. It's "more flexible" as Harlannowick puts it, in this way... but less creative or interesting.
Sure.
Well, when you print Metalcraft and print functionally better Chrome Moxes, you rules go out the window. But the affinity deck is still the affinity deck because the central feature of that deck was to run cheap artifacts for bonuses - whether low costs or higher P.
But you don't. You haven't. 5-color good stuff is just better than Converge, since you can start getting good stuff for cheap in turn 1, while 5x converges need to be on turn 5. Sure, you can 3x converge... but that costs 3, not 2 like Tribal Flames. Necessarily Converge cards are pretty useless on turns 1-3, while Domain is not, and 5 color good stuff are certainly not. If you run a deck with 20 City of Brass-variants, are you jonesing for Skyrider Elf? NO!
Traditionally, 5 color goodstuff is straightford - you run the best cards in all colors, usually cheap and efficient cards and answers. Converge just doesn't, and can't by design, be that.
Domain cards are good at all points in game, growing as you play the game on plan.
5 color good stuff tops out when you have a single city of brass variant; sometimes 2 if you're ambitious.
Converge... doesn't scale enough until late game.
Fair enough. We've talked about how Sunburst was poorly designed; but Engineered Explosives - I think - is the exception. It's the best kind of Sunburst, and I think you could print lots of variants thereof using the sunburst mechanic that work. Off the top of my head? Chalice of the Void could use a sunburst variant, and anything that cares about odds/evens could make use of the mechanic as well (If this has odd P, it has FS, if it has even, it has trample; etc.).
I'd love to see a return of Sunburst in an artifact block that works exclusively with +1/+1 counters OR change counters (not both in the same block) that explores this design space.
What cards are you killing with 5 charge counters on engineered explosives. You're right, of course, they play the same in terms of getting counters; but the # of counters matters for EE, when it doesn't benefit the SE to have less.
I'm sure any of us could have constructed a better converge card here if we wanted to. The question is why would we want to?
Sure? Honestly, any Keyword X - Keyword Y (or other weird values) are nonsense gimmicks.
Modular 0, Sunburst. 'nuff said.
Pointers pick out draft strategy, not limited to pairs. The Onslaught warlords were pointer cards, as are wedge uncommons in wedge sets, etc.
Ability words like converge don't represent a single mechanic. Instants and sorceries with metal craft work differently from permanents. Rainbow Rootwalla is just as much a converge card as bring to light.
- Manite
Converge - This creature costs 1 less for each artifact you control.
Converge - This creature deals damage during both the first strike and normal damage step.
Converge - If you spent only mana of one color to play this spell, you win the game.
None of these are are "Converge" as has been established, and none should be given any reasonable design philosophy. I think you'd agree.