Since the existing fetches (for example, Wooded Foothills) can get two land types, presumably a land that could only fetch one type can be done easily. Eliminating the "pay 1 life" penalty of the 2-color fetches is a start but probably not enough to balance out being able to only search for one land type instead of two.
As a start, consider the following: Magma Pit
Land T, Sacrifice Magma Pit: Search your library for a Mountain and put that card onto the battlefield. Scry 1.
Scry has sort of become a default add-on to help up the strength of a card that seems underpowered, but there are other options. You could have each land generate an effect related to the color, making them quite different. For example, the above land could instead deal 1 damage to target creature as replacement for the Scry trigger.
Things I briefly considered that are too powerful:
-fetch two lands instead of one. (LOL)
-fetch two, one ETB and one into hand.
-fetch two, one ETB tapped, and one into hand. (has potential, actually)
-fetch plus draw a card. (nope nope nope)
Magma Pit
Land T, Sacrifice ~: Search your library for a Mountain and put that card onto the battlefield.
is already more powerful than a basic mountain in a deck that has duals. Or brainstorm effects. I don't get how you think this is underpowered. Especially when you've already added "Scry 1" onto it.
2 problems, first R&D has said they don't want to make lands that don't at least tap for 1 colorless mana, I know the recent fetches don't, but they were reprints and needed to balance the modern mana base.
Second, what significance would this have in standard? Unless it shared a set with dual lands of 2 types Ala shocklands? If not why would you put in a land whose only function is to replace itself with another land, why not just play a mountain? And don't give me any of that "deck thinning" talk, running 4 or less isn't going to thin your deck in any noticeably way and if you run more you are running at least 2 colors and if you can't fetch the duals then again you are essentially doing nothing, and likely those slots would be better off stabilizing your mana base than thinning your deck.
If anything I would like to see either a cycle of shard or wedge fetchlands, not sure exactly how you'd balance them or even if you could. The panoramas were nice but too slow and just copying the existing fetches but with a third option seems too strong and would be strictly better and make the existing fetches obsolete.
Also a fetchland that could get any land would be nice, even if it enterd the field tapped, you had to up the penalty to 2 life or had to bring the fetched land in tapped.
Since the existing fetches (for example, Wooded Foothills) can get two land types, presumably a land that could only fetch one type can be done easily. Eliminating the "pay 1 life" penalty of the 2-color fetches is a start but probably not enough to balance out being able to only search for one land type instead of two.
As a start, consider the following: Magma Pit
Land T, Sacrifice Magma Pit: Search your library for a Mountain and put that card onto the battlefield. Scry 1.
Even if you removed the scry, this is ridiculously overpowered, more than the fetches.
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"Sometimes, the situation is outracing a threat, sometimes it's ignoring it, and sometimes it involves sideboarding in 4x Hope//Pray." --Doug Linn
2 problems, first R&D has said they don't want to make lands that don't at least tap for 1 colorless mana, I know the recent fetches don't, but they were reprints and needed to balance the modern mana base.
Actually, the current philosophy is that lands should either produce mana, or fetch something that does. Basically, by playing any land, you should have more access to mana than you did before, and this card is fine on that front.
Magma Pit
Land T, Sacrifice ~: Search your library for a Mountain and put that card onto the battlefield.
is already more powerful than a basic mountain in a deck that has duals. Or brainstorm effects. I don't get how you think this is underpowered.
It is less powerful than Wooded Foothills, that's the point I'm trying to make. You're taking away half of what you get from Wooded Foothills, so what do you get back in return?
Alright, let me put it this way. Suppose the card I propose is:
Magma Pit
Land T, Sacrifice, Pay 1 Life: Search your library for a Mountain and put it onto the battlefield. Shuffle your library.
This would be undeniably much worse than Wooded Foothills or Bloodstained Mire, because it has all the same penalties but the good part is cut in half. So how do you make this balanced to be on the same level of strength as Wooded Foothills?
I think there's quite a few different directions you could go:
Your scry solution could work
Search your library for any number of Mountain cards. Put one onto the battlefield and the rest on top of your library in any order.
Have this enter play tapped, and then gain life instead of losing it.
You could have each land type offer a unique effect upon summoning.
The real problem with this is that there is literally no reason for it to be a fetch land instead of just a regular Land - Mountain with an etb effect attached to it. The point of fetches being fetches is it gives the player a choice - you get multi-colour fixing, but can only pull a single color from the options provided. It creates decision making. If there's only one color, it takes away all form of decision making involved as well as the reason it needs to be a fetch land in the first place.
Alright, let me put it this way. Suppose the card I propose is:
Magma Pit
Land T, Sacrifice, Pay 1 Life: Search your library for a Mountain and put it onto the battlefield. Shuffle your library.
This would be undeniably much worse than Wooded Foothills or Bloodstained Mire, because it has all the same penalties but the good part is cut in half. So how do you make this balanced to be on the same level of strength as Wooded Foothills?
The fetchlands are arguably the most powerful dual lands ever printed. It may not be reasonable to expect to be able to design mono-fetches that are as strong as fetchlands while still being printable.
What purpose do you expect mono-color fetches to serve? Why do they need to be as strong as fetchlands?
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Every time I read a comment about "Well if this card had card draw/trample/haste/indestructible/hexproof/life gain...", I think "You're missing the point." They're armchair developer comments that fail to take into account the card's role in the greater Limited and Standard environment. No, it may not be as good as whatever card you're comparing it to. There's a reason for that. Not every burn spell is Lightning Bolt, nor does it need to be or should be.
- Manite
fetches serve multiple roles, like turning brainstorm into an ancestral recall (sort of), thinning the deck of lands/improving your draw quality, colour-fixing (fetching ABU/ravnica duals, deathrite shaman), threshold-ing (i.e. boosting tarmogoyf, nimble mongoose etc).. the pay one life is a downside, but its a very minor downside for what it actually does.
your mountain fetch is almost always a better than a mountain, even in limited formats.
i think if you wanna try making a fetch for a single land type, why not try something else like:
magma pit
land t, pay two life, sacrifice magma pit: search your library for a non-legendary non-basic land and put it into play. Shuffle your library afterwards.
legendary pit
legendary land t, pay half your life, rounded down, exile legendary pit: search your library for a legendary land and put it into play, then untap it. shuffle your library afterwards.
The real problem with this is that there is literally no reason for it to be a fetch land instead of just a regular Land - Mountain with an etb effect attached to it. The point of fetches being fetches is it gives the player a choice - you get multi-colour fixing, but can only pull a single color from the options provided. It creates decision making. If there's only one color, it takes away all form of decision making involved as well as the reason it needs to be a fetch land in the first place.
No, it still would allow the player to search for something like Steam Vents or whatever. In a Standard Esper deck, for example, the blue version of this type of fetch land could get a basic Island, Prairie Stream, or Sunken Hollow.
Alright, let me put it this way. Suppose the card I propose is:
Magma Pit
Land T, Sacrifice, Pay 1 Life: Search your library for a Mountain and put it onto the battlefield. Shuffle your library.
This would be undeniably much worse than Wooded Foothills or Bloodstained Mire, because it has all the same penalties but the good part is cut in half. So how do you make this balanced to be on the same level of strength as Wooded Foothills?
The fetchlands are arguably the most powerful dual lands ever printed. It may not be reasonable to expect to be able to design mono-fetches that are as strong as fetchlands while still being printable.
Obviously the existing fetch lands are printable; the allied-color ones were printed only a year ago providing access for them in both Standard and Modern. To my knowledge, Maro hasn't said this was a mistake, so he obviously doesn't think they are too powerful to print.
What purpose do you expect mono-color fetches to serve? Why do they need to be as strong as fetchlands?
1. They allow a small amount of flexibility regarding dual-lands that count as the land types for the colors they add. Less flexibility than two-color fetches, but more than just a basic land.
2. They provide some added advantage for decks that utilize the landfall mechanic.
3. They help fuel delve cards like Dig Through Time and Murderous Cut.
They don't have to be equally as strong, however... Removing the option to get two land types instead of one undeniably makes them far weaker than existing fetch-lands, so logically that means there is some room to add something to these to make them better, without making them better than existing fetch-lands. That's all that my point is. Well, and to ask, what would be that thing to add to these that would make them good enough to play but not more powerful than the existing fetches?
Magma Pit
Land T, Sacrifice, Pay 1 Life: Search your library for a Mountain and put it onto the battlefield. Shuffle your library.
You're right that the above card is worse than Wooded Foothills but given the power level of fetches, its still very very good. Just make it an uncommon and put them in a set that can take advantage of its unique effect (landfall, delve, ect).
Obviously the existing fetch lands are printable; the allied-color ones were printed only a year ago providing access for them in both Standard and Modern. To my knowledge, Maro hasn't said this was a mistake, so he obviously doesn't think they are too powerful to print.
I didn't say fetchlands were too strong too print. I said mono-fetchs as strong as fetchlands may not be printable. There may be zero design space for a mono-fetch that is as strong as a fetchland, due to the design constraints of lands. Specifically, lands can't be printed if they are strictly better than basics. Simple Red Fetch (below) is unprintably powerful, while being generally inferior to a fetchland.
Simple Red Fetch
Land T , Sacrifice : Search your library for a Mountain and put it onto the battlefield. Shuffle your library.
1. They allow a small amount of flexibility regarding dual-lands that count as the land types for the colors they add. Less flexibility than two-color fetches, but more than just a basic land.
2. They provide some added advantage for decks that utilize the landfall mechanic.
3. They help fuel delve cards like Dig Through Time and Murderous Cut.
I understand how fetchlands work mechanically. I'm asking what purpose you expect these lands to serve. Why would you include them in a set? They don't fix mana. Delve is a broken mechanic that shouldn't ever be reprinted. In limited, players won't be able to assemble these with dual lands anyway, so that interaction is pointless. All that leaves is landfall. Mono-Fetches must be the least interesting way of supporting landfall I've ever seen.
Basically, the big problem with mono-fetches is that they don't do anything. They would only exist to interact with other mechanics. I would never want to burn 5 slots in my block in order to print cards that in principle don't do anything.
They don't have to be equally as strong, however... Removing the option to get two land types instead of one undeniably makes them far weaker than existing fetch-lands, so logically that means there is some room to add something to these to make them better, without making them better than existing fetch-lands. That's all that my point is. Well, and to ask, what would be that thing to add to these that would make them good enough to play but not more powerful than the existing fetches?
Magma Pit (below) is already playable and isn't better than the fetchlands. It still isn't an interesting card though.
Magma Pit
Land T , Sacrifice, Pay 1 Life: Search your library for a Mountain and put it onto the battlefield. Shuffle your library.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Every time I read a comment about "Well if this card had card draw/trample/haste/indestructible/hexproof/life gain...", I think "You're missing the point." They're armchair developer comments that fail to take into account the card's role in the greater Limited and Standard environment. No, it may not be as good as whatever card you're comparing it to. There's a reason for that. Not every burn spell is Lightning Bolt, nor does it need to be or should be.
- Manite
Magma Pit
Land T, Sacrifice ~: Add 1 to your mana pool. Search your library for a Mountain card and put it onto the battlefield tapped. Then shuffle your library.
I don't see why simply: "T, sacrifice ~: Search your library for a Mountain and put it onto the battlefield" would be unfair. Paying 1 life is worth the versatility in most decks.
I'm not saying that I expect them to print a cycle like this, because I don't, but I don't think it's unfair.
If they were to print a cycle like this, it would probably say "Basic Mountain", and be uncommons.
I don't see why simply: "T, sacrifice ~: Search your library for a Mountain and put it onto the battlefield" would be unfair.
When building your deck, what incentive do you have to not just replace 4 mountains with 4 of these? In mono red you can just run 4 of them because they serve no real functional difference to a basic mountain (minor deck thinning yadda yadda) and if you have dual lands available, you also have the option to grab those if you want to. It basically lets you draw any Mountain/Steam Vents/Plateau/Cinder Glade/Madblind Mountain in your deck instead with no downside.
I don't see why simply: "T, sacrifice ~: Search your library for a Mountain and put it onto the battlefield" would be unfair.
When building your deck, what incentive do you have to not just replace 4 mountains with 4 of these? In mono red you can just run 4 of them because they serve no real functional difference to a basic mountain (minor deck thinning yadda yadda) and if you have dual lands available, you also have the option to grab those if you want to. It basically lets you draw any Mountain/Steam Vents/Plateau/Cinder Glade/Madblind Mountain in your deck instead with no downside.
After some thought on the matter, I agree with you. Magic is a weird game sometimes. Things that seem completely fair from a technical standpoint can be completely unfair from a realistic standpoint.
As a start, consider the following:
Magma Pit
Land
T, Sacrifice Magma Pit: Search your library for a Mountain and put that card onto the battlefield. Scry 1.
Scry has sort of become a default add-on to help up the strength of a card that seems underpowered, but there are other options. You could have each land generate an effect related to the color, making them quite different. For example, the above land could instead deal 1 damage to target creature as replacement for the Scry trigger.
Things I briefly considered that are too powerful:
-fetch two lands instead of one. (LOL)
-fetch two, one ETB and one into hand.
-fetch two, one ETB tapped, and one into hand. (has potential, actually)
-fetch plus draw a card. (nope nope nope)
What other ideas can you think of?
Land
T, Sacrifice ~: Search your library for a Mountain and put that card onto the battlefield.
is already more powerful than a basic mountain in a deck that has duals. Or brainstorm effects. I don't get how you think this is underpowered. Especially when you've already added "Scry 1" onto it.
I̟̥͍̠ͅn̩͉̣͍̬͚ͅ ̬̬͖t̯̹̞̺͖͓̯̤h̘͍̬e͙̯͈̖̼̮ ̭̬f̺̲̲̪i͙͉̟̩̰r̪̝͚͈̝̥͍̝̲s̼̻͇̘̳͔ͅt̲̺̳̗̜̪̙ ̳̺̥̻͚̗ͅm̜̜̟̰͈͓͎͇o̝̖̮̝͇m̯̻̞̼̫̗͓̤e̩̯̬̮̩n͎̱̪̲̹͖t͇̖s̰̮ͅ,̤̲͙̻̭̻̯̹̰ ̖t̫̙̺̯͖͚̯ͅh͙̯̦̳̗̰̟e͖̪͉̼̯ ̪͕g̞̣͔a̗̦t̬̬͓͙̫̖̭̻e̩̻̯ ̜̖̦̖̤̭͙̬t̞̹̥̪͎͉ͅo͕͚͍͇̲͇͓̺ ̭̬͙͈̣̻t͈͍͙͓̫̖͙̩h̪̬̖̙e̗͈ ̗̬̟̞̺̤͉̯ͅa̦̯͚̙̜̮f͉͙̲̣̞̼t̪̤̞̣͚e̲͉̳̥r͇̪̙͚͓l̥̞̞͎̹̯̹ͅi͓̬f̮̥̬̞͈ͅe͎ ̟̩̤̳̠̯̩̯o̮̘̲p̟͚̣̞͉͓e͍̩̣n͔̼͕͚̜e̬̱d̼̘͎̖̹͍̮̠,͖̺̭̱̮ ̣̲͖̬̪̭̥a̪͚n̟̲̝̤̤̞̗d̘̱̗͇̮͕̳͕͔ ͖̞͉͎t̹̙͎h̰̱͉̗e̪̞̱̝̹̩ͅ ̠̱̩̭̦p̯̙e͓o̳͚̰̯̺̱̰͔̘p̬͎̱̣̼̩͇l̗̟̖͚̠e̱͉͔̱̦̬̟̙ ̖͚̪͔̼̦w̺̖̤̱e͖̗̻̦͓̖̘̜r̭̥e͔̹̫̱͕̦̰͕ ̗͔̠p̠̗͍͍̱̳̠r̰͔͎̰o͉̥͓̰͚̥s̟͚̹̱͔̣t͉̙̳̖͖̪̮r̥̘̥͙̹a͉̟̫̟̳̠̟̭t͈̜̰͈͎e̞̣̭̲̬ ͚̗̯̟͙i͍͖̰̘̦͖͉ṇ̮̻̯̦̲̩͍ ̦̮͚̫̤t͉͖̫͕ͅͅh͙̮̻̘̣̮̼e͕̺ ͙l͕̠͎̰̥i̲͓͉̲g̫̳̟͈͇̖h̠̦̖t͓̯͎̗ ̳̪̘̟̙̩̦o̫̲f̙͔̰̙̠ ̹̪̗͇̯t͖̼̼͉͖̬h̹͇̩e͚̖̺̤͉̹͕̪ ͚͓̭̝̺G͎̗̯̩o̫̯̮̟̮̳̘d̜̲͙̠-̩̳̯̲̗̜P̹̘̥͉̝h͍͈̗̖̝ͅa͍̗̮̼̗r̜̖͇̙̺a̭̺͔̞̳͈o̪̣͓̯̬͙̯̰̗h̖̦͈̥̯͔.͇̣̙̝
Second, what significance would this have in standard? Unless it shared a set with dual lands of 2 types Ala shocklands? If not why would you put in a land whose only function is to replace itself with another land, why not just play a mountain? And don't give me any of that "deck thinning" talk, running 4 or less isn't going to thin your deck in any noticeably way and if you run more you are running at least 2 colors and if you can't fetch the duals then again you are essentially doing nothing, and likely those slots would be better off stabilizing your mana base than thinning your deck.
If anything I would like to see either a cycle of shard or wedge fetchlands, not sure exactly how you'd balance them or even if you could. The panoramas were nice but too slow and just copying the existing fetches but with a third option seems too strong and would be strictly better and make the existing fetches obsolete.
Also a fetchland that could get any land would be nice, even if it enterd the field tapped, you had to up the penalty to 2 life or had to bring the fetched land in tapped.
Even if you removed the scry, this is ridiculously overpowered, more than the fetches.
"Sometimes, the situation is outracing a threat, sometimes it's ignoring it, and sometimes it involves sideboarding in 4x Hope//Pray." --Doug Linn
Actually, the current philosophy is that lands should either produce mana, or fetch something that does. Basically, by playing any land, you should have more access to mana than you did before, and this card is fine on that front.
It is less powerful than Wooded Foothills, that's the point I'm trying to make. You're taking away half of what you get from Wooded Foothills, so what do you get back in return?
Magma Pit
Land
T, Sacrifice, Pay 1 Life: Search your library for a Mountain and put it onto the battlefield. Shuffle your library.
This would be undeniably much worse than Wooded Foothills or Bloodstained Mire, because it has all the same penalties but the good part is cut in half. So how do you make this balanced to be on the same level of strength as Wooded Foothills?
Your scry solution could work
Search your library for any number of Mountain cards. Put one onto the battlefield and the rest on top of your library in any order.
Have this enter play tapped, and then gain life instead of losing it.
You could have each land type offer a unique effect upon summoning.
Etc
Avant Block: Avant -- Stormfront
The fetchlands are arguably the most powerful dual lands ever printed. It may not be reasonable to expect to be able to design mono-fetches that are as strong as fetchlands while still being printable.
What purpose do you expect mono-color fetches to serve? Why do they need to be as strong as fetchlands?
- Manite
your mountain fetch is almost always a better than a mountain, even in limited formats.
i think if you wanna try making a fetch for a single land type, why not try something else like:
magma pit
land
t, pay two life, sacrifice magma pit: search your library for a non-legendary non-basic land and put it into play. Shuffle your library afterwards.
legendary pit
legendary land
t, pay half your life, rounded down, exile legendary pit: search your library for a legendary land and put it into play, then untap it. shuffle your library afterwards.
Legacy - Solidarity - mono U aggro - burn - Imperial Painter - Strawberry Shortcake - Bluuzards - bom
No, it still would allow the player to search for something like Steam Vents or whatever. In a Standard Esper deck, for example, the blue version of this type of fetch land could get a basic Island, Prairie Stream, or Sunken Hollow.
Obviously the existing fetch lands are printable; the allied-color ones were printed only a year ago providing access for them in both Standard and Modern. To my knowledge, Maro hasn't said this was a mistake, so he obviously doesn't think they are too powerful to print.
1. They allow a small amount of flexibility regarding dual-lands that count as the land types for the colors they add. Less flexibility than two-color fetches, but more than just a basic land.
2. They provide some added advantage for decks that utilize the landfall mechanic.
3. They help fuel delve cards like Dig Through Time and Murderous Cut.
They don't have to be equally as strong, however... Removing the option to get two land types instead of one undeniably makes them far weaker than existing fetch-lands, so logically that means there is some room to add something to these to make them better, without making them better than existing fetch-lands. That's all that my point is. Well, and to ask, what would be that thing to add to these that would make them good enough to play but not more powerful than the existing fetches?
You're right that the above card is worse than Wooded Foothills but given the power level of fetches, its still very very good. Just make it an uncommon and put them in a set that can take advantage of its unique effect (landfall, delve, ect).
BGStandard Green AggroGB
UWRGModern Saheeli CobraGRWU
UBRGLegacy StormGRBU
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I didn't say fetchlands were too strong too print. I said mono-fetchs as strong as fetchlands may not be printable. There may be zero design space for a mono-fetch that is as strong as a fetchland, due to the design constraints of lands. Specifically, lands can't be printed if they are strictly better than basics. Simple Red Fetch (below) is unprintably powerful, while being generally inferior to a fetchland.
Simple Red Fetch
Land
T , Sacrifice : Search your library for a Mountain and put it onto the battlefield. Shuffle your library.
I understand how fetchlands work mechanically. I'm asking what purpose you expect these lands to serve. Why would you include them in a set? They don't fix mana. Delve is a broken mechanic that shouldn't ever be reprinted. In limited, players won't be able to assemble these with dual lands anyway, so that interaction is pointless. All that leaves is landfall. Mono-Fetches must be the least interesting way of supporting landfall I've ever seen.
Basically, the big problem with mono-fetches is that they don't do anything. They would only exist to interact with other mechanics. I would never want to burn 5 slots in my block in order to print cards that in principle don't do anything.
Magma Pit (below) is already playable and isn't better than the fetchlands. It still isn't an interesting card though.
Magma Pit
Land
T , Sacrifice, Pay 1 Life: Search your library for a Mountain and put it onto the battlefield. Shuffle your library.
- Manite
Magma Pit
Land
T, Sacrifice ~: Add 1 to your mana pool. Search your library for a Mountain card and put it onto the battlefield tapped. Then shuffle your library.
I'm not saying that I expect them to print a cycle like this, because I don't, but I don't think it's unfair.
If they were to print a cycle like this, it would probably say "Basic Mountain", and be uncommons.
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After some thought on the matter, I agree with you. Magic is a weird game sometimes. Things that seem completely fair from a technical standpoint can be completely unfair from a realistic standpoint.
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