This is very much a "reverse threshold" mechanic, encouraging players to do very different actions than the original threshold. Rather than discarding or self milling, players want to kill their opponent's things and to mill their opponents. My big question is whether I should try to give it a number variable or let it sit static like threshold does. If I should use a static value, any opinions on where should I start playtesting at? Other than that, I wonder about any implications of including a mechanic like this in a set. Here's the sneak peek of Flood:
Filthrun Ogre3B
Creature - Ogre Warrior (C) Flood — Filthrun Ogre has intimidate as long as an opponent has six or more cards in his or her graveyard.
4/2
Crashing Tide3U
Sorcery (C)
Target player puts the top six cards of his or her library into his or her graveyard. Flood — If an opponent has six or more cards in his or her graveyard, that player puts the top twelve cards of his or her library into his or her graveyard instead.
fixed. It will bne very annoying if you have to track multiple cards if they have flood or not. Card A has fllod, but not B or C. A card goves into the graveyard and now card B had flood, but not C.
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"Sometimes, the situation is outracing a threat, sometimes it's ignoring it, and sometimes it involves sideboarding in 4x Hope//Pray." --Doug Linn
One problem with Threshold was that it required you to count something that is quite annoying to count, since your graveyard is generally a stack of cards, so you have to pick them up and count them to check...
With Flood, you have a big problem:you have to count your opponent's cards, and you can't pick them up or touch them to make that easier.
Also, it relies on your opponent's deck a lot more than Threshold, and mechanics that care about what your opponent's doing, rather than what you're doing, are less fun to play with.
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Lead Tesla, a community set designed by everyone and led by me, over at Goblin Artisans. Index of articles here!
The key with Flood designs is the same key used in many contemporary MTG designs which requiring tracking a threshold value: design Flood cards so they require you to check the number of cards in an opponent's graveyard a limited number of times.
When I was using Threshold in my first set, I made the following remarks, which I stand by:
* I did not want the Threshold effect to change the power or toughness of the creature instantly.
* I wanted to limit the number of Threshold cards at lower rarities.
* I wanted some form of visible feedback to denote whether or not Threshold was active.
Wow, this is all insanely good advice. Excellent thinking, Jetvans.
Flood is much more intuitive because it rewards players for something you should be trying to do anyway (get cards into your opponents' graveyards). It might be less of a comeback mechanic than Threshold though, which is one potential drawback (or maybe not?).
Both fantastic points. I myself am a HUGE fan of mechanics that reward players for things that we want them to be doing. Raid for attacking; Landfall for playing lands; Bloodthirst for dealing damage to an opponent; and so on, and so forth.
I think it works okay as a comeback mechanic. Not great, as the losing player typically has chumped more... but the player who has cast more spells in a game is far more likely to be winning, usually. And obviously if they're casting more spells, it's likely they have more in their yard. A key thing to note, of course, is that if those spells are creatures, then they aren't going to the yard.
To use the Quadrant Theory, this is definitely going to be a mechanic that's important in the Winning and Losing Quadrants, where trades favorable to one player are happening often. Players in a Stalemate are unlikely to throw away their creatures in trades (unless en route to Winning and Losing), and Developing are focused more on creatures sticking than stuff heading to the yard. (Though combat tricks and tempo plays are valuable in this Quadrant, so it certainly is important to establishing a Flood - it's just not the thing that'll TRIGGER the Flood.)
For the reasons that Flood rewards you for using some spells that are very good in a Winning situation - removal, discard, counterspells, and so on - and because it has the potential to be an interesting comeback mechanic in the correct format, I really recommend that the things that Flood works best with (removal, discard, counterspells) are situated more towards the Losing end of the spectrum. That is, make them 'comeback cards', things that work best when you're on the defensive or whatever. There's a few different ways to do that, including Aetherize and Smite the Monstrous.
Anyway, I really do like the mechanic, but I'm unconvinced that the solutions Jetvans offers are enough to fix the problem of having to count cards in something historically difficult to count in two different ways. Compounding that difficulty just seems unfeasible.
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Lead Tesla, a community set designed by everyone and led by me, over at Goblin Artisans. Index of articles here!
This has been a super helpful conversation so far! I'll keep in mind your points Jetvans, and also try to follow TJ's advice about focusing them more on the "comeback mechanic" side of things (rather than win-more). The tracking complexity is something I'm still curious to hear people's thoughts on - for context, I don't anticipate putting Flood in a graveyard-matters set. Ergo there will be very little outflow from the graveyard. Maybe a Tormod's Crypt/Bojuka Bog and that's it for outflow. The design goal for the mechanic had two specific components: (a) encourage mill, (b) be better the later the game goes.
One worry I'm beginning to have is a player not wanting to cast a spell that will be the critical count in his own graveyard, so he just does nothing.
One worry I'm beginning to have is a player not wanting to cast a spell that will be the critical count in his own graveyard, so he just does nothing.
Oof, that actually is quite concerning. I hadn't even thought of that.
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Known as Inanimate at Goblin Artisans, and TyrRev at /r/custommagic!
Lead Tesla, a community set designed by everyone and led by me, over at Goblin Artisans. Index of articles here!
I think that means it's best to keep Flood to nonpermanents (at low rarities at least) so the player one away from critical can hope his opponent doesn't have any Flood cards.
One worry I'm beginning to have is a player not wanting to cast a spell that will be the critical count in his own graveyard, so he just does nothing.
This was the first thing that came to mind.
Maybe a mechanic that gives players a chance to adjust the number of cards in their library will alleviate the frustration and offer a little strategy.
Something like:
Reuse (At the beginning of your upkeep, you may cast this spell from your graveyard. If you do, exile it after it resolves.)
Or
Gain Life (Common) W
Instant
Target creature gains lifelink until end of turn. Graveyard Mode - W, Exile Gain Life from your graveyard: You gain 3 life. Activate this ability only during your upkeep.
Filthrun Ogre 3B
Creature - Ogre Warrior (C)
Flood — Filthrun Ogre has intimidate as long as an opponent has six or more cards in his or her graveyard.
4/2
Crashing Tide 3U
Sorcery (C)
Target player puts the top six cards of his or her library into his or her graveyard.
Flood — If an opponent has six or more cards in his or her graveyard, that player puts the top twelve cards of his or her library into his or her graveyard instead.
"Sometimes, the situation is outracing a threat, sometimes it's ignoring it, and sometimes it involves sideboarding in 4x Hope//Pray." --Doug Linn
With Flood, you have a big problem:you have to count your opponent's cards, and you can't pick them up or touch them to make that easier.
Also, it relies on your opponent's deck a lot more than Threshold, and mechanics that care about what your opponent's doing, rather than what you're doing, are less fun to play with.
Lead Tesla, a community set designed by everyone and led by me, over at Goblin Artisans. Index of articles here!
Wow, this is all insanely good advice. Excellent thinking, Jetvans.
Both fantastic points. I myself am a HUGE fan of mechanics that reward players for things that we want them to be doing. Raid for attacking; Landfall for playing lands; Bloodthirst for dealing damage to an opponent; and so on, and so forth.
I think it works okay as a comeback mechanic. Not great, as the losing player typically has chumped more... but the player who has cast more spells in a game is far more likely to be winning, usually. And obviously if they're casting more spells, it's likely they have more in their yard. A key thing to note, of course, is that if those spells are creatures, then they aren't going to the yard.
To use the Quadrant Theory, this is definitely going to be a mechanic that's important in the Winning and Losing Quadrants, where trades favorable to one player are happening often. Players in a Stalemate are unlikely to throw away their creatures in trades (unless en route to Winning and Losing), and Developing are focused more on creatures sticking than stuff heading to the yard. (Though combat tricks and tempo plays are valuable in this Quadrant, so it certainly is important to establishing a Flood - it's just not the thing that'll TRIGGER the Flood.)
For the reasons that Flood rewards you for using some spells that are very good in a Winning situation - removal, discard, counterspells, and so on - and because it has the potential to be an interesting comeback mechanic in the correct format, I really recommend that the things that Flood works best with (removal, discard, counterspells) are situated more towards the Losing end of the spectrum. That is, make them 'comeback cards', things that work best when you're on the defensive or whatever. There's a few different ways to do that, including Aetherize and Smite the Monstrous.
Anyway, I really do like the mechanic, but I'm unconvinced that the solutions Jetvans offers are enough to fix the problem of having to count cards in something historically difficult to count in two different ways. Compounding that difficulty just seems unfeasible.
Lead Tesla, a community set designed by everyone and led by me, over at Goblin Artisans. Index of articles here!
One worry I'm beginning to have is a player not wanting to cast a spell that will be the critical count in his own graveyard, so he just does nothing.
Oof, that actually is quite concerning. I hadn't even thought of that.
Lead Tesla, a community set designed by everyone and led by me, over at Goblin Artisans. Index of articles here!
This was the first thing that came to mind.
Maybe a mechanic that gives players a chance to adjust the number of cards in their library will alleviate the frustration and offer a little strategy.
Something like:
Reuse (At the beginning of your upkeep, you may cast this spell from your graveyard. If you do, exile it after it resolves.)
Or
Gain Life (Common)
W
Instant
Target creature gains lifelink until end of turn.
Graveyard Mode - W, Exile Gain Life from your graveyard: You gain 3 life. Activate this ability only during your upkeep.