I've been inspired by Doombringer and StairC to ask all of you if you would be interested in having a community-editable, written design resource.
I envision this having a different focus from the podcast, since I don't want to step on it's toes and also because I believe some things would be more effectively covered by a written resource rather that a podcast.
Currently, I envision the wiki covering the following:
Mechanics and the Color Pie: What colors get what mechanics.
Effect Pricing: How much certain effects cost in different colors.
Templating: A guide to templating rules text correctly.
I'd like the resource to be editable, so that it can change as WotC's design processes evolve and so that the burden of maintaining the resource is not placed on one person.
This would be pretty neat, definitely a useful source of references. You'll want at least one article that covers color pie breaking cards, explaining why those cards are color pie outlaws and urging readers to not design similar CPBs (Color Pie Breakers) in the future.
You'll also want to cover the points of Top-Down Design versus Bottom-Up Design. For those unaware, Top-Down starts from a flavor standpoint and designs mechanics to match the flavor, like Innistrad (Gothic Horror) and Theros (Greek Mythology), while Bottom-Up instead starts from a mechanical standpoint and finds a flavor to fit the mechanics, like Mirrodin (Artifacts Matter) and Zendikar (Lands Matter).
Effect Pricing is a tricky subject as Development handles pricing moreso than Design, and will add or subtract mana in order to make a particular card more fitting for Limited or Constructed formats. Compare Flame Slash from Rise of the Eldrazi and Bathe in Dragonfire from Fate Reforged for a good example.
That said, some kinds of spells should definitely have a firm minimum. Counterspell variants, known as hard counters, should always include UU or UC in their mana costs, where C is another color, and most hard counters should have a CMC (converted mana cost) of at least 3 or require an additional cost like seen in Deprive. Soft counters like Essence Scatter, Mana Leak, Negate, and Turn Aside can obviously be done at lower costs.
Land Destruction is another category worth elaborating on. Cards like Stone Rain and Molten Rain are too oppressive and bad for the game's long-term health, thus any spell with such an effect should have a CMC of at least 4 like Craterize, Demolish, or Melt Terrain. It is also strongly advised that such effects always be sorcery speed.
It should also be made clear that making strictly better or strictly worse cards is neither a crime nor a sin, as long as the difference is reasonable and not format warping. For example, Stoic Rebuttal, Dissipate, and Dissolve are all strictly better than Cancel but not to the point they are game breaking, though the latter two are uncommons thanks to the advantage their extra effects generate.
I would also want to provide a proper definition for "Strictly Better", as that topic warrants its own in-depth article.
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MTGS Wikia Article about "New World Order"
Every time I read a comment about "Well if this card had card draw/trample/haste/indestructible/hexproof/life gain...", I think "You're missing the point." They're armchair developer comments that fail to take into account the card's role in the greater Limited and Standard environment. No, it may not be as good as whatever card you're comparing it to. There's a reason for that. Not every burn spell is Lightning Bolt, nor does it need to be or should be.
PSA to everyone who keeps forgetting about the Reserved List:
You're on a website dedicated to talking about MtG. You're only a few keystrokes away from finding out what cards are on the Reserved List. You're also only a few keystrokes away from finding out why some cards on the Reserved List got foil printings in FtV, as Judge promos, or whatnot, as well as why that won't happen again. Stop doing this.
I'd definitely be interested in seeing where something like this goes. We could definitely use more design resources, though I'm not sure an open-source wiki is going to be reliable enough. Some people might think black gets ritual effects like Dark Ritual for example, without realizing that the mechanic has been shifted to red in modern card design. This kind of thing might create some confusion in the wiki among multiple contributors, but hey - Wikipedia has been amazingly accurate overall. So, I'm interested to see what happens.
Lately I've been toying with the idea of doing an article or more probably a series of articles on my views about that (custom card design) and my advice for getting better at custom card design specifically from my own point of view.
In the meantime, I went ahead on that and I've just finished to write the first article (I'm proofreading it right now), which is by necessity just an introduction. I was already planning to talk in detail about all the topics mentioned here in the OP in the next few articles, and I'll probably do that anyway. But the existence of articles and a wiki are certainly not mutually exclusive!
By the way, would this subforum be the right place to post such articles? I guess so.
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MCC - Winner (6): Oct 2014, Apr Nov 2017, Jan 2018, Apr Jun 2019 || Host (15): Dec 2014, Apr Jul Aug Dec 2015, Mar Jul Aug Oct 2016, Feb Jul 2017, Jun Nov 2018, Feb Jul 2019 (last one here) || Judge (34): every month from Nov 2014 to Nov 2016 except Oct 2015, every month from Feb to Jul 2017 except Apr 2017, then Oct 2017, May Jun Nov 2018, Feb Jul 2019 (last one here) CCL - Winner (3): Jul 2016 (tied with Flatline), May 2017, Jul 2019 (last one here) || Host (5): Feb 2015, Mar Apr May Jun 2016 DCC - Winner (1): Mar 2015 (tied with Piar) || Host (3): May Oct 2015, Jan 2016
• The two public custom sets I've been part a part of the design team for: "Brotherhood of Ormos" - Blog post with all info - set thread - design skeleton / card list || "Extinctia: Homo Evanuit" - Blog post with all info - set thread - card list spreadsheet
• "The Lion's Lair", my article series about MTG and custom card design in particular. Latest article here. Here is the article index.Rather outdated by now, and based on the old MCC rubric, but I'm leaving this here for anybody that might be interested anyway.
• My only public attempt at being a writer: the story of my Leonin custom planeswalker Jeff Lionheart. (I have a very big one that I'm working on right now but that's private for now, and I don't know if I will ever actually publish it, and I also have ideas for multiple future ones, including one where I'm going to reprise Jeff.)
I would be very interested and happy to contribute in areas related to Elegance, Top down/Bottom Up design, Flavor, World Building, Design v. Development, Core Statements, and the Color Wheel to name a few topics.
Hm. I'm intending this to provide a design style guide/reference source, as opposed to providing commentary on design philosophy, though expanding into design philosophy might be a good idea and make sense at some point. The offer is appreciated, IcariiFA, but I don't think I want to get into those topics right now.
You make some good points Manite. As for mana costs, I'd just like to provide some baselines for how much things should cost, as opposed to an end-all be-all list of exactly how much things should cost.
Custom cards might be useful as examples, but I don't see the need to create another place for new custom cards to be posted.
I'm interested to see what you write, bravelion, so I'll keep an eye out for those articles.
When I do start working on this, I think I'll keep it as a single-author source for now, for the reasons StairC mentioned.
I just want to say that something like this would be a great resource that I'd very much approve of.
One of the major reasons I created things like the NWO primer is because there is a lack of accessible resources and this in turn creates a large barrier of entry for posting on these forums without tripping over a basic design mistake.
My suggestion:
Just start it, with any project like this you have to make a big push to get momentum going but the payoff is definitely worth it.
I've always been interested in design theory, and I like making (and using) resources related to card design. For example, a chart showing all possible mana costs, and the vanilla creature you "get" for that cost. As time goes on, new cards need to be added, like Kalonian Tusker in the GG slot.
I might be able to help write/maintain some such data if someone goes through with this project.
it's too daunting a task to have only one person do everything. you'll get tired, bored, overburdened, etc after just a few articles. and there is so much to write about. probably many ideas one person can't think up. and maybe some you're not eager to include for whatever reason. it's a lot of man-hours of work.
the idea of wiki is to be easy make corrections and updates. just because people have ideas that are outdated or misinformed doesn't mean denying the community to edit the wiki. the community can fix mistakes and self-moderate.
I am currently writing everything for this myself right now, at least until the resource is more developed and it's purpose and structure has become more clear to myself (and hopefully others as well). I'm planning to work at a slow but steady pace, and I'll be opening up the resource to other writers as I go along.
I made another thread about this, but it's gone mostly unremarked, so I did want to point out that I have launched this resource, and I have named it the MTG CCC Handbook.
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I've been inspired by Doombringer and StairC to ask all of you if you would be interested in having a community-editable, written design resource.
I envision this having a different focus from the podcast, since I don't want to step on it's toes and also because I believe some things would be more effectively covered by a written resource rather that a podcast.
Currently, I envision the wiki covering the following:
Mechanics and the Color Pie: What colors get what mechanics.
Effect Pricing: How much certain effects cost in different colors.
Templating: A guide to templating rules text correctly.
I'd like the resource to be editable, so that it can change as WotC's design processes evolve and so that the burden of maintaining the resource is not placed on one person.
You'll also want to cover the points of Top-Down Design versus Bottom-Up Design. For those unaware, Top-Down starts from a flavor standpoint and designs mechanics to match the flavor, like Innistrad (Gothic Horror) and Theros (Greek Mythology), while Bottom-Up instead starts from a mechanical standpoint and finds a flavor to fit the mechanics, like Mirrodin (Artifacts Matter) and Zendikar (Lands Matter).
Effect Pricing is a tricky subject as Development handles pricing moreso than Design, and will add or subtract mana in order to make a particular card more fitting for Limited or Constructed formats. Compare Flame Slash from Rise of the Eldrazi and Bathe in Dragonfire from Fate Reforged for a good example.
That said, some kinds of spells should definitely have a firm minimum. Counterspell variants, known as hard counters, should always include UU or UC in their mana costs, where C is another color, and most hard counters should have a CMC (converted mana cost) of at least 3 or require an additional cost like seen in Deprive. Soft counters like Essence Scatter, Mana Leak, Negate, and Turn Aside can obviously be done at lower costs.
Land Destruction is another category worth elaborating on. Cards like Stone Rain and Molten Rain are too oppressive and bad for the game's long-term health, thus any spell with such an effect should have a CMC of at least 4 like Craterize, Demolish, or Melt Terrain. It is also strongly advised that such effects always be sorcery speed.
It should also be made clear that making strictly better or strictly worse cards is neither a crime nor a sin, as long as the difference is reasonable and not format warping. For example, Stoic Rebuttal, Dissipate, and Dissolve are all strictly better than Cancel but not to the point they are game breaking, though the latter two are uncommons thanks to the advantage their extra effects generate.
I would also want to provide a proper definition for "Strictly Better", as that topic warrants its own in-depth article.
Every time I read a comment about "Well if this card had card draw/trample/haste/indestructible/hexproof/life gain...", I think "You're missing the point." They're armchair developer comments that fail to take into account the card's role in the greater Limited and Standard environment. No, it may not be as good as whatever card you're comparing it to. There's a reason for that. Not every burn spell is Lightning Bolt, nor does it need to be or should be.
Remaking Magic - A Podcast for those that love MTG and Game Design
The Dungeon Master's Guide - A Podcast for those that love RPGs and Game Design
Sig-Heroes of the Plane
In the meantime, I went ahead on that and I've just finished to write the first article (I'm proofreading it right now), which is by necessity just an introduction. I was already planning to talk in detail about all the topics mentioned here in the OP in the next few articles, and I'll probably do that anyway. But the existence of articles and a wiki are certainly not mutually exclusive!
By the way, would this subforum be the right place to post such articles? I guess so.
MCC - Winner (6): Oct 2014, Apr Nov 2017, Jan 2018, Apr Jun 2019 || Host (15): Dec 2014, Apr Jul Aug Dec 2015, Mar Jul Aug Oct 2016, Feb Jul 2017, Jun Nov 2018, Feb Jul 2019 (last one here) || Judge (34): every month from Nov 2014 to Nov 2016 except Oct 2015, every month from Feb to Jul 2017 except Apr 2017, then Oct 2017, May Jun Nov 2018, Feb Jul 2019 (last one here)
CCL - Winner (3): Jul 2016 (tied with Flatline), May 2017, Jul 2019 (last one here) || Host (5): Feb 2015, Mar Apr May Jun 2016
DCC - Winner (1): Mar 2015 (tied with Piar) || Host (3): May Oct 2015, Jan 2016
• The two public custom sets I've been part a part of the design team for:
"Brotherhood of Ormos" - Blog post with all info - set thread - design skeleton / card list || "Extinctia: Homo Evanuit" - Blog post with all info - set thread - card list spreadsheet
• "The Lion's Lair", my article series about MTG and custom card design in particular. Latest article here. Here is the article index. Rather outdated by now, and based on the old MCC rubric, but I'm leaving this here for anybody that might be interested anyway.
• My only public attempt at being a writer: the story of my Leonin custom planeswalker Jeff Lionheart. (I have a very big one that I'm working on right now but that's private for now, and I don't know if I will ever actually publish it, and I also have ideas for multiple future ones, including one where I'm going to reprise Jeff.)
Yeh the main forum, however if we get enough primers and full articles written I think we should suggest to the moderators to add a new subforum.
Are you designing commons? Check out my primer on NWO.
Interested in making a custom set? Check out my Set skeleton and archetype primer.
I also write articles about getting started with custom card creation.
Go and PLAYTEST your designs, you will learn more in a single playtests than a dozen discussions.
My custom sets:
Dreamscape
Coins of Mercalis [COMPLETE]
Exodus of Zendikar - ON HOLD
You make some good points Manite. As for mana costs, I'd just like to provide some baselines for how much things should cost, as opposed to an end-all be-all list of exactly how much things should cost.
Custom cards might be useful as examples, but I don't see the need to create another place for new custom cards to be posted.
I'm interested to see what you write, bravelion, so I'll keep an eye out for those articles.
When I do start working on this, I think I'll keep it as a single-author source for now, for the reasons StairC mentioned.
One of the major reasons I created things like the NWO primer is because there is a lack of accessible resources and this in turn creates a large barrier of entry for posting on these forums without tripping over a basic design mistake.
My suggestion:
Just start it, with any project like this you have to make a big push to get momentum going but the payoff is definitely worth it.
Are you designing commons? Check out my primer on NWO.
Interested in making a custom set? Check out my Set skeleton and archetype primer.
I also write articles about getting started with custom card creation.
Go and PLAYTEST your designs, you will learn more in a single playtests than a dozen discussions.
My custom sets:
Dreamscape
Coins of Mercalis [COMPLETE]
Exodus of Zendikar - ON HOLD
I might be able to help write/maintain some such data if someone goes through with this project.
.
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1fKOoeRw4uPwtPuIyoMF-8uGZwPj***F8y0JmmbEl3W0/edit?usp=sharing
Thanks for the link zaratustra. That chart looks like it was comprehensive when it was made, but it could probably use an update.
the idea of wiki is to be easy make corrections and updates. just because people have ideas that are outdated or misinformed doesn't mean denying the community to edit the wiki. the community can fix mistakes and self-moderate.
........................
Remaking Magic - A Podcast for those that love MTG and Game Design
The Dungeon Master's Guide - A Podcast for those that love RPGs and Game Design
Sig-Heroes of the Plane
I made another thread about this, but it's gone mostly unremarked, so I did want to point out that I have launched this resource, and I have named it the MTG CCC Handbook.