I find Tibalt to be a fascinating character, but his current incarnation is often regarded as being too weak to be truly effective, and his color does not properly match his personality, in my mind. Therefore, I have created a new version of him, one who is both black and red, and who has more versatile abilities.
Tibalt, the Tormentor
Casting Cost: (1)(B)(R)
Type: planeswalker – Tibalt Loyalty: [3] [+1]: Tibalt, the Tormentor deals 2 damage to target opponent. That player then discards a card. [-3]: target opponent discards his or her hand unless he or she pays 5 life. [-8]: each opponent chooses four permanents that he or she controls, and then sacrifices the rest.
In this version, his first ability is akin to blightning, which was featured in his half of Duel Decks: Sorin versus Tibalt, his second ability is akin to tyrannize, and his third ability is akin to Razia's purification, albeit each being slightly weaker in effect to balance the fact that each is repeatable and does not require mana to be used. Each of his abilities can have two potential effects, and, in the case of his second and third abilities, force his controller's opponents to make sadistic choices that will be painful to them regardless of the result, which excellently embodies his cruel personality, in my mind.
What does everyone else say about this? How do you like my new Tibalt?
Yeah, if the +1 ability of a three mana planeswalker is worth two mana as a sorcery then you are in the overpowered part of the spectrum. I heard Liliana of the Veil sees play and compare what she gets and what your permanent gets.
That said as undercosted as this Tibalt is, I like the design idea. The choice in the ultimate is so meaningless it doesn't really fit in well enough. I'd like something like:
choose X permanents
sacrifice the rest
lose N*X life"
Though not necessarily exactly that.
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Planar Chaos was not a mistake neither was it random. You might want to look at it again.
[thread=239793][Game] Level Up - Creature[/thread]
The plus is way too powerful for a 3 cost planeswalker. The minus isn't that great and could probably be a minus 2. The plus could maybe deal 2 damage to target opponent unless they discard a card. I'm fine with the ultimate. I actually like this guy
In addition to the +1 being too strong, I really don't like how the -3 doesn't work with it at all. As you strip your opponent's hand with the +1 the -3 becomes weaker and weaker.
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"In the beginning, MTG Salvation switched to a new forum format.
This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move."
It was at that moment that I realized: I'm kinda just making these things up. We can just write the rules the way we want them to work. People will have fun, and people will get it.
This guy's +1 would feel strong but fair on a 2RB walker, as long as he isn't given too many chances to protect himself. Echo statements that his -3 doesn't work with the rest but I did like the ultimate and I'm interested in seeing where he goes from here.
This guy's +1 is better than Lorwyn Liliana's +1 stapled to Lorwyn Chandra's +1. Those may not have been on the powerful side, but they did each cost five, and there is no way this +1 should be on anything under five mana. The anti-synergy between the +1 and -3 is also pretty lame, so even if you just bumped it to 3br you'd need to retool the -3.
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I primarily play limited, so most of my spoiler season comments view cards through that lens.
After reading the comments of the other users here, it seems that he is slightly too powerful as he currently is, so I shall attempt to make him more balanced.
Tibalt, the Tormentor
Casting Cost: (1)(B)(R)
Type: planeswalker – Tibalt Loyalty: [3] [+1]: Tibalt, the Tormentor deals 2 damage to target opponent unless that player discards a card. [-2]: target opponent discards his or her hand unless he or she pays 5 life. [-8]: each opponent chooses four permanents that he or she controls, and then sacrifices the rest.
I adjusted his first ability to be less powerful by giving the opponent a choice, and also made his second ability cost only 2 loyalty. Is this an improvement over my previous version?
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“Those who would trade their freedoms for security will have neither.”-Benjamin Franklin
“When the people fear the government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty.”-Thomas Jefferson
“A vote is like a rifle; its usefulness depends upon the character of its user.”-Theodore Roosevelt
“Patriotism means to stand by one's country; it does not mean to stand by one's president.”-Theodore Roosevelt
The problem now is that the + and - abilities are too similar in concept; both offer your opponent a choice between discarding or losing life. This is fine mechanically since the two work together well (if your opponent chooses to take the damage on the +1 they'll be more likely to discard on the -2, and vice versa), but it makes the card less interesting.
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"In the beginning, MTG Salvation switched to a new forum format.
This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move."
It was at that moment that I realized: I'm kinda just making these things up. We can just write the rules the way we want them to work. People will have fun, and people will get it.
I disagree with MOON-E about the plus and minus having bad synergy, The fewer cards they have in their hand, the less likely they will want to discard, because the first cards they will discard will be the less important ones.
I do think the plus and minus are pretty similar... maybe too similar, but I like the new version a lot.
I actually like this version of Tibalt a lot, granted it's not harder to make something better or more interesting than the original. As stated before by others I think there is some conflict between the +1 and -3 abilities, but other than that its a nice little niche planeswalker that isn't too bad or too good.
+1 deal 2 to opp and discard 1
-3 put a 1/1 black and red devil token with flying onto the battlefield for each card in an opponents graveyard.
-6 sac ultimate
or
+1 opp loses 1 life and discard 1
+0 discard a card then draw a card
-4 each player loses life equal to cards in their graveyard.
It was at that moment that I realized: I'm kinda just making these things up. We can just write the rules the way we want them to work. People will have fun, and people will get it.
The problem now is that the + and - abilities are too similar in concept; both offer your opponent a choice between discarding or losing life. This is fine mechanically since the two work together well (if your opponent chooses to take the damage on the +1 they'll be more likely to discard on the -2, and vice versa), but it makes the card less interesting.
I disagree with MOON-E about the plus and minus having bad synergy, The fewer cards they have in their hand, the less likely they will want to discard, because the first cards they will discard will be the less important ones.
I do think the plus and minus are pretty similar... maybe too similar, but I like the new version a lot.
I actually like this version of Tibalt a lot, granted it's not harder to make something better or more interesting than the original. As stated before by others I think there is some conflict between the +1 and -3 abilities, but other than that its a nice little niche planeswalker that isn't too bad or too good.
Yes, I agree that the first and second abilities of my current version are very similar, but I am not certain of what other variants I can give to him. I wish to keep his second and third abilities as they are, but his first ability may need to be adjusted, so does anyone here have any suggestions for it?
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“Those who would trade their freedoms for security will have neither.”-Benjamin Franklin
“When the people fear the government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty.”-Thomas Jefferson
“A vote is like a rifle; its usefulness depends upon the character of its user.”-Theodore Roosevelt
“Patriotism means to stand by one's country; it does not mean to stand by one's president.”-Theodore Roosevelt
+1: Until your next turn, target creature gets +1/+0 and attacks each turn if able, and prevent all combat damage it would deal to you or Tibalt the Tormentor.
Does this seem too strong on a 3-mana walker? I'm not a go-to on card balance, I just like to pitch ideas.
It seems to fit the Tormentor part of his name nicely in flavor, and the +1/+0 lets you use it for offense if you want to.
After some contemplation, I have revised Tibalt's first ability, again, as seen here.
Tibalt, the Tormentor
Casting Cost: (1)(B)(R)
Type: planeswalker – Tibalt Loyalty: [3] [+1]: tap target creature. That creature deals damage to its controller equal to its power. [-2]: target opponent discards his or her hand unless he or she pays 5 life. [-8]: each opponent chooses four permanents that he or she controls, and then sacrifices the rest.
As I said before, I like his second and third abilities as they are, but his first ability is now akin to backlash, which seems to match his personality well, so what does everyone say about hm, now?
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“Those who would trade their freedoms for security will have neither.”-Benjamin Franklin
“When the people fear the government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty.”-Thomas Jefferson
“A vote is like a rifle; its usefulness depends upon the character of its user.”-Theodore Roosevelt
“Patriotism means to stand by one's country; it does not mean to stand by one's president.”-Theodore Roosevelt
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Casting Cost: (1)(B)(R)
Type: planeswalker – Tibalt
Loyalty: [3]
[+1]: Tibalt, the Tormentor deals 2 damage to target opponent. That player then discards a card.
[-3]: target opponent discards his or her hand unless he or she pays 5 life.
[-8]: each opponent chooses four permanents that he or she controls, and then sacrifices the rest.
What does everyone else say about this? How do you like my new Tibalt?
“When the people fear the government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty.”-Thomas Jefferson
“A vote is like a rifle; its usefulness depends upon the character of its user.”-Theodore Roosevelt
“Patriotism means to stand by one's country; it does not mean to stand by one's president.”-Theodore Roosevelt
That said as undercosted as this Tibalt is, I like the design idea. The choice in the ultimate is so meaningless it doesn't really fit in well enough. I'd like something like:
Finally a good white villain quote: "So, do I ever re-evaluate my life choices? Never, because I know what I'm doing is a righteous cause."
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Casting Cost: (1)(B)(R)
Type: planeswalker – Tibalt
Loyalty: [3]
[+1]: Tibalt, the Tormentor deals 2 damage to target opponent unless that player discards a card.
[-2]: target opponent discards his or her hand unless he or she pays 5 life.
[-8]: each opponent chooses four permanents that he or she controls, and then sacrifices the rest.
“When the people fear the government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty.”-Thomas Jefferson
“A vote is like a rifle; its usefulness depends upon the character of its user.”-Theodore Roosevelt
“Patriotism means to stand by one's country; it does not mean to stand by one's president.”-Theodore Roosevelt
This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move."
Comic Book Set
Archester: Frontier of Steam (A steampunk set!)
A Good Place to Start Designing
I do think the plus and minus are pretty similar... maybe too similar, but I like the new version a lot.
UBRKess, Dissident MageUBR - Controlling Dissidents
GRhonas the IndomitableG - Indomitable Four Drops
WUBOloro, Ageless AsceticWUB - Loot & Renanimate
techoverrated.Other ideas you might want to explore:
+1 deal 2 to opp and discard 1
-3 put a 1/1 black and red devil token with flying onto the battlefield for each card in an opponents graveyard.
-6 sac ultimate
or
+1 opp loses 1 life and discard 1
+0 discard a card then draw a card
-4 each player loses life equal to cards in their graveyard.
This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move."
Comic Book Set
Archester: Frontier of Steam (A steampunk set!)
A Good Place to Start Designing
Yes, I agree that the first and second abilities of my current version are very similar, but I am not certain of what other variants I can give to him. I wish to keep his second and third abilities as they are, but his first ability may need to be adjusted, so does anyone here have any suggestions for it?
“When the people fear the government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty.”-Thomas Jefferson
“A vote is like a rifle; its usefulness depends upon the character of its user.”-Theodore Roosevelt
“Patriotism means to stand by one's country; it does not mean to stand by one's president.”-Theodore Roosevelt
Does this seem too strong on a 3-mana walker? I'm not a go-to on card balance, I just like to pitch ideas.
It seems to fit the Tormentor part of his name nicely in flavor, and the +1/+0 lets you use it for offense if you want to.
Casting Cost: (1)(B)(R)
Type: planeswalker – Tibalt
Loyalty: [3]
[+1]: tap target creature. That creature deals damage to its controller equal to its power.
[-2]: target opponent discards his or her hand unless he or she pays 5 life.
[-8]: each opponent chooses four permanents that he or she controls, and then sacrifices the rest.
“When the people fear the government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty.”-Thomas Jefferson
“A vote is like a rifle; its usefulness depends upon the character of its user.”-Theodore Roosevelt
“Patriotism means to stand by one's country; it does not mean to stand by one's president.”-Theodore Roosevelt