So they had time to read 1010 250 word essay answers?
In the GDS2 article I linked, Rosewater mentions that he read all 110 design tests. Each of the 110 applicants that passed the multiple-choice test submitted a design test. The design test included designing cards. The essay tests were probably not read until the 110 design tests were cut to 30 tests.
In the Magic Show episode I linked, Rosewater mentions that the multiple-choice test was graded on a curve. This means a key component of the multiple-choice test is to cut down the number of applicants. If Rosewater wanted to review more than 110 design tests, he could have shifted the curve accordingly.
Would shifting a portion of the design test before the multiple-choice test have allowed more designers to pass? Possibly, but that defeats the purpose of cutting down the number of applicants for the design test.
It's not just the time being spent that should be considered. It's the time plus the expected return on spending that time. Reviewing one extra design question may result in negligible time, relative to the entire review process. However, I don't think it adds significant value, as it simply means more design tests to review, which Rosewater didn't want to do in the first place. If it's not worth it, why do it?
As TobyornotToby also mentioned, the goal of the contest is not to find the best designer in 1120 applicants. The goal is to sift through 1120 applicants at a managable pace, and find 1 qualified applicant that can be the Magic intern.
What makes monetary transactions in an urban setting more natural than, say, bartering? Why use these little metal pieces as a mediator when you can just trade one thing for another, as needed?
I have a Ferrari. You want my Ferrari. What do you have to trade me that's worth a Ferrari?
Oh my goddd, first Loucks' article on ChannelFireball, now this? I am so tired of people complaining about the multiple choice test, seriously. What a waste of time.
Discussing the multiple choice test was a waste of time to some, but to others, it was an interesting topic.
I have not actually heard any argument for why the final three are not good candidates for an internship at R&D. I have only heard grumbling and generalizations.
I can't speak for others, but I think I've been pretty clear that the candidates are better developers than they are designers.
...
Ultimately, I haven't seen a single person who has claimed, "All the contestants are terrible" produce submissions even remotely approaching the quality of the work from the final 3...
I think it all goes back to vision. Those without vision aren't going to be able to notice others with vision. That's just the nature of it. If your perspective on design is flawed, then good design will seem terrible to you. Or, more generally, you won't have the capacity to see the underlying value hidden in an idea, a design, a mechanic...
Either you haven't seen any of my productions or you lack vision. I can't think of any other explanation because many of my designs are superior and we've already established that my perspective on design is as close to perfect as possible without actually working for Magic R&D.
Rarity is important for designers, we've seen this with Jonathon's Challenge 2 submission.
What has been done too is very important for designers.
Those who don't see the relevance of the test questions to design should learn more about design.
In the end, the idea is that it doesn't matter if the best designer accidentally got cut by the test. Whether they have someone who's 96% suited for the job versus a 97% one doesn't matter that much. As a show, they present it to us as "the great search for the best designer" but in the end it is just a search to fill up an intern position.
My guess is they read the essays of the top20 or something, to make a better informed choice for the final cuts.
I'm guessing luminum can. Am I right?
Thanks to everyone for all the perspective concerning the test. I concede that though it was far from perfect, ultimately the test did what it was supposed to do. The top three have stepped up to the challenge one way or another, and while there are a few more naturally talented amateur designers out there, they are few indeed. I actually like where the top three took their worlds and can't wait to see what kind of impact the winner(s) will have on the future of Magic.
EDIT: And I think Leprechauns are the obvious best solution to gold counters in green.
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I care less about us making mistakes that lead to degenerate environments than I am when we don’t push ourselves and make something that’s boring to play. - MaRo
Either you haven't seen any of my productions or you lack vision. I can't think of any other explanation because many of my designs are superior and we've already established that my perspective on design is as close to perfect as possible without actually working for Magic R&D.
Either you haven't seen any of my productions or you lack vision. I can't think of any other explanation because many of my designs are superior and we've already established that my perspective on design is as close to perfect as possible without actually working for Magic R&D.
I care less about us making mistakes that lead to degenerate environments than I am when we don’t push ourselves and make something that’s boring to play. - MaRo
What makes monetary transactions in an urban setting more natural than, say, bartering? Why use these little metal pieces as a mediator when you can just trade one thing for another, as needed?
What makes it less natural? I'm confused on the difference here. Are you trying to say that green eschews common (fundamental even) traditions on their plane?
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Listen to my M:tG flavor Podcast: Story Circle! (Newest episode is all about Innistrad previews.)
Mostly for fun, to resolve gold and green: what if green hireling creatures were hungry, literally, for gold? Given, gold-eating monsters sound weird, but maybe replace gold with some more-sensical resource. So you fed the mineral-deficient bear some food, and now it's a little healthier, and will fight for you.
EDIT: Another silly idea: elves are collecting money to fund the doomsday weapon they will use to turn on the vile city.
Who, exactly, has established that your perspectives on design are "as close to perfect as possible without actually working for Magic R&D?" I certainly haven't. I don't know anyone other than you who has.
No, I'm not TobyornotToby. I'm luminum can. Why would I be using a different username?
What makes it less natural? I'm confused on the difference here. Are you trying to say that green eschews common (fundamental even) traditions on their plane?
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Minting gold currency is wasteful, in Green's eyes; it uses materials that could be used for more practical purposes and encourages mining and uprooting more and more naturally occurring resources far faster than the natural world can recover from it.
Even if green is forced to live in a world where they have no choice but to live in "civilized" society, where they must engage in trade and markets in order to get the resources for living, it is not happy about it. All of those things are not natural, in its eyes. They are an order brought about not by nature but by the machinations of living things, who feel that their order is superior to that which exists between the beasts of the forests, simple bonds of predator and prey, producer and consumer. Green is the rebel in such a world, tearing down the walls of those who would oppress nature's own order with their man-made laws.
Who, exactly, has established that your perspectives on design are "as close to perfect as possible without actually working for Magic R&D?" I certainly haven't. I don't know anyone other than you who has.
Everything he's posted on the forums thus far has either been really crappy design or claims that have no evidence. And he knows this.
If his stuff is actually good, he should consider entering the DCC to put his claims to the test. If you think you are the world's best martial artist, it is easy to test. You fight other martial artists. If you think you are the best Magic designer, you compete with other Magic designers.
As far as the actual GDS2 goes, anyone have guess on what the final challenge will be?
And for the record, I strongly doubt that Green creatures have never traded in currency, even on the planes we've seen in Magic thus far. Just because Devon made Gold a mechanic does not mean planes like Kamigawa or Dominaria lacked currency. That is like saying a vedelkan has never grown a plant. Color identity does not define the ultimate limit of what a creature of that color can do, setting wise. Mechanics limited by color is a gameplay consideration.
In the previous Search, the final test (after individual interviews) was for the three finalists to fill a hypothetical last-minute hole in Urza's Legacy, by trying to make a replacement for Opposition that was a blue rare, using the same art, filling the same spot in the card numbering (name had to fit alphabetically), and wasn't something that needed a lot of playtesting or tweaking before sending the set off to the printers. They each came up with an idea and then collectively had to argue their cases for which should fill the hole.
I have no idea if something similar will be done. The main purposes of that test had been to put them under extreme deadline pressure (only a few hours to work) with extremely strict requirements, and to show how they could argue their ideas effectively.
Who, exactly, has established that your perspectives on design are "as close to perfect as possible without actually working for Magic R&D?" I certainly haven't. I don't know anyone other than you who has.
I know for a fact that I'm one of the best amateur designers ever and I'm just about always right when it comes to design - as close to perfect as possible without actually working for Magic R&D. It's development that I'm not so good at.
Everything he's posted on the forums thus far has either been really crappy design
Everything, really, compared to who? Seriously. The GDS2ers? lol Yeah, keep telling yourself that. Everyone posts crappy designs at times. MaRo says that even his designs are often altered or downright rejected by development. Does that make them crappy? It's a good thing MaRo thinks like me or we'd still be playing with stuff like Homelands. My guess is that you, like unbrokencircle, are one of the Twitterers who feel like they contributed to what they think was a job well done and anyone who doesn't agree with them is bad at design.
or claims that have no evidence. And he knows this.
Are you referring to my "bragging rights" posts? Is there a particular one you don't believe or just all of them? I might be able to dig up a link or two.
If his stuff is actually good, he should consider entering the DCC to put his claims to the test. If you think you are the world's best martial artist, it is easy to test. You fight other martial artists. If you think you are the best Magic designer, you compete with other Magic designers.
I didn't say I was the best. What and were is the DCC?
I care less about us making mistakes that lead to degenerate environments than I am when we don’t push ourselves and make something that’s boring to play. - MaRo
Forum games, a daily competition where people vote on one-shot singleton card designs, where usually the wonkier, cooler, more new effects get more glory. It is a sub-forum of this very forum.
EDIT: My mistake, everything I have seen that you've posted. You are right to assume that I haven't seen everything you've posted. The comparison is made to stuff that the regular submitters post.
I know for a fact that I'm one of the best amateur designers ever and I'm just about always right when it comes to design - as close to perfect as possible without actually working for Magic R&D. It's development that I'm not so good at.
Just so long as you have a good reason for your belief!
I just thought it might be you. Why would anyone be using a different username? Your guess is as good as mine. Anonymity, I suppose?
TobyornotToby is a well-established poster on the Wizards boards (as am I, for that matter, although I'm also new on this site). My guess is that he probably doesn't have any other user names here, or else he wouldn't be using that one.
There I go again trolling and getting out-trolled in return.
Forgive me please. It's a natural tendency of mine. I honestly don't do it on purpose. I've made my peace and stated in an earlier post that the GDS2 contestants are fine in my book. And I'm not just saying that. I really mean it. I'm impressed by how much these guys rose to the challenge. And damn if I aint jealous.
And sure, I could comment once again on how they could've done better by tapping into awesome resources such as me and been more daring in their designs and so-forth, but I've already pointed all that out so I'm not going to say a single word about Twitter. (JK)
Okay, moving on... green and gold counters... anything can be justified in any color. Does that make it okay? Of course not. Personally, I would rather see gold counters constitute a role reversal between colors in terms of mana production to accommodate the flavor of a block rather than see them predominately in green simply because mana production is one of green's roles so long as it's executed in a manner that doesn't desecrate the color pie (especially blue) in the eternal formats - and by 'desecrate', I mean make ripples on the constructed pond. Gold counters should also add one mana of any color. Not only does that differentiate them from Eldrazi Spawn and open design space (which really is the most important factor imo), but it fits perfectly with the traditional mango term 'gold cards' used in lieu of multicolored cards.
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I care less about us making mistakes that lead to degenerate environments than I am when we don’t push ourselves and make something that’s boring to play. - MaRo
There I go again trolling and getting out-trolled in return.
You're not supposed to admit it! Pffft! Amateur.
Forgive me please. It's a natural tendency of mine. I honestly don't do it on purpose.
If it's any consolation, you were hilarious. We even had a special #hashtag for you on Twitter. And I thanked you on my wiki page.
I've made my peace and stated in an earlier post that the GDS2 contestants are fine in my book. And I'm not just saying that. I really mean it. I'm impressed by how much these guys rose to the challenge. And damn if I aint jealous.
I hadn't noticed.
And sure, I could comment once again on how they could've done better by tapping into awesome resources such as me and been more daring in their designs and so-forth, but I've already pointed all that out so I'm not going to say a single word about Twitter. (JK)
I actually agree with you about the conservative tendencies of our designs. I think it's a function of how the contest was structured. I'm considering writing an article about it. I'll think it over a bit and see if I can figure out what the causal relationships were.
Okay, moving on... green and gold counters... anything can be justified in any color. Does that make it okay? Of course not. Personally, I would rather see gold counters constitute a role reversal between colors in terms of mana production to accommodate the flavor of a block rather than see them predominately in green simply because mana production is one of green's roles so long as it's executed in a manner that doesn't desecrate the color pie (especially blue) in the eternal formats - and by 'desecrate', I mean make ripples on the constructed pond. Gold counters should also add one mana of any color. Not only does that differentiate them from Eldrazi Spawn and open design space (which really is the most important factor imo), but it fits perfectly with the traditional mango term 'gold cards' used in lieu of multicolored cards.
R&D has made 5-color manafixing more and more accessible in the last few years, so I think that 5-color gold is realistic, and would serve to differentiate Gold from Spawn.
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-Ethan Fleischer, Magic Designer, Wizards of the Coast
Random point of interest: I'd say it was less than 1010, for the number of essays read. You had to make it into the "Yes" pile first, I'll wager. I'm guessing the essays were probably one of the last things done, and iirc that number would be closer to 380 essays at the upper limit. That's 95000 words, or about 150-200 pages of a paperback novel at the most, and I think I'm shooting high there. Easily done in the space of a week if not a day.
Reading different kinds of text takes different amounts of time. I can read X words of a Harry Potter novel faster than I can read (and comprehend and evaluate) X words of a conference paper. Reading the essays almost certainly falls between those points. They're written to be relatively easy reads (and if they're not, that helps with the evaluation), but they're still more technical, dense, and disjointed (every sentence is a new topic) than bulk novel text and all but the worst require focused evaluation.
I'd like to point out Suture Priest to support some of my previous posts in this thread in which I ranted about the hypocrisy of R&D (among other things). I ask you, where does this card fit into the color pie? White causes black style loss of life now? That goes way beyond color bleeding. The card doesn't even qualify as a hybrid card. Clearly it should be WB.
I understand the justification behind it, but I do not agree with it. If even luminum can(MTGS 2010 cardmaker of the year award winner, you may have heard of him) were to post this in the card creation forum (which he wouldn't) explaining how "The usually good white mana things of my world were infected by necra and became evil so now it can do stuff only black has done for 17 years. No really...", it would get shot down by every member that even bothered to respond to such rubbish. WotC should have demonstrated contamination from one color into another with gold (multicolored) cards - not by giving a blood transfusion from one color to another. This card stands in complete opposition to WotC's own supposed design conventions. This is a perfect real time example of what I mean when I refer to the hypocrisy and doublespeak of MaRo and R&D.
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I care less about us making mistakes that lead to degenerate environments than I am when we don’t push ourselves and make something that’s boring to play. - MaRo
It probably is a wild stretch on the sub-theme White has of Taxing.
Honestly, when I first saw the card my eyes rolled. White seems to be the color they will let bleed out the most. If they let Red bleed out some, that might be excusable because Red has a distinct lack of mechanics.
Anyone else afraid what will happen when the Phyrexian oil infects some Eldrazi?
Anyways, this is way off topic from the GDS2. See you guys in March, hah.
It's funny you mention me, there. While I don't know if I would have dreamt up that particular card, I actually find it really appealing. I enjoy the occasional use of cards from the crust of the color pie, interpreting a color's philosophy by using atypical mechanics. I loved Planar Chaos, and from the look of Suture Priest and some of the Phyrexian cards in Mirrodin Besieged, we're going to be seeing more of this type of card in the next few months. That makes me happy.
I don't want these sorts of cards to show up all the time. The status quo "core" of the pie exists for a reason. But being able to stretch our wings from time to time, and explore colors from different angles, can provide very fun, exciting, and thought-provoking results. There are some lines that shouldn't be crossed, of course, but I don't see Suture Priest as having crossed it. The flavor is still true to white (rewarding the members of its flock, punishing those outside it) and the life loss effect is weak enough to not be unbalancing for its color (plus life loss is weaker in a block with infect and lots of life gain). It's an interesting and refreshing twist that takes white philosophy and examines it through a more vindictive Phyrexian lens. It's not a permanent change, only an experimental twist to keep things fresh and interesting. A simple change to life loss from life gain makes what would be an awfully boring card into something much more exciting and eye-catching.
It probably is a wild stretch on the sub-theme White has of Taxing.
Suture Priest looks to me like a drain-type card. Mono-Black would make more sense than mono-White.
Anyone else afraid what will happen when the Phyrexian oil infects some Eldrazi?
Perhaps the Eldrazi are immune, the same way that Planeswalkers (at least old Planeswalkers) are? Not much point to Infecting your victims if you're just going to Annihilate them, anyway.
Anyways, this is way off topic from the GDS2. See you guys in March, hah.
Other than the fact that we wouldn't dare let our GDS2 cards bleed like that, that's true.
In the context of the GDS/amateur design, it's also important to recognize that they chose to bend the color pie here as an extension of very explicit developments within the structure of the block. As all GDS contestants were presenting the initial set, it was significantly more pressing that they provide a stable base from which it might've been possible to introduce this type of shenanigan.
I'm sorry Pachuco and luminum but ...spoken like a true MaRo parrots. Exaclty the line of thinking (or lack thereof) that I'm rebuking.
My post has EVERYTHING to do with the competition (retrospectively) if for no other reason that if this card was on the multiple choice test, there could have been no correct answer within the confines of the then conventional design standards.
I'm sorry luminum, as much as I respect your generally superior insight into Magic design, you're wrong on this one - this card is utter trash from a design perspective. Any card in any color can be justified from a flavor perspective, which is what you are doing in your above post. Every amateur designer who has been at it long enough knows this. I'm tempted to side with you. I myself have been very outspoken about the outer limits of if - not the transparency of - the color pie at other forums if not here (Note my recent Clear Cards thread predating my knowledge of Suture Priest), but this is where even I draw the line.
Recently - in an article which I quoted in this very thread - MaRo revealed the precedence flavor holds over mechanics whenever there is any flexibility to be had. I have no doubt whatsoever that he was prepping his audience for bullmess like Suture Priest.
Like I said, I understand the justification behind Suture Priest, but I can't agree with it. And I would dare say, six or even three or less months ago, that even luminum wouldn't have agreed with it despite his above statements - nor would have anyone else on this site.
Why is it that when WotC prints something that contradicts every single thing they've ever said about design, people think it's ingenious?
Yet when one of we amateurs do it, we "don't understand design".Suture Priest is a perfect real-time example of what I mean when I refer to the hypocrisy and doublespeak of MaRo and R&D.
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I care less about us making mistakes that lead to degenerate environments than I am when we don’t push ourselves and make something that’s boring to play. - MaRo
Yet whenever I look at the card, I find it so incredibly appealing. I know that white has almost never had direct damage to players, but it feels right to me in that context. I can't say the same for many other pie bleeds, like black enchantment removal, but this is a bleed that is at once harmless (in terms of giving a color some measure of power it shouldn't), flavorful, and aesthetically appealing (equal and opposite effects). It hits all the right notes for me.
There is of course a slippery slope when you let any card be justified by flavor, but that's not what I was saying. Occasional bleeds, when they don't do harm in terms of gameplay, aren't bad at all. I loved Planar Chaos, and this is far less of a stretch than some of what went on in that set. This doesn't change what the norm is for the color, it lies on the fringe, the crust, of the pie. It's never been done before, but does that matter? I want to see things that have never been done before. Those are things that excite me. Tease me with the possibilities of what could be, but isn't.
Would I have been okay with Suture Priest if the first time I'd seen it was as a text-only post in this forum? Maybe, maybe not. I'd want it to be justified by the poster's setting if nothing else. If it was printed in, say, Zendikar, with setting-appropriate name and art, would I like it as much? Definitely not. In a different context, it loses a lot of its appeal and a lot of its justification for bleeding. But, it's being printed in New Phyrexia. That changes things. It puts it into a context where "dark" flavor bleeds make much more sense. How is Phyrexian white different from Mirran white? Oh, that's how. That's something new and unsettling and exciting. The context of the setting changes everything.
And that links back to this contest's focus on vision. A vision of a setting can lead down paths in design and flavor that stray from the norm. If handled carefully, those deviations can make something very interesting and new, using tools that wouldn't make sense otherwise. It's not about letting everything go, and being a total slave to flavor, but by letting that setting guide you down new avenues and paths that have never been seen before. How extreme you can go is iffy... it takes a delicate hand to do it right without going too far into the deep end. But when it does happen right, it's something wonderful.
That's my thoughts on the matter. No citations or quotes or anything here, just whatever stuff was spouting out of my brain at 2 in the morning.
In the GDS2 article I linked, Rosewater mentions that he read all 110 design tests. Each of the 110 applicants that passed the multiple-choice test submitted a design test. The design test included designing cards. The essay tests were probably not read until the 110 design tests were cut to 30 tests.
In the Magic Show episode I linked, Rosewater mentions that the multiple-choice test was graded on a curve. This means a key component of the multiple-choice test is to cut down the number of applicants. If Rosewater wanted to review more than 110 design tests, he could have shifted the curve accordingly.
Would shifting a portion of the design test before the multiple-choice test have allowed more designers to pass? Possibly, but that defeats the purpose of cutting down the number of applicants for the design test.
It's not just the time being spent that should be considered. It's the time plus the expected return on spending that time. Reviewing one extra design question may result in negligible time, relative to the entire review process. However, I don't think it adds significant value, as it simply means more design tests to review, which Rosewater didn't want to do in the first place. If it's not worth it, why do it?
As TobyornotToby also mentioned, the goal of the contest is not to find the best designer in 1120 applicants. The goal is to sift through 1120 applicants at a managable pace, and find 1 qualified applicant that can be the Magic intern.
I have a Ferrari. You want my Ferrari. What do you have to trade me that's worth a Ferrari?
Discussing the multiple choice test was a waste of time to some, but to others, it was an interesting topic.
I can't speak for others, but I think I've been pretty clear that the candidates are better developers than they are designers.
Either you haven't seen any of my productions or you lack vision. I can't think of any other explanation because many of my designs are superior and we've already established that my perspective on design is as close to perfect as possible without actually working for Magic R&D.
I'm guessing luminum can. Am I right?
Thanks to everyone for all the perspective concerning the test. I concede that though it was far from perfect, ultimately the test did what it was supposed to do. The top three have stepped up to the challenge one way or another, and while there are a few more naturally talented amateur designers out there, they are few indeed. I actually like where the top three took their worlds and can't wait to see what kind of impact the winner(s) will have on the future of Magic.
EDIT: And I think Leprechauns are the obvious best solution to gold counters in green.
I'm really hoping this is sarcasm.
What about me, now?
R Citizen Cane (Feldon of the Third Path)
I'm never sarcastic.
Are you not TobyornotToby?
What makes it less natural? I'm confused on the difference here. Are you trying to say that green eschews common (fundamental even) traditions on their plane?
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Winner of the 2nd Design Survivor Contest
Creator of the Vorthos Card Contest
Winner of 12th and the 18th Short Story Contests
Creator of the Vs. Tournament.
--Runner of the Superhero Vs. Tounrament
--Runner of the Villian Vs. Tournament.
EDIT: Another silly idea: elves are collecting money to fund the doomsday weapon they will use to turn on the vile city.
Who, exactly, has established that your perspectives on design are "as close to perfect as possible without actually working for Magic R&D?" I certainly haven't. I don't know anyone other than you who has.
No, I'm not TobyornotToby. I'm luminum can. Why would I be using a different username?
Minting gold currency is wasteful, in Green's eyes; it uses materials that could be used for more practical purposes and encourages mining and uprooting more and more naturally occurring resources far faster than the natural world can recover from it.
Even if green is forced to live in a world where they have no choice but to live in "civilized" society, where they must engage in trade and markets in order to get the resources for living, it is not happy about it. All of those things are not natural, in its eyes. They are an order brought about not by nature but by the machinations of living things, who feel that their order is superior to that which exists between the beasts of the forests, simple bonds of predator and prey, producer and consumer. Green is the rebel in such a world, tearing down the walls of those who would oppress nature's own order with their man-made laws.
R Citizen Cane (Feldon of the Third Path)
Everything he's posted on the forums thus far has either been really crappy design or claims that have no evidence. And he knows this.
If his stuff is actually good, he should consider entering the DCC to put his claims to the test. If you think you are the world's best martial artist, it is easy to test. You fight other martial artists. If you think you are the best Magic designer, you compete with other Magic designers.
As far as the actual GDS2 goes, anyone have guess on what the final challenge will be?
And for the record, I strongly doubt that Green creatures have never traded in currency, even on the planes we've seen in Magic thus far. Just because Devon made Gold a mechanic does not mean planes like Kamigawa or Dominaria lacked currency. That is like saying a vedelkan has never grown a plant. Color identity does not define the ultimate limit of what a creature of that color can do, setting wise. Mechanics limited by color is a gameplay consideration.
I have no idea if something similar will be done. The main purposes of that test had been to put them under extreme deadline pressure (only a few hours to work) with extremely strict requirements, and to show how they could argue their ideas effectively.
R Citizen Cane (Feldon of the Third Path)
I know for a fact that I'm one of the best amateur designers ever and I'm just about always right when it comes to design - as close to perfect as possible without actually working for Magic R&D. It's development that I'm not so good at.
I just thought it might be you. Why would anyone be using a different username? Your guess is as good as mine. Anonymity, I suppose?
Everything, really, compared to who? Seriously. The GDS2ers? lol Yeah, keep telling yourself that. Everyone posts crappy designs at times. MaRo says that even his designs are often altered or downright rejected by development. Does that make them crappy? It's a good thing MaRo thinks like me or we'd still be playing with stuff like Homelands. My guess is that you, like unbrokencircle, are one of the Twitterers who feel like they contributed to what they think was a job well done and anyone who doesn't agree with them is bad at design.
Are you referring to my "bragging rights" posts? Is there a particular one you don't believe or just all of them? I might be able to dig up a link or two.
I didn't say I was the best. What and were is the DCC?
EDIT: My mistake, everything I have seen that you've posted. You are right to assume that I haven't seen everything you've posted. The comparison is made to stuff that the regular submitters post.
Just so long as you have a good reason for your belief!
TobyornotToby is a well-established poster on the Wizards boards (as am I, for that matter, although I'm also new on this site). My guess is that he probably doesn't have any other user names here, or else he wouldn't be using that one.
Forgive me please. It's a natural tendency of mine. I honestly don't do it on purpose. I've made my peace and stated in an earlier post that the GDS2 contestants are fine in my book. And I'm not just saying that. I really mean it. I'm impressed by how much these guys rose to the challenge. And damn if I aint jealous.
And sure, I could comment once again on how they could've done better by tapping into awesome resources such as me and been more daring in their designs and so-forth, but I've already pointed all that out so I'm not going to say a single word about Twitter. (JK)
Okay, moving on... green and gold counters... anything can be justified in any color. Does that make it okay? Of course not. Personally, I would rather see gold counters constitute a role reversal between colors in terms of mana production to accommodate the flavor of a block rather than see them predominately in green simply because mana production is one of green's roles so long as it's executed in a manner that doesn't desecrate the color pie (especially blue) in the eternal formats - and by 'desecrate', I mean make ripples on the constructed pond. Gold counters should also add one mana of any color. Not only does that differentiate them from Eldrazi Spawn and open design space (which really is the most important factor imo), but it fits perfectly with the traditional mango term 'gold cards' used in lieu of multicolored cards.
You're not supposed to admit it! Pffft! Amateur.
If it's any consolation, you were hilarious. We even had a special #hashtag for you on Twitter. And I thanked you on my wiki page.
I hadn't noticed.
I actually agree with you about the conservative tendencies of our designs. I think it's a function of how the contest was structured. I'm considering writing an article about it. I'll think it over a bit and see if I can figure out what the causal relationships were.
R&D has made 5-color manafixing more and more accessible in the last few years, so I think that 5-color gold is realistic, and would serve to differentiate Gold from Spawn.
Past Ruminations
Links are broken, will fix in near future.
- Kaladesh
- Zendikar
- Rise of the Eldrazi
- Alara Reborn
- Innistrad <- Personal Favorite
- Dark Ascension
- Avacyn Restored
- Theros
- Return to Ravnica
- Tarkir
I understand the justification behind it, but I do not agree with it. If even luminum can (MTGS 2010 cardmaker of the year award winner, you may have heard of him) were to post this in the card creation forum (which he wouldn't) explaining how "The usually good white mana things of my world were infected by necra and became evil so now it can do stuff only black has done for 17 years. No really...", it would get shot down by every member that even bothered to respond to such rubbish. WotC should have demonstrated contamination from one color into another with gold (multicolored) cards - not by giving a blood transfusion from one color to another. This card stands in complete opposition to WotC's own supposed design conventions. This is a perfect real time example of what I mean when I refer to the hypocrisy and doublespeak of MaRo and R&D.
Honestly, when I first saw the card my eyes rolled. White seems to be the color they will let bleed out the most. If they let Red bleed out some, that might be excusable because Red has a distinct lack of mechanics.
Anyone else afraid what will happen when the Phyrexian oil infects some Eldrazi?
Anyways, this is way off topic from the GDS2. See you guys in March, hah.
I don't want these sorts of cards to show up all the time. The status quo "core" of the pie exists for a reason. But being able to stretch our wings from time to time, and explore colors from different angles, can provide very fun, exciting, and thought-provoking results. There are some lines that shouldn't be crossed, of course, but I don't see Suture Priest as having crossed it. The flavor is still true to white (rewarding the members of its flock, punishing those outside it) and the life loss effect is weak enough to not be unbalancing for its color (plus life loss is weaker in a block with infect and lots of life gain). It's an interesting and refreshing twist that takes white philosophy and examines it through a more vindictive Phyrexian lens. It's not a permanent change, only an experimental twist to keep things fresh and interesting. A simple change to life loss from life gain makes what would be an awfully boring card into something much more exciting and eye-catching.
R Citizen Cane (Feldon of the Third Path)
Suture Priest looks to me like a drain-type card. Mono-Black would make more sense than mono-White.
Perhaps the Eldrazi are immune, the same way that Planeswalkers (at least old Planeswalkers) are? Not much point to Infecting your victims if you're just going to Annihilate them, anyway.
Other than the fact that we wouldn't dare let our GDS2 cards bleed like that, that's true.
- 4/22/12, Knowledge from the Helvault (Part 1)
My post has EVERYTHING to do with the competition (retrospectively) if for no other reason that if this card was on the multiple choice test, there could have been no correct answer within the confines of the then conventional design standards.
I'm sorry luminum, as much as I respect your generally superior insight into Magic design, you're wrong on this one - this card is utter trash from a design perspective. Any card in any color can be justified from a flavor perspective, which is what you are doing in your above post. Every amateur designer who has been at it long enough knows this. I'm tempted to side with you. I myself have been very outspoken about the outer limits of if - not the transparency of - the color pie at other forums if not here (Note my recent Clear Cards thread predating my knowledge of Suture Priest), but this is where even I draw the line.
Recently - in an article which I quoted in this very thread - MaRo revealed the precedence flavor holds over mechanics whenever there is any flexibility to be had. I have no doubt whatsoever that he was prepping his audience for bullmess like Suture Priest.
Like I said, I understand the justification behind Suture Priest, but I can't agree with it. And I would dare say, six or even three or less months ago, that even luminum wouldn't have agreed with it despite his above statements - nor would have anyone else on this site.
Why is it that when WotC prints something that contradicts every single thing they've ever said about design, people think it's ingenious?
Yet when one of we amateurs do it, we "don't understand design".Suture Priest is a perfect real-time example of what I mean when I refer to the hypocrisy and doublespeak of MaRo and R&D.
There is of course a slippery slope when you let any card be justified by flavor, but that's not what I was saying. Occasional bleeds, when they don't do harm in terms of gameplay, aren't bad at all. I loved Planar Chaos, and this is far less of a stretch than some of what went on in that set. This doesn't change what the norm is for the color, it lies on the fringe, the crust, of the pie. It's never been done before, but does that matter? I want to see things that have never been done before. Those are things that excite me. Tease me with the possibilities of what could be, but isn't.
Would I have been okay with Suture Priest if the first time I'd seen it was as a text-only post in this forum? Maybe, maybe not. I'd want it to be justified by the poster's setting if nothing else. If it was printed in, say, Zendikar, with setting-appropriate name and art, would I like it as much? Definitely not. In a different context, it loses a lot of its appeal and a lot of its justification for bleeding. But, it's being printed in New Phyrexia. That changes things. It puts it into a context where "dark" flavor bleeds make much more sense. How is Phyrexian white different from Mirran white? Oh, that's how. That's something new and unsettling and exciting. The context of the setting changes everything.
And that links back to this contest's focus on vision. A vision of a setting can lead down paths in design and flavor that stray from the norm. If handled carefully, those deviations can make something very interesting and new, using tools that wouldn't make sense otherwise. It's not about letting everything go, and being a total slave to flavor, but by letting that setting guide you down new avenues and paths that have never been seen before. How extreme you can go is iffy... it takes a delicate hand to do it right without going too far into the deep end. But when it does happen right, it's something wonderful.
That's my thoughts on the matter. No citations or quotes or anything here, just whatever stuff was spouting out of my brain at 2 in the morning.
R Citizen Cane (Feldon of the Third Path)