Selesnya Pathway Land (C) T: Add 1 to your mana pool. (G/W),T, Sacrifice Selesnya Pathway: Search your library for a basic Forest card and a basic Plains card, reveal those cards, and put one onto the battlefield tapped and the other into your hand. Then shuffle your library.
This would be part of a ten card [e:BLOCK] cycle at common. Does it look fair?
I like what you're doing here a lot, my only concern being the possibility of clogging up your packs with these at common. Possibly could be spread out over a block or the set could be expanded to count for these.
Overall a big fan of this mechanic, I like more mana fixing at common without cutting into green's spells or forcing random signets into a set.
You've got to remember this is an uncounterable kodama's reach for 1 mana and a land drop. It is mana fixing gold.
MAYBE switch the mana cost with a "discard" cost... but even that would make this very efficient at smoothing out bad draws. So efficient, in fact, I could hardly imagine a 2 color deck that didn't run 4x of these. But as is, I could see 3 or 4 color decks arises using these as a means to fix mana and get card advantage easily.
Edit: Also that's an aweful lot of text.
Maybe if you changed the activation to colorless, and put both into your hand... it's be card advantage at the cost of land drops. Nowhere near as good, but it'd have a place.
You've got to remember this is an uncounterable kodama's reach for 1 mana and a land drop. It is mana fixing gold.
MAYBE switch the mana cost with a "discard" cost... but even that would make this very efficient at smoothing out bad draws. So efficient, in fact, I could hardly imagine a 2 color deck that didn't run 4x of these. But as is, I could see 3 or 4 color decks arises using these as a means to fix mana and get card advantage easily.
Edit: Also that's an aweful lot of text.
Maybe if you changed the activation to colorless, and put both into your hand... it's be card advantage at the cost of land drops. Nowhere near as good, but it'd have a place.
Kodama's Reach ramps you. This doesn't. This functions differently but gives you exactly the same amount and color of mana that a Karoo from Ravnica would. If Karoo + basic is a decent start in Ravnica limited and did not make much splash in the standard environment, how are these overpowered?
Commons aren't required to be mediocre, and in a mana-hungry set these would help a lot to play more creative limited environments with three or four colors.
The hybrid mana may fit with set themes or color pairings, the OP would have to shed some light on that. And there's not a whole lot more text here than Terramorphic Expanse / Evolving Wilds, which have seen multiple recent printings at common.
Kodama's Reach ramps you. This doesn't. This functions differently but gives you exactly the same amount and color of mana that a Karoo from Ravnica would. If Karoo + basic is a decent start in Ravnica limited and did not make much splash in the standard environment, how are these overpowered?
Here's a hint: If your forest said "next turn, you may pay 2 mana. If you do, draw a card", we'd all be playing forests.
Commons aren't required to be mediocre, and in a mana-hungry set these would help a lot to play more creative limited environments with three or four colors.
Again, my position is it's too powerful at rare, not that it's not right as a common.
Here's a hint: If your forest said "next turn, you may pay 2 mana. If you do, draw a card", we'd all be playing forests.
Here's a hint: drawing a card and searching for a basic land are not the same thing. That Plains is always a Plains, but a draw could be anything. It could even be a boat! You know how much we've always wanted one of those.
You could do well to be less of a jerk whether or not your opinions differ from someone else.
Also, important question: Karoos give you a free land and take up your turn two mana production to do it. Why doesn't the rest of the world get that? I mean, its a free card! Why doesn't everyone in every eternal format build decks with a bunch of Karoos?
If you gave me 4 of these or 4 ravnica shocks, or 4 scars duals... or 4 M10 duals... or 4 filter lands.... or 4 Pain lands... I would always want to play duals over this. This cycle + basic lands can never hit GG and WW on turn three, while duals can let me play an Armadillo Cloak, Elvish Archdruid and Glorious Anthem of Forest, Plains and a dual. This is in addition to having WW or GG on turn two instead of wasting it on an activated ability.
The cycle BoomerAang Squad designed is solid fixing but clunky for anything past Standard. The power level is exactly where it should be.
Again, my position is it's too powerful at rare, not that it's not right as a common.
If you want your good commons, uncommons and rares to all be at the same power level, why bother with rarity?
This is a solid common in a multiolored set. If the set doesn't hit on the theme too heavy, it probably gets moved to uncommon to make sure the limited environment works around it without their presence pushing three color decks. In no way is this a rare quality card. Krosan Verge is the closest example, and in a draft format where power creep was significantly lower and dual lands had not come as far as they have in present times, Krosan Verge was an uncommon.
There is no evidence that this is overpowered at common or uncommon, let alone declaring it too good for rare.
The outcome of this is comparable with the Guild-Karoos, but the problem this has compared with them is that this enters untapped and can be played first turn and can be tapped for colorless first turn.
While there is a space for cycles of mana fixing, I like the design space of colorless unspecified mana fixing. In my explorations of the design space of colorless fetch lands, spurred on by the functional reprints of Terramorphic Expanse and Evolving Wilds, I have come up with two Cultivate land variations that I think work really well.
Winding Trail Land (C) ,T, Sacrifice CARDNAME: Search your library for up to two basic land cards and reveal them. Put one onto the field tapped and the other into your hand. (Then shuffle your library.)
Crossroads Land (C) T, Sacrifice CARDNAME, Discard a card: Search your library for up to two basic land cards and reveal them. Put one onto the field tapped and the other into your hand. (Then shuffle your library.)
With just slightly different cost they fill really different roles and they would not be in the same set. Winding Trail provides card advantage, but can't be used until turn three (like Cultivate). Crossroads fixes your mana well in the early game, but is not as good late when you have less cards to choose from to discard. Neither one accelerates your mana; they just put an extra land card into your hand.
Also, important question: Karoos give you a free land and take up your turn two mana production to do it. Why doesn't the rest of the world get that? I mean, its a free card! Why doesn't everyone in every eternal format build decks with a bunch of Karoos?
Karoos don't deckthin and burn a turn. These apparently come into play untapped and provide colorless.
I've played Ravnica block enough to know that sometimes if you run 3-5 bouncelands, you get the 2 bounceland opening hand with no other lands. And if you got 2 of these cards in your opening hand, you'd keep.
If you gave me 4 of these or 4 ravnica shocks, or 4 scars duals... or 4 M10 duals... or 4 filter lands.... or 4 Pain lands... I would always want to play duals over this.
You'd play both and you'd like it. In a control deck, though, you'd like these much more.
This cycle + basic lands can never hit GG and WW on turn three, while duals can let me play an Armadillo Cloak, Elvish Archdruid and Glorious Anthem of Forest, Plains and a dual.
If your goal is to hit CC and DD on turn 3, you're playing a hyper-gold deck that runs maybe 4 basic lands and all duals if possible.
If you're playing UW control you, what, need 1UU and 2WW? Probably not even the 1UU in many cases. And help you get to 2WW fairly handily.
This is in addition to having WW or GG on turn two instead of wasting it on an activated ability.
Karoos weren't for ultra-agressive decks in limited. They were for 2 color and 3 color midrange decks. 5 color "I play the best cards people passed to me", however, loved the hell out of Karoos.
The point, though, is that these don't set you back much, since they tap for colorless, and provide long term card advantage. And no, you don't play them in elf aggro. You play them in control. They are control cards. And they are too good as is.
If you want your good commons, uncommons and rares to all be at the same power level, why bother with rarity?
1. I didn't say that.
2. Rarity is supposed to be for balanced limited as much as it is to sell packs. 3. You're not supposed to have functionally better cards at all, and putting functionally better cards at mythic is just a kick in the teeth.
Solid? I routinely took Karoos 3rd pick in Ravnica. These are better than karoos in almost every situation. If you've played fetchlands, you know the power of deck thinning. And thinning by 2 lands at a time? OMFG.
Imagine a 3 color deck with 12 of these and 12 lands they can target (what? They still tap for colorless!). You would never miss a land drop, and never have a land come into play tapped unless you wanted it.
There is no evidence that this is overpowered at common or uncommon, let alone declaring it too good for rare.
You are asserting a radical philosophy that rares can be "more powerful" than commons, which I think is a mistake. The fact of the matter is that these are deck thinning and card advantage in a manner that is astonishing. If you've ever played anything but aggro and burn you know the power of these 2 things. As is, this card gives you card advantage, deck thinning, mana fixing, AND doesn't slow you down (unless you use the 2nd ability) by coming into play tapped.
Seems fair. Play it turn 1, get no relevant mana, turn 2 a forest/plains, tap for mana, sac this, get a tapped/forest plains (which means you're still not casting anything on turn 2 because you now have 2 tapped lands). For the two turns your mana is tied up, you get mana fixed and an extra land.
It shouldn't be common, though. At common, you're drafting a ton of these, which may or may not be relevant to your deck, and chances are you'll end up with several of these that you can't play. That and complexity. They should be fine at uncommon.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"Sometimes, the situation is outracing a threat, sometimes it's ignoring it, and sometimes it involves sideboarding in 4x Hope//Pray." --Doug Linn
You're missing the point if you think this is a "T1" card. It's not. It's a turn 3 land.
Turn 1, you play a colored land you need for your removal or counter spell. Turn 2, you play another land or this and play a 1C 2 drop. Turn 3 you play another colored land and you sit there ready to play a counterspell. If you don't play the counterspell, you tutor up the right lands and on t4 you play a land and wrath, or whatever.
While this land does provide color fixing, you're missing the point if you're using it to get CC or CD on turn 2. Those are suboptimal draws.
Imagine this card: Land
Land
~ enters the battlefield with a charge counter on it. T: Add 1 colorless to your mana pool. 1, T, remove a charge counter from ~: Search your library for two land cards and exile them. Shuffle.
The biggest problem with this card is that all it does is deck thin. Some mono colored decks might run it, but generally speaking the bonus is not worth the drawback of it only providing colorless mana.
Selesnya Pathway solves that by replacing itself with one of your 2 colors, and putting the other into your hand! AND it deck thins!
If you're still not convinced, remember this card's effect is Kodama's reach. Dig through your cards and find a moderately playable, but not over powered, 2C common card. Now imagine the following land:
Land
Land
~ enters the battlefield with a charge counter on it. T: Add 1 colorless to your mana pool. 1, T, Sacrifice: Get the effect of the card you're looking at right now. Am I broken yet?
How about you suggest a fixed version rather than complain about the one that's there?
If these are spread out pretty evenly across the block (ie 4-3-3) they're probably fine at common. Still, I think they need to be
Guild Verge
Land (C) T: Add 1 to your mana pool. ,T, sacrifice ~: Search your library for a basic Type1 card and a basic Type2 card and reveal them. Put one of them onto the battlefield tapped and the other into your hand. Then shuffle your library.
They'll provide better fixing if you can activate them without either of the necessary colors, and be better for limited.
Card advantage. The fact it's usually "cards you want" advantage just makes it even better.
However, if forests tutored for an extra forest when you played them, we'd all be playing forests again!
Karoos don't deckthin and burn a turn. These apparently come into play untapped and provide colorless.
I've played Ravnica block enough to know that sometimes if you run 3-5 bouncelands, you get the 2 bounceland opening hand with no other lands. And if you got 2 of these cards in your opening hand, you'd keep.
Please do. I'd love to hear how many games bad luck screwed you out of because you missed a land drop on three and fell so far behind even free lands couldn't save you.
Or those times you hit a basic, have your three drop shut down by mediocre removal, and had to crack one of these on turn four instead of blocking.
I'm well aware that flexible card advantage is powerful. So is everyone else.
That's why everyone else at the table is also picking it up and playing as much card advantage as possible. If I crack a of this cycle and my opponent picks up a one, we are both playing with card advantage lands. We both can spend two mana to fix our colors. When a player uses that, knowing when to Mulligan slower hands that lean on these lands too heavily is a part of the game, too. Let alone the games you don't draw one.
If your goal is to hit CC and DD on turn 3, you're playing a hyper-gold deck that runs maybe 4 basic lands and all duals if possible.
If you're playing UW control you, what, need 1UU and 2WW? Probably not even the 1UU in many cases. And help you get to 2WW fairly handily.
Go back and watched the PTAVR finals. Hayne drops a match off color screw in the match of his life (in a constructed format) because his only nonbasics are evolving wilds. He doesn't play a hyper-gold deck... or even a gold card.
The reason cards have CC in their mana cost instead of just C is that they were to cheaply-costed and/or splashable at just one specific mana. You'll find a lot of those CC costed spells are quite good for their CMC. They are also not 'hyper-gold' cards. Hitting your land drops and casting spells are not automatic mechanics. Color screw beats you just as bad as mana screw will.
Karoos weren't for ultra-agressive decks in limited. They were for 2 color and 3 color midrange decks. 5 color "I play the best cards people passed to me", however, loved the hell out of Karoos.
The point, though, is that these don't set you back much, since they tap for colorless, and provide long term card advantage. And no, you don't play them in elf aggro. You play them in control. They are control cards. And they are too good as is.
if I'm in control, I have card draw and more mana sources. If I keep a hand with this plus two basics in control, the deck thinning hurts my chances of playing a land every turn of the game. This is opposite what a staunch control deck wants.
If you're in aggro, you want to be rewarded for playing CC two-drops that no one else could support and play multiple spells of the same color on early turns. If you play forest, then crack this, not only are you not playing a two drop, you're not hitting double white, which has a lot of history as a key casting cost in white aggro decks.
The time you want these are when the format is slow enough to allow you time to crack it without being punished too severly for missing the 5th land or missing a 2 or 3 drop creature. This mythical place exists in one place: limited. If this is where the mana fixing does it's best work and the place players can play it with the least downside, why would the design team stick it at rare so it's much harder to find? Not a great plan, that one.
Really not as insane as you seem to think it is. Fetchlands actually functioned as pseudo-spells in Zendikar draft and worked as cheap mana fixing in Onsluaght.
In constructed, the only time you fetch for basics is if Standard doesn't give you better duals or you want to play around wasteland.
Imagine a 3 color deck with 12 of these and 12 lands they can target (what? They still tap for colorless!). You would never miss a land drop, and never have a land come into play tapped unless you wanted it.
You also can never count on playing one drops, you wind up keeping multiple of these duals in a hand and probably don't play a relevant two drop, and your tempo gets destroyed... Go for it.
If you keep a basic + this you cut yourself to twenty lands in a 49-card deck on the play, and 48 on the draw. Mana screw becomes wayyyy more likely. And if you keep your fabled double-dual no basics hand, and have to hit a land on turn three, you have to have your three drop win the game for you, or you watch as you lose to decks that have actual potential to use their mana effectively in the early turns. The aggro decks run you off the board, the control deck is sitting pretty because you don't sneak anything past countermagic, and the combo player goes off on you while you sit back and grumble about having better card advantage.
As is, this card gives you card advantage, deck thinning, mana fixing, AND doesn't slow you down (unless you use the 2nd ability) by coming into play tapped.
It is amazing power. Too amazing.
If this is too amazing, Mulldrifter should be banned in all formats. You are allowed to push certain elements of design, to dictate what is more powerful than other aspects of a set. Look at the progression of creatures since time spiral block. Everything can't all be powerful at once, but some things can be more powerful than other card types or concepts. there's nothing broken about explore, and yet explore is better than these lands.
Hi. Krosan Verge is a better comparison for this card than the bounce lands of Ravnica. Verge's effect is stronger (ramps), costs 1 more mana, and it comes into play tapped. It also color fixes with colorless, which this card can't quite do. It also gets any forests/plains, while this gets only basics.
That's quite a bit better than this card, for the cost of coming in tapped and costing 2 instead of (G/W). If you nerf this card, it only needs to be a little. Coming in tapped would make the card easily balanced. Alternatively, costing 1(G/W) would also be a significant nerf. Despite Londondart's assertions, I'm not sure it's imbalanced at the moment. Sure, it gets you card advantage, but so does Krosan Verge, and so do Ravnica bouncelands.
And no, this isn't cultivate on a land so much as it is a non-morbid Caravan Vigil. It fixes your colors, yes, but it gets you only one more land in hand. Bouncelands did the same thing - fixed colors and ended up with another mana source in your hand.
To get to the heart of the matter, players don't play bouncelands excessively because they are slow and unreliable if you end up with a bad draw. This gets around that a little. If you get two of these in your opening hand, they're a little better (can't cast spells until you draw a color source, but at least you can make land drops). More importantly, you don't lose any tempo by playing these. Bouncelands guaranteed tempo loss. As a result, I would say these are stronger than the bouncelands, simply for the flexibility of if/when to pay the tempo loss (bouncelands cost you one mana immediately as a CIPT ability, these cost you 2 mana before you get any benefits, but anytime).
To balance them the best, they really should enter the battlefield tapped. I'd prefer to just take away their mana-producing ability, but there's no way Wizards would do that.
I like this card a good bit. It seems like it'll feel good to play, in the same "Whee" feeling you get when your experience your one bounceland tapping for two colors at once. I'm not worried about power level, because between the colorless tap ability and the hybrid requirement for the fetch, this cycle does a good job of keeping the mana fixing only reasonable.
I have to admit, though, I prefer the bouncelands, as the text boxes on these cards are kinda ugly. And yeah, probably not good at common because of the deckbuilding requirements.
This card is pretty cool. The MSE mockup looks pretty good. And like others have stated, the hybrid requirement keeps the mana-fixing to a reasonable level.
One thing you could do (if you want to nerf this thing) is remove the "tap for colorless mana" and just leave it as is with the activated Cultivate. But that might be taking it too far.
Guild Verge
Land (C) T: Add 1 to your mana pool. ,T, sacrifice ~: Search your library for a basic Type1 card and a basic Type2 card and reveal them. Put one of them onto the battlefield tapped and the other into your hand. Then shuffle your library.
I'd call this fair, and it has the added bonus of helping out 3+ color decks.
The important thing about this is that it fixes mana, but it's still strong card advantage... but doesn't get you the all important "turn 4 land drop, ***".
I'd love playing this card in control. And I'd love playing it in limited. It's still a strong 3rd pick at common in multicolor blocks, and a strong 5-6th pick normally for 2 color decks I think.
Please do. I'd love to hear how many games bad luck screwed you out of because you missed a land drop on three and fell so far behind even free lands couldn't save you.
There were a few times sideboarded in LD gave them the advantage. And at least once I kept the double karoo opening hand after a mulligan. But trust me, 3 colors and 3 mana in your opening hand is pretty solid.
I'm well aware that flexible card advantage is powerful. So is everyone else.
That's why everyone else at the table is also picking it up and playing as much card advantage as possible. If I crack a of this cycle and my opponent picks up a one, we are both playing with card advantage lands. We both can spend two mana to fix our colors. When a player uses that, knowing when to Mulligan slower hands that lean on these lands too heavily is a part of the game, too. Let alone the games you don't draw one.
WTF kind of draft format are you running where your opponents are all playing aggro draft decks with a perfect curve in ravnica? Even suggesting this in a fictional draft format is absurd.
These are hot stuff as costed, and fair at 2. As costed, I'll give suicide red another 3 points of life if it means I get to wrath on turn 4.
I think I agree with Londondart here... these seem a little too good. They are ofc really good in limited, which is fine because so is a lot of bad cards aswell.
However in contructed these grant you card advantage, and no bouce lands doesn't they dont do anything really (in constructed). These tap for colorless so they dont slow you down which is very important. The basics help you hit land drops and works as fodder for brainstorm in legacy.
I dont think they are vastly overpowered however lands that grant you card advantage are really really really good.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"Should have draw a card on it, still only playable in casual or limited. I mean it loses to liquify"
Said about Yawgmoth’s Will
WTF kind of draft format are you running where your opponents are all playing aggro draft decks with a perfect curve in ravnica? Even suggesting this in a fictional draft format is absurd.
we don't live in Ravnica block draft anymore, and asserting that these lands with guild themes mandate playing terrible two-drops and slow, durdle cards across his common/uncommon spread is absurd.
There's only 45 two drops at common or uncommon in RGD and about half are two colors! Of the two's that you can actually cast for one color, you have to dig past unplayables like courier hawk, gatherer of graces and utvara scalper to find stuff that would actually make a deck!
Since we know two drops have grown significantly since RGD, and we know the OP is willing to put 10 of these in a block, there's a strong hint of multicolored cards matter as a leading theme. When you pick up a 3 color deck and you want to play sweet two drops, this DOES slow you down. There's an actual decision between keeping hands with this, basic and a couple two drops because a two color deck can pick up tempo.
As previously stated, the design is well-done. The power level is above average for what fixing should do. In a multicolor set these would be fine at common. They're good, yes. But if you make players jump through all sorts of difficult hoops for serviceable fixing in a set that demands fixing, players don't want to play your format anymore. If the multicolored cards matter theme is not as strong as shards or ravnica or invasion blocks, bump these up to uncommon so people don't just fall into four color good stuff decks that shouldn't exist in the format. It's that simple.
These are hot stuff as costed, and fair at 2. As costed, I'll give suicide red another 3 points of life if it means I get to wrath on turn 4.
If you kept a good hand w/ a wrath variant and built a functional mana base you will wrath on turn four anyways. If you don't, its because of bad luck on the odd occasion, or because of bad keeps or incorrect mana a lot of the time.
Pretty sure there's no land that gives me a mulldrifter's effects. And pretty sure mulldrifter was a first pick in the format.
The point is that here is that a land that costs two to get a free land is too powerful a rare for you, so therefore an evasion creature that gets two free cards is absolutely unprintable by your own logic.
Mulldrifter commits you to blue, these commit you to two colors. Mulldrifter gets you a lot for five mana, these get you a little edge for two mana. If you can't see the abstract concept and spout on about comparing apples and oranges, just give up and find another thread.
The point is that here is that a land that costs two to get a free land is too powerful a rare for you, so therefore an evasion creature that gets two free cards is absolutely unprintable by your own logic.
That is absolutely not his own logic, and in fact it's a pretty poor comparison. No one is suggesting that all forms of card advantage are unprintable and overpowered. It's a question of efficiency. Mulldrifter doesn't get you up a card for only two mana and also have the versatility of being a colorless land.
Krosan Verge is indeed a much better comparison. As pointed out before, this doesn't ramp you and doesn't activate for colorless, but doesn't come into play tapped and costs one mana less to use. This means it is almost certainly better than Krosan Verge overall, although not by a huge margin. Possibly printable but definitely quite strong for any deck that wants to invest in a big lategame.
The deck thinning matters little, but the fact that you're up a card just by using a land is quite significant. In fact, these are strong enough that I could imagine mono-colored control decks might even run them with a couple of off-color basic lands just for the quantity of mana they provide. Much like Karoos, but without the tempo loss and vulnerability.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Quote from Horseshoe Hermit »
Karma doesn't exist. You can't depend on it. If you count on it for justice or catharsis, you will find that you have placed your emotions on very unstable ground; and you will either repeat your disappointment in society over and over, or you will engage in a persistent delusion to protect yourself from that feeling.
As-is, this card would almost certainly need to be a rare just because of it's extreme versatility. Is it broken? For sure it is, in certain formats. However, you've not stated what format to judge this by, or if it's going to be a staple in your own standalone format, so I can't really judge too much on balance.
I would say that this would be much less risky if you made it come in tapped, removed the T: 1, or both. Even if it was simply "G/, T: Kodama's Reach" it would still be playable.
These are actually perfect for the block I'm designing, but that block isn't all that nice to common mana-fixing, and I have some common single colour lands with basic land types. I think I'd include them as follows:
Coastal Farmland
Land C
:symtap:: Add to your mana pool.
:symw::symu:, :symtap:, Sacrifice Coastal Farmland: Search your library for a plains card and an island card. Reveal those cards and put one onto the battlefield tapped and the other into your hand. Then shuffle your library.
These are actually perfect for the block I'm designing, but that block isn't all that nice to common mana-fixing, and I have some common single colour lands with basic land types. I think I'd include them as follows:
Coastal Farmland
Land C
:symtap:: Add to your mana pool.
:symw::symu:, :symtap:, Sacrifice Coastal Farmland: Search your library for a plains card and an island card. Reveal those cards and put one onto the battlefield tapped and the other into your hand. Then shuffle your library.
Making it colored mana really makes it underpowered. Make it 2 and call it "good common"...
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
Land (C)
T: Add 1 to your mana pool.
(G/W),T, Sacrifice Selesnya Pathway: Search your library for a basic Forest card and a basic Plains card, reveal those cards, and put one onto the battlefield tapped and the other into your hand. Then shuffle your library.
This would be part of a ten card [e:BLOCK] cycle at common. Does it look fair?
Overall a big fan of this mechanic, I like more mana fixing at common without cutting into green's spells or forcing random signets into a set.
Lyzolda, the Blood Witch | Maga, Traitor to Mortals | Mayael the Anima | Rafiq of the Many | Rhys the Redeemed
Sasaya, Oorochi Ascendant | Sygg, River Cutthroat | Thada Adel, Acquisitor | Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre
You've got to remember this is an uncounterable kodama's reach for 1 mana and a land drop. It is mana fixing gold.
MAYBE switch the mana cost with a "discard" cost... but even that would make this very efficient at smoothing out bad draws. So efficient, in fact, I could hardly imagine a 2 color deck that didn't run 4x of these. But as is, I could see 3 or 4 color decks arises using these as a means to fix mana and get card advantage easily.
Edit: Also that's an aweful lot of text.
Maybe if you changed the activation to colorless, and put both into your hand... it's be card advantage at the cost of land drops. Nowhere near as good, but it'd have a place.
Kodama's Reach ramps you. This doesn't. This functions differently but gives you exactly the same amount and color of mana that a Karoo from Ravnica would. If Karoo + basic is a decent start in Ravnica limited and did not make much splash in the standard environment, how are these overpowered?
Commons aren't required to be mediocre, and in a mana-hungry set these would help a lot to play more creative limited environments with three or four colors.
The hybrid mana may fit with set themes or color pairings, the OP would have to shed some light on that. And there's not a whole lot more text here than Terramorphic Expanse / Evolving Wilds, which have seen multiple recent printings at common.
Here's a hint: If your forest said "next turn, you may pay 2 mana. If you do, draw a card", we'd all be playing forests.
Again, my position is it's too powerful at rare, not that it's not right as a common.
Here's a hint: drawing a card and searching for a basic land are not the same thing. That Plains is always a Plains, but a draw could be anything. It could even be a boat! You know how much we've always wanted one of those.
You could do well to be less of a jerk whether or not your opinions differ from someone else.
Also, important question: Karoos give you a free land and take up your turn two mana production to do it. Why doesn't the rest of the world get that? I mean, its a free card! Why doesn't everyone in every eternal format build decks with a bunch of Karoos?
If you gave me 4 of these or 4 ravnica shocks, or 4 scars duals... or 4 M10 duals... or 4 filter lands.... or 4 Pain lands... I would always want to play duals over this. This cycle + basic lands can never hit GG and WW on turn three, while duals can let me play an Armadillo Cloak, Elvish Archdruid and Glorious Anthem of Forest, Plains and a dual. This is in addition to having WW or GG on turn two instead of wasting it on an activated ability.
The cycle BoomerAang Squad designed is solid fixing but clunky for anything past Standard. The power level is exactly where it should be.
If you want your good commons, uncommons and rares to all be at the same power level, why bother with rarity?
This is a solid common in a multiolored set. If the set doesn't hit on the theme too heavy, it probably gets moved to uncommon to make sure the limited environment works around it without their presence pushing three color decks. In no way is this a rare quality card. Krosan Verge is the closest example, and in a draft format where power creep was significantly lower and dual lands had not come as far as they have in present times, Krosan Verge was an uncommon.
There is no evidence that this is overpowered at common or uncommon, let alone declaring it too good for rare.
While there is a space for cycles of mana fixing, I like the design space of colorless unspecified mana fixing. In my explorations of the design space of colorless fetch lands, spurred on by the functional reprints of Terramorphic Expanse and Evolving Wilds, I have come up with two Cultivate land variations that I think work really well.
Land (C)
,T, Sacrifice CARDNAME: Search your library for up to two basic land cards and reveal them. Put one onto the field tapped and the other into your hand. (Then shuffle your library.)
Land (C)
T, Sacrifice CARDNAME, Discard a card: Search your library for up to two basic land cards and reveal them. Put one onto the field tapped and the other into your hand. (Then shuffle your library.)
With just slightly different cost they fill really different roles and they would not be in the same set. Winding Trail provides card advantage, but can't be used until turn three (like Cultivate). Crossroads fixes your mana well in the early game, but is not as good late when you have less cards to choose from to discard. Neither one accelerates your mana; they just put an extra land card into your hand.
Card advantage. The fact it's usually "cards you want" advantage just makes it even better.
However, if forests tutored for an extra forest when you played them, we'd all be playing forests again!
Karoos don't deckthin and burn a turn. These apparently come into play untapped and provide colorless.
I've played Ravnica block enough to know that sometimes if you run 3-5 bouncelands, you get the 2 bounceland opening hand with no other lands. And if you got 2 of these cards in your opening hand, you'd keep.
You'd play both and you'd like it. In a control deck, though, you'd like these much more.
If your goal is to hit CC and DD on turn 3, you're playing a hyper-gold deck that runs maybe 4 basic lands and all duals if possible.
If you're playing UW control you, what, need 1UU and 2WW? Probably not even the 1UU in many cases. And help you get to 2WW fairly handily.
Karoos weren't for ultra-agressive decks in limited. They were for 2 color and 3 color midrange decks. 5 color "I play the best cards people passed to me", however, loved the hell out of Karoos.
The point, though, is that these don't set you back much, since they tap for colorless, and provide long term card advantage. And no, you don't play them in elf aggro. You play them in control. They are control cards. And they are too good as is.
1. I didn't say that.
2. Rarity is supposed to be for balanced limited as much as it is to sell packs. 3. You're not supposed to have functionally better cards at all, and putting functionally better cards at mythic is just a kick in the teeth.
Solid? I routinely took Karoos 3rd pick in Ravnica. These are better than karoos in almost every situation. If you've played fetchlands, you know the power of deck thinning. And thinning by 2 lands at a time? OMFG.
Imagine a 3 color deck with 12 of these and 12 lands they can target (what? They still tap for colorless!). You would never miss a land drop, and never have a land come into play tapped unless you wanted it.
You are asserting a radical philosophy that rares can be "more powerful" than commons, which I think is a mistake. The fact of the matter is that these are deck thinning and card advantage in a manner that is astonishing. If you've ever played anything but aggro and burn you know the power of these 2 things. As is, this card gives you card advantage, deck thinning, mana fixing, AND doesn't slow you down (unless you use the 2nd ability) by coming into play tapped.
It is amazing power. Too amazing.
It shouldn't be common, though. At common, you're drafting a ton of these, which may or may not be relevant to your deck, and chances are you'll end up with several of these that you can't play. That and complexity. They should be fine at uncommon.
"Sometimes, the situation is outracing a threat, sometimes it's ignoring it, and sometimes it involves sideboarding in 4x Hope//Pray." --Doug Linn
Turn 1, you play a colored land you need for your removal or counter spell. Turn 2, you play another land or this and play a 1C 2 drop. Turn 3 you play another colored land and you sit there ready to play a counterspell. If you don't play the counterspell, you tutor up the right lands and on t4 you play a land and wrath, or whatever.
While this land does provide color fixing, you're missing the point if you're using it to get CC or CD on turn 2. Those are suboptimal draws.
Imagine this card:
Land
Land
~ enters the battlefield with a charge counter on it.
T: Add 1 colorless to your mana pool.
1, T, remove a charge counter from ~: Search your library for two land cards and exile them. Shuffle.
The biggest problem with this card is that all it does is deck thin. Some mono colored decks might run it, but generally speaking the bonus is not worth the drawback of it only providing colorless mana.
Selesnya Pathway solves that by replacing itself with one of your 2 colors, and putting the other into your hand! AND it deck thins!
If you're still not convinced, remember this card's effect is Kodama's reach. Dig through your cards and find a moderately playable, but not over powered, 2C common card. Now imagine the following land:
Land
Land
~ enters the battlefield with a charge counter on it.
T: Add 1 colorless to your mana pool.
1, T, Sacrifice: Get the effect of the card you're looking at right now. Am I broken yet?
If these are spread out pretty evenly across the block (ie 4-3-3) they're probably fine at common. Still, I think they need to be
Guild Verge
Land (C)
T: Add 1 to your mana pool.
,T, sacrifice ~: Search your library for a basic Type1 card and a basic Type2 card and reveal them. Put one of them onto the battlefield tapped and the other into your hand. Then shuffle your library.
They'll provide better fixing if you can activate them without either of the necessary colors, and be better for limited.
Terminal Moraine isn't exactly looking so hot nowadays, with two superior siblings
Lyzolda, the Blood Witch | Maga, Traitor to Mortals | Mayael the Anima | Rafiq of the Many | Rhys the Redeemed
Sasaya, Oorochi Ascendant | Sygg, River Cutthroat | Thada Adel, Acquisitor | Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre
Please do. I'd love to hear how many games bad luck screwed you out of because you missed a land drop on three and fell so far behind even free lands couldn't save you.
Or those times you hit a basic, have your three drop shut down by mediocre removal, and had to crack one of these on turn four instead of blocking.
I'm well aware that flexible card advantage is powerful. So is everyone else.
That's why everyone else at the table is also picking it up and playing as much card advantage as possible. If I crack a of this cycle and my opponent picks up a one, we are both playing with card advantage lands. We both can spend two mana to fix our colors. When a player uses that, knowing when to Mulligan slower hands that lean on these lands too heavily is a part of the game, too. Let alone the games you don't draw one.
Your'e referring to an 'or' statement, not an 'and' one. You don't get to play both; that's the general premises of the discussion.
Go back and watched the PTAVR finals. Hayne drops a match off color screw in the match of his life (in a constructed format) because his only nonbasics are evolving wilds. He doesn't play a hyper-gold deck... or even a gold card.
The reason cards have CC in their mana cost instead of just C is that they were to cheaply-costed and/or splashable at just one specific mana. You'll find a lot of those CC costed spells are quite good for their CMC. They are also not 'hyper-gold' cards. Hitting your land drops and casting spells are not automatic mechanics. Color screw beats you just as bad as mana screw will.
if I'm in control, I have card draw and more mana sources. If I keep a hand with this plus two basics in control, the deck thinning hurts my chances of playing a land every turn of the game. This is opposite what a staunch control deck wants.
If you're in aggro, you want to be rewarded for playing CC two-drops that no one else could support and play multiple spells of the same color on early turns. If you play forest, then crack this, not only are you not playing a two drop, you're not hitting double white, which has a lot of history as a key casting cost in white aggro decks.
The time you want these are when the format is slow enough to allow you time to crack it without being punished too severly for missing the 5th land or missing a 2 or 3 drop creature. This mythical place exists in one place: limited. If this is where the mana fixing does it's best work and the place players can play it with the least downside, why would the design team stick it at rare so it's much harder to find? Not a great plan, that one.
Hmm, maybe you're right...
Wait, nevermind....
You totally did....
Really not as insane as you seem to think it is. Fetchlands actually functioned as pseudo-spells in Zendikar draft and worked as cheap mana fixing in Onsluaght.
In constructed, the only time you fetch for basics is if Standard doesn't give you better duals or you want to play around wasteland.
You also can never count on playing one drops, you wind up keeping multiple of these duals in a hand and probably don't play a relevant two drop, and your tempo gets destroyed... Go for it.
If you keep a basic + this you cut yourself to twenty lands in a 49-card deck on the play, and 48 on the draw. Mana screw becomes wayyyy more likely. And if you keep your fabled double-dual no basics hand, and have to hit a land on turn three, you have to have your three drop win the game for you, or you watch as you lose to decks that have actual potential to use their mana effectively in the early turns. The aggro decks run you off the board, the control deck is sitting pretty because you don't sneak anything past countermagic, and the combo player goes off on you while you sit back and grumble about having better card advantage.
If this is too amazing, Mulldrifter should be banned in all formats. You are allowed to push certain elements of design, to dictate what is more powerful than other aspects of a set. Look at the progression of creatures since time spiral block. Everything can't all be powerful at once, but some things can be more powerful than other card types or concepts. there's nothing broken about explore, and yet explore is better than these lands.
That's quite a bit better than this card, for the cost of coming in tapped and costing 2 instead of (G/W). If you nerf this card, it only needs to be a little. Coming in tapped would make the card easily balanced. Alternatively, costing 1(G/W) would also be a significant nerf. Despite Londondart's assertions, I'm not sure it's imbalanced at the moment. Sure, it gets you card advantage, but so does Krosan Verge, and so do Ravnica bouncelands.
And no, this isn't cultivate on a land so much as it is a non-morbid Caravan Vigil. It fixes your colors, yes, but it gets you only one more land in hand. Bouncelands did the same thing - fixed colors and ended up with another mana source in your hand.
To get to the heart of the matter, players don't play bouncelands excessively because they are slow and unreliable if you end up with a bad draw. This gets around that a little. If you get two of these in your opening hand, they're a little better (can't cast spells until you draw a color source, but at least you can make land drops). More importantly, you don't lose any tempo by playing these. Bouncelands guaranteed tempo loss. As a result, I would say these are stronger than the bouncelands, simply for the flexibility of if/when to pay the tempo loss (bouncelands cost you one mana immediately as a CIPT ability, these cost you 2 mana before you get any benefits, but anytime).
To balance them the best, they really should enter the battlefield tapped. I'd prefer to just take away their mana-producing ability, but there's no way Wizards would do that.
Karador EDH
Comments on decks welcome: http://tappedout.net/users/AradonTemplar/
Currently developing Set 1 of 3, 'Shadow': http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=436885
I have to admit, though, I prefer the bouncelands, as the text boxes on these cards are kinda ugly. And yeah, probably not good at common because of the deckbuilding requirements.
I am a student game developer; Check out my stuff
One thing you could do (if you want to nerf this thing) is remove the "tap for colorless mana" and just leave it as is with the activated Cultivate. But that might be taking it too far.
GWU Rafiq
RWB Zurgo
WBG Ghave
WUB Oloro
WBR Kaalia (Archived)
My Blog, currently working on series about my custom set Cazia.
Steam Trades - I play Dota 2, CS:GO, TF2, and trade cards heavily. Add me if you like.
I'd call this fair, and it has the added bonus of helping out 3+ color decks.
The important thing about this is that it fixes mana, but it's still strong card advantage... but doesn't get you the all important "turn 4 land drop, ***".
I'd love playing this card in control. And I'd love playing it in limited. It's still a strong 3rd pick at common in multicolor blocks, and a strong 5-6th pick normally for 2 color decks I think.
There were a few times sideboarded in LD gave them the advantage. And at least once I kept the double karoo opening hand after a mulligan. But trust me, 3 colors and 3 mana in your opening hand is pretty solid.
Wait... you run 4 mana blockers?
In all seriousness, removal.dec was removal.dec You don't need blockers when they have no creatures.
WTF kind of draft format are you running where your opponents are all playing aggro draft decks with a perfect curve in ravnica? Even suggesting this in a fictional draft format is absurd.
These are hot stuff as costed, and fair at 2. As costed, I'll give suicide red another 3 points of life if it means I get to wrath on turn 4.
Pretty sure there's no land that gives me a mulldrifter's effects. And pretty sure mulldrifter was a first pick in the format.
However in contructed these grant you card advantage, and no bouce lands doesn't they dont do anything really (in constructed). These tap for colorless so they dont slow you down which is very important. The basics help you hit land drops and works as fodder for brainstorm in legacy.
I dont think they are vastly overpowered however lands that grant you card advantage are really really really good.
Said about Yawgmoth’s Will
Credits to Miraculous Recovery Signatures for the truly miraculous sig.
GURRUG Delver
RGoblins
RUGPunishing Balance
Modern:
UR Izzet Tron
we don't live in Ravnica block draft anymore, and asserting that these lands with guild themes mandate playing terrible two-drops and slow, durdle cards across his common/uncommon spread is absurd.
There's only 45 two drops at common or uncommon in RGD and about half are two colors! Of the two's that you can actually cast for one color, you have to dig past unplayables like courier hawk, gatherer of graces and utvara scalper to find stuff that would actually make a deck!
Since we know two drops have grown significantly since RGD, and we know the OP is willing to put 10 of these in a block, there's a strong hint of multicolored cards matter as a leading theme. When you pick up a 3 color deck and you want to play sweet two drops, this DOES slow you down. There's an actual decision between keeping hands with this, basic and a couple two drops because a two color deck can pick up tempo.
As previously stated, the design is well-done. The power level is above average for what fixing should do. In a multicolor set these would be fine at common. They're good, yes. But if you make players jump through all sorts of difficult hoops for serviceable fixing in a set that demands fixing, players don't want to play your format anymore. If the multicolored cards matter theme is not as strong as shards or ravnica or invasion blocks, bump these up to uncommon so people don't just fall into four color good stuff decks that shouldn't exist in the format. It's that simple.
If you kept a good hand w/ a wrath variant and built a functional mana base you will wrath on turn four anyways. If you don't, its because of bad luck on the odd occasion, or because of bad keeps or incorrect mana a lot of the time.
The point is that here is that a land that costs two to get a free land is too powerful a rare for you, so therefore an evasion creature that gets two free cards is absolutely unprintable by your own logic.
Mulldrifter commits you to blue, these commit you to two colors. Mulldrifter gets you a lot for five mana, these get you a little edge for two mana. If you can't see the abstract concept and spout on about comparing apples and oranges, just give up and find another thread.
That is absolutely not his own logic, and in fact it's a pretty poor comparison. No one is suggesting that all forms of card advantage are unprintable and overpowered. It's a question of efficiency. Mulldrifter doesn't get you up a card for only two mana and also have the versatility of being a colorless land.
Krosan Verge is indeed a much better comparison. As pointed out before, this doesn't ramp you and doesn't activate for colorless, but doesn't come into play tapped and costs one mana less to use. This means it is almost certainly better than Krosan Verge overall, although not by a huge margin. Possibly printable but definitely quite strong for any deck that wants to invest in a big lategame.
The deck thinning matters little, but the fact that you're up a card just by using a land is quite significant. In fact, these are strong enough that I could imagine mono-colored control decks might even run them with a couple of off-color basic lands just for the quantity of mana they provide. Much like Karoos, but without the tempo loss and vulnerability.
About Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx:
I would say that this would be much less risky if you made it come in tapped, removed the T: 1, or both. Even if it was simply "G/, T: Kodama's Reach" it would still be playable.
My custom sets:
Caeia Block (Released - Beta)
Generals of Dareth (In Design)
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=504072
Coastal Farmland
Land C
:symtap:: Add to your mana pool.
:symw::symu:, :symtap:, Sacrifice Coastal Farmland: Search your library for a plains card and an island card. Reveal those cards and put one onto the battlefield tapped and the other into your hand. Then shuffle your library.
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=504072
Making it colored mana really makes it underpowered. Make it 2 and call it "good common"...