I'm trying to design some new mechanics for my GDS2 set, Utopia, that support the "Weaponized Paradise" theme without leaning so heavily on enchantments-matter. I thought I would share a thought process and then ask what people thought of the results.
I started out with the idea of representing creatures who become much more skilled/powerful after experiencing real combat.
The first idea was a riff on level up, using the same textbox and concept, but gaining counters for attacking and blocking rather than paying mana. Something like this:
City Watch - 1W
Creature - Human Soldier (C)
Experience (Whenever this creature attacks or blocks, put a level counter on it at end of combat.) 1/3
{2-3} 3/5
{4+} 5/7
A boring common, but basically shows off how the mechanics works. I liked it because it used existing rules in a clever way and did a pretty good job of showing off the "learn by doing" theme.
The problems were twofold: First, level counters really limit the ways in which you can use other types of counters in the set. I have some ideas that involve +1/+1 counters and the like, and you really don't want to put those in the same set as level-up creatures. The other problem was that I already have flip cards in the set, and I don't want to use too much textbox complexity or similar-looking mechanics in the same set.
With this in mind, I decided to see if flip cards themselves could suit my needs. I considered something like this:
Sky Guy - 1UU
Creature - Human Wizard (U)
Flying.
When Sky Spy attacks or blocks, flip it at end of combat. 1/3
// Sky Spy
Creature - Human Wizard
Flying
When Sky Spy deals combat damage to a player, draw a card. 2/4
While I like getting the most out of my mechanics, I was a little leary of putting Flip on creatures. I had intended to bring it back as a noncreature mechanic to distinguish from its use in Kamagawa.
I also wasn't crazy about the fact that I had to either flip the creature after one combat or use counters in a manner even more awkward than Level Up. I'm not a big fan of the Hired Muscle cycle, and wasn't interested in rehashing the idea.
The current iteration is a lot cleaner, but comes in two parts. Here's the keyword mechanic:
Citizen Solder - W
Creature - Human Soldier (C)
Experience (Whenever this creature attacks or blocks, put a +1/+1 counter on it at end of combat.) 1/1
And here's how I'm imagining the "level up" part of it:
Fly Knight - WW
Creature - Human Knight (U)
Experience (Whenever this creature attacks or blocks, put a +1/+1 counter on it at end of combat.)
Fly Knight has flying as long as it has two or more +1/+1 counters on it. 2/2
I'm thinking I would probably do a few french vanilla/double-dip at common/uncommon, a cycle of "gets better with two counters" at uncommon, and a few more compex designs at rare.
The idea certainly isn't fully-developed. I've been kicking a dozen different versions around since yesterday. But I'm curious what other people think about previous versions and the current concept.
I've seen versions of this many times before. The +1/+1 counter version has the most interesting tension with activated abilities that include counter removal as a cost. It might be wise to put an upper limit on the ability:
Experience X (Whenever this attacks or blocks, put a +1/+1 counter on it at end of combat if it has less than X +1/+1 counters on it.)
See, I get why people wanted Level Up to involve combat somehow, since that's "how you're supposed to gain experience" and such, but doing so entirely limits the mechanic to combat-oriented creatures. Enclave Cryptologist, Joraga Treespeaker, and Kazandu Tuskcaller are examples of Leveler design that don't work if they're forced to get into combat to improve. Since paying mana is such a ubiquitous cost in Magic: The Gathering, it still works for the non-mage levelers even if it doesn't exactly fit the RPG trope on a one-for-one basis. It still communicates the basic premise of an individual improving their abilities over time, and doesn't forcibly exclude utility creatures from using the mechanic.
I've seen versions of this many times before. The +1/+1 counter version has the most interesting tension with activated abilities that include counter removal as a cost. It might be wise to put an upper limit on the ability:
Experience X (Whenever this attacks or blocks, put a +1/+1 counter on it at end of combat if it has less than X +1/+1 counters on it.)
This is what I was going to suggest, although it definitely feels a little rough around the edges and jumbled. But if you don't put an upper bound on it, I think it really limits the kind of creatures you can put it on, as an evasion creature can just run away with the game (in limited, at least).
You could just base it on a single +1/+1 counter. It would be more intuitive to play but you lose some design space.
You may want to consider not keywording it so you leave space for other triggers to put counters on things. I feel like getting counters from attacking and blocking doesn't really mesh well with the flavor of a Utopia - I'd think creatures would more likely get experience from doing other things.
Regardless, I like some variation of the +1/+1 counter method over either of the other options.
You already have flip cards in your set. Including level up or experience will probably be too much and going back doesn't seem like an option in context of the contest. You've made it this far, don't start second guessing your skills. The flip mechanic was a wise choice as it proffers plenty of design space, use it. If you are required to design your own mechanic, more of the same probably isn't the right route.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I care less about us making mistakes that lead to degenerate environments than I am when we don’t push ourselves and make something that’s boring to play. - MaRo
I know I gave feedback earlier, but you understand as well I do, perspective is fickle and the more I thought about it the more I've come to appreciate different aspects.
Your +1/+1 iteration is sort of silly; you want to avoid textbox complexity of Level Up, so you bring about a mechanic that is functionally similar and just as confusing. If you are going to do +1/+1 counters, don't grant abilities on them.
Experience (when ~ attacks or blocks, you may put a Level counter on a creature you control).
I like the idea that you can level who you want faster, instead of having to attack with a weenie and hope they don't die.
I do, however agree with the idea that textbox complexity is high if you include level up at all.
Quite the conundrum. How open are you to ditching experience and thinking of a different mechanized paradise mechanic?
Hi Devon,
First off, I love your set concept. The invader scenario seemed a bit forced to me, so I'm happy you're considering alternatives.
I think the idea of experiencing "real combat for the first time" is a great way to build off MaRo's feedback. There is some elegant solution, but finding it is a challenge. I like your current incarnation for combat creatures, but as others have pointed out, it is awkward for utility creatures. One way to incorporate them would be to reword experience to: (the first time ~ attacks, blocks, or activates an ability each turn, put a +1/+1 counter on it.).
I can understand why you wanted it to happen at the end of combat, but doing it right away is good for simplicity and for instant-gratification; cards can be underpowered/undertoughnessed with the mechanic in mind (think oran-rief survivalist). Unfortunately this makes abilitiies involving +1/+1 counters much more difficult to design. Still, I like the progress and hope to hear what you have in mind for the other colors' flameweaving analogues.
- Jake Mosby
I started out with the idea of representing creatures who become much more skilled/powerful after experiencing real combat.
The first idea was a riff on level up, using the same textbox and concept, but gaining counters for attacking and blocking rather than paying mana. Something like this:
City Watch - 1W
Creature - Human Soldier (C)
Experience (Whenever this creature attacks or blocks, put a level counter on it at end of combat.) 1/3
{2-3} 3/5
{4+} 5/7
A boring common, but basically shows off how the mechanics works. I liked it because it used existing rules in a clever way and did a pretty good job of showing off the "learn by doing" theme.
The problems were twofold: First, level counters really limit the ways in which you can use other types of counters in the set. I have some ideas that involve +1/+1 counters and the like, and you really don't want to put those in the same set as level-up creatures. The other problem was that I already have flip cards in the set, and I don't want to use too much textbox complexity or similar-looking mechanics in the same set.
With this in mind, I decided to see if flip cards themselves could suit my needs. I considered something like this:
Sky Guy - 1UU
Creature - Human Wizard (U)
Flying.
When Sky Spy attacks or blocks, flip it at end of combat.
1/3
//
Sky Spy
Creature - Human Wizard
Flying
When Sky Spy deals combat damage to a player, draw a card.
2/4
While I like getting the most out of my mechanics, I was a little leary of putting Flip on creatures. I had intended to bring it back as a noncreature mechanic to distinguish from its use in Kamagawa.
I also wasn't crazy about the fact that I had to either flip the creature after one combat or use counters in a manner even more awkward than Level Up. I'm not a big fan of the Hired Muscle cycle, and wasn't interested in rehashing the idea.
The current iteration is a lot cleaner, but comes in two parts. Here's the keyword mechanic:
Citizen Solder - W
Creature - Human Soldier (C)
Experience (Whenever this creature attacks or blocks, put a +1/+1 counter on it at end of combat.)
1/1
And here's how I'm imagining the "level up" part of it:
Fly Knight - WW
Creature - Human Knight (U)
Experience (Whenever this creature attacks or blocks, put a +1/+1 counter on it at end of combat.)
Fly Knight has flying as long as it has two or more +1/+1 counters on it.
2/2
I'm thinking I would probably do a few french vanilla/double-dip at common/uncommon, a cycle of "gets better with two counters" at uncommon, and a few more compex designs at rare.
The idea certainly isn't fully-developed. I've been kicking a dozen different versions around since yesterday. But I'm curious what other people think about previous versions and the current concept.
Experience X (Whenever this attacks or blocks, put a +1/+1 counter on it at end of combat if it has less than X +1/+1 counters on it.)
I̟̥͍̠ͅn̩͉̣͍̬͚ͅ ̬̬͖t̯̹̞̺͖͓̯̤h̘͍̬e͙̯͈̖̼̮ ̭̬f̺̲̲̪i͙͉̟̩̰r̪̝͚͈̝̥͍̝̲s̼̻͇̘̳͔ͅt̲̺̳̗̜̪̙ ̳̺̥̻͚̗ͅm̜̜̟̰͈͓͎͇o̝̖̮̝͇m̯̻̞̼̫̗͓̤e̩̯̬̮̩n͎̱̪̲̹͖t͇̖s̰̮ͅ,̤̲͙̻̭̻̯̹̰ ̖t̫̙̺̯͖͚̯ͅh͙̯̦̳̗̰̟e͖̪͉̼̯ ̪͕g̞̣͔a̗̦t̬̬͓͙̫̖̭̻e̩̻̯ ̜̖̦̖̤̭͙̬t̞̹̥̪͎͉ͅo͕͚͍͇̲͇͓̺ ̭̬͙͈̣̻t͈͍͙͓̫̖͙̩h̪̬̖̙e̗͈ ̗̬̟̞̺̤͉̯ͅa̦̯͚̙̜̮f͉͙̲̣̞̼t̪̤̞̣͚e̲͉̳̥r͇̪̙͚͓l̥̞̞͎̹̯̹ͅi͓̬f̮̥̬̞͈ͅe͎ ̟̩̤̳̠̯̩̯o̮̘̲p̟͚̣̞͉͓e͍̩̣n͔̼͕͚̜e̬̱d̼̘͎̖̹͍̮̠,͖̺̭̱̮ ̣̲͖̬̪̭̥a̪͚n̟̲̝̤̤̞̗d̘̱̗͇̮͕̳͕͔ ͖̞͉͎t̹̙͎h̰̱͉̗e̪̞̱̝̹̩ͅ ̠̱̩̭̦p̯̙e͓o̳͚̰̯̺̱̰͔̘p̬͎̱̣̼̩͇l̗̟̖͚̠e̱͉͔̱̦̬̟̙ ̖͚̪͔̼̦w̺̖̤̱e͖̗̻̦͓̖̘̜r̭̥e͔̹̫̱͕̦̰͕ ̗͔̠p̠̗͍͍̱̳̠r̰͔͎̰o͉̥͓̰͚̥s̟͚̹̱͔̣t͉̙̳̖͖̪̮r̥̘̥͙̹a͉̟̫̟̳̠̟̭t͈̜̰͈͎e̞̣̭̲̬ ͚̗̯̟͙i͍͖̰̘̦͖͉ṇ̮̻̯̦̲̩͍ ̦̮͚̫̤t͉͖̫͕ͅͅh͙̮̻̘̣̮̼e͕̺ ͙l͕̠͎̰̥i̲͓͉̲g̫̳̟͈͇̖h̠̦̖t͓̯͎̗ ̳̪̘̟̙̩̦o̫̲f̙͔̰̙̠ ̹̪̗͇̯t͖̼̼͉͖̬h̹͇̩e͚̖̺̤͉̹͕̪ ͚͓̭̝̺G͎̗̯̩o̫̯̮̟̮̳̘d̜̲͙̠-̩̳̯̲̗̜P̹̘̥͉̝h͍͈̗̖̝ͅa͍̗̮̼̗r̜̖͇̙̺a̭̺͔̞̳͈o̪̣͓̯̬͙̯̰̗h̖̦͈̥̯͔.͇̣̙̝
R Citizen Cane (Feldon of the Third Path)
This is what I was going to suggest, although it definitely feels a little rough around the edges and jumbled. But if you don't put an upper bound on it, I think it really limits the kind of creatures you can put it on, as an evasion creature can just run away with the game (in limited, at least).
You could just base it on a single +1/+1 counter. It would be more intuitive to play but you lose some design space.
You may want to consider not keywording it so you leave space for other triggers to put counters on things. I feel like getting counters from attacking and blocking doesn't really mesh well with the flavor of a Utopia - I'd think creatures would more likely get experience from doing other things.
Regardless, I like some variation of the +1/+1 counter method over either of the other options.
I know I gave feedback earlier, but you understand as well I do, perspective is fickle and the more I thought about it the more I've come to appreciate different aspects.
Your +1/+1 iteration is sort of silly; you want to avoid textbox complexity of Level Up, so you bring about a mechanic that is functionally similar and just as confusing. If you are going to do +1/+1 counters, don't grant abilities on them.
Experience (when ~ attacks or blocks, you may put a Level counter on a creature you control).
I like the idea that you can level who you want faster, instead of having to attack with a weenie and hope they don't die.
I do, however agree with the idea that textbox complexity is high if you include level up at all.
Quite the conundrum. How open are you to ditching experience and thinking of a different mechanized paradise mechanic?
Practice for Khans of Tarkir Limited:
Draft: (#1) (#2) (#3) (#4) (#5)
First off, I love your set concept. The invader scenario seemed a bit forced to me, so I'm happy you're considering alternatives.
I think the idea of experiencing "real combat for the first time" is a great way to build off MaRo's feedback. There is some elegant solution, but finding it is a challenge. I like your current incarnation for combat creatures, but as others have pointed out, it is awkward for utility creatures. One way to incorporate them would be to reword experience to:
(the first time ~ attacks, blocks, or activates an ability each turn, put a +1/+1 counter on it.).
I can understand why you wanted it to happen at the end of combat, but doing it right away is good for simplicity and for instant-gratification; cards can be underpowered/undertoughnessed with the mechanic in mind (think oran-rief survivalist). Unfortunately this makes abilitiies involving +1/+1 counters much more difficult to design. Still, I like the progress and hope to hear what you have in mind for the other colors' flameweaving analogues.
- Jake Mosby