What part of white's philosophy/flavor lends to being so connected to Enchantments? I can think of only two reasons: 1) White likes global enchantments that either set rules, or protect/enchance its creatures; and 2) White likes Auras that protect and enhance individual creatures. These reasons do make an amount of sense, but I just don't think that these alone are good enough reasons for White to be the best color at dealing with enchantments. Best at destroying them, sure, but maybe second best at using them (I'll get to which color I think should be best in a moment).
Enchantments are persistent spells that modify play in some way. They are either global enchantments, that usually have an effect on the entire battlefield or modify some aspect of the game, or local enchantments that modify the object they enchant. Enchantments are, at their most basic, about changing and modifying something.
The color that is most interested in change, modification, and manipulation of the world around it? Blue, of course.
Blue should be the Enchantment color. Blue loves enchantments because they are a way to change something into something else; they give a creature new abilities, they change the rules of the game. Blue loves enchantments because they are a way to project their will onto the physical world.
Here's how I feel the breakdown should be for enchantment interaction:
Enchantment Love
1) Blue (Global and Auras of all types; used to modify and take control of your and your opponent's resources)
2) White (Rules-setting and protective of itself and its creatures)
3) Green (Growth-related Auras)
4) Black (Pact-types that give you a benefit for a drawback and Hex-types that debilitate the opponent)
5) Red (Gets the fewest enchantment-related effects)
Enchantment Hate
1)Green (Enchantments are lies and trickery that violate the natural state of the world)
2) White (Removes the rules set by others)
3) Blue (Can bounce/counter enchantments like any other card type)
4) Black/Red (Neither has any effective method of dealing with enchantments, as they are not part of the physical world and beyond their scope of influence)
This is getting kind of rambling, so:
tl;dr - Blue should be the enchantment color. Thoughts?
Artifacts can be moved to another color, or shared with others. White already loves Equipment, and often has other artifact-related effects (Open the Vaults, etc). Red also has a love/hate relationship with artifacts, similar to white's current relationship with Enchantments.
First, red does NOT have a love-hate relationship with artifacts. Goblin Welder and the like do not represent any sort of loving relationship with artifacts as a card type. It represents that goblins like to blow things up. Sometimes they smash things with the purpose of making new things out of them. But they only do this because they like to break stuff. This is also why they like killing lands.
I made this tirade once before though. I'll look for it.
On to enchantments. Following is how I break down the enchantment relationships with each color:
R: Does not understand enchantments. Cannot interact with them as they are not something they can smash. G: Fears enchantments (encroachments on the natural world), strives to destroy them. Enchantresses are an outdated concept in green. W: Understands enchantments. Knows how to use them and how to destroy them. With great power etc. U: Interacts with enchantments. In blue's quest to dominate the world, of course they will have touched upon enchantments. I was surprised how few blue cards actually care about enchantments, especially standard-legal. B: Understands the power of enchantments, but cannot control them. (for example, necropotence).
It's not quite as nicely balanced as artifact love-hate (which is nicely centered on blue), but the same sort of roles exist. There's the best color, then the two colors that sort of care, then the other two colors that just get angry at the thought. In this case there's different reasoning for it, of course, but eh.
Also, white gets equipment because blue isn't combat-oriented, and red creatures (the only other alternative, really) don't care about picking up a sword to bash you with. They'd rather beat you down with their fists and teeth and then blow up your sword as a victory celebration.
The thread in which a similar thing happened, only with green and artifacts.
Let me just state that I do like your flavor justification for this. It makes sense. Amadi's justification also made logical sense. We may be debating on two different wavelengths here. I am aware of this. Though, I would counter that blue seeks more to understand the world than to change it. It may change an individual (and indeed it does) but blue is better at adapting to change than causing it. Once blue has figured out the new rules, it will exploit them. Or, if it doesn't like what it sees coming, might bring in some veto power. As for the manipulation of enchantments, that fits well in white, though I haven't spent the time to figure out why. This is why I like your flavor justification.
What’s interesting is that blue, the king of artifacts, has very little hate against them. Hurkyl’s recall, sure, but compared to white, the prince of enchantments, it’s laughable. Why is this?
Other posters have already cited philosophy reasons, and that’s good, but I would go as far as to say that it’s mechanical necessity.
Let me start with artifacts, which are very neat. Blue is best, white gets equipment, black has synergy in numbers, red smash, and green hates to death. There’s one “good” color, two “ok” colors, and two “bad” colors.
With enchantments, let’s start with the two bad colors. Red is the bad color because it has no way to interact with enchantments. At all. Cards even say “nonenchantment” on them. Green is the other “bad” color, because of its hate. That leaves black, white, and blue. Black is an interesting case. It is not allowed to have enchantment hate by a grandfathered rule.
So, what does that mean in terms of enchantment hate? Like artifacts, it’s best if we have two colors that hate on enchantments mechanically. So far we only have one (green). The choices are white and blue. Now, let’s consider the two colors. Blue does not kill. It does not destroy. It bounces, it steals, it hides, it counters… but it does not have ways to permanently end threats. Therefore, destroying enchantments is out of the question. White has had enchantment destruction since day 1, and given that blue can’t have it, white needs to.
As for why white is the best manipulator, ask anybody else, but that last paragraph should explain why white gets the best manipulating and the best hate.
I understand the logic behind this, however I think that white should remain the main enchantment color. The reasoning is what you stated already, white loves to dictate laws and to enhance the little guys. I do agree that flavor-wise enchantments seem more blue than anything else, but it seems to cause some in balance. Artifacts feel out of place when not in blue, with maybe the exception of equipment, because blue is the color of thought and invention, which is a prominent part of engineering artifacts.
Perhaps a good middle ground to this would be to make enchantments equally white and blue, and doing the same with artifacts. The "white" part of artifacts could be largely Equipment to make it more flavorful, while blue gets all the controlling and illusion-based enchantments.
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I understand the logic behind this, however I think that white should remain the main enchantment color. The reasoning is what you stated already, white loves to dictate laws and to enhance the little guys. I do agree that flavor-wise enchantments seem more blue than anything else, but it seems to cause some in balance. Artifacts feel out of place when not in blue, with maybe the exception of equipment, because blue is the color of thought and invention, which is a prominent part of engineering artifacts.
Perhaps a good middle ground to this would be to make enchantments equally white and blue, and doing the same with artifacts. The "white" part of artifacts could be largely Equipment to make it more flavorful, while blue gets all the controlling and illusion-based enchantments.
I think this is an excellent compromise. I suppose going and making Blue #1 at enchantments might be a little much. But I definitely think that Blue should have a lot more interaction with enchantments than it does now.
White has two agendas when it comes to enchantments:
1) It sets rules for the world to follow. So playing enchantments is a good idea. This is the more blue-ish philosophy.
2) White wants stuff to be pure. Destroying enchantments (especially Auras) is a way to enforce this. This is the more green-ish philosophy.
White has two agendas when it comes to enchantments:
1) It sets rules for the world to follow. So playing enchantments is a good idea. This is the more blue-ish philosophy.
2) White wants stuff to be pure. Destroying enchantments (especially Auras) is a way to enforce this. This is the more green-ish philosophy.
You know, there isn't any single "artifact" color that both uses Artifacts and can destroy them with equal efficiency. Blue is the best at using and taking advantage of them, but it can't destroy them at all. The closest thing is Red, which can destroy Artifacts but can also use them by sacrificing them for its own advantage.
Though there are other card types that are both loved and hated by a single color. Green loves lands, and destroys them as well. Blue likes instants, and is the counterspell color as well. Creatures don't have that set up; green and white love them the most and red and black are best at destroying them, with white in third.
I suspect we'd have to wait for the next Enchantment block to see much more expansion of Enchantments amongst other colors. What I'd like to see are blue Enchantresses, and an overall better quality of blue enchantments, especially Auras.
Blue doesn't destroy artifacts or enchantments because it doesn't destroy, period. Blue gets so many other effects, such as bounce, counters, theft, and to a lesser extent conversion that outright destruction is not in its nature.
I also do not agree that there should be a color that can both utilize and destroy artifacts with the same efficiency. There's no colorlocking on most artifacts, so any color can use them. If one color is the most proficient at both using or ridding them, you'll be looking at an environment out of balance when you try to make a set based upon this theme.
In terms of the best enchantment color, you could be talking about two different things. Yes, white is the best enchantment color in terms of manipulating enchantments. It can find them, destroy them, and resurrect them. But you'll notice it doesn't get the best, most progressive enchantments. That's not in its nature. The most white gets is some form of tokengeneration. The really awesome enchantments, the ones that actively direct you toward winning the game, tend to be inothercolors. Have you ever found that there's often some really nifty enchantmentsearch in standard, in white, and a complete lack of anything on color to find with it whatsoever? It's frustrating! Sure, you'll find something to keep youalive, but that's not everything.
So yes, white IS the best color at doing all things dealing with enchantments, but the ones it makes don't get you into the game alone. You have to dip into the other colors to get their nifty enchantments.
And that's always bugged me. If white is the best enchantment color, it should get awesome ones. They don't happen very often, perhaps because enchantments are so often overlooked.
I don't see why Red wouldn't get Enchantment Love - while it might be too guttural to manipulate them, it is also the color of creativity and emotion, which are the paintbrushes it uses to create new enchantments.
For example:
Erratic Field2R Instant
Reveal the top ten cards of your library. You may choose an Aura card revealed this way and attach it to target creature. Exile that Aura at the beginning of the next end step.
Harrafaz, the Fluctuation3RR Legendary creature - Elemental Wizard
Whenever Harrafaz, the Fluctuation would be put into a graveyard from the battlefield, you may put an enchantment in your hand onto the battlefield and exile Harrafaz, the Fluctuation haunting that enchantment.
Whenever haunted enchantment would be put into a graveyard from the battlefield, return Harrafaz, the Fluctuation to the battlefield from exile. 4/4
Why?
What part of white's philosophy/flavor lends to being so connected to Enchantments? I can think of only two reasons: 1) White likes global enchantments that either set rules, or protect/enchance its creatures; and 2) White likes Auras that protect and enhance individual creatures. These reasons do make an amount of sense, but I just don't think that these alone are good enough reasons for White to be the best color at dealing with enchantments. Best at destroying them, sure, but maybe second best at using them (I'll get to which color I think should be best in a moment).
Enchantments are persistent spells that modify play in some way. They are either global enchantments, that usually have an effect on the entire battlefield or modify some aspect of the game, or local enchantments that modify the object they enchant. Enchantments are, at their most basic, about changing and modifying something.
The color that is most interested in change, modification, and manipulation of the world around it? Blue, of course.
Blue should be the Enchantment color. Blue loves enchantments because they are a way to change something into something else; they give a creature new abilities, they change the rules of the game. Blue loves enchantments because they are a way to project their will onto the physical world.
Here's how I feel the breakdown should be for enchantment interaction:
Enchantment Love
1) Blue (Global and Auras of all types; used to modify and take control of your and your opponent's resources)
2) White (Rules-setting and protective of itself and its creatures)
3) Green (Growth-related Auras)
4) Black (Pact-types that give you a benefit for a drawback and Hex-types that debilitate the opponent)
5) Red (Gets the fewest enchantment-related effects)
Enchantment Hate
1)Green (Enchantments are lies and trickery that violate the natural state of the world)
2) White (Removes the rules set by others)
3) Blue (Can bounce/counter enchantments like any other card type)
4) Black/Red (Neither has any effective method of dealing with enchantments, as they are not part of the physical world and beyond their scope of influence)
This is getting kind of rambling, so:
tl;dr - Blue should be the enchantment color. Thoughts?
R Citizen Cane (Feldon of the Third Path)
Agreed.
Artifacts can be moved to another color, or shared with others. White already loves Equipment, and often has other artifact-related effects (Open the Vaults, etc). Red also has a love/hate relationship with artifacts, similar to white's current relationship with Enchantments.
R Citizen Cane (Feldon of the Third Path)
I made this tirade once before though. I'll look for it.
On to enchantments. Following is how I break down the enchantment relationships with each color:
R: Does not understand enchantments. Cannot interact with them as they are not something they can smash.
G: Fears enchantments (encroachments on the natural world), strives to destroy them. Enchantresses are an outdated concept in green.
W: Understands enchantments. Knows how to use them and how to destroy them. With great power etc.
U: Interacts with enchantments. In blue's quest to dominate the world, of course they will have touched upon enchantments. I was surprised how few blue cards actually care about enchantments, especially standard-legal.
B: Understands the power of enchantments, but cannot control them. (for example, necropotence).
It's not quite as nicely balanced as artifact love-hate (which is nicely centered on blue), but the same sort of roles exist. There's the best color, then the two colors that sort of care, then the other two colors that just get angry at the thought. In this case there's different reasoning for it, of course, but eh.
Also, white gets equipment because blue isn't combat-oriented, and red creatures (the only other alternative, really) don't care about picking up a sword to bash you with. They'd rather beat you down with their fists and teeth and then blow up your sword as a victory celebration.
The thread in which a similar thing happened, only with green and artifacts.
Let me just state that I do like your flavor justification for this. It makes sense. Amadi's justification also made logical sense. We may be debating on two different wavelengths here. I am aware of this. Though, I would counter that blue seeks more to understand the world than to change it. It may change an individual (and indeed it does) but blue is better at adapting to change than causing it. Once blue has figured out the new rules, it will exploit them. Or, if it doesn't like what it sees coming, might bring in some veto power. As for the manipulation of enchantments, that fits well in white, though I haven't spent the time to figure out why. This is why I like your flavor justification.
What’s interesting is that blue, the king of artifacts, has very little hate against them. Hurkyl’s recall, sure, but compared to white, the prince of enchantments, it’s laughable. Why is this?
Other posters have already cited philosophy reasons, and that’s good, but I would go as far as to say that it’s mechanical necessity.
Let me start with artifacts, which are very neat. Blue is best, white gets equipment, black has synergy in numbers, red smash, and green hates to death. There’s one “good” color, two “ok” colors, and two “bad” colors.
With enchantments, let’s start with the two bad colors. Red is the bad color because it has no way to interact with enchantments. At all. Cards even say “nonenchantment” on them. Green is the other “bad” color, because of its hate. That leaves black, white, and blue. Black is an interesting case. It is not allowed to have enchantment hate by a grandfathered rule.
So, what does that mean in terms of enchantment hate? Like artifacts, it’s best if we have two colors that hate on enchantments mechanically. So far we only have one (green). The choices are white and blue. Now, let’s consider the two colors. Blue does not kill. It does not destroy. It bounces, it steals, it hides, it counters… but it does not have ways to permanently end threats. Therefore, destroying enchantments is out of the question. White has had enchantment destruction since day 1, and given that blue can’t have it, white needs to.
As for why white is the best manipulator, ask anybody else, but that last paragraph should explain why white gets the best manipulating and the best hate.
Perhaps a good middle ground to this would be to make enchantments equally white and blue, and doing the same with artifacts. The "white" part of artifacts could be largely Equipment to make it more flavorful, while blue gets all the controlling and illusion-based enchantments.
I think this is an excellent compromise. I suppose going and making Blue #1 at enchantments might be a little much. But I definitely think that Blue should have a lot more interaction with enchantments than it does now.
R Citizen Cane (Feldon of the Third Path)
1) It sets rules for the world to follow. So playing enchantments is a good idea. This is the more blue-ish philosophy.
2) White wants stuff to be pure. Destroying enchantments (especially Auras) is a way to enforce this. This is the more green-ish philosophy.
You know, there isn't any single "artifact" color that both uses Artifacts and can destroy them with equal efficiency. Blue is the best at using and taking advantage of them, but it can't destroy them at all. The closest thing is Red, which can destroy Artifacts but can also use them by sacrificing them for its own advantage.
Though there are other card types that are both loved and hated by a single color. Green loves lands, and destroys them as well. Blue likes instants, and is the counterspell color as well. Creatures don't have that set up; green and white love them the most and red and black are best at destroying them, with white in third.
I suspect we'd have to wait for the next Enchantment block to see much more expansion of Enchantments amongst other colors. What I'd like to see are blue Enchantresses, and an overall better quality of blue enchantments, especially Auras.
R Citizen Cane (Feldon of the Third Path)
I also do not agree that there should be a color that can both utilize and destroy artifacts with the same efficiency. There's no colorlocking on most artifacts, so any color can use them. If one color is the most proficient at both using or ridding them, you'll be looking at an environment out of balance when you try to make a set based upon this theme.
In terms of the best enchantment color, you could be talking about two different things. Yes, white is the best enchantment color in terms of manipulating enchantments. It can find them, destroy them, and resurrect them. But you'll notice it doesn't get the best, most progressive enchantments. That's not in its nature. The most white gets is some form of token generation. The really awesome enchantments, the ones that actively direct you toward winning the game, tend to be in other colors. Have you ever found that there's often some really nifty enchantment search in standard, in white, and a complete lack of anything on color to find with it whatsoever? It's frustrating! Sure, you'll find something to keep you alive, but that's not everything.
So yes, white IS the best color at doing all things dealing with enchantments, but the ones it makes don't get you into the game alone. You have to dip into the other colors to get their nifty enchantments.
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For example:
Erratic Field 2R
Instant
Reveal the top ten cards of your library. You may choose an Aura card revealed this way and attach it to target creature. Exile that Aura at the beginning of the next end step.
Harrafaz, the Fluctuation 3RR
Legendary creature - Elemental Wizard
Whenever Harrafaz, the Fluctuation would be put into a graveyard from the battlefield, you may put an enchantment in your hand onto the battlefield and exile Harrafaz, the Fluctuation haunting that enchantment.
Whenever haunted enchantment would be put into a graveyard from the battlefield, return Harrafaz, the Fluctuation to the battlefield from exile.
4/4