I figured it was the right colour combination for card advantage and tricks:
Spellswirl -
Instant (U)
Cascade (When you play this spell, remove cards from the top of your library from the game until you remove a nonland card whose converted mana cost is less than this spell's converted mana cost. You may play that card without paying its mana cost. Then put all cards removed from the game this way that weren't played on the bottom of your library in a random order.)
Cascade
Just something tasty that some big flying hasty trampling dragons inspired me to make. I imagine him as a flaming spinning ball of fangs, scales, and claws.
Jund is a strange color combination to see a 3/3 flyer for three... but... it's a dragon. Therefore it works automatically!
Spellswirl: Silly and awesome. I'd prefer if it was 3WU, as if it was just hybrid, it would only ever see play in monoblue... perhaps. Counterspells aren't generally what you want to hit... unless of course you do.
Ah, why not...
3WU
Instant
~ has cascade for each color of mana spent to play it.
Dragons are big. Hellions are big. 3/3?
I mean, sure you want him competetive (ram-gang plus evasion, hugely powerful), but to me a dragon hellion is like 6/6, 5/5 at smallest.
Spellswhirl is very cool! But it really doesn't feel white to me at all. I think it makes a lot more sense at :3mana::symu::symr:. It seems quite powerful too.
hellion - yeah, this doesn't feel like the right color combination for an efficient 3-mana flyer. I'd remove black from it altogether, unless we're in hyper-Alara mode. Maybe make it a drake, or at least change the name, to make a 3/3 dragon make more sense? Like some sort of whelp?
Spellswhirl is very cool! But it really doesn't feel white to me at all. I think it makes a lot more sense at :3mana::symu::symr:. It seems quite powerful too.
I'd agree with this too. It's something I think everyone considered, but that doesn't mean it's not cool.
Since cascade is spread throughout all the colours, ANY combination is acceptable. I do think blue should be one of the two, though, because Spellswirl is card advantage, and instant too. 3WU, 3GU, and 3UR sound best to me.
There are 9 Dragons with 1, 2, or 3 power. Half of all Hellions have 1, 2, or 3 power. So a 3/3 does make sense in those creature types. However, I too have trouble seeing the black (though it makes perfect sense for black to get haste, trample, and/or flying).
Since cascade is spread throughout all the colours, ANY combination is acceptable. I do think blue should be one of the two, though, because Spellswirl is card advantage, and instant too. 3WU, 3GU, and 3UR sound best to me.
True, but if we are going to make a double cascade card, I think we need to get more into what the mechanic is really "about." It's about card advantage, but also (and more importantly, in my mind) random card advantage. It's also about playing spells for free, which is some sort of mana/time advantage I guess. I feel like white doesn't care about card advantage (it really only gets it when it is sandbagging into mass removal or using combat tricks, or artificial card advantage from making multiple tokens with one card) and certainly doesn't like randomness. White also doesn't really get to play things for free, which is more green/blue/red to me. By this criteria, I really feel like white/blue might be the least appropriate color combination of the three, but I guess putting creatures into play at instant speed is white, and that's something this could do. Anyway, I like blue/red best for the chaotic element Also, the two best cascade spells have red in them, but that could just be coincidence.
edit: wither was also spread throughout all the colors, but a 2/2 wither for :symw::symu: (or :symuw::symuw:) would NOT be acceptable to me. (but wither's complete inappropriateness on at least two of the five colors is a rant for another post.)
Since cascade is spread throughout all the colours, ANY combination is acceptable. I do think blue should be one of the two, though, because Spellswirl is card advantage, and instant too. 3WU, 3GU, and 3UR sound best to me.
I'm going to echo what Sleeper Agent said and say that, though the mechanic is for any color, this card belongs most in UR.
Cantrips go in any color, but card draw is in blue. The red part comes from the the random (see Erratic Explosion).
The problem isn't really with the P/T, but the fact that green and red shouldn't get such efficient fliers.
It's not the green that's giving it flying - that would be the trample part, and to a lesser degree, the haste part. The flying comes from the red. I disagree with you that red can't get efficient fliers. 7/7 for 7, 6/6 for 6, 5/5 for 5, etc. But where you may have a point is in the 2-4cc range. Perhaps Drakes, being red flying creatures in the 2-4cc range, simply MUST suck. Poor Drakes!
we need to get more into what the mechanic is really "about." It's about .. random card advantage.
Yeah, cascade is pretty random, unless you're using Sensei's Divining Top etc to ensure you get what you want, but I see what you mean. Since red is the colour most associated with randomness, yeah, maybe cascade should have been a red (or mostly red) keyword. But it's not. In fact, red is tied with green for the fewest cascade spells, although generally all the colours have roughly similar amounts of cascade. In any case, you could argue that because red is the colour of randomness, and drawing cards from your deck is just as random as revealing cards from your deck, card draw spells should be red. Which is clearly wrong.
All that said, I have no problem with Spellswirl costing 3UR. It goes nicely with the card name, too.
I think the Hellion is perfect at BRG - or it could also work at URG, but then it isn't a fit in the Alara world. (Boo hoo). Lightning Angel is a similar card - haste makes no sense in blue or white, but the card overall makes sense.
I'd rename it Hellion Whelp.
The double Cascade spell is cool, and, if Maelstron Nexus is anything to go by, could even be replaced by this:
I kinda like Spellswirl as white, though it fits red also, maybe make it cost 2UW/ Its a little weird like that lol but it fits. I really don't see how it could be black though, I mean yeah black could feasibly do it, I'm not saying it can't, but I think there would have to be some other effect for black to do it by itself.
As for the Drake, I think it fits fine at b/r/g. It makes sense and in the end looked like a solid beater. I can see the argument for taking black out though, but if you kept it a drake, then black would be giving it flying, not the dragon part of it.
I like the dragon as a 3/3 for :symb::symr::symg: (and as a dragon hellion) It's sexy, compact and brutal. I also like the unique nature of it. I feel the hellion creature type gives a certain brutality to the dragon half of the creature, almost as if it were a smaller, but more ferocious little dragonling.
I swear, if half of you all were working at R&D, we would never get any new cards! I.E. "This is how things have been, can't deviate!"
I personally like the double cascade at :symu::symr:, but it's fine as is.
I like the dragon as a 3/3 for :symb::symr::symg: (and as a dragon hellion) It's sexy, compact and brutal. I also like the unique nature of it. I feel the hellion creature type gives a certain brutality to the dragon half of the creature, almost as if it were a smaller, but more ferocious little dragonling.
I've actually swung back to liking the dragon as being tri-color. Simple red/green didn't feel right, whether it was a drake or not. Though I still feel like something is "off" about it, probably just because such an efficient, mid-size flyer seems out of flavor and adding black doesn't help at all with that fact. Like, if you asked me which tri-color would get the better 3/3 flyer, jund or bant, I'd go with bant - it has the two flying colors and the two "efficient cheap creature" colors. But this thing just jumps all over a poser like Jenara. Still, this is about as exciting as a 3/3 creature can get, and that's not a bad thing.
edit: also, I'd like it a bit more if Hellion was just being used for its literal, descriptive meaning than as an actual "magic the gathering hellion" - it would make it feel more like a wild crazy angry dragon whelp than a dragon/tentacle hybrid. But I suppose both have interesting flavor.
I swear, if half of you all were working at R&D, we would never get any new cards! I.E. "This is how things have been, can't deviate!"
Perhaps...if I worked at R&D, blue wouldn't get lifegain or lifelink, red wouldn't get shroud, but would get to be the only "relentless assault" color, white wouldn't get trample or wither, and green probably wouldn't get ball lightnings or direct damage to non-flyers. So that would mean a lot of the once-new cards from the past three blocks wouldn't exist. But it's a price I'd be willing to pay
(not saying that R_E's cards are anything like the above-mentioned examples, of course.)
I like the dragon as a 3/3 for (and as a dragon hellion) It's sexy, compact and brutal. I also like the unique nature of it. I feel the hellion creature type gives a certain brutality to the dragon half of the creature, almost as if it were a smaller, but more ferocious little dragonling.
Well, that IS exactly as I envisioned it, so I'm glad you got it
EDIT: Side note... could be flavourful as a Kavu..
Though I still feel like something is "off" about it, probably just because such an efficient, mid-size flyer seems out of flavor and adding black doesn't help at all with that fact.
Hmm, perhaps the black could be justified by some sort of Juzam like drawback. I.E. lose 1 life during your upkeep? Power for a price and all.
I like how people were arguing what Cascade really "meant" and what colors really "felt" for it. That's like saying a card with multiple instances of Clash "should" be blue/green - or at the very least, not black. In reality, I think it depends heavily on the flavor of the card; To be honest, I liked WU because the colors seemed fine, and it seemed like an intricate array of arcana generated two random spells. I would also like a RU version that had a more chaotic flavor to it, but I really feel like the flavor makes it.
Dragon Hellion is an awesome card; The first thing that came to mind was a picture of the traditional chivalrous knight running away from a bounding, scaled mass of death
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Spellswirl -
Instant (U)
Cascade (When you play this spell, remove cards from the top of your library from the game until you remove a nonland card whose converted mana cost is less than this spell's converted mana cost. You may play that card without paying its mana cost. Then put all cards removed from the game this way that weren't played on the bottom of your library in a random order.)
Cascade
Just something tasty that some big flying hasty trampling dragons inspired me to make. I imagine him as a flaming spinning ball of fangs, scales, and claws.
Dragon Hellion - BRG
Creature - Dragon Hellion (R)
Flying, haste, trample
3/3
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Spellswirl: Silly and awesome. I'd prefer if it was 3WU, as if it was just hybrid, it would only ever see play in monoblue... perhaps. Counterspells aren't generally what you want to hit... unless of course you do.
Ah, why not...
3WU
Instant
~ has cascade for each color of mana spent to play it.
Banner by Topher!
I mean, sure you want him competetive (ram-gang plus evasion, hugely powerful), but to me a dragon hellion is like 6/6, 5/5 at smallest.
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=504072
hellion - yeah, this doesn't feel like the right color combination for an efficient 3-mana flyer. I'd remove black from it altogether, unless we're in hyper-Alara mode. Maybe make it a drake, or at least change the name, to make a 3/3 dragon make more sense? Like some sort of whelp?
There are 9 Dragons with 1, 2, or 3 power. Half of all Hellions have 1, 2, or 3 power. So a 3/3 does make sense in those creature types. However, I too have trouble seeing the black (though it makes perfect sense for black to get haste, trample, and/or flying).
Gruul Drake - RRG
Creature - Drake (R)
Flying, haste, trample
3/3
Less useful creature type, less restrictive mana cost.
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True, but if we are going to make a double cascade card, I think we need to get more into what the mechanic is really "about." It's about card advantage, but also (and more importantly, in my mind) random card advantage. It's also about playing spells for free, which is some sort of mana/time advantage I guess. I feel like white doesn't care about card advantage (it really only gets it when it is sandbagging into mass removal or using combat tricks, or artificial card advantage from making multiple tokens with one card) and certainly doesn't like randomness. White also doesn't really get to play things for free, which is more green/blue/red to me. By this criteria, I really feel like white/blue might be the least appropriate color combination of the three, but I guess putting creatures into play at instant speed is white, and that's something this could do. Anyway, I like blue/red best for the chaotic element Also, the two best cascade spells have red in them, but that could just be coincidence.
edit: wither was also spread throughout all the colors, but a 2/2 wither for :symw::symu: (or :symuw::symuw:) would NOT be acceptable to me. (but wither's complete inappropriateness on at least two of the five colors is a rant for another post.)
Cantrips go in any color, but card draw is in blue. The red part comes from the the random (see Erratic Explosion).
Sweet, we agree!
It's not the green that's giving it flying - that would be the trample part, and to a lesser degree, the haste part. The flying comes from the red. I disagree with you that red can't get efficient fliers. 7/7 for 7, 6/6 for 6, 5/5 for 5, etc. But where you may have a point is in the 2-4cc range. Perhaps Drakes, being red flying creatures in the 2-4cc range, simply MUST suck. Poor Drakes!
Yeah, cascade is pretty random, unless you're using Sensei's Divining Top etc to ensure you get what you want, but I see what you mean. Since red is the colour most associated with randomness, yeah, maybe cascade should have been a red (or mostly red) keyword. But it's not. In fact, red is tied with green for the fewest cascade spells, although generally all the colours have roughly similar amounts of cascade. In any case, you could argue that because red is the colour of randomness, and drawing cards from your deck is just as random as revealing cards from your deck, card draw spells should be red. Which is clearly wrong.
All that said, I have no problem with Spellswirl costing 3UR. It goes nicely with the card name, too.
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I'd rename it Hellion Whelp.
The double Cascade spell is cool, and, if Maelstron Nexus is anything to go by, could even be replaced by this:
Spellswirl WUBRG
Instant
Cascade
Cascade
Cascade
Lightning Angel
What?
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=504072
As for the Drake, I think it fits fine at b/r/g. It makes sense and in the end looked like a solid beater. I can see the argument for taking black out though, but if you kept it a drake, then black would be giving it flying, not the dragon part of it.
3:symur::symwb:
Leaving only green out in the cold really. Or you could make it solidly a blue card and mix the last two 2 :symwg::symrb:U
I swear, if half of you all were working at R&D, we would never get any new cards! I.E. "This is how things have been, can't deviate!"
I personally like the double cascade at :symu::symr:, but it's fine as is.
I've actually swung back to liking the dragon as being tri-color. Simple red/green didn't feel right, whether it was a drake or not. Though I still feel like something is "off" about it, probably just because such an efficient, mid-size flyer seems out of flavor and adding black doesn't help at all with that fact. Like, if you asked me which tri-color would get the better 3/3 flyer, jund or bant, I'd go with bant - it has the two flying colors and the two "efficient cheap creature" colors. But this thing just jumps all over a poser like Jenara. Still, this is about as exciting as a 3/3 creature can get, and that's not a bad thing.
edit: also, I'd like it a bit more if Hellion was just being used for its literal, descriptive meaning than as an actual "magic the gathering hellion" - it would make it feel more like a wild crazy angry dragon whelp than a dragon/tentacle hybrid. But I suppose both have interesting flavor.
Perhaps...if I worked at R&D, blue wouldn't get lifegain or lifelink, red wouldn't get shroud, but would get to be the only "relentless assault" color, white wouldn't get trample or wither, and green probably wouldn't get ball lightnings or direct damage to non-flyers. So that would mean a lot of the once-new cards from the past three blocks wouldn't exist. But it's a price I'd be willing to pay
(not saying that R_E's cards are anything like the above-mentioned examples, of course.)
Well, that IS exactly as I envisioned it, so I'm glad you got it
EDIT: Side note... could be flavourful as a Kavu..
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I do like the gang of imps or swarm of gnats idea as well
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Hmm, perhaps the black could be justified by some sort of Juzam like drawback. I.E. lose 1 life during your upkeep? Power for a price and all.
Dragon Hellion is an awesome card; The first thing that came to mind was a picture of the traditional chivalrous knight running away from a bounding, scaled mass of death