Something that probably has been done before, but for some reason I think that WOTC will end up doing this sooner rather than later. The problem: does it really work within the rules to have a non-standard cost to be paid? Here, you're basically agreeing to a provisional clause to get the benefit, usually powerful or at a reduced (mana) cost.
Narcoleptic Seer GU
Creature - Elf Cleric
1/1 T, Narcoleptic Seer doesn't untap next turn: Draw a card.
Isolation 2WW
Enchantment 1W, Discard a card, You can't play additional spells or activated abilities this turn: You can't lose the game this turn.
Narcoleptic seer is a bit underwhelming. Maybe if he drew 3 he'd be ok?
Isolation might be too good, on the other hand, especially in a W/ or W/ draw deck in multiplayer. Maybe it needs to be something like: 2WW
Enchantment W: Discard a card, you cannot play additional spells or activated abilities this turn, put a depletion counter on Isolation: You cannot lose the game this turn. You cannot draw cards as long as there is a depletion counter on Isolation. At the beginning of your upkeep, if there are no cards in yolur hand, remove all depletion counters from Isolation.
Narcoleptic Seer looks pretty balanced as-is; three cards would make it waaay over the top, Ihsan. It could be fun with all kinds of untap abilities, and is still decent without them.You might be able to get away with making it a 1/2.
Isolation doesn't work very well; if you would lose due to having no life, you'll just lose when the ability wears off at EOT. It will protect you from like Door to Nothingness, but effects like that don't come up too often, so the card's not too useful. You'd need to word it like Angel's Grace. Even if it were worded like that, it wouldn't be a very fun card. Imagine in limited (or casual), where your opponent would smash with all their creatures, you'd stop yourself from losing, and poke away with your little flying creatures. You'd need to do something different with it.
As far as the costs go, the one on Narcoleptic Seer could definitely work, and I wouldn't be surprised if it is already on a few cards. Isolation's is a little bit weirder, but could probably still work.
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Something that probably has been done before, but for some reason I think that WOTC will end up doing this sooner rather than later. The problem: does it really work within the rules to have a non-standard cost to be paid? Here, you're basically agreeing to a provisional clause to get the benefit, usually powerful or at a reduced (mana) cost.
Narcoleptic Seer GU
Creature - Elf Cleric
1/1 T, Narcoleptic Seer doesn't untap next turn: Draw a card.
Isolation 2WW
Enchantment 1W, Discard a card, You can't play additional spells or activated abilities this turn: You can't lose the game this turn.
You can have any one-shot effect you can describe as a cost, but I don't think you can have a continuous effect as one. It's... strange, because the effect isn't being generated by anything.
I'm thinking you could write a triggered ability "When you play [CARDNAME]'s ability, [effect].", where [effect] is the drawback. It's not any defined sort of linked ability, but it could be one.
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Couldn't these just be part of the effect, anyway? Like ":symtap:: Draw a card. Narcoleptic Seer doesn't untap next turn." It would only make a difference if the ability was countered, and that hardly seems significant.
Dreamwalk Dude GU
Creature - Dude T: Draw a card: Draw a card. Dreamwalk Dude doesn't untap during your next untap step.
1/1
For Isolation, you can't have that text in the cost really. Instead, it should be something like...
Isolation 2WW
Enchantment 1W, Discard a card: Until end of turn or until your play a spell or an activated ability other than a mana ability, you can't lose the game and your opponents can't win the game and if damage would reduce your life total to less than 1, it reduces it to 1 instead.
Alternately, you could give the ability split second and make it force you to be unable to play spells or nonmana activated abilities.
It would only make a difference if the ability was countered, and that hardly seems significant.
Not just that but it would allow them to play additional spells while Isolation's effect is on the stack. Which I believe is what Solmancer was trying to prevent?
Not just that but it would allow them to play additional spells while Isolation's effect is on the stack. Which I believe is what Solmancer was trying to prevent?
In the case of Isolation, this was the point, and a bit of the flavor: You head towards isolation, where you're all alone, tune out the world, lalala-can't-hear-you, etc.
As I said above, this is the reason I brought up the thread: does it work to have "commitments" for a cost, provided that they aren't arguably degenerate? I think in some cases it can, particularly in the case of "stunning" (skips next untap) a permanent, or requiring you to agree to some condition like "you can't do <something>". It largely depends on the effects/commitments, but I think it's doable. In the case of Time Vault, that was a bit degenerate because of Flame Fusillade.
Flame Fusillade only served to highlight what was already a problem in templating. Now that we know how much of a problem it is, we know to use a different templating.
Not just that but it would allow them to play additional spells while Isolation's effect is on the stack. Which I believe is what Solmancer was trying to prevent?
Well, it prevents the player from using Isolation as a discard outlet for madness cards. Otherwise the player could just play other spells first then activate the ability. Limiting it so that you can't play madness spells or Cancel an opponent's Stiffle is just a needless and narrow drawback.
Narcoleptic Seer :symg::symu:
Creature - Elf Cleric
, Narcoleptic Seer doesn't untap next turn: Draw a card.
1/1
Dont know why this card is "cleric" at all, shaman or wizard will do a lot better (Cleric is more about gaining life, preventing or something like that and traditional white, shaman is green version of wizards, especially for summoning, wizard is just a creature that "casts" spells in form of abilities).
So all in all this card is still nuts.
You can play it in Limited and get a free card draw engine in it, it doesnt matter that you can use it only after 2 turns, its still card advantage and you will allways have ways to untap this creature with spells or abilities.
And that makes it nuts for constructed. Being an elf makes it easy to untap this guy, and counting a bunch of massive untap abilities you can combo out if you play this guy together with Intruder Alarm (play creature, draw card, play another creature, draw, plays out like Glimpse of Nature, just that its an elf itself, using Wirewood Symbiotic and the bunch)
So theirs no reason to up it to 2/2 or anything, but wording wise the untap makes not really sence for this card. Maybe you can change it to a tribal like card that is a bridge for elf + wizard:
Narcoleptic Seer :symg::symu:
Creature - Elf, Wizard
: Draw a card. Put a -1/-1 counter on ~.
Tap an untapped wizard and elf you control: Untap ~ and remove a counter of your choice from it.
2/2
Idea is to change the "cant untap" for a -1/-1 counter which symbolizes the exhaustion of the creature casting the "cantrip".
And the bridge part will make sure you can have a very nice draw engine if you can have a bunch of elfs and wizards paired together, which gives the "draw" an additional green flavour for having a lot creatures.
Isolation :2mana::symw::symw:
Enchantment
:1mana::symw:, Discard a card, You can't play additional spells or activated abilities this turn: You can't lose the game this turn.
Doesnt really help if you just dont lose "this" turn, as you will still die next turn with 0 life.
However, beside that its pretty bad as it is, compared to Solitary Confinment its a lot weaker and mana cost is higher and you still need mana to use it and cards, so theirs much that dont work for this card, beside that the ability will even give you an additional drawback.
Cards like that can be like Worship, so theirs something that keeps you alive your opponent can "fight" (cards in hand are hard to fight for most players) and Solitary Confinment fixes itself with the skip and discard combined (even if its still powerfull with Genesis, Squee, LifeFromtheLoam and such recurrsion cards).
So to fix the card, it might be best to look for Worship and fix it to a Platinum Angelgrace.
Isolation :2mana::symw:
Enchantment
:2mana::symw:, Return three creatures you control to its owners hand: You can't lose the game until your next turn ends.
So it will protect you as long as you can play 3 creatures and pay its activation cost, but as long as your creatures have shroud or protection and are cheap enough to cast you have something to play with and it might be a nice card even if you dont need the Angels Grace, just to get your creatures back in combat, to replay them or to get some Auras away (Pacifismn and the like), which all in all make this card a nice rare to have and more easy to fight than a Worship (which is a pain if you play red and face a Silver Knight).
Important for this card is to keep it on a single white, so players are not forced to have heavy white for it (simply because the effect can be played nice in many different colors).
For the main idea to give cards more "costs":
I think that is really not needed. Pretty much every cost can easy be done in the effect as an part of it. It just makes sence if its important to keep the card from going nuts (look for the -1/-1 counters in the exhaustion cycle in shadowmoor) and most things are removed from costs, especially if they are things that you dont "really own", it should allways be something you have and offer as a cost, so not skipping something is a bad cost, its better a part of the effect.
If you really want these kinds of commitments to take effect regardless of whether the activated ability has resolved (yet), you can do it with a separate ability like this:
"As long as you've played an activated ability of ~ this turn, you can't play spells or activated abilities except for mana abilities."
However, I can't imagine why you'd want to do such a thing.
Additionally, cards that repeatedly stop you from losing can create really boring games. This is why they should and usually do have some kind of offensive value, eg. Platinum Angel is also a 4/4 flyer and not just an indestructible non-creature annoyance. Alternately, they should at least have some kind of loophole, like the fact that Worship only stops damage and only works if you control a creature. Solitary Confinement shows that WOTC does sometimes make cards like this on very rare occasions, but I can't say I think it's a good idea...I guess they're just throwing a bone to "Griefer Timmy"
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Narcoleptic Seer
GU
Creature - Elf Cleric
1/1
T, Narcoleptic Seer doesn't untap next turn: Draw a card.
Isolation
2WW
Enchantment
1W, Discard a card, You can't play additional spells or activated abilities this turn: You can't lose the game this turn.
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- Kaladesh
- Zendikar
- Rise of the Eldrazi
- Alara Reborn
- Innistrad <- Personal Favorite
- Dark Ascension
- Avacyn Restored
- Theros
- Return to Ravnica
- Tarkir
Isolation might be too good, on the other hand, especially in a W/ or W/ draw deck in multiplayer. Maybe it needs to be something like:
2WW
Enchantment
W: Discard a card, you cannot play additional spells or activated abilities this turn, put a depletion counter on Isolation: You cannot lose the game this turn. You cannot draw cards as long as there is a depletion counter on Isolation. At the beginning of your upkeep, if there are no cards in yolur hand, remove all depletion counters from Isolation.
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Isolation doesn't work very well; if you would lose due to having no life, you'll just lose when the ability wears off at EOT. It will protect you from like Door to Nothingness, but effects like that don't come up too often, so the card's not too useful. You'd need to word it like Angel's Grace. Even if it were worded like that, it wouldn't be a very fun card. Imagine in limited (or casual), where your opponent would smash with all their creatures, you'd stop yourself from losing, and poke away with your little flying creatures. You'd need to do something different with it.
As far as the costs go, the one on Narcoleptic Seer could definitely work, and I wouldn't be surprised if it is already on a few cards. Isolation's is a little bit weirder, but could probably still work.
You can have any one-shot effect you can describe as a cost, but I don't think you can have a continuous effect as one. It's... strange, because the effect isn't being generated by anything.
I'm thinking you could write a triggered ability "When you play [CARDNAME]'s ability, [effect].", where [effect] is the drawback. It's not any defined sort of linked ability, but it could be one.
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Dreamwalk Dude GU
Creature - Dude
T: Draw a card: Draw a card. Dreamwalk Dude doesn't untap during your next untap step.
1/1
For Isolation, you can't have that text in the cost really. Instead, it should be something like...
Isolation 2WW
Enchantment
1W, Discard a card: Until end of turn or until your play a spell or an activated ability other than a mana ability, you can't lose the game and your opponents can't win the game and if damage would reduce your life total to less than 1, it reduces it to 1 instead.
Alternately, you could give the ability split second and make it force you to be unable to play spells or nonmana activated abilities.
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Paying a cost with a resource that you don't have yet just doesn't work. Costs need to be paid with tangible resources.
Not just that but it would allow them to play additional spells while Isolation's effect is on the stack. Which I believe is what Solmancer was trying to prevent?
As I said above, this is the reason I brought up the thread: does it work to have "commitments" for a cost, provided that they aren't arguably degenerate? I think in some cases it can, particularly in the case of "stunning" (skips next untap) a permanent, or requiring you to agree to some condition like "you can't do <something>". It largely depends on the effects/commitments, but I think it's doable. In the case of Time Vault, that was a bit degenerate because of Flame Fusillade.
Past Ruminations
Links are broken, will fix in near future.
- Kaladesh
- Zendikar
- Rise of the Eldrazi
- Alara Reborn
- Innistrad <- Personal Favorite
- Dark Ascension
- Avacyn Restored
- Theros
- Return to Ravnica
- Tarkir
Well, it prevents the player from using Isolation as a discard outlet for madness cards. Otherwise the player could just play other spells first then activate the ability. Limiting it so that you can't play madness spells or Cancel an opponent's Stiffle is just a needless and narrow drawback.
Creature - Elf Cleric
, Narcoleptic Seer doesn't untap next turn: Draw a card.
1/1
Dont know why this card is "cleric" at all, shaman or wizard will do a lot better (Cleric is more about gaining life, preventing or something like that and traditional white, shaman is green version of wizards, especially for summoning, wizard is just a creature that "casts" spells in form of abilities).
So all in all this card is still nuts.
You can play it in Limited and get a free card draw engine in it, it doesnt matter that you can use it only after 2 turns, its still card advantage and you will allways have ways to untap this creature with spells or abilities.
And that makes it nuts for constructed. Being an elf makes it easy to untap this guy, and counting a bunch of massive untap abilities you can combo out if you play this guy together with Intruder Alarm (play creature, draw card, play another creature, draw, plays out like Glimpse of Nature, just that its an elf itself, using Wirewood Symbiotic and the bunch)
So theirs no reason to up it to 2/2 or anything, but wording wise the untap makes not really sence for this card. Maybe you can change it to a tribal like card that is a bridge for elf + wizard:
Narcoleptic Seer :symg::symu:
Creature - Elf, Wizard
: Draw a card. Put a -1/-1 counter on ~.
Tap an untapped wizard and elf you control: Untap ~ and remove a counter of your choice from it.
2/2
Idea is to change the "cant untap" for a -1/-1 counter which symbolizes the exhaustion of the creature casting the "cantrip".
And the bridge part will make sure you can have a very nice draw engine if you can have a bunch of elfs and wizards paired together, which gives the "draw" an additional green flavour for having a lot creatures.
Isolation :2mana::symw::symw:
Enchantment
:1mana::symw:, Discard a card, You can't play additional spells or activated abilities this turn: You can't lose the game this turn.
Doesnt really help if you just dont lose "this" turn, as you will still die next turn with 0 life.
However, beside that its pretty bad as it is, compared to Solitary Confinment its a lot weaker and mana cost is higher and you still need mana to use it and cards, so theirs much that dont work for this card, beside that the ability will even give you an additional drawback.
Cards like that can be like Worship, so theirs something that keeps you alive your opponent can "fight" (cards in hand are hard to fight for most players) and Solitary Confinment fixes itself with the skip and discard combined (even if its still powerfull with Genesis, Squee, LifeFromtheLoam and such recurrsion cards).
So to fix the card, it might be best to look for Worship and fix it to a Platinum Angelgrace.
Isolation :2mana::symw:
Enchantment
:2mana::symw:, Return three creatures you control to its owners hand: You can't lose the game until your next turn ends.
So it will protect you as long as you can play 3 creatures and pay its activation cost, but as long as your creatures have shroud or protection and are cheap enough to cast you have something to play with and it might be a nice card even if you dont need the Angels Grace, just to get your creatures back in combat, to replay them or to get some Auras away (Pacifismn and the like), which all in all make this card a nice rare to have and more easy to fight than a Worship (which is a pain if you play red and face a Silver Knight).
Important for this card is to keep it on a single white, so players are not forced to have heavy white for it (simply because the effect can be played nice in many different colors).
For the main idea to give cards more "costs":
I think that is really not needed. Pretty much every cost can easy be done in the effect as an part of it. It just makes sence if its important to keep the card from going nuts (look for the -1/-1 counters in the exhaustion cycle in shadowmoor) and most things are removed from costs, especially if they are things that you dont "really own", it should allways be something you have and offer as a cost, so not skipping something is a bad cost, its better a part of the effect.
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"As long as you've played an activated ability of ~ this turn, you can't play spells or activated abilities except for mana abilities."
However, I can't imagine why you'd want to do such a thing.
Additionally, cards that repeatedly stop you from losing can create really boring games. This is why they should and usually do have some kind of offensive value, eg. Platinum Angel is also a 4/4 flyer and not just an indestructible non-creature annoyance. Alternately, they should at least have some kind of loophole, like the fact that Worship only stops damage and only works if you control a creature. Solitary Confinement shows that WOTC does sometimes make cards like this on very rare occasions, but I can't say I think it's a good idea...I guess they're just throwing a bone to "Griefer Timmy"
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