Scry 1 is a nice bonus that doesn't make Lost in the Labyrinth playable. Scry 3+ is very powerful. Read the Bones makes me excited for black- it's good.
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Lost laberynth is a worse fog and the scry doesnt make it playable, scry only bumps the card's power a tad especially if you dont draw off it or anything. Scry 2 + is different. On the other side, Magma Jet and Read the bones should be high picks.
Lost is close enough to a passable trick that I wouldn't count it out just yet. Being usable as a 1-mana emergency Heroic enabler may be worth something. Additionally, it wouldn't surprise me to see a Burning Vengeance-esqe card for scry.
Read the Bones looks like it will be really, really good. It digs as deep as Opportunity at half the cost and at common.
Voyage's End is decent. Nowhere near as exciting as the first two, but it could be a mid-pick card. We're currently paying 2 for Disperse in M14 and it's not awful. So, Disperse with a slight upside is decent.
Witches' Eye seems like fringe 20-23rd material. Some of it will depend on how slow the format is. In a board stall, it would be nice to be scrying every turn while they're purely topdecking. It's somewhat akin to Into the Wilds, which is a decent play. Technically, Into the Wilds leads to card advantage though, unlike Witches' Eye. But, basically both are primarily boosting your card quality drawn per turn more than anything. Some people have noted that you could scry on your turn, re-equip, scry on their turn. But really, if you have the luxury of being able to swap the Eye around your creatures without comprising your blocking position, there should be better things for you to be doing.
Scrying two or more is generally very good. Still one of the reasons to play card draw spells is to consistently make land drops which scry doesn't help much with. Its more of a bonus on most things. I would assume magma jet will likely be a high pick as its costed so efficiently.
I think it's weird to see you all discussing the difference between scry 1 and scry 2 when the only previous use of scry 1 as a rider was on New Benalia. It's clearly worse than scry 2, but it seems hard to say precisely how much worse without playing with them.
My guess is that Lost in the Labyrinth is bad but playable, Voyage's End is better but still not that good, and Witch's Eye will vary dramatically with format speed.
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I primarily play limited, so most of my spoiler season comments view cards through that lens.
Scry isn't at the same power level on every card, and it's often wrong to evaluate it in a vacuum. Here are some occasions on which it is more valuable:
1. You're either curving out with this spell or using it to stay alive while you find a land drop. Ex: Magma Jet
2. You have a massive bomb, combo, or series of plays you feel you absolutely need in order to win. Ex: Viscera Seer
3. You can immediately draw the cards you just scryed and can afford to use them to solve a problem. Ex: Preordain, Opt
4. You're scrying for at least 2, or over an extended period of time. Ex: Crystal Ball
5. You're either splashing a color or running more than two.
My guess is that Lost in the Labyrinth is bad but playable, Voyage's End is better but still not that good, and Witch's Eye will vary dramatically with format speed.
Agreed. The first two are cards you can use to help survive while you search, but they cost you a card to do so. And with so many powerful rares so far, format speed will indeed indicate whether the Eye is a worthy search mechanism for them (we haven't seen much removal yet). I think Voyage's End will be picked higher than usual if only to be used to remove auras.
I might add that the benefit of Scry increases exponentially. Scry 1 is "this, or what's in the box?" which is nice. Scry >1 has the added benefit of allowing you to choose in what order you want to draw your cards.. adding, of course, the option to ship 'em without putting yourself closer to decking. This allows you to plan your next few turns reasonably well, and rewards better players with the ability to have more complex plans.
Y'all are right, it's early to call Lost in the Labyrinth unplayable, but unless some crazy synergy develops, that's still where I'd put my money.
Also, scry is a weird word. Scry. Scccry.
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My thoughts exactly. Shall henceforth be named "Scry Augur" in my book. Very nice card. Dare I say, she's probably better in limited than Augur of Bolas
Scry is likely to be consistently underrated. Lost in a Labyrinth, for example, I'm pretty sure is maindeckable.
There are most likely going to be a lot of expensive things in Theros what with Bestow costs and Monstrosity costs, so most decks will want to run a lot of mana sources. That's going to make Scry very useful in a lot of decks as a way to find mana when you need it and draw spells once you have your mana.
The format is presumably slow enough for Witches' Eye to be playable. I say "presumably" because the implication from Bestow and Monstrosity costs is that reaching seven or even eight mana is realistic. The card could even be quite strong in some decks. I can imagine a turn like: "Cast Witches' Eye, equip, scry, equip, end of your turn scry again", then you're scrying twice each turn until you find something better to do with your mana. In the right situation that's almost like drawing three cards per turn!
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There are most likely going to be a lot of expensive things in Theros what with Bestow costs and Monstrosity costs, so most decks will want to run a lot of mana sources. That's going to make Scry very useful in a lot of decks as a way to find mana when you need it and draw spells once you have your mana.
I think you have it precisely backwards.
Imagine you're in the lategame and you have 5-6 mana and some bestow cards in hand and/or monstrosity cards on the battlefield. If you draw a spell, great โ you have a spell to play. But if you draw a land, also great โ you're 1 mana closer to being able to pay the expensive bestow/monstrosity costs. In other words, you have no dead draws.
Scry will still be valuable because all your draws won't be equally good. But it's at its best when it's turning dead draws into live draws, not turning good draws into better draws.
The format is presumably slow enough for Witches' Eye to be playable. I say "presumably" because the implication from Bestow and Monstrosity costs is that reaching seven or even eight mana is realistic.
Is it ever not?
Even in hyper-fast Gatecrash, the 7-mana primordials saw lots of play.
The advantage of bestow/monstrosity is that they're not dead cards below 7-8 mana, so you can play a bunch of them even if you don't expect to be able to hit 7-8 mana regularly. They're passable early-midgame drops which turn mana flood from something which loses you the game to something that's not all that bad.
For me the operative question will be "Is Scry 1 worth a card?" Because Lost in a Labyrinth for example would not be playable without Scry 1 (it's worse than Downsize without Overload, and Downsize was never good) so how much value does Scry 1 add to the card?
For anyone who hasn't played with Scry before, I will echo some of what I've heard above that you can think of Scry 2 as "Draw a card" for value purposes, and repeatable Scry is very powerful.
Scry will still be valuable because all your draws won't be equally good. But it's at its best when it's turning dead draws into live draws, not turning good draws into better draws.
I would basically consider Scry to be equivalent to looting (I suppose slightly worse but very similar) and I agree with you here that with really expensive effects like Monstrosity and the Bestow enchant costs, you're going to actually WANT to have a lot of lands, and Scry is best when it is scrying those away. In this case it is much much worse than drawing a card (whereas in Zendikar it would be very good because you would want to go to 5 mana and then just stop drawing lands).
Scry will still be valuable because all your draws won't be equally good. But it's at its best when it's turning dead draws into live draws, not turning good draws into better draws.
Agree with you here
Is it ever not?
Even in hyper-fast Gatecrash, the 7-mana primordials saw lots of play.
Here, however, you lost me. It took a pretty specific deck in Gatecrash to consistently stretch the game until you had 7 lands. Thus the Primordials (which in a normal format would be complete bombs) were mid to late pack picks. Not unplayable by any means - but I don't know about "lots of play."
Anyways, as to the OP's question, I want to get a better feel for the format before I am at all sure about how to value scry. In general, it looks like the devs are valuing scry 2 at about one mana.
My thoughts exactly. Shall henceforth be named "Scry Augur" in my book. Very nice card. Dare I say, she's probably better in limited than Augur of Bolas
easily better. auger is better when you can build a deck with lots of instants/sorceries, and in limited that doesn't always happen.
scry is always going to be worth your while no matter what deck it goes in for limited. easy victory.
Here, however, you lost me. It took a pretty specific deck in Gatecrash to consistently stretch the game until you had 7 lands. Thus the Primordials (which in a normal format would be complete bombs) were mid to late pack picks. Not unplayable by any means - but I don't know about "lots of play."
Anyways, as to the OP's question, I want to get a better feel for the format before I am at all sure about how to value scry. In general, it looks like the devs are valuing scry 2 at about one mana.
I have to agree. In sealed, you could typically get away with primordials. Outside of a single draft in which I was able to assemble what was essentially a ramp deck with a bunch of seven drops, nearly every primordial I ever drafted ended up as a sideboard card against the extort deck.
For me the operative question will be "Is Scry 1 worth a card?" Because Lost in a Labyrinth for example would not be playable without Scry 1 (it's worse than Downsize without Overload, and Downsize was never good) so how much value does Scry 1 add to the card?
For anyone who hasn't played with Scry before, I will echo some of what I've heard above that you can think of Scry 2 as "Draw a card" for value purposes, and repeatable Scry is very powerful.
Lost in a labyrinth seems like it's best as a heroic enabler, with some small amount of the time being a decent combat trick with upside. We know that there will be gorgons; I think we can expect a decent amount of cards with deathtouch.
How much is Scry 1 worth? Does it suddenly make Lost in the Labyrinth worth drafting?
In my eyes, Read the Bones looks awesome, but am I overvaluing it?
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I think it is a little early to call this a consensus. Let all opinions be heard.
Edit: on a more serious side. I think of scry 1 as half a looting, Scry 3 is about a looting in my opinion.
Read the Bones looks like it will be really, really good. It digs as deep as Opportunity at half the cost and at common.
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Voyage's End is decent. Nowhere near as exciting as the first two, but it could be a mid-pick card. We're currently paying 2 for Disperse in M14 and it's not awful. So, Disperse with a slight upside is decent.
Witches' Eye seems like fringe 20-23rd material. Some of it will depend on how slow the format is. In a board stall, it would be nice to be scrying every turn while they're purely topdecking. It's somewhat akin to Into the Wilds, which is a decent play. Technically, Into the Wilds leads to card advantage though, unlike Witches' Eye. But, basically both are primarily boosting your card quality drawn per turn more than anything. Some people have noted that you could scry on your turn, re-equip, scry on their turn. But really, if you have the luxury of being able to swap the Eye around your creatures without comprising your blocking position, there should be better things for you to be doing.
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My guess is that Lost in the Labyrinth is bad but playable, Voyage's End is better but still not that good, and Witch's Eye will vary dramatically with format speed.
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1. You're either curving out with this spell or using it to stay alive while you find a land drop. Ex: Magma Jet
2. You have a massive bomb, combo, or series of plays you feel you absolutely need in order to win. Ex: Viscera Seer
3. You can immediately draw the cards you just scryed and can afford to use them to solve a problem. Ex: Preordain, Opt
4. You're scrying for at least 2, or over an extended period of time. Ex: Crystal Ball
5. You're either splashing a color or running more than two.
Agreed. The first two are cards you can use to help survive while you search, but they cost you a card to do so. And with so many powerful rares so far, format speed will indeed indicate whether the Eye is a worthy search mechanism for them (we haven't seen much removal yet). I think Voyage's End will be picked higher than usual if only to be used to remove auras.
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Y'all are right, it's early to call Lost in the Labyrinth unplayable, but unless some crazy synergy develops, that's still where I'd put my money.
Also, scry is a weird word. Scry. Scccry.
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My thoughts exactly. Shall henceforth be named "Scry Augur" in my book. Very nice card. Dare I say, she's probably better in limited than Augur of Bolas
There are most likely going to be a lot of expensive things in Theros what with Bestow costs and Monstrosity costs, so most decks will want to run a lot of mana sources. That's going to make Scry very useful in a lot of decks as a way to find mana when you need it and draw spells once you have your mana.
The format is presumably slow enough for Witches' Eye to be playable. I say "presumably" because the implication from Bestow and Monstrosity costs is that reaching seven or even eight mana is realistic. The card could even be quite strong in some decks. I can imagine a turn like: "Cast Witches' Eye, equip, scry, equip, end of your turn scry again", then you're scrying twice each turn until you find something better to do with your mana. In the right situation that's almost like drawing three cards per turn!
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I think you have it precisely backwards.
Imagine you're in the lategame and you have 5-6 mana and some bestow cards in hand and/or monstrosity cards on the battlefield. If you draw a spell, great โ you have a spell to play. But if you draw a land, also great โ you're 1 mana closer to being able to pay the expensive bestow/monstrosity costs. In other words, you have no dead draws.
Scry will still be valuable because all your draws won't be equally good. But it's at its best when it's turning dead draws into live draws, not turning good draws into better draws.
Is it ever not?
Even in hyper-fast Gatecrash, the 7-mana primordials saw lots of play.
The advantage of bestow/monstrosity is that they're not dead cards below 7-8 mana, so you can play a bunch of them even if you don't expect to be able to hit 7-8 mana regularly. They're passable early-midgame drops which turn mana flood from something which loses you the game to something that's not all that bad.
Practice for Khans of Tarkir Limited:
Draft: (#1) (#2) (#3) (#4) (#5)
For anyone who hasn't played with Scry before, I will echo some of what I've heard above that you can think of Scry 2 as "Draw a card" for value purposes, and repeatable Scry is very powerful.
I would basically consider Scry to be equivalent to looting (I suppose slightly worse but very similar) and I agree with you here that with really expensive effects like Monstrosity and the Bestow enchant costs, you're going to actually WANT to have a lot of lands, and Scry is best when it is scrying those away. In this case it is much much worse than drawing a card (whereas in Zendikar it would be very good because you would want to go to 5 mana and then just stop drawing lands).
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Agree with you here
Here, however, you lost me. It took a pretty specific deck in Gatecrash to consistently stretch the game until you had 7 lands. Thus the Primordials (which in a normal format would be complete bombs) were mid to late pack picks. Not unplayable by any means - but I don't know about "lots of play."
Anyways, as to the OP's question, I want to get a better feel for the format before I am at all sure about how to value scry. In general, it looks like the devs are valuing scry 2 at about one mana.
easily better. auger is better when you can build a deck with lots of instants/sorceries, and in limited that doesn't always happen.
scry is always going to be worth your while no matter what deck it goes in for limited. easy victory.
I have to agree. In sealed, you could typically get away with primordials. Outside of a single draft in which I was able to assemble what was essentially a ramp deck with a bunch of seven drops, nearly every primordial I ever drafted ended up as a sideboard card against the extort deck.
*DCI Rules Advisor*
Agreed. I've played Fleeting Distraction enough times to at least look at this.