I never was a big fan of drafting tribal. Most people look at this set and only see that. I see some non tribal synergy I wanted to point out.
Ambush Viper probably the best common of the set and has great synergy with Skeletal Grimace that can come on line turn 3 Typhoid Rats and Skeletal Grimace accomplish the same thing and can come out really early T2! Probably well before it is needed. Here is the best part all 3 cards are already pretty undervalued.
This would be a good place to post some synergy with commons and uncommon that are not tribal.
The Viper is fine, but I will likely find myself avoiding Skeletal Grimace completely. It just doesn't do enough as an aura. The +2/+2 and flying one seems insane, as it makes anything into an Air Elemental, while Grimace doesn't really make anything more menacing or aggressive.
The 1/1 Deathtouch guy looks like he'll be at best a sideboard option against huge Werewolves and not a card I'll want to maindeck.
The Viper, on the other hand, looks like it'll work best as a green removal spell of sorts. Running him out there and plopping Grimace onto him basically sacrifices some of his versatility for relatively minimal gain.
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Ambush Viper isn't the best common in the set, it doesn't do enough and is too easily answered.
Adding Skeletal Grimace does make a scary creature for your opponent to fight, if he has only creatures and no way to interact with your board.
As much as this sort of is tribal (but also not), milling yourself is going to be a very profitable strategy. Turn 2 Deranged Assistant is a legitimately scary play, as it could lead into turn 3 Makeshift Mauler or Stitched Drake.
Also, there is a high density of graveyard recursion in this set (though a lot of it is random), so you can get value using many different cards.
"relatively minimal gain" - he is a cheap efficient death touch that will get regenerate the enchantment stays with him when he regenerates FYI
Spectral Flight is the enchantment you were thinking and yes that is good.
Yeah, but he might push you into a slow start if you're always hanging onto the 1 land to regenerate him. He could be an easy 241 for your opponent. Maybe 3rd turn when you have a land untapped. Also, deathtouch tends to be a defensive ability. I want aggression in limited.
I think Semantics' point wasn't that a 3/2 deathtouch regen dude isn't good, but that needing to use two cards in two different colors may not be the best thing ever. Aside from the enormous amount of enchantment kill, most of the colors have a few common solutions that will net at least a 1-for-1 plus tempo gain. Not to mention you're pigeonholing yourself into primarily a defensive position with such a combo. If agro, a 2 card 3 power unblockable dude isn't particularly remarkable.
I mean, if we just attach auras to creatures that happen to play well with them, I'd rather have Markov Patrician with Spectral Flight any day of the week.
The Viper is fine, but I will likely find myself avoiding Skeletal Grimace completely. It just doesn't do enough as an aura. The +2/+2 and flying one seems insane, as it makes anything into an Air Elemental, while Grimace doesn't really make anything more menacing or aggressive.
The 1/1 Deathtouch guy looks like he'll be at best a sideboard option against huge Werewolves and not a card I'll want to maindeck.
The Viper, on the other hand, looks like it'll work best as a green removal spell of sorts. Running him out there and plopping Grimace onto him basically sacrifices some of his versatility for relatively minimal gain.
yeah - continuing in the vein we've seen in M12 of playable auras, spectral flight should be quite the beating!
I disagree that it limits you to a defensive stance. It is a "a scary creature for your opponent to fight." I feel that it puts pressure early board and allows you to not over extend. I am not like gonna fight this to the grave or anything I don't even feel al that strongly about it I just want a place to discus things like it and Markov Patrician with Spectral Flight is a nice interaction as well!
Yes there are solutions to enchantments but would they be in any decks main?
Here's the thing, no one is saying that your combos aren't strong when assembled, they're merely saying that for the cards and mana you spent (assuming you draw both pieces), the combo is a little too vulnerable.
Each of the creatures you suggested die to weighted down (the -2/-2 enchantment) one you've put the enchantment on them, and there is also the flashback bounce spell (which will see a lot of play).
I have scene pretty good success with this strategy in the past of looking for cards that will draft low and do pretty sick things together. having them valued lower increases the chance of me seeing 2 or 3 of each passed around.
Here is an M12 example. Act of Treason + Smallpox, Devouring Swarm
I have used this strategy a few times
4AOT, 2Pox, 3 Dev Swarm
5AOT, 1Pox, 4 Dev Swarm
3AOT, 3 Dev Swarm
Albus, that "combo" is very different than the one you're suggesting for innistrad. The M12 combo you speak of is good because it turns your Act of Treason into a permanent removal spell, it takes one turn, and there isn't much your opponent can do about it (short of killing your swarm). This combo has immediate effect, and once you've resolved it the first time, it has served its purpose.
The combo you suggest for innistrad, on the other hand, requires your fragile creature (before the enchantment is on it) survive to get enchanted, then survive while it is in play (and not get bounced). It also does nothing to stop or interact with fliers.
I have scene pretty good success with this strategy in the past of looking for cards that will draft low and do pretty sick things together. having them valued lower increases the chance of me seeing 2 or 3 of each passed around.
Here is an M12 example. Act of Treason + Smallpox, Devouring Swarm
I have used this strategy a few times
4AOT, 2Pox, 3 Dev Swarm
5AOT, 1Pox, 4 Dev Swarm
3AOT, 3 Dev Swarm
This is a very well known combo that everyone in RB will look for in m12, but I don't know how you can expect 5 AOT and 4 Dev Swarm to be opened and passed to you in a draft (where avg number of each common opened is 2.2), especially since neither is that bad of a card by itself and should not be wheeling that far.
I think a mistake that some players make is confusing synergy with power. Synergy just means cards work well together. Merfolk Looter and Jace's Erasure have synergy, as the Looter doubles the speed of the Erasure. Same goes for Act of Treason and Devouring Swarm, although the latter combo is more relevant in the format.
The problem, however, is that neither of those synergies is all that strong in M12 limited. I'll disregard the mill synergy from here on out, as milling is a niche strategy, but the rest is true for the Act of Treason/Devouring Swarm synergy. The cards fit together like velcro, but the effect you get it not really very powerful. This circumstance is only really ideal if both cards are powerful on their own, and Act of Treason is pretty underwhelming on its own.
The point is that two cards for one effect had better be powerful for it to be worth waiting to assemble it and potentially losing card and/or tempo advantage to achieve the desired result. At best, the Act/Swarm combo is a 1-for-1 removal spell, and a slow one in a format with much, much better options. In fact, I would say that a deck with 4 Swarms and 4 Acts would be pretty poor in M12 limited, as 8 of your spell slots are taken up with generally mediocre cards. RB has much, much more to offer.
Be careful not to immediately think that 2 cards working together is very powerful. It had better be better than either of the cards individually, but if you use 2 cards for it, and given that each card is usually not amazing on its own in these combos, you need the resulting effect to be significantly better than either card on its own. None of the combos presented here so far do that.
Private Mod Note
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Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Providing a plethora of pompous and pedantic postings here since 2009.
:dance:Fact or Fiction of the [Limited] Clan:dance:
Signalling is like farting: it's a natural thing that helps people avoid being where you are, and if you try to do it deliberately, things turn to crap fast.
Quote from Hardened »
I hereby found the American Chapter of the Zealots of Semantics. All glory to The Curmudgeon.
I think Skeletal Grimace is pretty playable on its own, actually. There's not so much reason to put it on a deathtouch creature for the "Nyanyanya you can't attack me" factor, but putting it on a creature with high power and low toughness turns your Markov Patrician or Crossway Vampire into a real threat. It's also nice for fighting: regen your creature and then Prey Upon for extra value. Trollhide is a good card, and this is, while not AS good, still going to enable a lot of the same beatings.
(As an aside, a deck with 4 Act of Treasons and 4 Devouring Swarms has a pretty good start towards being fairly dominating. Act of Treason in that case is a lot more than just a removal spell; since you get to remove their blockers PLUS do damage equal to their power. a 3 mana spell that says destroy target creature unconditionally and do 3 damage to its controller is never going to be not worth it.)
Wit's End is the PERFECT answer to your opponent's Monomania however.
Just hold on to your Wit's End when they Monomania, so you can Wit's End them on your next turn!!!
I think this is fairly reminiscent of the "Jace Battles" we have seen in past standards.. My guess is we will soon witness the great Monomania-Wit's End battles.
PuddleJumper Thanks for the support and very well argued points I may add. I think you make good points in reguards to Markov Patrician or Crossway Vampire.
How about traitorous blood and stitcher's appretince? that's actually pretty filthy.
ACTUALLY** I've been looking through the set, and Red/Blue/Black have a surprisingly high number of cards that let you sacrifice things for value (appretince, skirkgad high priest, the +4/+2 equipment). Taitorous Blood might just be very good in most decks.
haha so this whole time i was so dumb looking for a new interaction when the M12 one was here all along. The double R makes it a bit tricky to go 3 colors...
I think a mistake that some players make is confusing synergy with power. Synergy just means cards work well together. Merfolk Looter and Jace's Erasure have synergy, as the Looter doubles the speed of the Erasure. Same goes for Act of Treason and Devouring Swarm, although the latter combo is more relevant in the format.
The problem, however, is that neither of those synergies is all that strong in M12 limited. I'll disregard the mill synergy from here on out, as milling is a niche strategy, but the rest is true for the Act of Treason/Devouring Swarm synergy. The cards fit together like velcro, but the effect you get it not really very powerful. This circumstance is only really ideal if both cards are powerful on their own, and Act of Treason is pretty underwhelming on its own.
The point is that two cards for one effect had better be powerful for it to be worth waiting to assemble it and potentially losing card and/or tempo advantage to achieve the desired result. At best, the Act/Swarm combo is a 1-for-1 removal spell, and a slow one in a format with much, much better options. In fact, I would say that a deck with 4 Swarms and 4 Acts would be pretty poor in M12 limited, as 8 of your spell slots are taken up with generally mediocre cards. RB has much, much more to offer.
Be careful not to immediately think that 2 cards working together is very powerful. It had better be better than either of the cards individually, but if you use 2 cards for it, and given that each card is usually not amazing on its own in these combos, you need the resulting effect to be significantly better than either card on its own. None of the combos presented here so far do that.
Good point. In M11, bloodthrone + act was a similar combo, but it was a lot better for a few reasons:
first, the format was slower, and decks were more finisher driven. Most decks wanted to land a couple of key guys, and getting their dude with act/sac was just more effective. These days, they probably have another juzam djinn or griffin waiting in the wings to take you out. The presence of more finisher driven decks was largely due to Wall of frost and horned turtle variants, which make the pikers of the world unplayable (while in M12, I think goblin piker is a perfectly defensible midpack choice).
Second of all, bloodthrone vampire was a lot easier to cast than swarm. The difference between 1B and 1BB is very, very relevant. In m11, black decks did want to be heavy black for removal considerations, but it was more than fine to play a R/B deck without too many double costed cards. In M12, however, the best red cards are quite red intensive (juzam djinn, ect), and the presence of three great common burn spells makes you want to play more mountains to be able to cast them reliably. This makes the one additional colored mana significantly worse.
The third reason it just isn't as good, is that bloodthrone was just a better overall card than swarm, because +2/+2 is much more appealing than flying. I built a lot of winning act/bloodthrone decks, because a perfectly reasonable backup plan was bloodthrone + reassembling skeleton. I can recall games where bloodthrone dealt 20 damage on its own, just through pumping it. Swarm can't really perform the same task as a finisher reliably, because it just doesn't get as big.
Altar's Reap is a 2 for 2; it isn't card advantage. It's a good card because you can sac creatures at instant speed that would die anyway, but that doesn't get you to a 3rd turn Drake, ever, really.
Ashmouth Hound doesn't have any special interaction with first strike that I see, either. Other than, hooray, my 2/1 has first strike. Which is nice, I guess.
Wit's End is the PERFECT answer to your opponent's Monomania however.
Just hold on to your Wit's End when they Monomania, so you can Wit's End them on your next turn!!!
I think this is fairly reminiscent of the "Jace Battles" we have seen in past standards.. My guess is we will soon witness the great Monomania-Wit's End battles.
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Ambush Viper probably the best common of the set and has great synergy with Skeletal Grimace that can come on line turn 3
Typhoid Rats and Skeletal Grimace accomplish the same thing and can come out really early T2! Probably well before it is needed. Here is the best part all 3 cards are already pretty undervalued.
This would be a good place to post some synergy with commons and uncommon that are not tribal.
The 1/1 Deathtouch guy looks like he'll be at best a sideboard option against huge Werewolves and not a card I'll want to maindeck.
The Viper, on the other hand, looks like it'll work best as a green removal spell of sorts. Running him out there and plopping Grimace onto him basically sacrifices some of his versatility for relatively minimal gain.
:dance:Fact or Fiction of the [Limited] Clan:dance:
Adding Skeletal Grimace does make a scary creature for your opponent to fight, if he has only creatures and no way to interact with your board.
As much as this sort of is tribal (but also not), milling yourself is going to be a very profitable strategy. Turn 2 Deranged Assistant is a legitimately scary play, as it could lead into turn 3 Makeshift Mauler or Stitched Drake.
Also, there is a high density of graveyard recursion in this set (though a lot of it is random), so you can get value using many different cards.
Spectral Flight is the enchantment you were thinking and yes that is good.
Yeah, but he might push you into a slow start if you're always hanging onto the 1 land to regenerate him. He could be an easy 241 for your opponent. Maybe 3rd turn when you have a land untapped. Also, deathtouch tends to be a defensive ability. I want aggression in limited.
I mean, if we just attach auras to creatures that happen to play well with them, I'd rather have Markov Patrician with Spectral Flight any day of the week.
yeah - continuing in the vein we've seen in M12 of playable auras, spectral flight should be quite the beating!
*DCI Rules Advisor*
Yes there are solutions to enchantments but would they be in any decks main?
Yes they will, with this many curses and regular enchantments they will be main decking enchantment removal
Each of the creatures you suggested die to weighted down (the -2/-2 enchantment) one you've put the enchantment on them, and there is also the flashback bounce spell (which will see a lot of play).
Here is an M12 example. Act of Treason + Smallpox, Devouring Swarm
I have used this strategy a few times
4AOT, 2Pox, 3 Dev Swarm
5AOT, 1Pox, 4 Dev Swarm
3AOT, 3 Dev Swarm
The combo you suggest for innistrad, on the other hand, requires your fragile creature (before the enchantment is on it) survive to get enchanted, then survive while it is in play (and not get bounced). It also does nothing to stop or interact with fliers.
This is a very well known combo that everyone in RB will look for in m12, but I don't know how you can expect 5 AOT and 4 Dev Swarm to be opened and passed to you in a draft (where avg number of each common opened is 2.2), especially since neither is that bad of a card by itself and should not be wheeling that far.
The problem, however, is that neither of those synergies is all that strong in M12 limited. I'll disregard the mill synergy from here on out, as milling is a niche strategy, but the rest is true for the Act of Treason/Devouring Swarm synergy. The cards fit together like velcro, but the effect you get it not really very powerful. This circumstance is only really ideal if both cards are powerful on their own, and Act of Treason is pretty underwhelming on its own.
The point is that two cards for one effect had better be powerful for it to be worth waiting to assemble it and potentially losing card and/or tempo advantage to achieve the desired result. At best, the Act/Swarm combo is a 1-for-1 removal spell, and a slow one in a format with much, much better options. In fact, I would say that a deck with 4 Swarms and 4 Acts would be pretty poor in M12 limited, as 8 of your spell slots are taken up with generally mediocre cards. RB has much, much more to offer.
Be careful not to immediately think that 2 cards working together is very powerful. It had better be better than either of the cards individually, but if you use 2 cards for it, and given that each card is usually not amazing on its own in these combos, you need the resulting effect to be significantly better than either card on its own. None of the combos presented here so far do that.
:dance:Fact or Fiction of the [Limited] Clan:dance:
The earlier we catch on to these the better. Week one that combo was relatively unkown and was sick.
(As an aside, a deck with 4 Act of Treasons and 4 Devouring Swarms has a pretty good start towards being fairly dominating. Act of Treason in that case is a lot more than just a removal spell; since you get to remove their blockers PLUS do damage equal to their power. a 3 mana spell that says destroy target creature unconditionally and do 3 damage to its controller is never going to be not worth it.)
ACTUALLY** I've been looking through the set, and Red/Blue/Black have a surprisingly high number of cards that let you sacrifice things for value (appretince, skirkgad high priest, the +4/+2 equipment). Taitorous Blood might just be very good in most decks.
Good point. In M11, bloodthrone + act was a similar combo, but it was a lot better for a few reasons:
first, the format was slower, and decks were more finisher driven. Most decks wanted to land a couple of key guys, and getting their dude with act/sac was just more effective. These days, they probably have another juzam djinn or griffin waiting in the wings to take you out. The presence of more finisher driven decks was largely due to Wall of frost and horned turtle variants, which make the pikers of the world unplayable (while in M12, I think goblin piker is a perfectly defensible midpack choice).
Second of all, bloodthrone vampire was a lot easier to cast than swarm. The difference between 1B and 1BB is very, very relevant. In m11, black decks did want to be heavy black for removal considerations, but it was more than fine to play a R/B deck without too many double costed cards. In M12, however, the best red cards are quite red intensive (juzam djinn, ect), and the presence of three great common burn spells makes you want to play more mountains to be able to cast them reliably. This makes the one additional colored mana significantly worse.
The third reason it just isn't as good, is that bloodthrone was just a better overall card than swarm, because +2/+2 is much more appealing than flying. I built a lot of winning act/bloodthrone decks, because a perfectly reasonable backup plan was bloodthrone + reassembling skeleton. I can recall games where bloodthrone dealt 20 damage on its own, just through pumping it. Swarm can't really perform the same task as a finisher reliably, because it just doesn't get as big.
*DCI Rules Advisor*
Ashmouth Hound + Sharpened Pitchfork (Nice 3rd Turn - Agro Combo)
Ashmouth Hound doesn't have any special interaction with first strike that I see, either. Other than, hooray, my 2/1 has first strike. Which is nice, I guess.