I got thinking about this because it seems like a lot of good players, like people on this board or pros (*cough*LSV*cough*) seem to really favor blue because it's considered a thinking man's color by design. By contrast, does that make green a dumb color? It's an enemy color, and its strength is making big dumb dudes who bash face. When you read Mark Rosewater's stuff, he says the design of green is primal by nature, but on the flip side, it's easily tricked. From a gaming perspective, green tends to not have removal unless it's for artifacts or fliers, which in theory makes it a more simple, straightforward color to play.
I'll be honest, I do kind of consider green as a dumb color, and would rather play blue because I think it gives me more possibilities and more interesting ways to win. I actually think I may subliminally avoid green unless it looks really open.
For instance, in Scars, Green has many surprises lurking in its color (Untamed Might, Tel-Jilad Defiance, Withstand Death, Slice in Twain) as well as cards that add complexity to the board (Sylvok Replica, Tangle Angler) while Blue has at best mediocre and predictable ones (two 3 mana counters, untap Jump, About Face 3.0, Cetarch).
Green does frequently gain little in terms of its cards when in the hands of a pro. Craw Wurms are Craw Wurms. That means that blue cards that are as strong as Craw Wurm (note: he's not that strong) can go later than Craw Wurm because people are unable to use them properly, and thus undervalue them. While they overvalue Craw Wurm because he's simple to use and thus is comparatively better than the complex card in the hands of an inexperienced or unskilled player. At the end of the day, you tap 6 for him, and he either attacks or blocks, whereas Unsummon leads to a myriad of plays unfolding before you.
This does have a strong impact on the new core sets, btw. Because Green mechanics are so 'simple' and red mechanics so 'obnoxious' they somewhat deliberately underpower them in core sets, notably both M10 and M11 (an actual powerful burn deck frequently feels "OP" to new limited players, whose slower and less consistent decks just fall apart in the face of the red menace. A powerful UB deck, on the other hand, may have just as much control of the course of the game, and win just as surely, but they don't feel that they lost "before they could play their cards"). Note that M10 Green was partially rescued by the fact that Overrun was an Uncommon, but frequently this just turned into "draft/draw overrun or die."
However, outside of core sets, it truly is the land of anything goes.
If this forum had Greasers, Phoenix, Commons and Semantics would be the leaders of the gang and every time they commented on something they would do a synchronized finger snap then smoke a cigarette.
personally i think its kinda "n00b" to make summary judgments over an entire color. its "pro" to evaluate the context of each color within a specific limited environment and try to figure out which strategies are available and how to best implement each one.
in Scars of Mirrodin i like green quite a bit. its very strong in infect and has an interesting secondary archetype available with the Alpha Tyrannax plan. its also got some nice tricks (Untamed Might, Tel Jilad Defiance, Withstand Death) and one of the only straight card advantage effects in the format (Horizon Spellbomb).
Blue is often favored by Pros because it creates more decision points than any other color. The more decision points, the more opportunities for mistakes, and on average a Pro is going to make fewer mistakes. So basically they're drawing the game out until you hang yourself.
Contrast with Red or Green which usually want to just end the game quickly. That's not a long term strategy. Often you either win or lose based on how the first 4 or 5 turns go. That doesn't give the better player much opportunity to establish a "thinking man's" advantage.
in Scars of Mirrodin i like green quite a bit. its very strong in infect and has an interesting secondary archetype available with the Alpha Tyrannax plan. its also got some nice tricks (Untamed Might, Tel Jilad Defiance, Withstand Death) and one of the only straight card advantage effects in the format (Horizon Spellbomb).
yeah, I just 4-0'd with a deck that had red and white early removal, followed by dinosaurs they couldn't handle. It was super fun, consistent, and powerful. Also, no one has mentioned acid web spider. That card is amazing.
Matignon said he'd P1P1 Molder Beast over both Arc Trail and Koth of the Hammer.
interesting.
thats almost definitely got to do with forcing a specific archetype then it does with pure card quality though. but yeah, it does speak to the power of Molder Beast (and the archetype it drives) that you might actually think about making a pick like that.
Well that answers the title question of this thread.
I also think the current World Champion and possible Player of the Year is a noob.
No, he had a strategy, and he implemented it perfectly (one can assume, judging from his result). He went 6-0 in limited.
In Rise of the Eldrazi limited, I'd easily pick a Halimar Wavewatch P1P1 over Deathless Angel. I would not touch white with a twenty meter long stick in that format, and I guess Matignon feels the same about red in Scars. Not that I necessarily agree with him, but that's how it is.
Green is actually quite powerful in this set IMO. It's pretty hard for most creatures to deal with cards like alpha tyrannax and engulfing slagwurm. Green also has some nice card advantage in the form of acid web spider and horizon spellbomb. Plus green has the best replica so I am never disappointed when I play green.
It's not about whether green or blue or red is more powerful. It's about which color requires more strategy and thought to play optimally, and in what situations that might be true, or if the whole paradigm even makes sense. Abstract power level is completely not relevant.
Pros will play the best cards to win, but that doesn't rule out that some pros might enjoy the game more when the best cards also require the best skill to win.
Pros will play the best cards to win, but that doesn't rule out that some pros might enjoy the game more when the best cards also require the best skill to win.
The reasons top players like Blue are pretty much the same reasons they seem to overvalue removal - both generate lots of choices.
I've had more success with G/R than any other colour combination in SoM, but I'd be the first to admit that half the hands are just autopilot after the mulligan decision. Myr -> something -> Molder Beats -> Alpha Tyrannax then cross your fingers and hope they don't play something broken that you don't have removal for.
The worse you are, the less you want choices. The better you are, the more you want choices.
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Yet we have a thread split down the middle taking Arc Trail over Precursor Golem
I take nothing from Matignon's assessment here. It had to be a table specific strategy.
Yeah -- it seems like something this is going to work well on the pro tour, but I don't think we can really follow the advice.
I just got to the finals on MODO with the molder beast deck, which was pretty good - ended up losing to UW control which was basically just a better version of my slow green deck. Overall, though, I thought molder beast and his brethren did pretty well.
I just force drafted GR with molderbeast (splashed white with 2 white myrs for Sunblast Angel and an Arrest). That. Deck. Is. Sawce. 3-0, with tons of utility, running 1 horizon bomb, 2 panic, and 1 white spellbomb, 2 Furnace Celeb, 2 Sylvok Replicas. It was amazing.
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I'll be honest, I do kind of consider green as a dumb color, and would rather play blue because I think it gives me more possibilities and more interesting ways to win. I actually think I may subliminally avoid green unless it looks really open.
So, what do you guys think?
Depends on the set.
For instance, in Scars, Green has many surprises lurking in its color (Untamed Might, Tel-Jilad Defiance, Withstand Death, Slice in Twain) as well as cards that add complexity to the board (Sylvok Replica, Tangle Angler) while Blue has at best mediocre and predictable ones (two 3 mana counters, untap Jump, About Face 3.0, Cetarch).
Green does frequently gain little in terms of its cards when in the hands of a pro. Craw Wurms are Craw Wurms. That means that blue cards that are as strong as Craw Wurm (note: he's not that strong) can go later than Craw Wurm because people are unable to use them properly, and thus undervalue them. While they overvalue Craw Wurm because he's simple to use and thus is comparatively better than the complex card in the hands of an inexperienced or unskilled player. At the end of the day, you tap 6 for him, and he either attacks or blocks, whereas Unsummon leads to a myriad of plays unfolding before you.
This does have a strong impact on the new core sets, btw. Because Green mechanics are so 'simple' and red mechanics so 'obnoxious' they somewhat deliberately underpower them in core sets, notably both M10 and M11 (an actual powerful burn deck frequently feels "OP" to new limited players, whose slower and less consistent decks just fall apart in the face of the red menace. A powerful UB deck, on the other hand, may have just as much control of the course of the game, and win just as surely, but they don't feel that they lost "before they could play their cards"). Note that M10 Green was partially rescued by the fact that Overrun was an Uncommon, but frequently this just turned into "draft/draw overrun or die."
However, outside of core sets, it truly is the land of anything goes.
in Scars of Mirrodin i like green quite a bit. its very strong in infect and has an interesting secondary archetype available with the Alpha Tyrannax plan. its also got some nice tricks (Untamed Might, Tel Jilad Defiance, Withstand Death) and one of the only straight card advantage effects in the format (Horizon Spellbomb).
Contrast with Red or Green which usually want to just end the game quickly. That's not a long term strategy. Often you either win or lose based on how the first 4 or 5 turns go. That doesn't give the better player much opportunity to establish a "thinking man's" advantage.
yeah, I just 4-0'd with a deck that had red and white early removal, followed by dinosaurs they couldn't handle. It was super fun, consistent, and powerful. Also, no one has mentioned acid web spider. That card is amazing.
Molder Beast alone has won me plenty of games.
interesting.
thats almost definitely got to do with forcing a specific archetype then it does with pure card quality though. but yeah, it does speak to the power of Molder Beast (and the archetype it drives) that you might actually think about making a pick like that.
Well that answers the title question of this thread.
I also think the current World Champion and possible Player of the Year is a noob.
No, he had a strategy, and he implemented it perfectly (one can assume, judging from his result). He went 6-0 in limited.
In Rise of the Eldrazi limited, I'd easily pick a Halimar Wavewatch P1P1 over Deathless Angel. I would not touch white with a twenty meter long stick in that format, and I guess Matignon feels the same about red in Scars. Not that I necessarily agree with him, but that's how it is.
Yet we have a thread split down the middle taking Arc Trail over Precursor Golem
I take nothing from Matignon's assessment here. It had to be a table specific strategy.
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Brain Freeze is the coolest card ever printed.
It's not about whether green or blue or red is more powerful. It's about which color requires more strategy and thought to play optimally, and in what situations that might be true, or if the whole paradigm even makes sense. Abstract power level is completely not relevant.
Pros will play the best cards to win, but that doesn't rule out that some pros might enjoy the game more when the best cards also require the best skill to win.
The reasons top players like Blue are pretty much the same reasons they seem to overvalue removal - both generate lots of choices.
I've had more success with G/R than any other colour combination in SoM, but I'd be the first to admit that half the hands are just autopilot after the mulligan decision. Myr -> something -> Molder Beats -> Alpha Tyrannax then cross your fingers and hope they don't play something broken that you don't have removal for.
The worse you are, the less you want choices. The better you are, the more you want choices.
(I'm on on this site much anymore. If you want to get in touch it's probably best to email me: dom@heffalumps.org)
Forum Awards: Best Writer 2005, Best Limited Strategist 2005-2012
5CB PotM - June 2005, November 2005, February 2006, April 2008, May 2008, Feb 2009
MTGSalvation Articles: 1-20, plus guest appearance on MTGCast #86!
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Yeah -- it seems like something this is going to work well on the pro tour, but I don't think we can really follow the advice.
I just got to the finals on MODO with the molder beast deck, which was pretty good - ended up losing to UW control which was basically just a better version of my slow green deck. Overall, though, I thought molder beast and his brethren did pretty well.
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