2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
I'm sorry to see more people haven't signed up for this. The setup is really cool.
Maybe the site just doesn't have the player base necessary to support big specialty games anymore? There are enough players to fill a game of this size, but not when you add in the constraints of being (a) capable of handling and (b) interested in experiencing bastard design.
I'm sorry to see more people haven't signed up for this. The setup is really cool.
Maybe the site just doesn't have the player base necessary to support big specialty games anymore? There are enough players to fill a game of this size, but not when you add in the constraints of being (a) capable of handling and (b) interested in experiencing bastard design.
I'm trying to actually get my "Mafia break" in that I've been meaning to hit for like 6 months, now.
Also, we do have a Specialty and a Normal currently running.
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
I really like complex (and slightly bastardy) games like these, but I don't have time nor energy for this big games. (Not after the FF mafia from last summer that went on and on and on and rereading that thing was nightmare.)
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Also modgaming Bur setups is kind of treading down a dark path
I'm sorry to see more people haven't signed up for this. The setup is really cool.
Maybe the site just doesn't have the player base necessary to support big specialty games anymore? There are enough players to fill a game of this size, but not when you add in the constraints of being (a) capable of handling and (b) interested in experiencing bastard design.
I think people can handle big and complex games just fine. Bastard design is the concern. Players want to be able to figure out a game to some extent.
Like..you tell me, Xyre. How much more complex is this game than, say, Fiasco Corp(what I feel was your most complex setup)? Hmm, actually maybe your most complex was Ozone Underground. Same question.
I'm sorry to see more people haven't signed up for this. The setup is really cool.
Maybe the site just doesn't have the player base necessary to support big specialty games anymore? There are enough players to fill a game of this size, but not when you add in the constraints of being (a) capable of handling and (b) interested in experiencing bastard design.
I think people can handle big and complex games just fine. Bastard design is the concern. Players want to be able to figure out a game to some extent.
Like..you tell me, Xyre. How much more complex is this game than, say, Fiasco Corp(what I feel was your most complex setup)? Hmm, actually maybe your most complex was Ozone Underground. Same question.
I don't want to give away any of Tar's secrets, but in my estimation, probably more. It's definitely has more bastardy than either of those setups, unsurprisingly. (I mean, just the Mao rule totally spins one's head.) But I think this game would be really entertaining for the players and the viewers, and am sad it isn't getting any love.
(I think looking back Fiasco was more bastardy-complex than Ozone - both had mod-related mechanics, but the mod-related mechanics were more prevalent in Fiasco, and that's not to mention the replacement list shenanigans and the role that could choose when the game began. Ozone's complexity was more due to the fact that the Shutdown mechanic had never been tried before, and a lot of the vanillas only passingly resembled "normal" roles, making everything a lot more confusing for the players on a tactical level. But looking back, that setup actually was fairly "normal" - many of the neutrals are just wacky spins on normal neutrals, e.g. survivor, lyncher, cult leader.
Now, my setup for Too Many Neutrals 2, on the other hand... Let's just say Az has inspired me to push the bar. :evillaugh:)
I do enjoy watching the bar get pushed, but for myself I'm starting to come around to the idea that the bar has been pushed far enough, and it's time to sit down and work on a nice, well-aged scotch with just a handful of secret ingredients.
I'm sorry to see more people haven't signed up for this. The setup is really cool.
Maybe the site just doesn't have the player base necessary to support big specialty games anymore? There are enough players to fill a game of this size, but not when you add in the constraints of being (a) capable of handling and (b) interested in experiencing bastard design.
I think people can handle big and complex games just fine. Bastard design is the concern. Players want to be able to figure out a game to some extent.
Like..you tell me, Xyre. How much more complex is this game than, say, Fiasco Corp(what I feel was your most complex setup)? Hmm, actually maybe your most complex was Ozone Underground. Same question.
I think part of the disconnect here might actually be between you and me? Like... if you asked the questions you asked me about Blood Moon/Fiasco/Matrix/Inheritance/Ozone, I'd have given you the *exact same answer* I gave you when you asked about this game; there's a complexity threshold above which players tend to look at the shiny roles over behavior (and where scum can make outlandish claims and be believed - see GJ in ST:MU3!), and this game is almost certainly over that line.
Flavorwise, this game is along the lines of Matrix/Blood Moon/Greenwood - a bunch of characters from various places have all wound up in a strange place to play Mafia. There's quite a bit of flavor in the roles, though!
Complexity-wise, I think this game is somewhere between Fiasco and Inheritance? It's hard to say exactly, given a combination of open-ended abilities and a fair number of what Xyre would probably call plot twists, which may or may not come up in actual gameplay.
The game *is* more bastard than any of those (Fiasco is probably closest, which isn't surprising since that game played with a fair bit of the same territory, namely rules-affecting and mod stuff) - part of that is that I tend towards 2008-vintage adversarial anti-modgaming measures anyways (Axonn, Town Outsider, anyone?) and turn that up a notch for Mind Screw, part of that is the aforementioned plot twists, part of that is the secret sauce. I can promise that there are no roles that can change another player's alignment and no role that wins the game by being lynched, though!
It is *possible* to figure out what is going on with the setup in this game. It's just more difficult than usual. (Watch out for red herrings!)
I do enjoy watching the bar get pushed, but for myself I'm starting to come around to the idea that the bar has been pushed far enough, and it's time to sit down and work on a nice, well-aged scotch with just a handful of secret ingredients.
This game, though...
It's kind of funny, considering the forum we're on, that I suspect that Mafia design is running into the same issues Magic ran into about 5-6 years ago: there's a finite amount of design space, and most of it has been covered by now. One of the reasons that I've tended to look at bastard game design over the years is because two of the less-recognized areas of design space (rules-affecting abilities and [REDACTED]) really work best in a bastard environment. (The other big one is ability duration, which is what Singularity would cover if I ever ran it... there's actually quite a bit of design space there, but some of the most interesting wants a Cult.)
I suspect Mafia design overall will follow Magic's path and start to emphasize flavor over innovative mechanics. There's also probably a role going forwards for looking at old mechanics/roles, fixing them, and taking them for another spin. But this game is a blast from the past, and I've pulled out the stops.
I really like complex (and slightly bastardy) games like these, but I don't have time nor energy for this big games. (Not after the FF mafia from last summer that went on and on and on and rereading that thing was nightmare.)
I suspect this game will be less complex than FF, but then I think *Inheritance* may have been less complex than FF so...
Oh, I think there's plenty more design space that we have yet to scratch in mafia. People just need to step outside the patterns of what's been done before, on making variants of vigilante/cop/doc role X, and think about it more in the context of its core nature as a game of people deliberating together to root out liars. To concentrate on the people, the human element, and how they interact with one another.
For instance, has anyone played the board game version of mafia that came out not too long ago, called "The Resistance"? Completely similar core interactions, but very different mechanics.
Oh, I think there's plenty more design space that we have yet to scratch in mafia. People just need to step outside the patterns of what's been done before, on making variants of vigilante/cop/doc role X, and think about it more in the context of its core nature as a game of people deliberating together to root out liars. To concentrate on the people, the human element, and how they interact with one another.
For instance, has anyone played the board game version of mafia that came out not too long ago, called "The Resistance"? Completely similar core interactions, but very different mechanics.
That game is a blast for people that don't understand mafia. And runs about a million times faster too. Xyre's big red button played to a similar design I felt like.
Oh, I think there's plenty more design space that we have yet to scratch in mafia. People just need to step outside the patterns of what's been done before, on making variants of vigilante/cop/doc role X, and think about it more in the context of its core nature as a game of people deliberating together to root out liars. To concentrate on the people, the human element, and how they interact with one another.
For instance, has anyone played the board game version of mafia that came out not too long ago, called "The Resistance"? Completely similar core interactions, but very different mechanics.
We have the cool people's version of Resistance called Avalon. Why people keep talking about Resistance is weird.
Avalon/Resistance has a weird meta. It gets ridiculous after about 200+ plays. At that point, every action is rote, and every game becomes a coin toss. Perfect play in Resistance/Avalon makes for an absurdly un-fun experience.
Critiques aside, as long as you have new players who don't know how to play perfectly, the game can be fun.
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
One of them was me. Also possible Taredas self-voted.
Looks way too complex for my level of experience but I wouldn't mind trying to learn something from watching.
Maybe the site just doesn't have the player base necessary to support big specialty games anymore? There are enough players to fill a game of this size, but not when you add in the constraints of being (a) capable of handling and (b) interested in experiencing bastard design.
Experiments Series: #5 (Courtly Intrigue Mafia) | #4 (Drunken Tracker) | #3 (Big Red Button) - coming soon | #2 (Pope Mafia) | #1 (Iso's Inflammable Mafia)
Mini Games: MTGS Mafia Redux II (Invitational, Evil Mirror Universe) | Unreal City
Old Games (bad): The Greenwood Affair | Blood Moon Mafia
I'm trying to actually get my "Mafia break" in that I've been meaning to hit for like 6 months, now.
Also, we do have a Specialty and a Normal currently running.
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
I think people can handle big and complex games just fine. Bastard design is the concern. Players want to be able to figure out a game to some extent.
Like..you tell me, Xyre. How much more complex is this game than, say, Fiasco Corp(what I feel was your most complex setup)? Hmm, actually maybe your most complex was Ozone Underground. Same question.
(I think looking back Fiasco was more bastardy-complex than Ozone - both had mod-related mechanics, but the mod-related mechanics were more prevalent in Fiasco, and that's not to mention the replacement list shenanigans and the role that could choose when the game began. Ozone's complexity was more due to the fact that the Shutdown mechanic had never been tried before, and a lot of the vanillas only passingly resembled "normal" roles, making everything a lot more confusing for the players on a tactical level. But looking back, that setup actually was fairly "normal" - many of the neutrals are just wacky spins on normal neutrals, e.g. survivor, lyncher, cult leader.
Now, my setup for Too Many Neutrals 2, on the other hand... Let's just say Az has inspired me to push the bar. :evillaugh:)
Experiments Series: #5 (Courtly Intrigue Mafia) | #4 (Drunken Tracker) | #3 (Big Red Button) - coming soon | #2 (Pope Mafia) | #1 (Iso's Inflammable Mafia)
Mini Games: MTGS Mafia Redux II (Invitational, Evil Mirror Universe) | Unreal City
Old Games (bad): The Greenwood Affair | Blood Moon Mafia
This game, though...
I think part of the disconnect here might actually be between you and me? Like... if you asked the questions you asked me about Blood Moon/Fiasco/Matrix/Inheritance/Ozone, I'd have given you the *exact same answer* I gave you when you asked about this game; there's a complexity threshold above which players tend to look at the shiny roles over behavior (and where scum can make outlandish claims and be believed - see GJ in ST:MU3!), and this game is almost certainly over that line.
Flavorwise, this game is along the lines of Matrix/Blood Moon/Greenwood - a bunch of characters from various places have all wound up in a strange place to play Mafia. There's quite a bit of flavor in the roles, though!
Complexity-wise, I think this game is somewhere between Fiasco and Inheritance? It's hard to say exactly, given a combination of open-ended abilities and a fair number of what Xyre would probably call plot twists, which may or may not come up in actual gameplay.
The game *is* more bastard than any of those (Fiasco is probably closest, which isn't surprising since that game played with a fair bit of the same territory, namely rules-affecting and mod stuff) - part of that is that I tend towards 2008-vintage adversarial anti-modgaming measures anyways (Axonn, Town Outsider, anyone?) and turn that up a notch for Mind Screw, part of that is the aforementioned plot twists, part of that is the secret sauce. I can promise that there are no roles that can change another player's alignment and no role that wins the game by being lynched, though!
It is *possible* to figure out what is going on with the setup in this game. It's just more difficult than usual. (Watch out for red herrings!)
---
It's kind of funny, considering the forum we're on, that I suspect that Mafia design is running into the same issues Magic ran into about 5-6 years ago: there's a finite amount of design space, and most of it has been covered by now. One of the reasons that I've tended to look at bastard game design over the years is because two of the less-recognized areas of design space (rules-affecting abilities and [REDACTED]) really work best in a bastard environment. (The other big one is ability duration, which is what Singularity would cover if I ever ran it... there's actually quite a bit of design space there, but some of the most interesting wants a Cult.)
I suspect Mafia design overall will follow Magic's path and start to emphasize flavor over innovative mechanics. There's also probably a role going forwards for looking at old mechanics/roles, fixing them, and taking them for another spin. But this game is a blast from the past, and I've pulled out the stops.
---
I suspect this game will be less complex than FF, but then I think *Inheritance* may have been less complex than FF so...
It is too late for the pebbles to vote."
The Family
Anyways, /out.
I'm not going to have the time to invest in this game.
For instance, has anyone played the board game version of mafia that came out not too long ago, called "The Resistance"? Completely similar core interactions, but very different mechanics.
That game is a blast for people that don't understand mafia. And runs about a million times faster too. Xyre's big red button played to a similar design I felt like.
Running more than 1 game with 15+ players is asking a lot.
The GJ way path to no lynching:
Avalon/Resistance has a weird meta. It gets ridiculous after about 200+ plays. At that point, every action is rote, and every game becomes a coin toss. Perfect play in Resistance/Avalon makes for an absurdly un-fun experience.
Critiques aside, as long as you have new players who don't know how to play perfectly, the game can be fun.