Do you mean that it's not nitpicking? You're saying "Oh, you put yourself as your own highest townread, that's an order!" ANYBODY puts themselves as their highest townread. That's common sense.
Or are you saying that it's not just annoying? In the incredibly unlikely case that you're town, you're wasting time on nothing. EVERYBODY puts themselves as their highest townread. If you want to read something into Azrael's readlist order, then do so, but that particular point is obvious. In the likely case that you're scum, is irritating town your strategy? Either way, I dislike your playstyle here.
Do you mean that it's not nitpicking? You're saying "Oh, you put yourself as your own highest townread, that's an order!" ANYBODY puts themselves as their highest townread. That's common sense.
Or are you saying that it's not just annoying? In the incredibly unlikely case that you're town, you're wasting time on nothing. EVERYBODY puts themselves as their highest townread. If you want to read something into Azrael's readlist order, then do so, but that particular point is obvious. In the likely case that you're scum, is irritating town your strategy? Either way, I dislike your playstyle here.
Post 115 and 119, 119 was a direct reply to you...
Perhaps I listed myself first as a town-clear because that was the first person it occurred to me to town-clear. *level look*
Now, maybe your strategy from Avalon could be coloring my tonereads. But I don't think that it is. Out of your posts, only one or two pushed me towards a townread on you, and a large number pushed me pretty solidly towards a scumread. Moreso than for any other person in the thread. Now, if you want to present a case as to why you have acted as you have, go ahead, but until I see some more remotely townie posts, I have no reason not to continue to keep you as my strongest scumread.
Post 115 and 119, 119 was a direct reply to you...
Perhaps I listed myself first as a town-clear because that was the first person it occurred to me to town-clear. *level look*
Now, maybe your strategy from Avalon could be coloring my tonereads. But I don't think that it is. Out of your posts, only one or two pushed me towards a townread on you, and a large number pushed me pretty solidly towards a scumread. Moreso than for any other person in the thread. Now, if you want to present a case as to why you have acted as you have, go ahead, but until I see some more remotely townie posts, I have no reason not to continue to keep you as my strongest scumread.
For what it's worth, while I don't disagree with you 100%, Azrael is not particularly townread in my book, yet...
You disagree with Azrael's reads, especially his town read on me, and his current scum read list. Azrael is also likely pushing your flavor, from your point of view.
Osie: Does your role really say "town!cantrip" and not just Cantrip?
Specifically, Cantripmancer (Town). So far I haven't escape the randomly getting only vanilla town when I got onsite (I am not sure if I've ever played scum IRL either, though I have occasionally gotten non-vanilla town or played the narrator).
I was going through the thread in order. Someone mentioned Osie was at l-2, and I had no intentions of abruptly ending the day or putting Osie in self hammer range. As I went down posts, turns out L-2 wasn't true, so I put my vote down where I wanted it.
So voting me was just convenient? That doesn't sound very good. Are you sure you don't have a stronger scumread on someone else?
@kpaca, you changed to vote Taredas right after Post 68. What convinced you that Taredas was scum?
@Azrael - I think Tom may have claimed Bur (mislynches day 1) rather than Huntzilla. Not sure on this, but maybe. Between that and my toneread on him, I think he's probably town. Can you give your current thoughts on Killjoy (strong versus weak townread) and why?
@Huntz, @Iso: If exactly two of Killjoy, Taredas, Anaklusmos, and Azrael were scum, which ones would it be?
@D_V: The nitpicking is just annoying. Could you not?
Stronger on someone else? Nah
Of the 4 it would be Anaklusmos and Azrael. I'm not seeing Taredas as scum, and definitely not Killjoy.
Now, answer that same question for me. Feel free to wait until you get the response from Iso.
No. That would imply I cleared people as I read a post that I thought cleared them, without any order indicating degree of confidence, townieness, or scummitude.
@Azrael - I think Tom may have claimed Bur (mislynches day 1) rather than Huntzilla. Not sure on this, but maybe. Between that and my toneread on him, I think he's probably town. Can you give your current thoughts on Killjoy (strong versus weak townread) and why?
I'd recommend being very cautious regarding using flavor as strong evidence of anything. It's very treacherous and misleading stuff, by design. There are some things related to the provision of flavor evidence that I find to be useful behavioral evidence, but the evidence itself is pretty sketch.
Scum-reads I'm inclined to be a cagey about for a little while yet, but I can talk about any town-read you like, all day, up to and including all 8-9 of them. Killjoy is an above medium-strength town read. Short-hand, the primary things I'm looking for in town-reads are a lack of a filter, original ideas, stream-of-conscious style posting, emotional openness, transparency, people who aren't guarding their words but speaking what comes fresh off the top of their minds while taking positions. Killjoy's post are full of material in that vein, like this:
Quote from killjoy »
I caught scum in 15 posts. I am stoked as all get out.
It's a rare scum that thinks to make posts like this one regarding their mindset, and/or that can do it in an authentic way. He's very painfully incorrect in failing to see how ridiculously townie you are, but you can tell that he got there honestly.
And, I mean, I understood where KJ and DV's scum-read on you is coming from, so that's a good thing to you. They're thinking defensive, dodgy, and nervous equals scum. That's all in your history to some extent. But that's the completely wrong metric to use to evaluate your behavior, particularly as a new player. You have to look at the entire picture, and your posting is full of genuine town tells as well, and the nervousness and uncertainty is clearly just linked to your being a relatively inexperienced player trying to find his footing.
It's a 100% classic mislynch/misread of a new townie player. And I hate that Taredas was trying to contribute to it in the limp-wristed, inauthentic fashion that he did. It was pretty awful.
Quote from killjoy »
I disagree that it's moving too fast. Osie is just really obvious scum.
You're pushing for Osie being town really hard, and also that "Az has a higher than usual chance of being scum" feels weird, like a toss-in. Why is that the case?
Also explain why you think all the scum are here already?
Also, what are your thoughts on Osie's behavior, independent of the wagon speed?
I like these lines of questioning here as well - they're not pro forma, they're clearly designed to tease out highly specific information that will lead to a read on his part, not the kinds of generic questions that scum usually toss out while they're going through the motions.
Quote from KJ »
No, he's really not. He's omgussing, flailing, his reads don't feel genuine. He's caught scum.
Again, very, very wrong, he's missing a ton of good evidence in your favor, but I absolutely believe that he believes it. Which makes him town.
Also, Osie, a quick tip (ZOMG, scum-coaching!). It's very easy to become suspicious of the people who are attacking you, and to retaliate in kind.
Sometimes, that's justified. Sometimes, not so much.
The kind of attack you want to be pretty careful about, is to attack people because their reasons for attacking you are bad, or incorrect, or their tone is hostile. People make bad attacks all the time - and the attacks on you are pretty bad so far as I'm concerned (ZOMG, pocketing). But they're also probably arrived at genuinely, IMO, and you can't use the badness of an attack as a surrogate for whether the attack is being made in good faith. You have to find evidence of good faith, or a lack thereof, elsewhere. Because there will be tend to be an awful lot of bad attacks launched by townies over the course of the game, and not all of them are scum.
Also, welcome to the mafia forum and good to have you here. You seem like someone to keep an eye on. In a good way.
Specifically, Cantripmancer (Town). So far I haven't escape the randomly getting only vanilla town when I got onsite (I am not sure if I've ever played scum IRL either, though I have occasionally gotten non-vanilla town or played the narrator).
So voting me was just convenient? That doesn't sound very good. Are you sure you don't have a stronger scumread on someone else?
@kpaca, you changed to vote Taredas right after Post 68. What convinced you that Taredas was scum?
@Azrael - I think Tom may have claimed Bur (mislynches day 1) rather than Huntzilla. Not sure on this, but maybe. Between that and my toneread on him, I think he's probably town. Can you give your current thoughts on Killjoy (strong versus weak townread) and why?
@Huntz, @Iso: If exactly two of Killjoy, Taredas, Anaklusmos, and Azrael were scum, which ones would it be?
@D_V: The nitpicking is just annoying. Could you not?
Post 68 is what convinced me he was scum.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Official Moderator of The [Gutter]
Think the MtgStaff is just swell? Join today! You too can be involved in an 8 year grudge and delete nearly 9000 of kpaca's posts!
Post 115 and 119, 119 was a direct reply to you...
Perhaps I listed myself first as a town-clear because that was the first person it occurred to me to town-clear. *level look*
Now, maybe your strategy from Avalon could be coloring my tonereads. But I don't think that it is. Out of your posts, only one or two pushed me towards a townread on you, and a large number pushed me pretty solidly towards a scumread. Moreso than for any other person in the thread. Now, if you want to present a case as to why you have acted as you have, go ahead, but until I see some more remotely townie posts, I have no reason not to continue to keep you as my strongest scumread.
Can you even tell me why I'm scum reading Azreal?
Now can you? Because your attack has been foolish at best, and grossly malicious at worst.
Now, answer that same question for me. Feel free to wait until you get the response from Iso.
I'm looking for more tells, but at the moment I'm at a heavier scum read on Anak, and am less sure on the other three. Azrael is interesting because he's being welcoming while maintaining game state potentially as scum, but I think his alignment aside, he made a good point on Killjoy. At the moment I'm thinking the scum team (from most to least heavy read) is D_V, Anaklusmos, Taredas… I'm still looking to hear more from a few people, mostly Cyan and Iso.
Also, Osie, a quick tip (ZOMG, scum-coaching!). It's very easy to become suspicious of the people who are attacking you, and to retaliate in kind.
Sometimes, that's justified. Sometimes, not so much.
The kind of attack you want to be pretty careful about, is to attack people because their reasons for attacking you are bad, or incorrect, or their tone is hostile. People make bad attacks all the time - and the attacks on you are pretty bad so far as I'm concerned (ZOMG, pocketing). But they're also probably arrived at genuinely, IMO, and you can't use the badness of an attack as a surrogate for whether the attack is being made in good faith. You have to find evidence of good faith, or a lack thereof, elsewhere. Because there will be tend to be an awful lot of bad attacks launched by townies over the course of the game, and not all of them are scum.
This is a good point. And I did feel that I responded more aggressively than I would have liked to D_V. I believe that I'm mostly separating bias towards people who aimed towards me early on from the picture. I mean, kpaca and Huntz are currently townreads of mine, despite early scumreads on me. I don't like that iso, cyan, and Anak seem to be lurking, though I understand that IRL stuff comes up, and the flavor text game that Anak is playing isn't exactly easy…
Osie up from leantown to full townread given most recent posts.
I think either my D_V or shadow scumread is busted - very strongly doubt the first two players to suggest nameclaim are both scum - but I'm not sure which.
Az is my keystone read for the setup; leaning town on him given page 4 posting but not confident, and I think both gamestate and what I should be doing are very different in town!Az and scum!Az worlds. Need to assess what gamestate looks like given town!Az and scum!Az...
Actually, let me just do that now?
If town!Az:
- Az town by given, Cyan strong townread, kpaca moderately strong townread. That means either shadow is scum or the wagon on me is all-town; both are plausible, especially at 4 votes and the second leading wagon on my other strong townread (I'm town, I think Osie is town, if both leading wagons are on town then scum usually don't care which wagon they support).
- Counterwagon on Osie is {(D_V), Killjoy, (Tar), Anak, (kpaca), Huntzilla}, with D_V, kpaca, and myself all leaving the wagon and Huntzilla not initially joining it due to wagon size. Factor in wagon target and the players not involved with the wagon are Az (town by given), Cyan (strong townread), tomsloger, shadow, and Iso. So either the scumteam is *exactly* {tomsloger, shadow, Iso} or there's at least one scum involved with the wagon - and Osie's a townread, so unless that's a busted read all the scum are *on* the wagon.
- That implies, assuming no busted townreads, roughly 0-1 scum on my wagon ({shadow}), 1-2 scum on the Osie wagon {D_V, Anak, Huntzilla}, 1-2 scum off both wagons {Iso, tomsloger}.
Flip that around, assume scum!Az:
- Az is now scum by given, so definitely one scum on my wagon. Cyan and kpaca still townreads; I think shadow is actually *less* likely to be scum in this world? Scum generally don't all pile onto a single wagon when both leading wagons are on town, preferring to either spread evenly or stay off both wagons. Doesn't apply if I'm wrong and Osie is scum, but that would imply that the scumteam is *exactly* {Az, Osie, shadow} and that feels dubious by corner-case standards.
- With one scum given offwagon, that puts 0-2 scum involved with the Osie wagon. Scum!Osie is slightly more plausible in scum!Az worlds than in town!Az worlds, but I think it's still a corner case. Still have a hard time seeing the Osie wagon get that much support that fast without at least one scum on it, so...
- I think the best fit scum!Az worlds have the second scum on the Osie wagon and the third scum was off to the side; scum!Az with two scum on Osie is dubious since it would mean all three scum rejected the scum tendency to react to multiple wagons on town by sitting on the side eating popcorn, scum!Az with two scum on the sidelines would mean that the Osie wagon hit L-2 without a single scum vote. That would mean one scum in {D_V, Anak, Hunt} and one scum in {Iso, tom}. That leaves six likely scum!Az worlds:
Az, D_V, Tom - Tom's off-Tar, off-Osie vote is specifically *on Az* and D_V moved off of Osie *onto Az* so this would require *both* of Az's partners to be bussing him when he's not under heavy suspicion. No.
Az, Anak, Tom - Maybe? Anak fits into basically every team given his post restriction and how he's played it so far, Tom just requires that Az pulled the "throw a scumbuddy in as your weakest scumread" and Tom's response is consistent (or more accurately isn't inconsistent) with scum who knows that the player attacking him is scum.
Az, Hunt, Tom - would require that Az put both of his scumbuddies on his scumlist when neither was under heavy suspicion, not likely.
Az, D_V, Iso - D_V's behavior from P3 on is really weird if he's scum with Az. Plausible, but only barely.
Az, Anak, Iso - This... is a possible team. Az's townread on Iso feels premature to me, and Anak is still the free space of scumteam worldbuilding.
Az, Hunt, Iso - I don't think that meshes with Az/Hunt interactions? Az/Tom might be scumbuddies, but I don't think I can say the same for Az/Hunt. I'd reassess it if I get lynched toDay and Az doesn't go after Hunt toMorrow, but nobody listens to dead players so :shrug:.
So, scum!Az requires either {Az, Anak, Iso}, {Az, Anak, Tom}, or me having busted reads. Probably means Az is just town and I should move him above kpaca on the town/scum list. Definitely means I don't want to lynch Az toDay - every realistic scum!Az world has Anak as his scumbuddy, and scum!Anak does not imply scum!Az.
Need to run through the town!Az scumteam list and see what I can get out of it, but I'm out of time right now.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
Now, maybe your strategy from Avalon could be coloring my tonereads. But I don't think that it is. Out of your posts, only one or two pushed me towards a townread on you, and a large number pushed me pretty solidly towards a scumread. Moreso than for any other person in the thread. Now, if you want to present a case as to why you have acted as you have, go ahead, but until I see some more remotely townie posts, I have no reason not to continue to keep you as my strongest scumread.
Avalon was not a mafia game, so I doubt strategy from there would spill over much.
Not that I read it...
I don't think theres a good reason to scumread DV right now.
To be annoyed with him, sure. Thats not the same thing.
ugh i want to talk about 158 but im not going to yet.
@AZ
I think I latched on to the tonereading me off of one post where I hadn't read the game yet. And that is gonna continue bothering me until you deign to explain it.
how long do i have to wait?
Also, Osie, a quick tip (ZOMG, scum-coaching!). It's very easy to become suspicious of the people who are attacking you, and to retaliate in kind.
Sometimes, that's justified. Sometimes, not so much.
The kind of attack you want to be pretty careful about, is to attack people because their reasons for attacking you are bad, or incorrect, or their tone is hostile. People make bad attacks all the time - and the attacks on you are pretty bad so far as I'm concerned (ZOMG, pocketing). But they're also probably arrived at genuinely, IMO, and you can't use the badness of an attack as a surrogate for whether the attack is being made in good faith. You have to find evidence of good faith, or a lack thereof, elsewhere. Because there will be tend to be an awful lot of bad attacks launched by townies over the course of the game, and not all of them are scum.
Also, welcome to the mafia forum and good to have you here. You seem like someone to keep an eye on. In a good way.
im of the opinion that scum are probably too scared to jump on osi. too many respected players already coming out against it.
they might jump on tare though *level look*
I think shadow is actually *less* likely to be scum in this world? Scum generally don't all pile onto a single wagon when both leading wagons are on town, preferring to either spread evenly or stay off both wagons.
this is weird when a bunch of your scumteams involve two people on a wagon together...
for postgame cred:
AZ/huntz/[someone not really playing yet]
osi/anak/shadow/dv town
killjoy shrouded in mystery
if AZ is town, taredas using him as a keystone is possibly scum. its almost exactly what i did with vaimes in barebones. allows him to put AZ in this bubble where he doesnt really have to read him and speak in hypotheticals
Now, maybe your strategy from Avalon could be coloring my tonereads. But I don't think that it is. Out of your posts, only one or two pushed me towards a townread on you, and a large number pushed me pretty solidly towards a scumread. Moreso than for any other person in the thread. Now, if you want to present a case as to why you have acted as you have, go ahead, but until I see some more remotely townie posts, I have no reason not to continue to keep you as my strongest scumread.
Avalon was not a mafia game, so I doubt strategy from there would spill over much.
Not that I read it...
I don't think theres a good reason to scumread DV right now.
To be annoyed with him, sure. Thats not the same thing.
That makes sense. I'll reevaluate again with the possibility of D_V town. I may have jumped the gun on that.
for postgame cred:
AZ/huntz/[someone not really playing yet]
osi/anak/shadow/dv town
killjoy shrouded in mystery
if AZ is town, taredas using him as a keystone is possibly scum. its almost exactly what i did with vaimes in barebones. allows him to put AZ in this bubble where he doesnt really have to read him and speak in hypotheticals
Why Anak town?
@kpaca: If you're doing stuff now, then give a real answer my question: What about post 68 convinced you that Taredas is scum?
Now, answer that same question for me. Feel free to wait until you get the response from Iso.
I'm looking for more tells, but at the moment I'm at a heavier scum read on Anak, and am less sure on the other three. Azrael is interesting because he's being welcoming while maintaining game state potentially as scum, but I think his alignment aside, he made a good point on Killjoy. At the moment I'm thinking the scum team (from most to least heavy read) is D_V, Anaklusmos, Taredas… I'm still looking to hear more from a few people, mostly Cyan and Iso.
Also, Osie, a quick tip (ZOMG, scum-coaching!). It's very easy to become suspicious of the people who are attacking you, and to retaliate in kind.
Sometimes, that's justified. Sometimes, not so much.
The kind of attack you want to be pretty careful about, is to attack people because their reasons for attacking you are bad, or incorrect, or their tone is hostile. People make bad attacks all the time - and the attacks on you are pretty bad so far as I'm concerned (ZOMG, pocketing). But they're also probably arrived at genuinely, IMO, and you can't use the badness of an attack as a surrogate for whether the attack is being made in good faith. You have to find evidence of good faith, or a lack thereof, elsewhere. Because there will be tend to be an awful lot of bad attacks launched by townies over the course of the game, and not all of them are scum.
This is a good point. And I did feel that I responded more aggressively than I would have liked to D_V. I believe that I'm mostly separating bias towards people who aimed towards me early on from the picture. I mean, kpaca and Huntz are currently townreads of mine, despite early scumreads on me. I don't like that iso, cyan, and Anak seem to be lurking, though I understand that IRL stuff comes up, and the flavor text game that Anak is playing isn't exactly easy…
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
It doesn't count in certain ways, others it does. It's still deception.
Nope, totally town. Hence why we made pregame comments about tunneling each other to death despite both being town.
FWIW, I still think Osie's town here, but that's more due to game flow than resonating town behavior.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
I like his restriction, I think pulling something like that off is clever and requires an additional level of commitment. However, it's also a really easy way to hide in plain sight, so I'm not willing to give him more than a very slight town lean.
I like his restriction, I think pulling something like that off is clever and requires an additional level of commitment. However, it's also a really easy way to hide in plain sight, so I'm not willing to give him more than a very slight town lean.
its harder than you think to maintain it over time.
for now, hes trying to make himself understood and thats enough.
also i can just imagine anak finding out hes me this game and the sudden need to do something silly. decent chance thats what happened, and hes always town in that scenario. by setupgaming and mindset.
I like his restriction, I think pulling something like that off is clever and requires an additional level of commitment. However, it's also a really easy way to hide in plain sight, so I'm not willing to give him more than a very slight town lean.
its harder than you think to maintain it over time.
for now, hes trying to make himself understood and thats enough.
also i can just imagine anak finding out hes me this game and the sudden need to do something silly. decent chance thats what happened, and hes always town in that scenario. by setupgaming and mindset.
Actually, now that you put that last part into words, I think Anak is much more likely to be town. His trying that as scum would take serious gall, and it being a roll imposed requirement would be really bad for a scum roll. I know it's been done before (sort of, cat SK in STMU4?) but I don't think it is likely to show up here at all.
Do you mean that it's not nitpicking? You're saying "Oh, you put yourself as your own highest townread, that's an order!" ANYBODY puts themselves as their highest townread. That's common sense.
Or are you saying that it's not just annoying? In the incredibly unlikely case that you're town, you're wasting time on nothing. EVERYBODY puts themselves as their highest townread. If you want to read something into Azrael's readlist order, then do so, but that particular point is obvious. In the likely case that you're scum, is irritating town your strategy? Either way, I dislike your playstyle here.
I don't think you've read anything I've written.
I've been reading everything. Multiple times... And you know what, as far as I can tell, Azrael made basically the same point as me on this one:
Now, maybe your strategy from Avalon could be coloring my tonereads. But I don't think that it is. Out of your posts, only one or two pushed me towards a townread on you, and a large number pushed me pretty solidly towards a scumread. Moreso than for any other person in the thread. Now, if you want to present a case as to why you have acted as you have, go ahead, but until I see some more remotely townie posts, I have no reason not to continue to keep you as my strongest scumread.
Can you even tell me why I'm scum reading Azreal?
For what it's worth, while I don't disagree with you 100%, Azrael is not particularly townread in my book, yet...
You disagree with Azrael's reads, especially his town read on me, and his current scum read list. Azrael is also likely pushing your flavor, from your point of view.
Of the 4 it would be Anaklusmos and Azrael. I'm not seeing Taredas as scum, and definitely not Killjoy.
Now, answer that same question for me. Feel free to wait until you get the response from Iso.
No. That would imply I cleared people as I read a post that I thought cleared them, without any order indicating degree of confidence, townieness, or scummitude.
I'd recommend being very cautious regarding using flavor as strong evidence of anything. It's very treacherous and misleading stuff, by design. There are some things related to the provision of flavor evidence that I find to be useful behavioral evidence, but the evidence itself is pretty sketch.
Scum-reads I'm inclined to be a cagey about for a little while yet, but I can talk about any town-read you like, all day, up to and including all 8-9 of them. Killjoy is an above medium-strength town read. Short-hand, the primary things I'm looking for in town-reads are a lack of a filter, original ideas, stream-of-conscious style posting, emotional openness, transparency, people who aren't guarding their words but speaking what comes fresh off the top of their minds while taking positions. Killjoy's post are full of material in that vein, like this:
It's a rare scum that thinks to make posts like this one regarding their mindset, and/or that can do it in an authentic way. He's very painfully incorrect in failing to see how ridiculously townie you are, but you can tell that he got there honestly.
And, I mean, I understood where KJ and DV's scum-read on you is coming from, so that's a good thing to you. They're thinking defensive, dodgy, and nervous equals scum. That's all in your history to some extent. But that's the completely wrong metric to use to evaluate your behavior, particularly as a new player. You have to look at the entire picture, and your posting is full of genuine town tells as well, and the nervousness and uncertainty is clearly just linked to your being a relatively inexperienced player trying to find his footing.
It's a 100% classic mislynch/misread of a new townie player. And I hate that Taredas was trying to contribute to it in the limp-wristed, inauthentic fashion that he did. It was pretty awful.
I like these lines of questioning here as well - they're not pro forma, they're clearly designed to tease out highly specific information that will lead to a read on his part, not the kinds of generic questions that scum usually toss out while they're going through the motions.
Again, very, very wrong, he's missing a ton of good evidence in your favor, but I absolutely believe that he believes it. Which makes him town.
Sometimes, that's justified. Sometimes, not so much.
The kind of attack you want to be pretty careful about, is to attack people because their reasons for attacking you are bad, or incorrect, or their tone is hostile. People make bad attacks all the time - and the attacks on you are pretty bad so far as I'm concerned (ZOMG, pocketing). But they're also probably arrived at genuinely, IMO, and you can't use the badness of an attack as a surrogate for whether the attack is being made in good faith. You have to find evidence of good faith, or a lack thereof, elsewhere. Because there will be tend to be an awful lot of bad attacks launched by townies over the course of the game, and not all of them are scum.
Also, welcome to the mafia forum and good to have you here. You seem like someone to keep an eye on. In a good way.
Post 68 is what convinced me he was scum.
I'm looking for more tells, but at the moment I'm at a heavier scum read on Anak, and am less sure on the other three. Azrael is interesting because he's being welcoming while maintaining game state potentially as scum, but I think his alignment aside, he made a good point on Killjoy. At the moment I'm thinking the scum team (from most to least heavy read) is D_V, Anaklusmos, Taredas… I'm still looking to hear more from a few people, mostly Cyan and Iso.
This is a good point. And I did feel that I responded more aggressively than I would have liked to D_V. I believe that I'm mostly separating bias towards people who aimed towards me early on from the picture. I mean, kpaca and Huntz are currently townreads of mine, despite early scumreads on me. I don't like that iso, cyan, and Anak seem to be lurking, though I understand that IRL stuff comes up, and the flavor text game that Anak is playing isn't exactly easy…
Thanks. It's a learning process. I still have yet to actually play a game as scum, though, so we'll see how it goes if and when that happens…
Yeah, but what about post 68 convinced you of that?
{Tar}
Cyan
Osie
kpaca
Killjoy
Az
Huntzilla
Anak
Iso
D_V
tomsloger
shadow
Osie up from leantown to full townread given most recent posts.
I think either my D_V or shadow scumread is busted - very strongly doubt the first two players to suggest nameclaim are both scum - but I'm not sure which.
Az is my keystone read for the setup; leaning town on him given page 4 posting but not confident, and I think both gamestate and what I should be doing are very different in town!Az and scum!Az worlds. Need to assess what gamestate looks like given town!Az and scum!Az...
Actually, let me just do that now?
If town!Az:
- Az town by given, Cyan strong townread, kpaca moderately strong townread. That means either shadow is scum or the wagon on me is all-town; both are plausible, especially at 4 votes and the second leading wagon on my other strong townread (I'm town, I think Osie is town, if both leading wagons are on town then scum usually don't care which wagon they support).
- Counterwagon on Osie is {(D_V), Killjoy, (Tar), Anak, (kpaca), Huntzilla}, with D_V, kpaca, and myself all leaving the wagon and Huntzilla not initially joining it due to wagon size. Factor in wagon target and the players not involved with the wagon are Az (town by given), Cyan (strong townread), tomsloger, shadow, and Iso. So either the scumteam is *exactly* {tomsloger, shadow, Iso} or there's at least one scum involved with the wagon - and Osie's a townread, so unless that's a busted read all the scum are *on* the wagon.
- That implies, assuming no busted townreads, roughly 0-1 scum on my wagon ({shadow}), 1-2 scum on the Osie wagon {D_V, Anak, Huntzilla}, 1-2 scum off both wagons {Iso, tomsloger}.
Flip that around, assume scum!Az:
- Az is now scum by given, so definitely one scum on my wagon. Cyan and kpaca still townreads; I think shadow is actually *less* likely to be scum in this world? Scum generally don't all pile onto a single wagon when both leading wagons are on town, preferring to either spread evenly or stay off both wagons. Doesn't apply if I'm wrong and Osie is scum, but that would imply that the scumteam is *exactly* {Az, Osie, shadow} and that feels dubious by corner-case standards.
- With one scum given offwagon, that puts 0-2 scum involved with the Osie wagon. Scum!Osie is slightly more plausible in scum!Az worlds than in town!Az worlds, but I think it's still a corner case. Still have a hard time seeing the Osie wagon get that much support that fast without at least one scum on it, so...
- I think the best fit scum!Az worlds have the second scum on the Osie wagon and the third scum was off to the side; scum!Az with two scum on Osie is dubious since it would mean all three scum rejected the scum tendency to react to multiple wagons on town by sitting on the side eating popcorn, scum!Az with two scum on the sidelines would mean that the Osie wagon hit L-2 without a single scum vote. That would mean one scum in {D_V, Anak, Hunt} and one scum in {Iso, tom}. That leaves six likely scum!Az worlds:
Az, D_V, Tom - Tom's off-Tar, off-Osie vote is specifically *on Az* and D_V moved off of Osie *onto Az* so this would require *both* of Az's partners to be bussing him when he's not under heavy suspicion. No.
Az, Anak, Tom - Maybe? Anak fits into basically every team given his post restriction and how he's played it so far, Tom just requires that Az pulled the "throw a scumbuddy in as your weakest scumread" and Tom's response is consistent (or more accurately isn't inconsistent) with scum who knows that the player attacking him is scum.
Az, Hunt, Tom - would require that Az put both of his scumbuddies on his scumlist when neither was under heavy suspicion, not likely.
Az, D_V, Iso - D_V's behavior from P3 on is really weird if he's scum with Az. Plausible, but only barely.
Az, Anak, Iso - This... is a possible team. Az's townread on Iso feels premature to me, and Anak is still the free space of scumteam worldbuilding.
Az, Hunt, Iso - I don't think that meshes with Az/Hunt interactions? Az/Tom might be scumbuddies, but I don't think I can say the same for Az/Hunt. I'd reassess it if I get lynched toDay and Az doesn't go after Hunt toMorrow, but nobody listens to dead players so :shrug:.
So, scum!Az requires either {Az, Anak, Iso}, {Az, Anak, Tom}, or me having busted reads. Probably means Az is just town and I should move him above kpaca on the town/scum list. Definitely means I don't want to lynch Az toDay - every realistic scum!Az world has Anak as his scumbuddy, and scum!Anak does not imply scum!Az.
Need to run through the town!Az scumteam list and see what I can get out of it, but I'm out of time right now.
It is too late for the pebbles to vote."
Mutual consent is not required for war.
These waters remain uncharted, though not for lack of trying.
Great devotion yields great reward.
Do you plan to do anything this game?
What if I told you that as scum I actively try and screw with vote analysis?
I'm not doing things?
Taredas (4) - Azrael, kpaca, shadowlancerx, Cyan
osieorb18 (3) - Killjoy, Anaklusmos, Huntzilla
D_V (2) - Iso, osieorb18
shadowlancerx (1) - Taredas
Azrael (2) - tomsloger, D_V
Not Voting (0): -
With 12 alive, it's 7 to lynch. Deadline is at Thursday 23rd of March, 9:59PM GMT.
Maybe I should also check Avalon to see what she did that game to see if it compares.
eventually!
probably!
Not that I read it...
I don't think theres a good reason to scumread DV right now.
To be annoyed with him, sure. Thats not the same thing.
is that just elimination or do you see something there?
@AZ
I think I latched on to the tonereading me off of one post where I hadn't read the game yet. And that is gonna continue bothering me until you deign to explain it.
how long do i have to wait?
im of the opinion that scum are probably too scared to jump on osi. too many respected players already coming out against it.
they might jump on tare though *level look*
id like to be in charge of reading anak please. because im good at it and posting restrictions are my bailiwick.
so far, town. especially if he's really me. i'm always town in this setup.
AZ/huntz/[someone not really playing yet]
osi/anak/shadow/dv town
killjoy shrouded in mystery
if AZ is town, taredas using him as a keystone is possibly scum. its almost exactly what i did with vaimes in barebones. allows him to put AZ in this bubble where he doesnt really have to read him and speak in hypotheticals
That makes sense. I'll reevaluate again with the possibility of D_V town. I may have jumped the gun on that.
Why Anak town?
@kpaca: If you're doing stuff now, then give a real answer my question: What about post 68 convinced you that Taredas is scum?
Yeah, I'm reading you wrong. You aren't noob scum.
Unvote
Totally PoE. I only had 4 to pick from.
why not?
Because he's been lurking and cryptic? I guess he could just be having trouble playing your restriction, but FoS does not seem unwarranted.
Sigh. Unvote.
It doesn't count in certain ways, others it does. It's still deception.
FWIW, I still think Osie's town here, but that's more due to game flow than resonating town behavior.
What do you think of Anak?
for now, hes trying to make himself understood and thats enough.
also i can just imagine anak finding out hes me this game and the sudden need to do something silly. decent chance thats what happened, and hes always town in that scenario. by setupgaming and mindset.