But the Grapefruit thing N1 would make him a scum targetable PR of some kind I guess? I guess he could assume Grape was telling truth and would have used his ability N1. Or they could both be scum. Or Shadow's actually the rolecop and Mind is a goon. Idk.
I kind of want Shadow to be town here because the way he volunteered to test Grape's claim felt really town, and locking himself into a claim as scum only for it to be....flavor cop seems.... suboptimal?
But not sure what town targetable role even could exist. We have info role in rodemy, a neighborizer in Gruffin, protective in Hunt (and possibly Grape), so I can see it being hard to come up with something claimable that is believable as scum, too. Yeah I don't know. Kind of talking myself in circles to see if there's a world where this isn't just scum/scum.
Uggh sorry all I've been busy and distracted by another game. Going to try and give my full attention here now because if I don't I'm going to be the game losing mislynch down the line as I fit in almost every team.
So the way I'm viewing the game after reading the past 48 hours of posts is this Terry, Quix, and Hunt are all safely town. Cantrip is almost there but I haven't done due diligence to make sure.
Mind/Rhand is a dichotomy. I don't think that's an aggro bus. Leaning heavily towards Mind as scum at this stage.
I think Typh is scum for angleshooty OoG reasons.
Shadow makes tons of sense as scum with both Rhand and Mind. And his "confirming" my role after pushing me is the sort of pocket plays he loves to make as scum.
At this point I realized I have almost no read on Cyan. I have a voice in my head saying he's town for the vote on AG, but I realize he's the one who put it there.
I think Shadow is the safest lynch today as each kill narrows the pool and others aren't as firm in their town block as I am. Not opposed to a Mind lynch at all, just think Shadow makes sense in more teams and I can see the parallels from this game to overwatch.
Grape: 1 shot Cloaker
Rhand: VT
Hunt: Bulletproof
Mind: Vanilla cop
Shadow: Flavor Cop
Cyan: No claim? I thought there was a VT claim but couldn't find one in his ISO.
Cantrip: No claim
Quix: No claim
SJT: No claim
Typh: No claim
So the way I'm viewing the game after reading the past 48 hours of posts is this Terry, Quix, and Hunt are all safely town. Cantrip is almost there but I haven't done due diligence to make sure.
Mind/Rhand is a dichotomy. I don't think that's an aggro bus. Leaning heavily towards Mind as scum at this stage.
I think Typh is scum for angleshooty OoG reasons.
Shadow makes tons of sense as scum with both Rhand and Mind. And his "confirming" my role after pushing me is the sort of pocket plays he loves to make as scum.
At this point I realized I have almost no read on Cyan. I have a voice in my head saying he's town for the vote on AG, but I realize he's the one who put it there.
I think Shadow is the safest lynch today as each kill narrows the pool and others aren't as firm in their town block as I am. Not opposed to a Mind lynch at all, just think Shadow makes sense in more teams and I can see the parallels from this game to overwatch.
Hum.
Talk to me more about how scum!Shadow and town!Mindreaver make any sense?
Right now I'm trying to build a world of Mind, Shadow, Cyan, and Typh as scum. Looking through vote counts this one stands out as somewhat problematic for those worlds:
so I don't think it makes it impossible. But less likely.
Shadow's vote tracking across D1 is super inconsistent. He is off and back on Mind many times and is making me want to conf bias them as buddies based on that.
On the other hand entirely I think these few vote counts tell a compelling cyan/shadow buddy story.
With the amount of confirmed town on that wagon Cyan at the front and shadow coming in late looks very suspicious. And apart from one unvote he stayed on Hunt till the end from this stage. The D1 vote counts are making me very comfortable voting shadow first. I don't look great either, but shadow appears flighty about being on the Mind wagon and similarly flighty about Hunt but tunnels in on it in the end. I know he said he'd vote AG to avoid a tie, but we never saw it thanks to Gruffin beating him to the punch.
On the Cyan EoD switch that he's been holding up as proof of towniness. Yes it prevented a no lynch and took away the opportunity for town to switch and vote Hunt but it also is proof to be held up later of towniness.
So D1 summary Cyan scum worlds look less likely (but possible) but Mind/Shadow/Typh works fine.
This is the first D2 wagon that sticks out to me. Cyan and Shadow voting together again. Not sure what to make of it, but they are together a ton.
Fulcrum spends a bit of time on Mind on D2. Seems like a slight blow to my fulcrum/typh theory. Could have been thinking it's a lost cause and get the bus in but that is biased thinking by me.
Another blow to the cyan as scum world is it puts all three active scum onto KJ. I guess that probably has to be the case given my reads on SJT and Cantrip (and is why I really need to do due diligence there), but it's still feels like it should be unlikely.
So conclusions based on VC's Shadow looks more scummy than Mind. I paid no attention to Rhand which was a mistake I'll try to rectify tomorrow. Same with Cantrip.
Either way I feel comfortable with voting Shadow right now, but going to wait for claims to play out. FOS: Shadow
@Quioxtic I haven't thought about it behaviourally, was just trying to walk through possible worlds. If I were to start doing that without extensive back work it would be on the D1 vote counts where Shadow was on Mind a fair bit. I think it's most likely they are scum together, but I'm more confident in Shadow based purely on the VC.
Right now I'm trying to build a world of Mind, Shadow, Cyan, and Typh as scum. Looking through vote counts this one stands out as somewhat problematic for those worlds:
so I don't think it makes it impossible. But less likely.
Shadow's vote tracking across D1 is super inconsistent. He is off and back on Mind many times and is making me want to conf bias them as buddies based on that.
On the other hand entirely I think these few vote counts tell a compelling cyan/shadow buddy story.
With the amount of confirmed town on that wagon Cyan at the front and shadow coming in late looks very suspicious. And apart from one unvote he stayed on Hunt till the end from this stage. The D1 vote counts are making me very comfortable voting shadow first. I don't look great either, but shadow appears flighty about being on the Mind wagon and similarly flighty about Hunt but tunnels in on it in the end. I know he said he'd vote AG to avoid a tie, but we never saw it thanks to Gruffin beating him to the punch.
On the Cyan EoD switch that he's been holding up as proof of towniness. Yes it prevented a no lynch and took away the opportunity for town to switch and vote Hunt but it also is proof to be held up later of towniness.
So D1 summary Cyan scum worlds look less likely (but possible) but Mind/Shadow/Typh works fine.
This is the first D2 wagon that sticks out to me. Cyan and Shadow voting together again. Not sure what to make of it, but they are together a ton.
Fulcrum spends a bit of time on Mind on D2. Seems like a slight blow to my fulcrum/typh theory. Could have been thinking it's a lost cause and get the bus in but that is biased thinking by me.
Another blow to the cyan as scum world is it puts all three active scum onto KJ. I guess that probably has to be the case given my reads on SJT and Cantrip (and is why I really need to do due diligence there), but it's still feels like it should be unlikely.
So conclusions based on VC's Shadow looks more scummy than Mind. I paid no attention to Rhand which was a mistake I'll try to rectify tomorrow. Same with Cantrip.
Either way I feel comfortable with voting Shadow right now, but going to wait for claims to play out. FOS: Shadow
Shadow can't be scum without Mind, not after EOD yesterday. If Mind and KJ are both town, shadow clearly just piles on the wagon of the role that the scum knows is an investigative one.
Like, I'm just kind of trying to wrap my head around your thought process where instead of trying to figure that out, you... go for someone else entirely. It's just not a progression that makes logical sense to me. Instead of figuring out how he fits with the two possible scum, you try to isolate him as scum independent of the information in the thread.
A)The town doesn't have all of these investigative roles and B)I sincerely doubt that the 'Name Cop' is a role in the game. I would say that we can just go ahead and lynch shadow now because he is clearly lying, but I don't think the order in which we lynch mind and shadow really matters, they're both plainly scum.
Is town cyan so bad right now that despite a literal dichotomy he wants to lynch outside of it? (I'm being mildly pedantic)
Cyan, for real though, you just finished a game with two watcher roles and my being a flavor cop somehow doesn't fit with an actual investigation role? Really?
Okay, Grape, you're flip flopping on me solely because of VCA? Like for real? And to the extent that you actually think lynching me is better than one of the 2 people that has absolutely confirmed scum between them? Also, saying you are worried that I might be interested in pocketing you is not something that should come as a shock considering I blatantly said day one that I wanted to pocket you before I felt like you were scummy.I know for a fact I've not been scummy this game, so the sheer number of people pushing me is absurd. Go ahead, if you think I'm scum at this point in the game then I implore you to make that case so I can systematically destroy it, because I'm absolutely town and I refuse to be shoved down by this foolery. And don't use crap like my associations with people who haven't even flipped yet, because that just won't fly here in LyLo. We don't have the luxury of getting to be wrong again.
Like, I'm just kind of trying to wrap my head around your thought process where instead of trying to figure that out, you... go for someone else entirely. It's just not a progression that makes logical sense to me. Instead of figuring out how he fits with the two possible scum, you try to isolate him as scum independent of the information in the thread.
I agree there is 100% scum in those two, but I started looking at vote counts to try and sort the whole thing out Shadow is the main thing that jumped out at me. Mindreaver is highly like to be scum as well but I've been back and forth on Rhand all day and don't trust myself to read him without bias at this stage.
@Cyan what you say makes sense with regards to shadow and Mind together.
I think Quix, Shadow, and Cyan's different reactions are all pretty meaningful.
Cyan says I'm bussing and continues to try to solve the game. That feels like a town reaction to me.
Quix expresses some genuine confusion at my approach given I'm ignoring the dichotomy between Rhand and Mind. And asks me to explain my thought process.
Shadow on the other hand knee jerk scum reads me. Says I flip flopped on him purely because of VC which isn't true. And said some nonsense about it not being surprising he'd try to pocket me that makes no sense given the timeline of events.
Also he just said he wants to pursue me tomorrow and has taken no stance today.
@Shadow Since you think we need to solve the Rhand v Mind puzzle what is your stance on it?
This is all pretty amusing. You can literally watch shadow and grape realize that they're both getting lynched anyway, and then make the conscious decision to try to bus each other for an attempt at town cred.
@Cyan what is your case against me? What do you make of Gruffin town reading me before being modkilled given they had more information than the thread at large? I know I'm well past earning any town cred at this stage but I am not going to be the game losing mislynch.
What do you make of Shadow pushing me several times during D1 and only taking his vote off when he went to Huntzilla's wagon? How about the fact that I followed you to AG at EoD1 but Shadow stayed on Hunt?
Decided to do some coloring to see if it helped it make anymore sense.
[7] killjoy - Rhand, Cyan, Grapefruit21, shadowlancerx, Mindreaver, quixotic72, Huntzilla
[4] Mindreaver - TheRealStinkyJoeTerry, Rodemy, Cantripmancer, killjoy
Not Voting: Typhrous
This is leaving out my scum reads as I don't trust myself. Well except Typh but it's for OoG reasons. Looking at this and knowing KJ flipped town there has to be at least 2 scum on KJ's wagon. Assuming it's mind and Shadow for reasons discussed elsewhere we get this.
Not Voting: Typhrous
Rhand moves to Green because of the dichotomy between him and Mind. That leaves Cyan and Cantrip as the only two players without a strong read on them. I don't like the look of the game once I get to here. Cyan has compelling VC reasons to not be scum and Cantrip behavioural ones (though I still need to reread as I'm not as confident in that as I should be). I'd have to reevaluate my SJT and Quixotic reads if we progressed to here, but I don't feel good at all about the game state.
If I go the other direction and assume Mind is town and Rhand is scum the vote count make no sense with the reads I have.
[7] killjoy - Rhand, Cyan, Grapefruit21, shadowlancerx, Mindreaver, quixotic72, Huntzilla
[4] Mindreaver - TheRealStinkyJoeTerry, Rodemy, Cantripmancer, killjoy
Not Voting: Typhrous
The given the flips of Rod and KJ there can't be more than two scum on the mind wagon. And the scum team would know that Mindreaver's claim was legit. So we wouldn't expect a large pile onto KJ. So scum team would have to be almost exactly Rhand, Typh, RSJT, and Cantrip. Cyan doesn't make sense as scum in this scenario as they wouldn't have jump started a counter wagon to a PR with two votes. Shadow is possible in place of either RJST or Cantrip.
The worlds where Rhand as scum are more difficult to make work looking at that vote count and pretty much require Cantrip to be scum. This makes me feel much better about voting for mind and I'm willing to do so after I finally take a deeper look at Cantrips posts.
Has anyone done an ISO with analysis on him recently to save me a bit of effort? Either way that is tomorrow's mission: reading Cantrip.
This is all pretty amusing. You can literally watch shadow and grape realize that they're both getting lynched anyway, and then make the conscious decision to try to bus each other for an attempt at town cred.
Quit being useless, see below again. Also have you read any of my scum games?
I know for a fact I've not been scummy this game, so the sheer number of people pushing me is absurd. Go ahead, if you think I'm scum at this point in the game then I implore you to make that case so I can systematically destroy it, because I'm absolutely town and I refuse to be shoved down by this foolery. And don't use crap like my associations with people who haven't even flipped yet, because that just won't fly here in LyLo. We don't have the luxury of getting to be wrong again.
Yeah, because you specifically went after me instead of a strict dichotomy
Quote from Grapefruit »
Says I flip flopped on him purely because of VC which isn't true.
Okay, same as cyan then, why, make a real case.
Quote from Grapefruit »
And said some nonsense about it not being surprising he'd try to pocket me that makes no sense given the timeline of events.
What part doesn't make sense to you? One of your points was that you feel like I could have been trying to pocket you, and you take that to be subterfuge. My counter point was that I openly stated on day one that you're someone in this game I had originally planned to try and pocket, but that didn't pan out.
Quote from Grapefruit »
Also he just said he wants to pursue me tomorrow and has taken no stance today.
This is just blatantly untrue. I laid my thoughts out immediately.
Quote from Grapefruit »
@Shadow Since you think we need to solve the Rhand v Mind puzzle what is your stance on it?
As I've already stated, I lean towards Rhand being scum currently with an emphasis on mechanical reasons. And what exactly do you mean by saying "Since you think we need to solve..." Do you not think it needs solved?
Like what could be the possible use of a flavor cop?
This was my exact thought when I received this role, and also why I think Mind is town; my role strongly suggests that the flavor names do in fact matter, otherwise my role is no better than a visitor.
I'm going to call baloney on Shadow's claim. In 1515, he throws out a "random" question of "who are the villains". Many posts go by with no one responding, so I think he figured his name cop fake claim was ok to move forward on. In 1532, he indicates that he (hopes) moving forward with claims will help. Shortly thereafter, Rhand indicates that some of the flipped roles could be seen as sort of villains (but redeemable). That's when Shadow expresses confusion about his role. I don't see him saying "I think claims will help" without actually understanding the source material and seeing a pattern of "all those dead town are good guys in the books, so a name claim will clear everything up!"
I've not read the flavor material, but my wiki entry certainly does not make me sound like a hero.
And I'm a town vanilla.
So I think Shadow's claim is fake. The only reason I could see for a name cop in a game like this (where some of the flipped town are clearly questionable "good guys", and my own flavor role is certainly questionable) would be to catch scum in lies. And why would scum need to lie about their names when they see questionable names coming up on flipped town bodies?
It just doesn't jive.
@Shadow: If I read correctly, you targeted Mind last Night and got "Vin" (or some variation), correct? Who did you target N1?
This really makes me want to say that Shadow = scum, Shadow is defending Mind, therefore Mind = scum...but there's a lot of wifom there, so I'm not jumping to conclusions yet.
I still haven't had a chance to do my meta check on Rhand. I'll bend some effort to that later today, hopefully.
This really makes me want to say that Shadow = scum, Shadow is defending Mind, therefore Mind = scum...but there's a lot of wifom there, so I'm not jumping to conclusions yet.
There isn't that much WIFOM involved when it's lynch or lose. Also, a little bit ago shadow was on my case about wanting to vote him instead of resolving the mind/rhand dichotomy. Which is just a subtle way of saying we should be voting mind and not shadow.
I'm honestly starting to wonder again if Mind is even scum, but it's like..if he is town, we are going to mislynch him at some point and lose the game for it, so, might as well get it out of the way now rather than drag this game on for another month after lynching scum shadow and scum grape and then lose to mislynching mind anyway, you know?
Also, lol @ the only result shadow giving us being someone that we think is on his scum team. I'll be dumb-founded if he can provide a result from someone that hasn't claimed already/isn't a scum suspect.
This is just starting to get silly/dumb at this point.
Not a "true" breadcrumb, as I was hoping to completely obfuscate my role and draw a night kill, but my first reaction to Mind's claim was inquiring about the flavor (because it matters to my role).
Cantrip, yes Mindreaver came up as Vin, and I used my ability night one to confirm that Grapefruit was actually untargetable. Part of the reason I was willing to do that was because of how unless my ability is anyway, so it seemed like a good use of it.So let's say we lynch scum today.
Grapefruit claimed Clubs
Hunt claimed Ham
Rhand claimed Spook
(No one else alive has claimed flavor that I recall, so if you have, tell me now)
So I will target someone other than those, and hope that that person is not the NK. I'm not going to say ahead of time, because even if that person is town and in the PoE, scum can afford to shoot them just to make me unable to prove my claim and thus get lynched to end the game.
This really makes me want to say that Shadow = scum, Shadow is defending Mind, therefore Mind = scum...but there's a lot of wifom there, so I'm not jumping to conclusions yet.
There isn't that much WIFOM involved when it's lynch or lose.
There's *plenty* of WIFOM. It all depends on (if Shadow is scum) how Shadow thinks town perceives him. If he thinks he's being more town-read than scum-read, then he pushes that scum!Mind is town, knowing that a mislynch on Rhand wins the game. If he thinks he's being more scum-read than town-read, then he pushes that town!Mind is town, hoping that the thread will perceive Mind as scum by association.
Quote from Cyan »
Also, a little bit ago shadow was on my case about wanting to vote him instead of resolving the mind/rhand dichotomy. Which is just a subtle way of saying we should be voting mind and not shadow.
Why is that a subtle way of saying we should be voting Mind and not Shadow, as opposed to voting Rhand and not Shadow? (To be clear, if I understand you correctly, it sounds like you're saying that Shadow defending against your attack is Shadow subtly pushing for you to vote Mind, despite Shadow stating that he thinks Mind is town; how did you arrive at that conclusion?)
Quote from Cyan »
I'm honestly starting to wonder again if Mind is even scum, but it's like..if he is town, we are going to mislynch him at some point and lose the game for it, so, might as well get it out of the way now rather than drag this game on for another month after lynching scum shadow and scum grape and then lose to mislynching mind anyway, you know?
Re the bolded: stop being an ass. You say you don't play dirty? You need to look up "play dirty" in a dictionary.
Re the rest: Frickin...I hate how appealing and logical I find this argument, while simultaneously rebelling at the idea of following you on to Mind. This is why I'm not a drinking man...
I feel like Cyan and Mind voting comes from a scum mindset of safety. Scum are cool voting in LYLO because they know there's no risk. Town aren't going to run anyone up quickly, and if they're voting town and a quickwagon occurs, they won't receive as much heat for being on the front of the wagon as those who pushed it to lynch. And if they're voting a buddy, then even a quickwagon with no chance for them to back off buys them some town pants.
I feel like Cyan and Mind voting comes from a scum mindset of safety. Scum are cool voting in LYLO because they know there's no risk. Town aren't going to run anyone up quickly, and if they're voting town and a quickwagon occurs, they won't receive as much heat for being on the front of the wagon as those who pushed it to lynch. And if they're voting a buddy, then even a quickwagon with no chance for them to back off buys them some town pants.
I'm going to specifically disagree on the Mind point; if you and another person are a strict dichotomy, then not only is voting the other person logical, not voting can be suspect.
I've held off on this in case he had followup, but like. I think there's literally no chance Mind is town here.
Scroll back and look at his vote on Rhand. That is a not a vote on someone he thinks is scum. He's not a dumb guy, presumably. He knows how the thread is perceiving him and the current game state. Town just does not drop a 'Well this is easy' vote on someone and make zero attempt to convince anyone that the person that they now "know" is scum, instead of themselves.
I can at least buy the reactions from Shadow and Grape as plausibly coming from town - a kind of panic that if they are lynched (as town), town loses. Mind has none of that panic or fear, he's just going through the motions.
It's kind of a mindset thing, where if someone doesn't care about their lynch in this point, they are either town who is willing to basically lose because they can't be bothered to put in any effort, or they're scum who knows the game doesn't end with their lynch.
I've held off on this in case he had followup, but like. I think there's literally no chance Mind is town here.
Scroll back and look at his vote on Rhand. That is a not a vote on someone he thinks is scum. He's not a dumb guy, presumably. He knows how the thread is perceiving him and the current game state. Town just does not drop a 'Well this is easy' vote on someone and make zero attempt to convince anyone that the person that they now "know" is scum, instead of themselves.
I can at least buy the reactions from Shadow and Grape as plausibly coming from town - a kind of panic that if they are lynched (as town), town loses. Mind has none of that panic or fear, he's just going through the motions.
It's kind of a mindset thing, where if someone doesn't care about their lynch in this point, they are either town who is willing to basically lose because they can't be bothered to put in any effort, or they're scum who knows the game doesn't end with their lynch.
Why is Mind specifically scum and not town that's given up? Looking at this game, there has barely been a point where mind hasn't been under pressure, so him checking out isn't that unlikely.
I realize that I did something similar with Hunt in the revolution game, so this has the potential to be a huge fool me twice scenario, but can people suspend their disbelief of my role for 3 seconds and give me a decent reason my role would exist in the same world where the main flavor protagonist is scum? The only thing I can really come up with is that my role was intentionally designed to be worse than vanilla town.
Also Hunt, I really think you should weigh in here.
I'm having a lot of trouble shaking out of the narrative (is narrative the right word? Maybe not quite) I'm seeing.
Like, everything that's happening in the thread just makes it look like it's Mind/Shadow/Grape/X, where this is scum theater desperately trying to distance for future days, while simultaneously ignoring the dichotomy to hope that we vote Rhand and just win today.
I know that's bad and lazy, but like.
Hunt is confirmed Town.
I'm Town.
I think JoeTerry, Cyan, and Cantrip are all extremely likely to be town.
That leaves Mind, Shadow, Grape, Typhrous, Rhand.
And everything that's happening is just kind of confirmation biasing me into that world, where the scum team knows Mind is going down, and is panicking and desperately trying to distance - yet still kind of ignoring the dichotomy to hope that they still can win today.
For that /not/ to be the world that we're in, I think multiple of Cyan/Cantrip/JoeTerry have to be scum. And I will literally eat a shoe if Cyan and Cantrip are scum together this game. Faux leather, probably. Olive oil, salt, pepper, lightly grilled. It'll be just like my mother's cooking.
I've held off on this in case he had followup, but like. I think there's literally no chance Mind is town here.
Scroll back and look at his vote on Rhand. That is a not a vote on someone he thinks is scum. He's not a dumb guy, presumably. He knows how the thread is perceiving him and the current game state. Town just does not drop a 'Well this is easy' vote on someone and make zero attempt to convince anyone that the person that they now "know" is scum, instead of themselves.
I can at least buy the reactions from Shadow and Grape as plausibly coming from town - a kind of panic that if they are lynched (as town), town loses. Mind has none of that panic or fear, he's just going through the motions.
It's kind of a mindset thing, where if someone doesn't care about their lynch in this point, they are either town who is willing to basically lose because they can't be bothered to put in any effort, or they're scum who knows the game doesn't end with their lynch.
Why is Mind specifically scum and not town that's given up? Looking at this game, there has barely been a point where mind hasn't been under pressure, so him checking out isn't that unlikely.
I guess it's mostly that I refuse the believe that someone would just check out of the game at a 6 vs. 4 mylo, when they have information that someone is 100% definitive scum. That's the kind of thing that would completely re-energize me, and I'd dive back into the game, make a case, and desperately try to swing the game around. I /know/ that person is scum. I'd want to prove it. I'd appeal to the people town reading me, I'd have passion and fire and idk.
I know I shouldn't project how I'd behave on other people, but the way Mind is acting here just makes zero sense to me as coming from town. If he is town acting like this we probably just lose.
I'm not claiming flavor, Shadow can consider targeting me, etc.
I'm Town Vanilla. I typed and re-typed so many posts at Terry that he was misunderstanding what I was saying with regards to my role, but ultimately decided to leave it ambiguous and maybe I'd eat a bullet or roleblocks instead of other PR's.
I realize that I did something similar with Hunt in the revolution game, so this has the potential to be a huge fool me twice scenario, but can people suspend their disbelief of my role for 3 seconds and give me a decent reason my role would exist in the same world where the main flavor protagonist is scum? The only thing I can really come up with is that my role was intentionally designed to be worse than vanilla town.
Also Hunt, I really think you should weigh in here.
Strictly from a design perspective the role would only make sense as an anti-setup/mod-gaming element. Or to create moments exactly like the one that is happening. It'd be kind of heavy handed and not something I'm a huge fan of from a design perspective (if you are town), but it's at least more interesting than a miller or town roleblocker or something in terms of making people go ???
I think it's more likely that you're just making it up to try and save Mindreaver, because the role doesn't make a whole lot of sense otherwise.
I've held off on this in case he had followup, but like. I think there's literally no chance Mind is town here.
Scroll back and look at his vote on Rhand. That is a not a vote on someone he thinks is scum. He's not a dumb guy, presumably. He knows how the thread is perceiving him and the current game state. Town just does not drop a 'Well this is easy' vote on someone and make zero attempt to convince anyone that the person that they now "know" is scum, instead of themselves.
I can at least buy the reactions from Shadow and Grape as plausibly coming from town - a kind of panic that if they are lynched (as town), town loses. Mind has none of that panic or fear, he's just going through the motions.
It's kind of a mindset thing, where if someone doesn't care about their lynch in this point, they are either town who is willing to basically lose because they can't be bothered to put in any effort, or they're scum who knows the game doesn't end with their lynch.
Why is Mind specifically scum and not town that's given up? Looking at this game, there has barely been a point where mind hasn't been under pressure, so him checking out isn't that unlikely.
I guess it's mostly that I refuse the believe that someone would just check out of the game at a 6 vs. 4 mylo, when they have information that someone is 100% definitive scum. That's the kind of thing that would completely re-energize me, and I'd dive back into the game, make a case, and desperately try to swing the game around. I /know/ that person is scum. I'd want to prove it. I'd appeal to the people town reading me, I'd have passion and fire and idk.
I know I shouldn't project how I'd behave on other people, but the way Mind is acting here just makes zero sense to me as coming from town. If he is town acting like this we probably just lose.
I'd be the same way, but I know that mind has disappeared even as town before, and in general he's not around on weekends, so the lack of participation from him specifically is more of a null tell.
Re the bolded: stop being an ass. You say you don't play dirty? You need to look up "play dirty" in a dictionary.
This is a word that I use literally in my regular speech. I don't know why you're having such a hangup with it but like..get the **** over it. I don't know what else to tell you.
Also, I challenge you to find one example of me playing dirty EVER in the history of mafia. I've taken careful and obvious(in retrospect) effort to avoid exactly this in the past. I have a certain sense of decorum that I believe should be upheld in this game, and I have always lived by that.
I'm having a lot of trouble shaking out of the narrative (is narrative the right word? Maybe not quite) I'm seeing.
Like, everything that's happening in the thread just makes it look like it's Mind/Shadow/Grape/X, where this is scum theater desperately trying to distance for future days, while simultaneously ignoring the dichotomy to hope that we vote Rhand and just win today.
I know that's bad and lazy, but like.
Hunt is confirmed Town.
I'm Town.
I think JoeTerry, Cyan, and Cantrip are all extremely likely to be town.
That leaves Mind, Shadow, Grape, Typhrous, Rhand.
And everything that's happening is just kind of confirmation biasing me into that world, where the scum team knows Mind is going down, and is panicking and desperately trying to distance - yet still kind of ignoring the dichotomy to hope that they still can win today.
For that /not/ to be the world that we're in, I think multiple of Cyan/Cantrip/JoeTerry have to be scum. And I will literally eat a shoe if Cyan and Cantrip are scum together this game. Faux leather, probably. Olive oil, salt, pepper, lightly grilled. It'll be just like my mother's cooking.
Figuring out whether Rhand or Typh is the last scum is going to be painful and involves considerable amounts of WIFOM, which grape is, of course, happily piling onto even now. But that's a conversation for the last day of the 3, after these 3 comically obvious lynches are dealt with.
I realize that I did something similar with Hunt in the revolution game, so this has the potential to be a huge fool me twice scenario, but can people suspend their disbelief of my role for 3 seconds and give me a decent reason my role would exist in the same world where the main flavor protagonist is scum? The only thing I can really come up with is that my role was intentionally designed to be worse than vanilla town.
Also Hunt, I really think you should weigh in here.
Strictly from a design perspective the role would only make sense as an anti-setup/mod-gaming element. Or to create moments exactly like the one that is happening. It'd be kind of heavy handed and not something I'm a huge fan of from a design perspective (if you are town), but it's at least more interesting than a miller or town roleblocker or something in terms of making people go ???
I think it's more likely that you're just making it up to try and save Mindreaver, because the role doesn't make a whole lot of sense otherwise.
I realize that I did something similar with Hunt in the revolution game, so this has the potential to be a huge fool me twice scenario, but can people suspend their disbelief of my role for 3 seconds and give me a decent reason my role would exist in the same world where the main flavor protagonist is scum? The only thing I can really come up with is that my role was intentionally designed to be worse than vanilla town.
Also Hunt, I really think you should weigh in here.
Strictly from a design perspective the role would only make sense as an anti-setup/mod-gaming element. Or to create moments exactly like the one that is happening. It'd be kind of heavy handed and not something I'm a huge fan of from a design perspective (if you are town), but it's at least more interesting than a miller or town roleblocker or something in terms of making people go ???
I think it's more likely that you're just making it up to try and save Mindreaver, because the role doesn't make a whole lot of sense otherwise.
Why though? With 4 scum still alive, why on earth would scum!me (or any scum for that matter) scramble and make stuff up to save a buddy when the town literally has to chain lynch all 4 of them to win? Even if scum!me smelled a close victory, it wouldn't make sense to nose dive with a claim that I knew from the get go would garner raised eyebrows at the least. I actually toyed with not claiming completely, but that seemed even worse.
You're defending yourself, you're defending Mind, but like. There are 4 scum alive. Show me your thought process as you walk through the playerlist and solve the game. Convince me that you and Mind can both be town, and who would be the scum in that world. I need you to do this and not just feed into the constant cycle that makes it look even more like a Mind/Shadow/x/x world. Because the more you focus on defense here the more it feels like you're going all in to try and get the winning mislynch today, in Rhand.
Like, what you're doing isn't working. If you're town I need something different. I need to be convinced that I'm wrong, because otherwise everything I see just fits into the lens that I'm right.
Hey Cyan, you're ignoring me, and it's annoying and really dumb. Go read some of my scum games and tell me with a straight face that I make up such a weak and useless claim in LyLo as scum when I could have been open for absolutely anything that targets.
Or better yet actually case me instead of putting this game on lock, especially considering you've been wishing this game was over for days.
But the Grapefruit thing N1 would make him a scum targetable PR of some kind I guess? I guess he could assume Grape was telling truth and would have used his ability N1. Or they could both be scum. Or Shadow's actually the rolecop and Mind is a goon. Idk.
I kind of want Shadow to be town here because the way he volunteered to test Grape's claim felt really town, and locking himself into a claim as scum only for it to be....flavor cop seems.... suboptimal?
@Rhand
I don't want to tip my hand yet. Soon I can tell you where I'm at.
Mind/Rhand is a dichotomy. I don't think that's an aggro bus. Leaning heavily towards Mind as scum at this stage.
I think Typh is scum for angleshooty OoG reasons.
Shadow makes tons of sense as scum with both Rhand and Mind. And his "confirming" my role after pushing me is the sort of pocket plays he loves to make as scum.
At this point I realized I have almost no read on Cyan. I have a voice in my head saying he's town for the vote on AG, but I realize he's the one who put it there.
I think Shadow is the safest lynch today as each kill narrows the pool and others aren't as firm in their town block as I am. Not opposed to a Mind lynch at all, just think Shadow makes sense in more teams and I can see the parallels from this game to overwatch.
Gruffin: NeighborizerAG: VT
Bur: Desperado
GJ: VT
KJ: VT
Rod: Follower
Grape: 1 shot Cloaker
Rhand: VT
Hunt: Bulletproof
Mind: Vanilla cop
Shadow: Flavor Cop
Cyan: No claim? I thought there was a VT claim but couldn't find one in his ISO.
Cantrip: No claim
Quix: No claim
SJT: No claim
Typh: No claim
Hum.
Talk to me more about how scum!Shadow and town!Mindreaver make any sense?
Cyan is confirmed by Rodemy to have targeted no one N1, but unclaimed beyond that.
Vote Count 1.06 (9 to lynch)
[5] Mindreaver - Cantripmancer, Apocado, Cyan, shadowlancerx, Huntzilla
[2] Bur - Grapefruit21, AtheistGod
[2] Gentleman Johnny - Kitbits, Rhand
[2] Gruffinchops - Mindreaver, TheRealStinkyJoeTerry
[1] TheRealStinkyJoeTerry - Bur
[1] Apocado - LogicoftheVI
[1] AtheistGod - Gruffinchops
Not Voting: Cythare, Gentleman Johnny
Shadow is off by the next VC and Cyan by the one after
[3] Mindreaver - Cantripmancer, Apocado, Huntzilla
[2] Bur - Grapefruit21, AtheistGod
[2] Gruffinchops - Mindreaver, TheRealStinkyJoeTerry
[2] Grapefruit21 - Rhand, shadowlancerx
[1] Apocado - LogicoftheVI
[1] Cyan - Gruffinchops
[1] Gentleman Johnny - Kitbits
[1] AtheistGod - Gentleman Johnny
Not Voting: Cythare, Cyan, Bur
Shadow's vote tracking across D1 is super inconsistent. He is off and back on Mind many times and is making me want to conf bias them as buddies based on that.
On the other hand entirely I think these few vote counts tell a compelling cyan/shadow buddy story.
[4] Huntzilla - Grapefruit21, Cyan, Gentleman Johnny, Gruffinchops
[4] Grapefruit21 - Rodemy, shadowlancerx, killjoy, Rhand
[2] AtheistGod - Mindreaver, Huntzilla
[1] Cyan - TheRealStinkyJoeTerry
[1] Bur - AtheistGod
[1] Mindreaver - quixotic72
Not Voting: fulcrum, Bur, Cantripmancer
Vote Count 1.16 (9 to lynch)
[5] Huntzilla - Grapefruit21, Cyan, Gentleman Johnny, Gruffinchops, Rodemy
[3] Grapefruit21 - shadowlancerx, killjoy, Rhand
[2] AtheistGod - Mindreaver, Huntzilla
[1] Cyan - TheRealStinkyJoeTerry
[1] Bur - AtheistGod
[1] Mindreaver - quixotic72
Not Voting: fulcrum, Bur, Cantripmancer
Vote Count 1.17 (9 to lynch)
[5] Huntzilla - Cyan, Gentleman Johnny, Gruffinchops, Rodemy, killjoy
[3] AtheistGod - Mindreaver, Huntzilla, Grapefruit21
[1] Grapefruit21 - Rhand
[1] Cyan - TheRealStinkyJoeTerry
[1] Bur - AtheistGod
[1] Mindreaver - quixotic72
Not Voting: fulcrum, Bur, Cantripmancer, shadowlancerx
Vote Count 1.18 (9 to lynch)
[7] Huntzilla - Cyan, Gentleman Johnny, Gruffinchops, Rodemy, killjoy, Cantripmancer, shadowlancerx
[4] AtheistGod - Mindreaver, Huntzilla, Grapefruit21, fulcrum
[1] Grapefruit21 - Rhand
[1] Cyan - TheRealStinkyJoeTerry
[1] Bur - AtheistGod
[1] Mindreaver - quixotic72
Not Voting: Bur
On the Cyan EoD switch that he's been holding up as proof of towniness. Yes it prevented a no lynch and took away the opportunity for town to switch and vote Hunt but it also is proof to be held up later of towniness.
So D1 summary Cyan scum worlds look less likely (but possible) but Mind/Shadow/Typh works fine.
Vote Count 2.04 (8 to lynch)
[5] TheRealStinkyJoeTerry - Rhand, Cyan, killjoy, shadowlancerx, Huntzilla
[3] Mindreaver - Rodemy, Cantripmancer, fulcrum
[1] Bur - quixotic72
[1] Huntzilla - Grapefruit21
[1] Cyan - TheRealStinkyJoeTerry
[1] quixotic72 - Bur
Not Voting: Mindreaver, Gruffinchops
This is the first D2 wagon that sticks out to me. Cyan and Shadow voting together again. Not sure what to make of it, but they are together a ton.
Fulcrum spends a bit of time on Mind on D2. Seems like a slight blow to my fulcrum/typh theory. Could have been thinking it's a lost cause and get the bus in but that is biased thinking by me.
Another blow to the cyan as scum world is it puts all three active scum onto KJ. I guess that probably has to be the case given my reads on SJT and Cantrip (and is why I really need to do due diligence there), but it's still feels like it should be unlikely.
So conclusions based on VC's Shadow looks more scummy than Mind. I paid no attention to Rhand which was a mistake I'll try to rectify tomorrow. Same with Cantrip.
Either way I feel comfortable with voting Shadow right now, but going to wait for claims to play out.
FOS: Shadow
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GzrjwOQpAl0
Shadow can't be scum without Mind, not after EOD yesterday. If Mind and KJ are both town, shadow clearly just piles on the wagon of the role that the scum knows is an investigative one.
I am indeed Vanilla Town.
Like, I'm just kind of trying to wrap my head around your thought process where instead of trying to figure that out, you... go for someone else entirely. It's just not a progression that makes logical sense to me. Instead of figuring out how he fits with the two possible scum, you try to isolate him as scum independent of the information in the thread.
Cyan, for real though, you just finished a game with two watcher roles and my being a flavor cop somehow doesn't fit with an actual investigation role? Really?
Okay, Grape, you're flip flopping on me solely because of VCA? Like for real? And to the extent that you actually think lynching me is better than one of the 2 people that has absolutely confirmed scum between them? Also, saying you are worried that I might be interested in pocketing you is not something that should come as a shock considering I blatantly said day one that I wanted to pocket you before I felt like you were scummy.
I know for a fact I've not been scummy this game, so the sheer number of people pushing me is absurd. Go ahead, if you think I'm scum at this point in the game then I implore you to make that case so I can systematically destroy it, because I'm absolutely town and I refuse to be shoved down by this foolery. And don't use crap like my associations with people who haven't even flipped yet, because that just won't fly here in LyLo. We don't have the luxury of getting to be wrong again.
I agree there is 100% scum in those two, but I started looking at vote counts to try and sort the whole thing out Shadow is the main thing that jumped out at me. Mindreaver is highly like to be scum as well but I've been back and forth on Rhand all day and don't trust myself to read him without bias at this stage.
@Cyan what you say makes sense with regards to shadow and Mind together.
Vote Rhand
Cyan says I'm bussing and continues to try to solve the game. That feels like a town reaction to me.
Quix expresses some genuine confusion at my approach given I'm ignoring the dichotomy between Rhand and Mind. And asks me to explain my thought process.
Shadow on the other hand knee jerk scum reads me. Says I flip flopped on him purely because of VC which isn't true. And said some nonsense about it not being surprising he'd try to pocket me that makes no sense given the timeline of events.
Also he just said he wants to pursue me tomorrow and has taken no stance today.
@Shadow Since you think we need to solve the Rhand v Mind puzzle what is your stance on it?
What do you make of Shadow pushing me several times during D1 and only taking his vote off when he went to Huntzilla's wagon? How about the fact that I followed you to AG at EoD1 but Shadow stayed on Hunt?
[7] killjoy - Rhand, Cyan, Grapefruit21, shadowlancerx, Mindreaver, quixotic72, Huntzilla
[4] Mindreaver - TheRealStinkyJoeTerry, Rodemy, Cantripmancer, killjoy
Not Voting: Typhrous
I stared a lot more at this VC today.
Decided to do some coloring to see if it helped it make anymore sense.
[7] killjoy - Rhand, Cyan, Grapefruit21, shadowlancerx, Mindreaver, quixotic72, Huntzilla
[4] Mindreaver - TheRealStinkyJoeTerry, Rodemy, Cantripmancer, killjoy
Not Voting: Typhrous
This is leaving out my scum reads as I don't trust myself. Well except Typh but it's for OoG reasons. Looking at this and knowing KJ flipped town there has to be at least 2 scum on KJ's wagon. Assuming it's mind and Shadow for reasons discussed elsewhere we get this.
[7] killjoy - Rhand, Cyan, Grapefruit21, shadowlancerx, Mindreaver, quixotic72, Huntzilla
[4] Mindreaver - TheRealStinkyJoeTerry, Rodemy, Cantripmancer, killjoy
Not Voting: Typhrous
Rhand moves to Green because of the dichotomy between him and Mind. That leaves Cyan and Cantrip as the only two players without a strong read on them. I don't like the look of the game once I get to here. Cyan has compelling VC reasons to not be scum and Cantrip behavioural ones (though I still need to reread as I'm not as confident in that as I should be). I'd have to reevaluate my SJT and Quixotic reads if we progressed to here, but I don't feel good at all about the game state.
If I go the other direction and assume Mind is town and Rhand is scum the vote count make no sense with the reads I have.
[7] killjoy - Rhand, Cyan, Grapefruit21, shadowlancerx, Mindreaver, quixotic72, Huntzilla
[4] Mindreaver - TheRealStinkyJoeTerry, Rodemy, Cantripmancer, killjoy
Not Voting: Typhrous
The given the flips of Rod and KJ there can't be more than two scum on the mind wagon. And the scum team would know that Mindreaver's claim was legit. So we wouldn't expect a large pile onto KJ. So scum team would have to be almost exactly Rhand, Typh, RSJT, and Cantrip. Cyan doesn't make sense as scum in this scenario as they wouldn't have jump started a counter wagon to a PR with two votes. Shadow is possible in place of either RJST or Cantrip.
The worlds where Rhand as scum are more difficult to make work looking at that vote count and pretty much require Cantrip to be scum. This makes me feel much better about voting for mind and I'm willing to do so after I finally take a deeper look at Cantrips posts.
Has anyone done an ISO with analysis on him recently to save me a bit of effort? Either way that is tomorrow's mission: reading Cantrip.
Yeah, because you specifically went after me instead of a strict dichotomy Okay, same as cyan then, why, make a real case. What part doesn't make sense to you? One of your points was that you feel like I could have been trying to pocket you, and you take that to be subterfuge. My counter point was that I openly stated on day one that you're someone in this game I had originally planned to try and pocket, but that didn't pan out. This is just blatantly untrue. I laid my thoughts out immediately. As I've already stated, I lean towards Rhand being scum currently with an emphasis on mechanical reasons. And what exactly do you mean by saying "Since you think we need to solve..." Do you not think it needs solved?
I need claims from those of you that haven't.
Like what could be the possible use of a flavor cop?
I fully agree with you, but it's still in our best interest to try to make him prove it, you know?
I mean like..why would scum ever make up this kind of role?
I've not read the flavor material, but my wiki entry certainly does not make me sound like a hero.
And I'm a town vanilla.
So I think Shadow's claim is fake. The only reason I could see for a name cop in a game like this (where some of the flipped town are clearly questionable "good guys", and my own flavor role is certainly questionable) would be to catch scum in lies. And why would scum need to lie about their names when they see questionable names coming up on flipped town bodies?
It just doesn't jive.
@Shadow: If I read correctly, you targeted Mind last Night and got "Vin" (or some variation), correct? Who did you target N1?
This really makes me want to say that Shadow = scum, Shadow is defending Mind, therefore Mind = scum...but there's a lot of wifom there, so I'm not jumping to conclusions yet.
I still haven't had a chance to do my meta check on Rhand. I'll bend some effort to that later today, hopefully.
There isn't that much WIFOM involved when it's lynch or lose. Also, a little bit ago shadow was on my case about wanting to vote him instead of resolving the mind/rhand dichotomy. Which is just a subtle way of saying we should be voting mind and not shadow.
I'm honestly starting to wonder again if Mind is even scum, but it's like..if he is town, we are going to mislynch him at some point and lose the game for it, so, might as well get it out of the way now rather than drag this game on for another month after lynching scum shadow and scum grape and then lose to mislynching mind anyway, you know?
This is just starting to get silly/dumb at this point.
Cantrip, yes Mindreaver came up as Vin, and I used my ability night one to confirm that Grapefruit was actually untargetable. Part of the reason I was willing to do that was because of how unless my ability is anyway, so it seemed like a good use of it.
So let's say we lynch scum today.
Grapefruit claimed Clubs
Hunt claimed Ham
Rhand claimed Spook
(No one else alive has claimed flavor that I recall, so if you have, tell me now)
So I will target someone other than those, and hope that that person is not the NK. I'm not going to say ahead of time, because even if that person is town and in the PoE, scum can afford to shoot them just to make me unable to prove my claim and thus get lynched to end the game.
Why is that a subtle way of saying we should be voting Mind and not Shadow, as opposed to voting Rhand and not Shadow? (To be clear, if I understand you correctly, it sounds like you're saying that Shadow defending against your attack is Shadow subtly pushing for you to vote Mind, despite Shadow stating that he thinks Mind is town; how did you arrive at that conclusion?)
Re the bolded: stop being an ass. You say you don't play dirty? You need to look up "play dirty" in a dictionary.
Re the rest: Frickin...I hate how appealing and logical I find this argument, while simultaneously rebelling at the idea of following you on to Mind. This is why I'm not a drinking man...
I feel like Cyan and Mind voting comes from a scum mindset of safety. Scum are cool voting in LYLO because they know there's no risk. Town aren't going to run anyone up quickly, and if they're voting town and a quickwagon occurs, they won't receive as much heat for being on the front of the wagon as those who pushed it to lynch. And if they're voting a buddy, then even a quickwagon with no chance for them to back off buys them some town pants.
Scroll back and look at his vote on Rhand. That is a not a vote on someone he thinks is scum. He's not a dumb guy, presumably. He knows how the thread is perceiving him and the current game state. Town just does not drop a 'Well this is easy' vote on someone and make zero attempt to convince anyone that the person that they now "know" is scum, instead of themselves.
I can at least buy the reactions from Shadow and Grape as plausibly coming from town - a kind of panic that if they are lynched (as town), town loses. Mind has none of that panic or fear, he's just going through the motions.
It's kind of a mindset thing, where if someone doesn't care about their lynch in this point, they are either town who is willing to basically lose because they can't be bothered to put in any effort, or they're scum who knows the game doesn't end with their lynch.
Also Hunt, I really think you should weigh in here.
Like, everything that's happening in the thread just makes it look like it's Mind/Shadow/Grape/X, where this is scum theater desperately trying to distance for future days, while simultaneously ignoring the dichotomy to hope that we vote Rhand and just win today.
I know that's bad and lazy, but like.
Hunt is confirmed Town.
I'm Town.
I think JoeTerry, Cyan, and Cantrip are all extremely likely to be town.
That leaves Mind, Shadow, Grape, Typhrous, Rhand.
And everything that's happening is just kind of confirmation biasing me into that world, where the scum team knows Mind is going down, and is panicking and desperately trying to distance - yet still kind of ignoring the dichotomy to hope that they still can win today.
For that /not/ to be the world that we're in, I think multiple of Cyan/Cantrip/JoeTerry have to be scum. And I will literally eat a shoe if Cyan and Cantrip are scum together this game. Faux leather, probably. Olive oil, salt, pepper, lightly grilled. It'll be just like my mother's cooking.
I guess it's mostly that I refuse the believe that someone would just check out of the game at a 6 vs. 4 mylo, when they have information that someone is 100% definitive scum. That's the kind of thing that would completely re-energize me, and I'd dive back into the game, make a case, and desperately try to swing the game around. I /know/ that person is scum. I'd want to prove it. I'd appeal to the people town reading me, I'd have passion and fire and idk.
I know I shouldn't project how I'd behave on other people, but the way Mind is acting here just makes zero sense to me as coming from town. If he is town acting like this we probably just lose.
I'm Town Vanilla. I typed and re-typed so many posts at Terry that he was misunderstanding what I was saying with regards to my role, but ultimately decided to leave it ambiguous and maybe I'd eat a bullet or roleblocks instead of other PR's.
Strictly from a design perspective the role would only make sense as an anti-setup/mod-gaming element. Or to create moments exactly like the one that is happening. It'd be kind of heavy handed and not something I'm a huge fan of from a design perspective (if you are town), but it's at least more interesting than a miller or town roleblocker or something in terms of making people go ???
I think it's more likely that you're just making it up to try and save Mindreaver, because the role doesn't make a whole lot of sense otherwise.
This is a word that I use literally in my regular speech. I don't know why you're having such a hangup with it but like..get the **** over it. I don't know what else to tell you.
Also, I challenge you to find one example of me playing dirty EVER in the history of mafia. I've taken careful and obvious(in retrospect) effort to avoid exactly this in the past. I have a certain sense of decorum that I believe should be upheld in this game, and I have always lived by that.
Figuring out whether Rhand or Typh is the last scum is going to be painful and involves considerable amounts of WIFOM, which grape is, of course, happily piling onto even now. But that's a conversation for the last day of the 3, after these 3 comically obvious lynches are dealt with.
You're defending yourself, you're defending Mind, but like. There are 4 scum alive. Show me your thought process as you walk through the playerlist and solve the game. Convince me that you and Mind can both be town, and who would be the scum in that world. I need you to do this and not just feed into the constant cycle that makes it look even more like a Mind/Shadow/x/x world. Because the more you focus on defense here the more it feels like you're going all in to try and get the winning mislynch today, in Rhand.
Like, what you're doing isn't working. If you're town I need something different. I need to be convinced that I'm wrong, because otherwise everything I see just fits into the lens that I'm right.
Or better yet actually case me instead of putting this game on lock, especially considering you've been wishing this game was over for days.