So mini wall time, GJ is fascinating to me this game and I'm surprised he's garnered as little discussion as he has. I think he has some of the towniest posts (this side of Cantrip), but also some of the scummiest. So here is a cross section of some of the standouts to me taken out of order.
*snip*
So long story short I have no clue what to make of GJ. A couple of his posts are the scummiest things I've seen here, but there are enough posts that strike me in such a town way that I'm more inclined to think he's town on the reasoning that I don't think scum GJ is doubling down on that horrible Bur/wagon meta argument. I think that stems from a town mindset of posting from the hip as thoughts come to you. I'd appreciate another set of eyes checking my work and making sure I'm not writing off scum as too scummy to be scum, but I think it just makes a lot more sense as town not obsessing over the smaller details.
This post feels like you spent a lot of time thinking about it, which gives me town vibes from you. On the other hand, though, in 162 you asked me to expand on my GJ read, and made a point to tell other people not to until I had responded. So first off, my apologies for forgetting to respond. But I'm confused. Usually when a player says "I want [player X] to say something before we proceed down this line of discussion", they're looking for a read on player X. So when I didn't respond to your question, I would have expected you to either preface your post with "Well, I was really hoping Cantrip would respond to me, but I'm going to post this anyway" or "Hey, Cantrip, why didn't you respond to my question". Am I misreading your 162 intentions? If not, why didn't you follow up on or even acknowledge my lack of response?
If Mind flips scum, Grape needs some scrutiny for this. Not sure it feels like scum trying to start a counterwagon, especially with the waffling, but it definitely pushes the discussion in another direction (intentionally or not), and it would explain his lack of follow-up w/r/t the question he asked of me.
@GJ (re:#137): all Cythare did was a ptap. How do you get a scumread out of that?
I don't like it. I think there is at least one wolf in the below the mod line, and you have played long enough with me to know how much I tolerate low posters (I also realize the irony of Bur's game Cythare).
Why go the lynch all lurkers route when other things are definitely happening in the thread?
Quote from GJ »
About the @Mindreaver part in your post: you explain him about offsite mechanics and then call his vote a stretch. Does that mean you think Mind is scum casting a vote like that?
I think it's NAI. As far as I am aware, Mind has only played on mtgs, where day chat isn't very common. On other sites, day chat is the standard with a few exceptions. I think Mind legit thought (or believed he could push) the vote thinking it was a slip. I actually think it points to more village points, as I don't know if Mind would push a "slip" like that as a wolf, but it is NAI overall.
Ok. What do you think about how Mind responded to Shadow's pressure?
Quote from GJ »
Why did you not answer my #106 until Cantrip asked for it?
I missed that question, and it wasn't until CAntrip asked about it that I reread your 106, or whatever number it was.
Why tack on the bolded portion? Do you think Rhand is mistaken (or intentionally wrong) about which post he asked you the question? That feels like you're trying to portray yourself as disconnected (to support the whole "I missed your question").
Quote from GJ »
Grapefruit's post is spicy and I like it (Self-serving, I know).
I've seen that term a couple of times; what's your definition of "spicy"? What do you like about Grape's post?
I never wanted this, true. But somebody has to stop the Deepness. And, apparently, Terris is the only place this can be done.
On this fact, however, I don’t have to take the word of the philosophers. I can feel our goal now, sense it, though the others cannot. It... pulses, in my mind, far off in the mountains.
Why go the lynch all lurkers route when other things are definitely happening in the thread?
Except I am not voting Cythare. Merely stating my interest towards that route. I am not exactly a huge fan of Mindreaver which is why I am fine with his wagon, but he has some town equity which is why I am looking elsewhere.
Ok. What do you think about how Mind responded to Shadow's pressure?
Answered. Pretty much said it was NAGL.
Eyebrow Why tack on the bolded portion? Do you think Rhand is mistaken (or intentionally wrong) about which post he asked you the question? That feels like you're trying to portray yourself as disconnected (to support the whole "I missed your question").
I don't actually care. I just don't want to get corrected that it was actually post X, and was too lazy to open up a new tab to view the page. I am not disconnected, he asked me a few questions and I missed one.
Spicy can mean a lot of things. Either a read that is against the concensus, some new information that is really juicy, but basically anything that is against the tide of the game.
Vizzini, is that you?
I have had some pretty good luck with counterwagons. I am not saying Mindreaver is lock town or anything, but he isn't the only one that should get some pressure.
What are you asking here? Cythare's only posted once, but Gruffin has posted a fair amount.
His vote is in a relatively useless spot. AG has maybe one post, and I don't see it doing anything (for the same reason I am not voting Cythare). Not calling out Vi because I thought about voting Avacado for a period of time, and obviously me and Rhand moved onto Joe. So eh.
Don't quite get this, either. Are you again going the "lynch all lurkers" route? If so, what exactly does "the bottom up" look like?
Lowest post count up. More or less it is. Let's put it this way: The more active voices in the thread by maybe Mind are not exactly in my wolf list.
@Mind: Couple things: in your last post regarding me, you say that you don't like my "We'll see how today goes qualifier", specifically why? Regarding my GJ soul read, what makes it insufficient for my read on him at that point?
Any chance I could get a working T/S list from you? I'd like specific reasons for the people on your wagon if you could.
________________________________________________
Wrt the JoeTerry counter wagon, I feel like Mind is the correct lynch of the 2, and I feel like they are soft unaligned, due to the 1-2 jump onto Gruffin for the same reason that seems less likely to come from buddies.
@Cantrip: "If that's true, why push a counterwagon when Mind's wagon is already established and going somewhere?"
Because I don't want the whole thread to focus on 1 guy while we can simultaneously explore other avenues.
Rhand's assertation that I'm not talking about anything but the mechanics in #192 and #194 is pretty far off, considering I feel like I've already spent too much time focussing on my concern with Gruffin's self-consciousness. I haven't been fully invested in this game because it was go-time in my other one. That one finished and I'm ready to put some more time in this one. I'm going to go back a re-read Mindreaver considering what I was able to discern from his scum game in the last game we were in. If get the heebee jeebies on him, I would be fine being a counter wagon. I love a good Day 1 Vote Off. Heck I'll be the counter wagon to anyone, as long as I feel like they are scum.
Why go the lynch all lurkers route when other things are definitely happening in the thread?
Except I am not voting Cythare. Merely stating my interest towards that route. I am not exactly a huge fan of Mindreaver which is why I am fine with his wagon, but he has some town equity which is why I am looking elsewhere.
But you've TWICE pushed that avenue of attack without committing to it. :/
Quote from GJ »
Ok. What do you think about how Mind responded to Shadow's pressure?
Answered. Pretty much said it was NAGL.
Sorry...what does NAGL mean?
Quote from GJ »
Eyebrow Why tack on the bolded portion? Do you think Rhand is mistaken (or intentionally wrong) about which post he asked you the question? That feels like you're trying to portray yourself as disconnected (to support the whole "I missed your question").
I don't actually care. I just don't want to get corrected that it was actually post X, and was too lazy to open up a new tab to view the page. I am not disconnected, he asked me a few questions and I missed one.
...but Rhand SAID the post number in his question. How can you be attacked (or corrected) for miscalling the post that he specified?
Quote from GJ »
Spicy can mean a lot of things. Either a read that is against the concensus, some new information that is really juicy, but basically anything that is against the tide of the game.
Ok, thanks. But you didn't answer the second half: what did you find "spicy" about Grape's post? And, while you're at it, why is you saying that "self-serving"?
Quote from GJ »
Vizzini, is that you?
I have had some pretty good luck with counterwagons. I am not saying Mindreaver is lock town or anything, but he isn't the only one that should get some pressure.
Ok.
Quote from GJ »
What are you asking here? Cythare's only posted once, but Gruffin has posted a fair amount.
His vote is in a relatively useless spot. AG has maybe one post, and I don't see it doing anything (for the same reason I am not voting Cythare). Not calling out Vi because I thought about voting Avacado for a period of time, and obviously me and Rhand moved onto Joe. So eh.
Ah, I thought you were saying "where you at" as in "where are you lurkers at", but you meant "what's your status/gamestate". That makes more sense.
Quote from GJ »
Don't quite get this, either. Are you again going the "lynch all lurkers" route? If so, what exactly does "the bottom up" look like?
Lowest post count up. More or less it is. Let's put it this way: The more active voices in the thread by maybe Mind are not exactly in my wolf list.
So...I tend to see "lynch all lurkers" as a valid strategy only when the thread activity is suffering from a lack of posting by aforementioned lurkers. Why is pursuing the lurkers better than interacting with the players who are posting and giving the lurkers a chance to participate?
@Cantrip: "If that's true, why push a counterwagon when Mind's wagon is already established and going somewhere?"
Because I don't want the whole thread to focus on 1 guy while we can simultaneously explore other avenues.
Oooookay, but you can question and even pressure other players while still committing your vote to your highest scumspect. Is RSTJ scummier to you than Mind?
But you've TWICE pushed that avenue of attack without committing to it. :/
Well I am not saying I should take a shot at 1:33pm in the afternoon, but...
NAGL= Not a good look. This is mostly coming from MU, but partly because I know people are going to be irritated with me
...but Rhand SAID the post number in his question. How can you be attacked (or corrected) for miscalling the post that he specified?
I don't know. My memory is just awful sometimes. I was 95% sure 106 was correct, but didn't want to get called out for not paying attention.
Ok, thanks. But you didn't answer the second half: what did you find "spicy" about Grape's post? And, while you're at it, why is you saying that "self-serving"?
He is right. No one is really chatting about me. I was being referenced every now and then, but not really being called townie, hence the self serving part of me liking it.
Cantrip, I like you. But your line of questioning is making me roll my eyes everytime I answer one. I think you are town, I like that you are hunting, but you are barking up the wrong tree. I am not a wolf, go bug a wolf.
Like for instance, you are trying to question me to figure out on Rhand if I was trying to show a disconnected mindset. Even if I was a wolf, I wouldn't do that as disconnected barely touches my town range and is in a pretty wide range of my wolf game. If anything, I would be more vigilant about posts/questions I responded to. As far as pushing low posters, it's a NAI thing, and I say that as someone who as a wolf, thinks push 0/low posters is basically asking for trouble.
We are 72+ hours in and I am bored. I am waiting for the 5+ players below the mod line to start doing something or I am just going to start ham pushing. I hope there is a vig in this game and they just start shooting the bottom of the pyramid. I don't think the active voices right now are wolves so I like low player killing equity right now.
After reading through Mindreaver, I'm not convinced he's scum. This feels to be genuine frustration. I didn't like that Shadow pushed him around so easily regarding his unvote of Gruffin. Not so much anything that Shadow did wrong more so the fact that Mindreaver, was just like, "Ok I'll unvote, if you leave me alone."
Anyways, to clarify... I feel like overall he reads frustrated town to me, but there were still a couple of marks on his record. I also feel the same way he does about my vote on Gruffin. I wanted to bring attention to something I saw and the best way to do that and have it taken seriously is with a vote. Gruffin is in no danger of being lynched today and my vote on him doesn't really matter until we get closer to the deadline and I need to put my signature on a lynch candidate going into the night.
Cantrip's posting has me feeling town on him. It's a different tone than it was in our Avalon game.
I'm going to keep popping in and out checking up on different players today, but I hate post walls and prefer to do snippets at a time.
So...I tend to see "lynch all lurkers" as a valid strategy only when the thread activity is suffering from a lack of posting by aforementioned lurkers. Why is pursuing the lurkers better than interacting with the players who are posting and giving the lurkers a chance to participate?
Maybe I am just biased because of the games I have played + hosted, but there seems to be this increasing tendency for 3/4+ of the wolf team to be in the low posters. I don't know if we just have a current player pool that absolutely loathes wolfing, but it shows.
It's also even more insanely frustrating on this site.
After reading through Mindreaver, I'm not convinced he's scum. This feels to be genuine frustration. I didn't like that Shadow pushed him around so easily regarding his unvote of Gruffin. Not so much anything that Shadow did wrong more so the fact that Mindreaver, was just like, "Ok I'll unvote, if you leave me alone."
Anyways, to clarify... I feel like overall he reads frustrated town to me, but there were still a couple of marks on his record. I also feel the same way he does about my vote on Gruffin. I wanted to bring attention to something I saw and the best way to do that and have it taken seriously is with a vote. Gruffin is in no danger of being lynched today and my vote on him doesn't really matter until we get closer to the deadline and I need to put my signature on a lynch candidate going into the night.
Cantrip's posting has me feeling town on him. It's a different tone than it was in our Avalon game.
I'm going to keep popping in and out checking up on different players today, but I hate post walls and prefer to do snippets at a time.
...but Rhand SAID the post number in his question. How can you be attacked (or corrected) for miscalling the post that he specified?
I don't know. My memory is just awful sometimes. I was 95% sure 106 was correct, but didn't want to get called out for not paying attention.
I can certainly identify with the bad memory...which is why I almost always check referenced posts. But I rarely question if a player is testing me by mis-citing a post, because how bad of an attack would that have to be?
"Hey, what about post XXX?"
"Oh yeah, here are my thoughts on post XXX. Sorry I missed responding."
"GOTCHA! That wasn't in post XXX, it was post YYY!!! Muahahahahaha!"
...like, I just can't figure out the mindset that is cautious about something like that.
Quote from GJ »
Ok, thanks. But you didn't answer the second half: what did you find "spicy" about Grape's post? And, while you're at it, why is you saying that "self-serving"?
He is right. No one is really chatting about me. I was being referenced every now and then, but not really being called townie, hence the self serving part of me liking it.
Are you aware that being self-conscious can be a scumtell?
Quote from GJ »
Cantrip, I like you. But your line of questioning is making me roll my eyes everytime I answer one. I think you are town, I like that you are hunting, but you are barking up the wrong tree. I am not a wolf, go bug a wolf.
I certainly appreciate you being willing to continue responding and engaging, and your responses haven't been bad, in general. I'll leave you alone for a bit, but you're not off my list. Not by a long shot.
Like for instance, you are trying to question me to figure out on Rhand if I was trying to show a disconnected mindset. Even if I was a wolf, I wouldn't do that as disconnected barely touches my town range and is in a pretty wide range of my wolf game. If anything, I would be more vigilant about posts/questions I responded to. As far as pushing low posters, it's a NAI thing, and I say that as someone who as a wolf, thinks push 0/low posters is basically asking for trouble.
I feel like I'm misunderstanding you. When you say "touches my town range and is in a pretty wide range of my wolf game", it sounds like you're saying "I'm only rarely disconnected as town, but it's often the case when I'm scum." But then your following lines contradict that, so I must be confused as to what "in my range" means?
Quote from GJ »
We are 72+ hours in and I am bored. I am waiting for the 5+ players below the mod line to start doing something or I am just going to start ham pushing. I hope there is a vig in this game and they just start shooting the bottom of the pyramid. I don't think the active voices right now are wolves so I like low player killing equity right now.
You're a regular here; you know that games move at a slower pace.
I pretty much detest the "vig all lurkers because they're lurkers" mentality, but that's in part because I'm sometimes an inadvertent lurker. I don't like lurking in games, but I feel like "oh, lynch/vig the lurk!" is (no offense) lazy coming from town and the path of low hanging fruit for scum.
After reading through Mindreaver, I'm not convinced he's scum. This feels to be genuine frustration. I didn't like that Shadow pushed him around so easily regarding his unvote of Gruffin. Not so much anything that Shadow did wrong more so the fact that Mindreaver, was just like, "Ok I'll unvote, if you leave me alone."
I feel like that's more Mindreaver attempting to appease his attacker (albeit a bit too late) than a town action. The frustration might feel real, but I think it could just as easily come from frustrated scum than town. Personally, I think as town I would leave my vote in that situation (at least until I had a good reason to move it) to show that I wasn't afraid of Shadow. Well, that's not really accurate, as I probably would have moved my vote as soon as the meta argument came to light (or, hey, not even voted in the first place...).
Quote from SJT »
Anyways, to clarify... I feel like overall he reads frustrated town to me, but there were still a couple of marks on his record. I also feel the same way he does about my vote on Gruffin. I wanted to bring attention to something I saw and the best way to do that and have it taken seriously is with a vote. Gruffin is in no danger of being lynched today and my vote on him doesn't really matter until we get closer to the deadline and I need to put my signature on a lynch candidate going into the night.
That last line sounds like an old jedi scum mind trick. "What you saw was of no real consequence; no harm was done. Tell us to move along now."
Quote from SJT »
Cantrip's posting has me feeling town on him. It's a different tone than it was in our Avalon game.
While I'm all about players calling me town, Avalon is a terrible game to reference for my meta. Have you read Overwatch or Blackout 2?
So...I tend to see "lynch all lurkers" as a valid strategy only when the thread activity is suffering from a lack of posting by aforementioned lurkers. Why is pursuing the lurkers better than interacting with the players who are posting and giving the lurkers a chance to participate?
Maybe I am just biased because of the games I have played + hosted, but there seems to be this increasing tendency for 3/4+ of the wolf team to be in the low posters. I don't know if we just have a current player pool that absolutely loathes wolfing, but it shows.
Eh, Shadow and I were pretty solidly active in Overwatch. Brin and I--and I guess to some extent DV--were a little lurky in Avalon, but I feel like that game is again a bad example because the lack of flips naturally degenerated the interest. What games have you been in recently that you've experienced this?
Quote from GJ »
It's also even more insanely frustrating on this site.
@Mind: Couple things: in your last post regarding me, you say that you don't like my "We'll see how today goes qualifier", specifically why? Regarding my GJ soul read, what makes it insufficient for my read on him at that point?
I specifically didn't like that qualifier because of the tacked on nature of the sentence before it. Also, I like you. For now. <-- see how that looks? I'm NOT saying that changing your mind, especially early, is somehow scummy. That's bound to happen. Almost a given right? So if something goes without saying, but you said it anyway, it raises alarm bells. To be fair, I haven't read the other game you mentioned, and that may well be your MO.
Regarding your soul read. I didn't like the progression. It wasn't like GJ didn't have posts at that point. It wasn't like you couldn't specifically mention what you liked. I personally like the thought process on Bur having votes on him, and what that meant. But when pressed, you didn't say tone, or meta, or anything. Soul-read. The kinda thing that could literally mean anything. It didn't help that I already thought Bur wasn't actually pressing you to defend that read. In hindsight, maybe I made mountains out of a molehill there. I'm moving slowly away from that. I'm going to be sooo pissed off if you're scum at the end with Bur, and I flip flop.
Any chance I could get a working T/S list from you? I'd like specific reasons for the people on your wagon if you could.
I will when I get a chance, sick kid today as well as a work catastrophe. So it might be tomorrow during the day. Depends how the night goes. I want to re-read Rhand, because there is a lot there I haven't paid enough attention to.
@Cantrip: Eh. I feel like I'm generally able to read you. If I'm wrong I'll reconsider. But I really don't think I am.
Can you explain the bolded?
Why are you popping in with this without responding to questions posed to you?
Oh that was opportunistic. I'd rather be scum hunting than defending myself, is the answer. But since I feel that noose tightening (5 votes in fact, probably 2 in spirit, is pretty close to scum hammering me if they aren't on the wagon already), I'm trying to do both.
Also, I think I'm fairly caught up with answering questions asked of me at this point, except for the T/S list shadow asked for. Did I miss something?
But since I'm here: SJT, do you feel as if Huntzilla was voting No lynch intentionally or as a joke? About your other 2 posts:
1. Why did you unvote onto Kitbits so quickly? Do you feel there is something off about them?
2. Are you suspicious of Gruffin?
1. All part of me catching up and doing RVS stuff
2. Actually I am. To me, I find that someone caring about a player's read on themselves (Gruffin in this case) at this stage is a bit suspicious. I was kind of hoping he'd answer (#121) before I explained it, but it was really more of a statement than a question, so whatever.
I was also slightly pinged by Gruffin asking others to give their reads on them so Terry latching onto that rang true for me. And jumping at the "slip" and running with it showed a town confirmation bias mindset more than anything else to me. Now I disagree with Terry on Gruff and think she is pretty towny, but her record isn't spotless. And I'm reasonably comfortable that Terry is town as well at this point.
I completely concede the hunt point. It's close to a barn, but better. As for GJ I thought he had voted and not just expressed an agreement with the case.
As for the low hanging fruit your channelling of Boromir is correct, but low hanging fruit doesn't pick itself and you were definitely positioning to pluck some of the easier ones.
After reading through Mindreaver, I'm not convinced he's scum. This feels to be genuine frustration. I didn't like that Shadow pushed him around so easily regarding his unvote of Gruffin. Not so much anything that Shadow did wrong more so the fact that Mindreaver, was just like, "Ok I'll unvote, if you leave me alone."
I feel like that's more Mindreaver attempting to appease his attacker (albeit a bit too late) than a town action. The frustration might feel real, but I think it could just as easily come from frustrated scum than town. Personally, I think as town I would leave my vote in that situation (at least until I had a good reason to move it) to show that I wasn't afraid of Shadow. Well, that's not really accurate, as I probably would have moved my vote as soon as the meta argument came to light (or, hey, not even voted in the first place...)
You know, when I said you were projecting, I meant that you keep saying how YOU would react, directly differently to the way in which I did; and then calling me scum for it. It's fine if you want to do that. But it's completely apples and oranges. I DO things like that as town. I don't know if I'd do things like that as scum, as my only scum game you just saw (and I agree it's not a great example of anything).
All you're proving is that town!mind != scum!cantrip.
Secondly, are you under the impression that Terry and I are aligned here as well?
@logic hope things clear up, would love to have you stay in the game!
@Cantripmancer Initially I had wanted you to respond to suss out your alignment because GJ is a tough read and I think uninfluenced reads on him would have been telling. In the passing time enough people had expressed confidence in your alignment that I got tired of sitting on my post and wanted to get it out as the game had gotten too quiet. Plus I don't think not responding to that question is alignment indicative and saw nothing to gain by calling it out.
Also you never replied to the content, do you have any thoughts on it?
@GJ talk to me about Bur: do you stand by your earlier read him? Can you elaborate at all on the contradiction between clearing him for a fast wagon and clearing his wagon for knowing he's toxic?
@Terry Can you give me some examples of the difference in Cantrip's tone from Avalon to here? I read Avalon and I'm not seeing a difference here. I think I'm agreeing with you on Mindreaver, but I can't get past his response to Shadow when they're posting back and forth earlier. Can you give me your thoughts on that exchange in particular.
After reading through Mindreaver, I'm not convinced he's scum. This feels to be genuine frustration. I didn't like that Shadow pushed him around so easily regarding his unvote of Gruffin. Not so much anything that Shadow did wrong more so the fact that Mindreaver, was just like, "Ok I'll unvote, if you leave me alone."
Anyways, to clarify... I feel like overall he reads frustrated town to me, but there were still a couple of marks on his record. I also feel the same way he does about my vote on Gruffin. I wanted to bring attention to something I saw and the best way to do that and have it taken seriously is with a vote. Gruffin is in no danger of being lynched today and my vote on him doesn't really matter until we get closer to the deadline and I need to put my signature on a lynch candidate going into the night.
Cantrip's posting has me feeling town on him. It's a different tone than it was in our Avalon game.
I'm going to keep popping in and out checking up on different players today, but I hate post walls and prefer to do snippets at a time.
You have 3 votes on you, how do you feel?
I feel fine. I don't know if that's a good thing or a bad thing, but that's my answer.
@Cantrip: Eh. I feel like I'm generally able to read you. If I'm wrong I'll reconsider. But I really don't think I am.
Can you explain the bolded?
Why are you popping in with this without responding to questions posed to you?
Oh that was opportunistic. I'd rather be scum hunting than defending myself, is the answer. But since I feel that noose tightening (5 votes in fact, probably 2 in spirit, is pretty close to scum hammering me if they aren't on the wagon already), I'm trying to do both.
?? You're calling my question to you opportunistic? How so?
Quote from Mind »
Also, I think I'm fairly caught up with answering questions asked of me at this point, except for the T/S list shadow asked for. Did I miss something?
You never responded to my 185, iirc. The question I asked about why "equally guilty" vs "equally innocent" wasn't rhetorical. And at the time, you hadn't responded to Rhand's question in 191, but I guess that was after Cyan's 190, which is what you were responding to at that time. But when you posted, it felt like there were several questions leveled at you that you were ignoring to question Cyan.
After reading through Mindreaver, I'm not convinced he's scum. This feels to be genuine frustration. I didn't like that Shadow pushed him around so easily regarding his unvote of Gruffin. Not so much anything that Shadow did wrong more so the fact that Mindreaver, was just like, "Ok I'll unvote, if you leave me alone."
I feel like that's more Mindreaver attempting to appease his attacker (albeit a bit too late) than a town action. The frustration might feel real, but I think it could just as easily come from frustrated scum than town. Personally, I think as town I would leave my vote in that situation (at least until I had a good reason to move it) to show that I wasn't afraid of Shadow. Well, that's not really accurate, as I probably would have moved my vote as soon as the meta argument came to light (or, hey, not even voted in the first place...)
You know, when I said you were projecting, I meant that you keep saying how YOU would react, directly differently to the way in which I did; and then calling me scum for it. It's fine if you want to do that. But it's completely apples and oranges. I DO things like that as town. I don't know if I'd do things like that as scum, as my only scum game you just saw (and I agree it's not a great example of anything).
All you're proving is that town!mind != scum!cantrip.
This is fair. But this is pretty much the only way I know how to scumhunt. I'm not very good at meta reads, in part because of my memory plus not having time to read (or reread) every game. So I tend to hold actions up to my own metric for the most part and see where they fail the town test. That said...I'm having doubts. Your last few responses have been pretty straightfoward, and you do seem to be pursuing scumhunting despite being under attack. Hmm.
Quote from Mind »
Secondly, are you under the impression that Terry and I are aligned here as well?
I haven't seen anything that says you can't be, but I haven't seen anything other than the similar bad attacks on Gruffin that makes me cautious of that.
@Cantripmancer Initially I had wanted you to respond to suss out your alignment because GJ is a tough read and I think uninfluenced reads on him would have been telling. In the passing time enough people had expressed confidence in your alignment that I got tired of sitting on my post and wanted to get it out as the game had gotten too quiet. Plus I don't think not responding to that question is alignment indicative and saw nothing to gain by calling it out.
Fair enough.
Quote from Grape »
Also you never replied to the content, do you have any thoughts on it?
In general, I agree with a lot of what you said. I'm not as suspicious of his 187 ("Not a huge fan of Mindreaver right now. Shadow gets a little more equity. Cyan still Nai, Cantrip also gets some town equity.") other than the mild possibility that he could be trying to minimize suspicion on Mind (if they're buddies) in a low-key way. And I don't agree with your take on his 50 ("Kitbit pure"), but I can see where you're coming from. Your insights into his 101--especially that he's making game choices from meta-based situations in a game with a lot of new players--were well-articulated. It's frustrating that you're undecided on where you stand with him, but I can understand that based on your explanation.
@Cantripwall #215: I think you are misreading what I was saying. I think it's scummy too, that he just unvoted to appease Shadow. My point was that that was one of those blemishes on his record, but despite that I feel like it's frustrated town. However, you're point is valid that I shouldn't base my meta reads on Avalon.
@Terry Can you give me some examples of the difference in Cantrip's tone from Avalon to here? I read Avalon and I'm not seeing a difference here. I think I'm agreeing with you on Mindreaver, but I can't get past his response to Shadow when they're posting back and forth earlier. Can you give me your thoughts on that exchange in particular.
I'd have to go back and find some good examples, but overall his posts in Avalon felt hallow. I know that could have been because I knew he was scum from the get go. In this game, his posts feel more explorative and sincere. I'll go look for some good examples.
...like, I just can't figure out the mindset that is cautious about something like that.
That's the mindset where I am lazy, but don't want to be seen as lazy.
Are you aware that being self-conscious can be a scumtell?
It's never come up in my 4-5 years of playing. -_-
certainly appreciate you being willing to continue responding and engaging, and your responses haven't been bad, in general. I'll leave you alone for a bit, but you're not off my list. Not by a long shot.
I should be.
I feel like I'm misunderstanding you. When you say "touches my town range and is in a pretty wide range of my wolf game", it sounds like you're saying "I'm only rarely disconnected as town, but it's often the case when I'm scum." But then your following lines contradict that, so I must be confused as to what "in my range" means?
What I am saying is that while I have been disconnected in my town games, it happens more when I am wolf/3rd party. I am obviously aware of my own meta, so I am saying I would consciously try to be vigilant if I were a wolf.
You're a regular here; you know that games move at a slower pace.
I pretty much detest the "vig all lurkers because they're lurkers" mentality, but that's in part because I'm sometimes an inadvertent lurker. I don't like lurking in games, but I feel like "oh, lynch/vig the lurk!" is (no offense) lazy coming from town and the path of low hanging fruit for scum.
Doesn't mean I can't try to throw gasoline everywhere. Vigs should be aimed at either lurkers or counterwagons.
What games have you been in recently that you've experienced this?
My mistborn game, few games from MU, and Bur's recent game. All the wolves were pretty much in the low posting pile.
Why?
Because as you have experienced, lurkers on other sites are posting 4-5 times in a 36 hour period. We are lucky here to get a post every 48 hours from some people.
@Cantrip: Eh. I feel like I'm generally able to read you. If I'm wrong I'll reconsider. But I really don't think I am.
Can you explain the bolded?
Why are you popping in with this without responding to questions posed to you?
Oh that was opportunistic. I'd rather be scum hunting than defending myself, is the answer. But since I feel that noose tightening (5 votes in fact, probably 2 in spirit, is pretty close to scum hammering me if they aren't on the wagon already), I'm trying to do both.
?? You're calling my question to you opportunistic? How so?
You kinda answered this right afterward, but at the time I was responding, I didn't think there was anything outstanding, and I felt like I'd spent 80% of my time responding to questions. It just seemed like you were pulling a GOTCHA here. But I think we're fine. I'll take it back. I'd still like Cyan to answer this though.
and to that guilty/innocent thing, I didn't realize it was an actual question. The answer is, there probably isn't much difference between the two meanings. This is going into OOG stuff, but I write a lot of technical documentation for a living. It's not my primary focus, but I do a fair bit of it. One thing I try to do, and you can probably see it every time I write anything, is that I attempt to not repeat the same words or phrases over and over. At least, not close enough together to be noticed. So I think part of that is what you're reading into there. I'll go see exactly what I said, and what you're questioning, to make sure that I truly didn't mean something different. My gut says I just used the word guilty, and then decided to not write it again.
Sorry, I take back all that language crap. It was true, just not relevant. I should have actually gone and found the quote to respond to instead of mis-remembering it.
I agree with Shadow: your reaction is bad. You talk about me projecting, but you've taken one of the most innocent elements of the game (RVS votes) and labeled them "equally [as] guilty" as your vote. Why isn't your vote "just as innocent" as theirs? Word choice can be very telling.
So you actually supplied the innocent/guilty dynamic here. My vote was completely on purpose, and yes, maybe not the greatest judgment. I'll get that out of the way first, so nobody thinks I'm backing away or trivializing the voting process.
However, when I didn't unvote here, and said "there are other equally guilty votes" I wasn't really talking about the process of voting. But the process of UNVOTING. I felt like Shadow was saying I should have damn well unvoted, when I realized my mistake. Fair. But Gruff was at L-7. Not in danger. There were votes (still are) that were placed as RVS votes, but remain there this very second. Where is the outcry to unvote those? That was the point. Not taking the RVS innocence and somehow saying "oh that RVS vote on Bur was just as bad as my vote on Gruff", but to say "Hey, if I'm getting ***** for not unvoting, how come nobody is looking for THOSE OTHER unvotes, that IMO are just as guilty of being there when they aren't meant to lynch the person".
After reading through Mindreaver, I'm not convinced he's scum. This feels to be genuine frustration. I didn't like that Shadow pushed him around so easily regarding his unvote of Gruffin. Not so much anything that Shadow did wrong more so the fact that Mindreaver, was just like, "Ok I'll unvote, if you leave me alone."
I feel like that's more Mindreaver attempting to appease his attacker (albeit a bit too late) than a town action. The frustration might feel real, but I think it could just as easily come from frustrated scum than town. Personally, I think as town I would leave my vote in that situation (at least until I had a good reason to move it) to show that I wasn't afraid of Shadow. Well, that's not really accurate, as I probably would have moved my vote as soon as the meta argument came to light (or, hey, not even voted in the first place...).
I just got a kick out of this, because I drafted a much more confrontational message that was basically "I do what I want, if don't like it, lump it". But after actually writing that down, I was less pissy and decided to unvote. It might look appeasing, but in reality, I don't want gruff lynched, so it's a fair enough request.
Anyways, to clarify... I feel like overall he reads frustrated town to me, but there were still a couple of marks on his record. I also feel the same way he does about my vote on Gruffin. I wanted to bring attention to something I saw and the best way to do that and have it taken seriously is with a vote. Gruffin is in no danger of being lynched today and my vote on him doesn't really matter until we get closer to the deadline and I need to put my signature on a lynch candidate going into the night.
That last line sounds like an old jedi scum mind trick. "What you saw was of no real consequence; no harm was done. Tell us to move along now."
This was why I was asking if you thought we were aligned, specifically as scum. Just the loaded nature of this comment implies that we'd... have to be? Otherwise, it doesn't make much sense, even if you are fishing for a reaction.
@Mindreaver Do you think scum is pushing you? If so who in particular stands out to you and why?
Actually I don't think pushing is correct. I think Catrip is town, and Shadow is *probably* town. They've pushed me the most, and I suspect that without their contribution we would have GJ voting me, but only because he doesn't "have the feels".
I'm more suspect of the /barned opinions, and the one-liner justifications for votes right now. I think that's where scum would jump on a wagon early. and I think we'd see more of them find "reasons" to pile on if they thought they could make it look organic.
Good tone + you got three votes. And everyone and their grandma knows how easy you are to push as mislynch fodder.
Are you suggesting that there are scum pushing Bur as a mislynch right now? If that’s so, who on his train is scum and why?
I am not. Unless the whole wolf team has no understanding of Bur, I would venture a guess that there are three townies on him. It is still early mind you, but the way it is going, I think that Bur is likely more town. He is also psuedo volume town telling, but that will come later.
I don't get this argument.
Getting town vibes from Rhand and shadow. Cyan is a hard null.
@Mindreaver When you get back on can explain why you think shadow is probably town. I'm not seeing anything that gives me confidence to say one way or another on Shadow.
You also dodged a bit, do any of the /barns or shortly explained jumps stand out to you.
If this is Mind just appeasing the attacker then...well it's kinda working. Hmmm. Unvote
I would still like a list when you can, with the specific people on your wagon reasoned out, and then I'll go from there. (Yes, I'm going somewhere with this).
@Mindreaver When you get back on can explain why you think shadow is probably town. I'm not seeing anything that gives me confidence to say one way or another on Shadow.
You also dodged a bit, do any of the /barns or shortly explained jumps stand out to you.
Sorry, I didn't mean to be vague. Cyan and Avacado (sorry, I just keep thinking of you as Avacado, no disrespect intended:))
Specifically the beginning of post 227 and all of post 229, which I suppose isn't really the part that was meant to appease me, but I liked it. Mind has moved to the "reconsider" pile.
I’m here, give me some time to finish catching up.
For now I want to say something fishy’s going on with this Mindreaver train. I gave Cantrip’s case (135) a better read, and while it looks impressive, I don’t find it compelling enough to have drawn this many votes this quickly. The lack of questioning it before voting is not sitting well with me.
Apocado and Cyan’s votes are so bad. They’re sheeping Cantrip hard without supplying their own reasons (in Cyan’s case) OR trying to engage Mind to figure him out, which comes off as opportunistic. With Hunt, he appears out of nowhere, throws out some quick reasons in 189 and parks his vote on the current wagon. Not a good look.
Shadow, like Cantrip, is at least making an effort to talk to Mind. Before, I thought it was so accusatory that I felt like Shadow was already decided that Mind is scum no matter what he said, but I’m seeing some improvement in 205 with a willingness to hear Mind out.
@Apocado @Cyan @Hunt: I need to see some work from you three to show that you’re trying to figure this game out, because sheeping a lynch isn’t going to help us in the long run. Give me some original thoughts, what is Mind trying to do with his posts? What is he posting that specifically comes from a scum mindset and why? Apocado and Hunt, you two have a start, but I’d like for you expand your argument. Cyan, if you’re town then we cannot afford to get complacent with our stances. If you agree with Cantrip, what bits of his case do you like and what other *original* opinions on the matter do you have to share?
@gj: Sorry, I said I was going to leave you alone for a bit, so I was going to just skip responding to these, but...I can't skip this one element. Sorry.
I feel like I'm misunderstanding you. When you say "touches my town range and is in a pretty wide range of my wolf game", it sounds like you're saying "I'm only rarely disconnected as town, but it's often the case when I'm scum." But then your following lines contradict that, so I must be confused as to what "in my range" means?
What I am saying is that while I have been disconnected in my town games, it happens more when I am wolf/3rd party. I am obviously aware of my own meta, so I am saying I would consciously try to be vigilant if I were a wolf.
Ok, so I was reading correctly. With that clarified, you do see the disconnect here, don't you? You say that you're aware of your own meta and would try to be more vigilant as a wolf, but also that you are more disconnected when you're a wolf. So if you're disconnected from the game (and I saw that from you early on, pre-garnering suspicion, which would be when you would be potentially less vigilant), then your meta says that you're more likely to be scum.
However, when I didn't unvote here, and said "there are other equally guilty votes" I wasn't really talking about the process of voting. But the process of UNVOTING. I felt like Shadow was saying I should have damn well unvoted, when I realized my mistake. Fair. But Gruff was at L-7. Not in danger. There were votes (still are) that were placed as RVS votes, but remain there this very second. Where is the outcry to unvote those? That was the point. Not taking the RVS innocence and somehow saying "oh that RVS vote on Bur was just as bad as my vote on Gruff", but to say "Hey, if I'm getting ***** for not unvoting, how come nobody is looking for THOSE OTHER unvotes, that IMO are just as guilty of being there when they aren't meant to lynch the person".
But RVS votes are, well, random votes. By definition, without (serious) reason. You voted for a reason, and when that reason was identified as unlikely to be meaningful (or, at least, not indicative of Gruffin being scum), you didn't retract the "serious" vote. So you're trying to put your serious vote on the same level as RVS votes, when they're not. Do I think players should unvote their RVS votes when RVS is over? Yes, but that's NOT the same as leaving a serious vote on a player when the reason for the vote no longer applies.
Anyways, to clarify... I feel like overall he reads frustrated town to me, but there were still a couple of marks on his record. I also feel the same way he does about my vote on Gruffin. I wanted to bring attention to something I saw and the best way to do that and have it taken seriously is with a vote. Gruffin is in no danger of being lynched today and my vote on him doesn't really matter until we get closer to the deadline and I need to put my signature on a lynch candidate going into the night.
That last line sounds like an old jedi scum mind trick. "What you saw was of no real consequence; no harm was done. Tell us to move along now."
This was why I was asking if you thought we were aligned, specifically as scum. Just the loaded nature of this comment implies that we'd... have to be? Otherwise, it doesn't make much sense, even if you are fishing for a reaction.
The bolded "us" in my quote was a carry-over from the movie line, not intended to indicate "Terry and Mind".
@Cantrip I liked his take on GJ, Kit, and Mind. There are some parts of it that make it's clear he's not 100% caught up, but it's a good entrance.
For example I don't think scum AG comes in with the half suspicion onto Mind. I'd expect either to join to wagon or ignore it. Mentioning it like that in passing seems much more likely to come from town. I think Kit is town and so does just about everyone else, given that I don't think scum AG enters the thread with a naked scorching hot take that Kit is scum.
I will give you that the random Cyan mention is strange though.
@Shadow I was so convinced that 236 was a reply to me that I couldn't figure out what you were nath'd by for much longer than I'm comfortable admitting.
@Cantrip: I agree that you read very differently from Avalon.
I commented on Cyan because something about his posting is striking to me, it's just that it's a borderline/null read rather than pointing towards a specific alignment.
I've read most of Mind's posts, but I haven't focused on just trying to follow his mindset yet and so while the case is good I'm not 100% behind the wagon until I do.
I’m going to come clean here and say that I’m having trouble keeping up with all these quote-striped posts. Bear with me here as I take forever.
I’m liking SJT’s skepticism because he’s not taking the easy route by clearing me for the slip. It shows that he’s willing to weigh possibilities against the norm. Need to see more from him, however.
GJ, you’ve mentioned “equity” multiple times so I want to be clear: Is awarding someone equity equivalent to awarding them town points or otherwise good vibes? I’d also like for you to go into why Shadow is awarded some in 187.
However, when I didn't unvote here, and said "there are other equally guilty votes" I wasn't really talking about the process of voting. But the process of UNVOTING. I felt like Shadow was saying I should have damn well unvoted, when I realized my mistake. Fair. But Gruff was at L-7. Not in danger. There were votes (still are) that were placed as RVS votes, but remain there this very second. Where is the outcry to unvote those? That was the point. Not taking the RVS innocence and somehow saying "oh that RVS vote on Bur was just as bad as my vote on Gruff", but to say "Hey, if I'm getting ***** for not unvoting, how come nobody is looking for THOSE OTHER unvotes, that IMO are just as guilty of being there when they aren't meant to lynch the person".
But RVS votes are, well, random votes. By definition, without (serious) reason. You voted for a reason, and when that reason was identified as unlikely to be meaningful (or, at least, not indicative of Gruffin being scum), you didn't retract the "serious" vote. So you're trying to put your serious vote on the same level as RVS votes, when they're not. Do I think players should unvote their RVS votes when RVS is over? Yes, but that's NOT the same as leaving a serious vote on a player when the reason for the vote no longer applies.
I think we're going to have to agree to disagree. I think leaving the vote there entirely depends on the urgency/result of leaving it there. 2 votes isn't pressure if one of them is clearly not going to stick around. Whether that vote is RVS or in this case a "serious vote that no longer has any merit" is nebulous, unless it has consequences. I think we can agree that there was no harm in my vote remaining there. I don't think the RVS votes harm anything either. I guess that really was the point, at the end of the day. Is there a world where scum!mindreaver has a strategy that involves voting Gruff, bringing her to L-7, and then camping out there until the vote became relevant? No. Nobody believes that. I can see the point of "from this mindset, you should have unvoted". I truly can. It's inconsistent. I get it. I suspect if I hadn't reacted to Shadow the way I did, it wouldn't have become this black hole we've sunk into. I think this is probably my last word on the issue, because it's not advancing the game.
Anyways, to clarify... I feel like overall he reads frustrated town to me, but there were still a couple of marks on his record. I also feel the same way he does about my vote on Gruffin. I wanted to bring attention to something I saw and the best way to do that and have it taken seriously is with a vote. Gruffin is in no danger of being lynched today and my vote on him doesn't really matter until we get closer to the deadline and I need to put my signature on a lynch candidate going into the night.
That last line sounds like an old jedi scum mind trick. "What you saw was of no real consequence; no harm was done. Tell us to move along now."
This was why I was asking if you thought we were aligned, specifically as scum. Just the loaded nature of this comment implies that we'd... have to be? Otherwise, it doesn't make much sense, even if you are fishing for a reaction.
The bolded "us" in my quote was a carry-over from the movie line, not intended to indicate "Terry and Mind".
Good clarification there, but whether of not the "us" was there, you're still saying that Terry is saying to ignore something I did right? Which implies either we're working together to deceive or He has some agenda (NAI BTW) for the group to townread me. I was just trying to figure out which of those you were probing here.
I’m voting Cyan because they have given virtually nothing for us to work with despite being here posting. We’ve been given a Cantrip townread, yes, but we’ve yet to hear why Cyan thinks that Mind is scum and there's been no questioning/scumhunting effort.
Good tone + you got three votes. And everyone and their grandma knows how easy you are to push as mislynch fodder.
Are you suggesting that there are scum pushing Bur as a mislynch right now? If that’s so, who on his train is scum and why?
I am not. Unless the whole wolf team has no understanding of Bur, I would venture a guess that there are three townies on him. It is still early mind you, but the way it is going, I think that Bur is likely more town. He is also psuedo volume town telling, but that will come later.
I don't get this argument.
Getting town vibes from Rhand and shadow. Cyan is a hard null.
This is very likely a scum post. Too much of it just makes no sense/has no context.
Mindreaver keeps getting scummier in my eyes also. Particularly, this post:
Oh that was opportunistic. I'd rather be scum hunting than defending myself, is the answer. But since I feel that noose tightening (5 votes in fact, probably 2 in spirit, is pretty close to scum hammering me if they aren't on the wagon already), I'm trying to do both.
This comes across entirely as a scum saying what they think a townie is supposed to say, but missing the mark.
TRSJ/AVacado are my dream wagons right now. Cythare wouldn't be bad either, if for nothing else, it gets him to vote.
The GJ way path to no lynching:
@Mind: so it's not the townclears but the tone / addendum's that bother you. Why not say that in the first place?
If Mind flips scum, Grape needs some scrutiny for this. Not sure it feels like scum trying to start a counterwagon, especially with the waffling, but it definitely pushes the discussion in another direction (intentionally or not), and it would explain his lack of follow-up w/r/t the question he asked of me.
Eh, ok, but I'll /barn everyone who's asking for you to do anything other than calling me town.
@Rhand: Remind me to ask you about this later.
Of course not. I could never (again) pull the wool over the eyes of such an insightful and talented player such as yourself.
If that's true, why push a counterwagon when Mind's wagon is already established and going somewhere?
Why are you popping in with this without responding to questions posed to you?
Why go the lynch all lurkers route when other things are definitely happening in the thread?
Ok. What do you think about how Mind responded to Shadow's pressure?
Why tack on the bolded portion? Do you think Rhand is mistaken (or intentionally wrong) about which post he asked you the question? That feels like you're trying to portray yourself as disconnected (to support the whole "I missed your question").
I've seen that term a couple of times; what's your definition of "spicy"? What do you like about Grape's post?
Vizzini, is that you?
What are you asking here? Cythare's only posted once, but Gruffin has posted a fair amount.
Don't quite get this, either. Are you again going the "lynch all lurkers" route? If so, what exactly does "the bottom up" look like?
Except I am not voting Cythare. Merely stating my interest towards that route. I am not exactly a huge fan of Mindreaver which is why I am fine with his wagon, but he has some town equity which is why I am looking elsewhere.
Answered. Pretty much said it was NAGL.
I don't actually care. I just don't want to get corrected that it was actually post X, and was too lazy to open up a new tab to view the page. I am not disconnected, he asked me a few questions and I missed one.
Spicy can mean a lot of things. Either a read that is against the concensus, some new information that is really juicy, but basically anything that is against the tide of the game.
I have had some pretty good luck with counterwagons. I am not saying Mindreaver is lock town or anything, but he isn't the only one that should get some pressure.
His vote is in a relatively useless spot. AG has maybe one post, and I don't see it doing anything (for the same reason I am not voting Cythare). Not calling out Vi because I thought about voting Avacado for a period of time, and obviously me and Rhand moved onto Joe. So eh.
Lowest post count up. More or less it is. Let's put it this way: The more active voices in the thread by maybe Mind are not exactly in my wolf list.
The GJ way path to no lynching:
Any chance I could get a working T/S list from you? I'd like specific reasons for the people on your wagon if you could.
________________________________________________
Wrt the JoeTerry counter wagon, I feel like Mind is the correct lynch of the 2, and I feel like they are soft unaligned, due to the 1-2 jump onto Gruffin for the same reason that seems less likely to come from buddies.
Because I don't want the whole thread to focus on 1 guy while we can simultaneously explore other avenues.
The GJ way path to no lynching:
Sorry...what does NAGL mean?
...but Rhand SAID the post number in his question. How can you be attacked (or corrected) for miscalling the post that he specified?
Ok, thanks. But you didn't answer the second half: what did you find "spicy" about Grape's post? And, while you're at it, why is you saying that "self-serving"?
Ok.
Ah, I thought you were saying "where you at" as in "where are you lurkers at", but you meant "what's your status/gamestate". That makes more sense.
So...I tend to see "lynch all lurkers" as a valid strategy only when the thread activity is suffering from a lack of posting by aforementioned lurkers. Why is pursuing the lurkers better than interacting with the players who are posting and giving the lurkers a chance to participate?
Oooookay, but you can question and even pressure other players while still committing your vote to your highest scumspect. Is RSTJ scummier to you than Mind?
Well I am not saying I should take a shot at 1:33pm in the afternoon, but...
NAGL= Not a good look. This is mostly coming from MU, but partly because I know people are going to be irritated with me
I don't know. My memory is just awful sometimes. I was 95% sure 106 was correct, but didn't want to get called out for not paying attention.
He is right. No one is really chatting about me. I was being referenced every now and then, but not really being called townie, hence the self serving part of me liking it.
Cantrip, I like you. But your line of questioning is making me roll my eyes everytime I answer one. I think you are town, I like that you are hunting, but you are barking up the wrong tree. I am not a wolf, go bug a wolf.
The GJ way path to no lynching:
We are 72+ hours in and I am bored. I am waiting for the 5+ players below the mod line to start doing something or I am just going to start ham pushing. I hope there is a vig in this game and they just start shooting the bottom of the pyramid. I don't think the active voices right now are wolves so I like low player killing equity right now.
The GJ way path to no lynching:
Anyways, to clarify... I feel like overall he reads frustrated town to me, but there were still a couple of marks on his record. I also feel the same way he does about my vote on Gruffin. I wanted to bring attention to something I saw and the best way to do that and have it taken seriously is with a vote. Gruffin is in no danger of being lynched today and my vote on him doesn't really matter until we get closer to the deadline and I need to put my signature on a lynch candidate going into the night.
Cantrip's posting has me feeling town on him. It's a different tone than it was in our Avalon game.
I'm going to keep popping in and out checking up on different players today, but I hate post walls and prefer to do snippets at a time.
Maybe I am just biased because of the games I have played + hosted, but there seems to be this increasing tendency for 3/4+ of the wolf team to be in the low posters. I don't know if we just have a current player pool that absolutely loathes wolfing, but it shows.
It's also even more insanely frustrating on this site.
The GJ way path to no lynching:
You have 3 votes on you, how do you feel?
The GJ way path to no lynching:
"Hey, what about post XXX?"
"Oh yeah, here are my thoughts on post XXX. Sorry I missed responding."
"GOTCHA! That wasn't in post XXX, it was post YYY!!! Muahahahahaha!"
...like, I just can't figure out the mindset that is cautious about something like that.
Are you aware that being self-conscious can be a scumtell?
I certainly appreciate you being willing to continue responding and engaging, and your responses haven't been bad, in general. I'll leave you alone for a bit, but you're not off my list. Not by a long shot.
I feel like I'm misunderstanding you. When you say "touches my town range and is in a pretty wide range of my wolf game", it sounds like you're saying "I'm only rarely disconnected as town, but it's often the case when I'm scum." But then your following lines contradict that, so I must be confused as to what "in my range" means?
You're a regular here; you know that games move at a slower pace.
I pretty much detest the "vig all lurkers because they're lurkers" mentality, but that's in part because I'm sometimes an inadvertent lurker. I don't like lurking in games, but I feel like "oh, lynch/vig the lurk!" is (no offense) lazy coming from town and the path of low hanging fruit for scum.
I feel like that's more Mindreaver attempting to appease his attacker (albeit a bit too late) than a town action. The frustration might feel real, but I think it could just as easily come from frustrated scum than town. Personally, I think as town I would leave my vote in that situation (at least until I had a good reason to move it) to show that I wasn't afraid of Shadow. Well, that's not really accurate, as I probably would have moved my vote as soon as the meta argument came to light (or, hey, not even voted in the first place...).
That last line sounds like an old
jediscum mind trick. "What you saw was of no real consequence; no harm was done. Tell us to move along now."While I'm all about players calling me town, Avalon is a terrible game to reference for my meta. Have you read Overwatch or Blackout 2?
Eh, Shadow and I were pretty solidly active in Overwatch. Brin and I--and I guess to some extent DV--were a little lurky in Avalon, but I feel like that game is again a bad example because the lack of flips naturally degenerated the interest. What games have you been in recently that you've experienced this?
Why?
Regarding your soul read. I didn't like the progression. It wasn't like GJ didn't have posts at that point. It wasn't like you couldn't specifically mention what you liked. I personally like the thought process on Bur having votes on him, and what that meant. But when pressed, you didn't say tone, or meta, or anything. Soul-read. The kinda thing that could literally mean anything. It didn't help that I already thought Bur wasn't actually pressing you to defend that read. In hindsight, maybe I made mountains out of a molehill there. I'm moving slowly away from that. I'm going to be sooo pissed off if you're scum at the end with Bur, and I flip flop.
I will when I get a chance, sick kid today as well as a work catastrophe. So it might be tomorrow during the day. Depends how the night goes. I want to re-read Rhand, because there is a lot there I haven't paid enough attention to.
Also, I think I'm fairly caught up with answering questions asked of me at this point, except for the T/S list shadow asked for. Did I miss something?
As for Terry that just isn't factual. He had a focus on Gruffin even before Mind mentioned the Day Chat slip.
and
I was also slightly pinged by Gruffin asking others to give their reads on them so Terry latching onto that rang true for me. And jumping at the "slip" and running with it showed a town confirmation bias mindset more than anything else to me. Now I disagree with Terry on Gruff and think she is pretty towny, but her record isn't spotless. And I'm reasonably comfortable that Terry is town as well at this point.
I completely concede the hunt point. It's close to a barn, but better. As for GJ I thought he had voted and not just expressed an agreement with the case.
As for the low hanging fruit your channelling of Boromir is correct, but low hanging fruit doesn't pick itself and you were definitely positioning to pluck some of the easier ones.
All you're proving is that town!mind != scum!cantrip.
Secondly, are you under the impression that Terry and I are aligned here as well?
@Cantripmancer Initially I had wanted you to respond to suss out your alignment because GJ is a tough read and I think uninfluenced reads on him would have been telling. In the passing time enough people had expressed confidence in your alignment that I got tired of sitting on my post and wanted to get it out as the game had gotten too quiet. Plus I don't think not responding to that question is alignment indicative and saw nothing to gain by calling it out.
Also you never replied to the content, do you have any thoughts on it?
@GJ talk to me about Bur: do you stand by your earlier read him? Can you elaborate at all on the contradiction between clearing him for a fast wagon and clearing his wagon for knowing he's toxic?
@Terry Can you give me some examples of the difference in Cantrip's tone from Avalon to here? I read Avalon and I'm not seeing a difference here. I think I'm agreeing with you on Mindreaver, but I can't get past his response to Shadow when they're posting back and forth earlier. Can you give me your thoughts on that exchange in particular.
You never responded to my 185, iirc. The question I asked about why "equally guilty" vs "equally innocent" wasn't rhetorical. And at the time, you hadn't responded to Rhand's question in 191, but I guess that was after Cyan's 190, which is what you were responding to at that time. But when you posted, it felt like there were several questions leveled at you that you were ignoring to question Cyan.
This is fair. But this is pretty much the only way I know how to scumhunt. I'm not very good at meta reads, in part because of my memory plus not having time to read (or reread) every game. So I tend to hold actions up to my own metric for the most part and see where they fail the town test. That said...I'm having doubts. Your last few responses have been pretty straightfoward, and you do seem to be pursuing scumhunting despite being under attack. Hmm.
I haven't seen anything that says you can't be, but I haven't seen anything other than the similar bad attacks on Gruffin that makes me cautious of that.
Fair enough.
In general, I agree with a lot of what you said. I'm not as suspicious of his 187 ("Not a huge fan of Mindreaver right now. Shadow gets a little more equity. Cyan still Nai, Cantrip also gets some town equity.") other than the mild possibility that he could be trying to minimize suspicion on Mind (if they're buddies) in a low-key way. And I don't agree with your take on his 50 ("Kitbit pure"), but I can see where you're coming from. Your insights into his 101--especially that he's making game choices from meta-based situations in a game with a lot of new players--were well-articulated. It's frustrating that you're undecided on where you stand with him, but I can understand that based on your explanation.
That's the mindset where I am lazy, but don't want to be seen as lazy.
It's never come up in my 4-5 years of playing. -_-
I should be.
What I am saying is that while I have been disconnected in my town games, it happens more when I am wolf/3rd party. I am obviously aware of my own meta, so I am saying I would consciously try to be vigilant if I were a wolf.
Doesn't mean I can't try to throw gasoline everywhere. Vigs should be aimed at either lurkers or counterwagons.
My mistborn game, few games from MU, and Bur's recent game. All the wolves were pretty much in the low posting pile.
Because as you have experienced, lurkers on other sites are posting 4-5 times in a 36 hour period. We are lucky here to get a post every 48 hours from some people.
The GJ way path to no lynching:
and to that guilty/innocent thing, I didn't realize it was an actual question. The answer is, there probably isn't much difference between the two meanings. This is going into OOG stuff, but I write a lot of technical documentation for a living. It's not my primary focus, but I do a fair bit of it. One thing I try to do, and you can probably see it every time I write anything, is that I attempt to not repeat the same words or phrases over and over. At least, not close enough together to be noticed. So I think part of that is what you're reading into there. I'll go see exactly what I said, and what you're questioning, to make sure that I truly didn't mean something different. My gut says I just used the word guilty, and then decided to not write it again.
So you actually supplied the innocent/guilty dynamic here. My vote was completely on purpose, and yes, maybe not the greatest judgment. I'll get that out of the way first, so nobody thinks I'm backing away or trivializing the voting process.
However, when I didn't unvote here, and said "there are other equally guilty votes" I wasn't really talking about the process of voting. But the process of UNVOTING. I felt like Shadow was saying I should have damn well unvoted, when I realized my mistake. Fair. But Gruff was at L-7. Not in danger. There were votes (still are) that were placed as RVS votes, but remain there this very second. Where is the outcry to unvote those? That was the point. Not taking the RVS innocence and somehow saying "oh that RVS vote on Bur was just as bad as my vote on Gruff", but to say "Hey, if I'm getting ***** for not unvoting, how come nobody is looking for THOSE OTHER unvotes, that IMO are just as guilty of being there when they aren't meant to lynch the person".
I just got a kick out of this, because I drafted a much more confrontational message that was basically "I do what I want, if don't like it, lump it". But after actually writing that down, I was less pissy and decided to unvote. It might look appeasing, but in reality, I don't want gruff lynched, so it's a fair enough request.
This was why I was asking if you thought we were aligned, specifically as scum. Just the loaded nature of this comment implies that we'd... have to be? Otherwise, it doesn't make much sense, even if you are fishing for a reaction.
I'm more suspect of the /barned opinions, and the one-liner justifications for votes right now. I think that's where scum would jump on a wagon early. and I think we'd see more of them find "reasons" to pile on if they thought they could make it look organic.
Something about kitbits feels off to me, can't really explain it.
I'll have to fully read Mind's posts, but the case on him looks reasonable.
I don't get this argument.
Getting town vibes from Rhand and shadow. Cyan is a hard null.
You also dodged a bit, do any of the /barns or shortly explained jumps stand out to you.
Unvote
I would still like a list when you can, with the specific people on your wagon reasoned out, and then I'll go from there. (Yes, I'm going somewhere with this).
@Shadow if you want to wait till Mind replies it's fine, but if you can go into the reasoning behind your unvote I'd appreciate it.
@Grapefruit: But yeah, basically I think there is a reasonable chance mind might be town.
For now I want to say something fishy’s going on with this Mindreaver train. I gave Cantrip’s case (135) a better read, and while it looks impressive, I don’t find it compelling enough to have drawn this many votes this quickly. The lack of questioning it before voting is not sitting well with me.
Apocado and Cyan’s votes are so bad. They’re sheeping Cantrip hard without supplying their own reasons (in Cyan’s case) OR trying to engage Mind to figure him out, which comes off as opportunistic. With Hunt, he appears out of nowhere, throws out some quick reasons in 189 and parks his vote on the current wagon. Not a good look.
Shadow, like Cantrip, is at least making an effort to talk to Mind. Before, I thought it was so accusatory that I felt like Shadow was already decided that Mind is scum no matter what he said, but I’m seeing some improvement in 205 with a willingness to hear Mind out.
@Apocado @Cyan @Hunt: I need to see some work from you three to show that you’re trying to figure this game out, because sheeping a lynch isn’t going to help us in the long run. Give me some original thoughts, what is Mind trying to do with his posts? What is he posting that specifically comes from a scum mindset and why? Apocado and Hunt, you two have a start, but I’d like for you expand your argument. Cyan, if you’re town then we cannot afford to get complacent with our stances. If you agree with Cantrip, what bits of his case do you like and what other *original* opinions on the matter do you have to share?
But RVS votes are, well, random votes. By definition, without (serious) reason. You voted for a reason, and when that reason was identified as unlikely to be meaningful (or, at least, not indicative of Gruffin being scum), you didn't retract the "serious" vote. So you're trying to put your serious vote on the same level as RVS votes, when they're not. Do I think players should unvote their RVS votes when RVS is over? Yes, but that's NOT the same as leaving a serious vote on a player when the reason for the vote no longer applies.
The bolded "us" in my quote was a carry-over from the movie line, not intended to indicate "Terry and Mind".
Sorry if this comes off as pedantic, but can you specify what you agree with? Statements like this are not helpful in Mafia.
Are you not caught up/why haven't you read Mind's posts?
Why did you feel the need to put this in here when you're only commenting on 6/16 players in the game?
EWP: @Grape: What do you like about AG's post?
For example I don't think scum AG comes in with the half suspicion onto Mind. I'd expect either to join to wagon or ignore it. Mentioning it like that in passing seems much more likely to come from town. I think Kit is town and so does just about everyone else, given that I don't think scum AG enters the thread with a naked scorching hot take that Kit is scum.
I will give you that the random Cyan mention is strange though.
@Shadow I was so convinced that 236 was a reply to me that I couldn't figure out what you were nath'd by for much longer than I'm comfortable admitting.
Nah. I am not really trying to be vigilant. Therefore town. Lock it in.
(I see what you are saying. You have a point, but I'm still town. I'll prove it later.)
@Grape
I currently have bur lean town, but also can't remember anything he had done recently so it's fading.
Not super impressed with Gruffin right now, but he is doing work so I don't really feel like pursuing further.
@Cyan: going to poke the bear: where are you at with me?
The GJ way path to no lynching:
I commented on Cyan because something about his posting is striking to me, it's just that it's a borderline/null read rather than pointing towards a specific alignment.
I've read most of Mind's posts, but I haven't focused on just trying to follow his mindset yet and so while the case is good I'm not 100% behind the wagon until I do.
I’m liking SJT’s skepticism because he’s not taking the easy route by clearing me for the slip. It shows that he’s willing to weigh possibilities against the norm. Need to see more from him, however.
GJ, you’ve mentioned “equity” multiple times so I want to be clear: Is awarding someone equity equivalent to awarding them town points or otherwise good vibes? I’d also like for you to go into why Shadow is awarded some in 187.
Good clarification there, but whether of not the "us" was there, you're still saying that Terry is saying to ignore something I did right? Which implies either we're working together to deceive or He has some agenda (NAI BTW) for the group to townread me. I was just trying to figure out which of those you were probing here.
Vote: Cyan
I’m voting Cyan because they have given virtually nothing for us to work with despite being here posting. We’ve been given a Cantrip townread, yes, but we’ve yet to hear why Cyan thinks that Mind is scum and there's been no questioning/scumhunting effort.
This is very likely a scum post. Too much of it just makes no sense/has no context.
Mindreaver keeps getting scummier in my eyes also. Particularly, this post:
This comes across entirely as a scum saying what they think a townie is supposed to say, but missing the mark.
You seem town to me. Or at least, you seem different than whatever game we were just in where you were scum.