Cantrip and Rhand are both very likely town based on Mind interactions. Nothing else really jumped out at me as being strong anti-alignment reading through.
@Shadow: Cantrip explained it, but the reason I think that they're a dichotomy is because their results are so alike.
Target someone, learn if they are pr/scum vs target someone, learn if they used an action is almost the same.
I'm getting ready for another guided tour and don't have time to us emy pc for quotes, but KJ and Terry look pretty bad here. And I'm not a fan of Cyan's view where to different weak protective roles cannot co-exist but two similar investigative roles can. Investigative is way more powerful than protective.
There's a negative side to having Mind claim his target in that Mind could claim to have checked someone he did not check, and then give the scumteam information based on that's person's reaction. But, I think as long as we're agreed on lynching Mind and that whoever he names should not react in any way, they asking Mind for his check is a decent risk mitigation.
@Mind: What role do you THINK your target had?
I think this is a good middle ground between having them claim and testing to see if Mind is telling the truth.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
There's a negative side to having Mind claim his target in that Mind could claim to have checked someone he did not check, and then give the scumteam information based on that's person's reaction. But, I think as long as we're agreed on lynching Mind and that whoever he names should not react in any way, they asking Mind for his check is a decent risk mitigation.
I'm not sure claiming the target is a good idea.
If Mind is scum, then we gain nothing. And if he's a rolecop, he might use the chance to tell his team who is a PR if the results aren't posted in their chat.
If he is town, then I'm not sure if the chance of outing another PR is worth it. If he hit scum, he'll simply cause that scum to claim PR when he needs to claim.
The role if town is only powerful to catch scum in lies later on if they ever claim vanilla.
Actually that makes me think... should we massclaim and then have Mind out his target? If Mind is town that or leaving him alive are the only ways of using his info. And if Mind is town, the whole scumteam is kind of forced to claim PRs out of fear that Mind targeted them, which should net us a useful situation.
On the other hand, if he's scum, we would just spill all info scum needs into the thread. Of which lots is spilled already.
Meh. I don't know. Thoughts anyone?
Anyways, if Mind flips scum rolecop, I think KJ is scum with him. That question asking him about the role of his target is awful.
Targeted Mindreaver, Rodemy, and Myself. Mind now has no excuse not to clear himself via his role so I'm waiting on that.
Well, thank you
So, I'm in kind of a weird spot. My ability is, for lack of a better term, Vanilla Town Cop. I either get the result of "Vanilla Town" or "Not Vanilla Town". My target last night, was not VT. So either I'm going to out a PR, or I found scum. I want to wait a little bit, and see how the day goes before I reveal the target. As I might get a better sense for which I've found, and it takes potential fake VT claims off the table for scum.
Can you explain the bold? My role is quite clearly stated in PM, Town X.
The role itself is the kind of ambiguously elegant information role I can see Proph putting in a game, but the bolded feels like you're trying to think of what to call it, and like... why not just call it what it is? Or if that is the name of the role, why did you say the bolded? This is maybe just being overly nitpicky, but it feels weird to me at at first glance.
That's a reach. The role is Town investigator. Which doesn't at all sum up what it does.
If mind is scum, then I'd bet his results from last night were put in scum chat, so I think he should definitely claim his target.
But that's not the scenerio that matters. What matters is the situation where Mindreaver is town and outs a power role. If he's scum, why would we trust his results at all? Shadow you are scum aren't you? What bothers me more is that mindreaver is MIA, has he been prodded?
If he's town, there is a very real chance that he found scum. And unfortunately his disappearing is pretty NAI, he did the same thing in Barebones as town.
Thank you, it's mostly weekends that make me disappear, although I didn't get here Monday either this week.
I'll address a few things about my target for now.
1) No I didn't target GJ. There was no point in my PoV. I thought he'd breadcrumbed Vig, and I was townreading him anyway. So that would have been a wasted shot to learn nothing of relevance.
2) I can't tell if the person I targeted is scum or a PR still. I was hoping the person would have been more active. I'm still trying to determine what to do here. But I would say it's not scummy to want me to reveal this target. I do see the PoV where I'm scum, and it's not in my interest to ever reveal who I targeted, since that would mean whoever it is, is lock town. Although, that PoV doesn't really matter, but I can't prove that.
I'm not fully understanding why Rodemy and I are a dichotomy? His ability wouldn't tell you the same things mine does... like at all. He's just a double watcher right? Hunt and Cyan didn't target last night. k. Are they confirmed VT? no. Are they confirmed town? No. They might not have performed the nightkill. They might have targeted abilities they didn't use.
Like, I do understand that on the surface, we're doing similar things. And maybe I just suck at understanding mafia design. But why can't these exist together? Neither one seems completely overpowered in a game this size. I can imagine a setup of 6 town targeted abilities, 2 town passives, 4 VTs, 4 scum. That would give me 25% to hit VT, 25% to hit scum, and ~43% to hit some other combination. That would also give Rodemy roughly 6/14*6/13 = 20% chance to hit somebody targeting somebody else. Seems elegant enough. Neither of us is going to bring conclusive evidence to the thread every night, just one in four or five nights. Probably less than that, with a little luck and smart targeting.
I was going to say Rodemy and I could probably work together, but for that to work, grape would need to protect him, and not me. I probably end up dead then. But it might be worth it.
I was going to say Rodemy and I could probably work together, but for that to work, grape would need to protect him, and not me. I probably end up dead then. But it might be worth it.
How would we work together? How do these two roles combined even work together?
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I was going to say Rodemy and I could probably work together, but for that to work, grape would need to protect him, and not me. I probably end up dead then. But it might be worth it.
How would we work together? How do these two roles combined even work together?
If you target me as one of your watched things, you'd be able to confirm who I targeted. Even if I don't reveal it publically in the thread.
Thing about how much better this situation would be if you'd watched me last night, and grape didn't make me untargetable. We'd both be able to look at <redacted> to be determining scum or town PR. If nothing else, you'd compile enough info to eventually POE faster than anyone else.
I think we put ourselves in a bad situation building dichotomies. It basically sets scum up to win if they find a way to pit town vs. Town in a dichotomy chain lynch deal.
Also, mind, if i target "x" and they take a night action HEY I FOUND OUT THEY ARENT VT.
That's soooooo ******* basic.
Like, that's exactly why I said "on the surface". YOu might know they aren't VT. But you don't know if they are town or scum.
PLUS, if they don't do *****, like last night. What do you know? Is hunt bulletproof? Can you answer that? Is Cyan scum? Does Cyan have a one-shot ability that he didn't use? Does Hunt?
My ability answers at least some of those questions, with approximately the same frequency.
Also, mind, if i target "x" and they take a night action HEY I FOUND OUT THEY ARENT VT.
That's soooooo ******* basic.
Like, that's exactly why I said "on the surface". YOu might know they aren't VT. But you don't know if they are town or scum.
PLUS, if they don't do *****, like last night. What do you know? Is hunt bulletproof? Can you answer that? Is Cyan scum? Does Cyan have a one-shot ability that he didn't use? Does Hunt?
My ability answers at least some of those questions, with approximately the same frequency.
And to follow up. Hunt was a great target, you're confirmed town to me for that. If he'd targeted anyone last night, that would have been all the proof needed for a already scummy player to be dead to rights.
Cyan, I don't really understand. He was definitely on my short list, for not having really breadcrumbed anything. But I suppose you might have gotten lucky and he'd have performed the nightkill. That was the thinking, correct?
Also, mind, if i target "x" and they take a night action HEY I FOUND OUT THEY ARENT VT.
That's soooooo ******* basic.
Like, that's exactly why I said "on the surface". YOu might know they aren't VT. But you don't know if they are town or scum.
PLUS, if they don't do *****, like last night. What do you know? Is hunt bulletproof? Can you answer that? Is Cyan scum? Does Cyan have a one-shot ability that he didn't use? Does Hunt?
My ability answers at least some of those questions, with approximately the same frequency.
Your abilty doesnt say if they are town or scum either, so bolded is an odd thing to use for an argument.
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Also, mind, if i target "x" and they take a night action HEY I FOUND OUT THEY ARENT VT.
That's soooooo ******* basic.
Like, that's exactly why I said "on the surface". YOu might know they aren't VT. But you don't know if they are town or scum.
PLUS, if they don't do *****, like last night. What do you know? Is hunt bulletproof? Can you answer that? Is Cyan scum? Does Cyan have a one-shot ability that he didn't use? Does Hunt?
My ability answers at least some of those questions, with approximately the same frequency.
Your abilty doesnt say if they are town or scum either, so bolded is an odd thing to use for an argument.
It will specifically clear somebody who is Vanilla Town. If I can target one, I get confirmed alignment. Your ability only tells us if they used an ability on a particular night. That is the argument.
Also, mind, if i target "x" and they take a night action HEY I FOUND OUT THEY ARENT VT.
That's soooooo ******* basic.
Like, that's exactly why I said "on the surface". YOu might know they aren't VT. But you don't know if they are town or scum.
PLUS, if they don't do *****, like last night. What do you know? Is hunt bulletproof? Can you answer that? Is Cyan scum? Does Cyan have a one-shot ability that he didn't use? Does Hunt?
My ability answers at least some of those questions, with approximately the same frequency.
Your abilty doesnt say if they are town or scum either, so bolded is an odd thing to use for an argument.
It will specifically clear somebody who is Vanilla Town. If I can target one, I get confirmed alignment. Your ability only tells us if they used an ability on a particular night. That is the argument.
that isn't quite right.
Your ability only checks to see if somebody USES an ability. IF you find somebody who uses a targeted ability, YES, you have found out they aren't Vanilla, specifically. But you can get false negatives, because people don't have to use their ability every night or they might not have a targeted ability. You get no alignment information, ever.
Now, on the flip side. I get alignment information, but ONLY in the event that my target doesn't have an ability. I get the same false negatives (is this scum, or is this town with an ability), if I get a negative result. The benefit is, that if I find one of the X vanilla town out there, I get their alignment confirmed.
That's the difference. And I don't see them as exactly the same, just because we would have both gotten ambiguous results on say, Hunt's claim. Neither of us can prove that one. That's either an amazing scum claim, which I'm not ruling out. But it also is starting to look like a role that the town investigative powers can't verify. Which might be good balance if he is town.
In any case, just because you can prove that somebody isn't vanilla town, doesn't mean I can't also exist proving that people are vanilla town. Because mine is a direct compare, and yours is derived from logic. If your role was "I get to know if they have an ability or not", I'd agree with you, we can't exist together. But it isn't. You're taking it the extra step of "I watch, therefore if I get a positive result, I know they have an ability, therefore I'm a role cop just like you". Which isn't the case.
Mind's role is absolutely a weakened Cop role. If he were scum, it would be a weakened Rolecop, but it's hard to imagine an already not-overpowered scum role needing to be Weakened.
Do you think Mind is town? If so, how much of your read is based on his claim?
I thought there was a chance Hunt was a powerrole but /not/ a bulletproof, and was claiming bp to avoid getting shot. There were a couple different things from his claim that seemed off, namely:
1. Some people with Hunt meta were saying that he seemed like he was trying to avoid a bullet.
2. When he claimed bulletproof, he then immediately demanded people get off him, which doesn't make sense, because bulletproof isn't a confirmably town role. Hunt should have known his claim wouldn't dissuade, which made his bravado really weird.
3. When Grape claimed a protective role, Hunt was not at all interested in investigating.
4. Hunt then claimed that it was because he was a one-shot bp and that being forced to claim that ruined his utility. This made no sense as there's still a dichotomy that demands /some/ thought and the utility of a bp role is ruined when it claims at all, not when the number of uses is claimed.
This led me to conclude that Hunt was either a /different/ pr or mafia. I thought the former was more likely because Hunt's bp claim isn't a viable role to claim as scum in order to avoid a lynch. I then moved to protect him while dropping some clues, as I hoped that either a. he was a different pr, and would come back with something useful today or b. I was blowing this out of proportion, but mafia would be convinced and mgith try to shoot him (this was more of a pipe dream than anything, but whatever).
But, with Rodemy's claim, it seems likely that Hunt is just scum who overestimated his survive-ability. I don't really regret saving him, as I believe it was the +ev play, though I imagine I will get lynched for it. Sorry?
It's possible, of course, that Rodemy is lying, but iirc he is behaviorally way outside of his range, so yeah.
Your logic is good, and I think you're town for it.
If mind is scum, then I'd bet his results from last night were put in scum chat, so I think he should definitely claim his target.
Not all mods are as nice as Brin was in Overwatch. Often scum have to risk trying to communicate their info to their buddies in secret if they want them to know ability results before the following Night.
If mind is scum, then I'd bet his results from last night were put in scum chat, so I think he should definitely claim his target.
But that's not the scenerio that matters. What matters is the situation where Mindreaver is town and outs a power role. If he's scum, why would we trust his results at all? Shadow you are scum aren't you? What bothers me more is that mindreaver is MIA, has he been prodded?
I agree with your first three sentences, but I don't see how you're arriving at a scum!Shadow conclusion. Can you explain?
Cantrip and Rhand are both very likely town based on Mind interactions. Nothing else really jumped out at me as being strong anti-alignment reading through.
Are you saying we're town if Mind is scum, or regardless?
There's a negative side to having Mind claim his target in that Mind could claim to have checked someone he did not check, and then give the scumteam information based on that's person's reaction. But, I think as long as we're agreed on lynching Mind and that whoever he names should not react in any way, they asking Mind for his check is a decent risk mitigation.
What does revealing his target gain us, exactly? If you think he's scum (hence the lynch), then whatever he says becomes instant wifom. And if he's town, then we know that his target is either a PR or scum...but does the benefit of catching scum outweigh the potential of outing a PR? If Mind's town, the benefit/strength of his role is being able to call scum out on bull claims. If we're lynching him, then I'm thinking he needs to keep quiet about his target.
@Mind: What role do you THINK your target had?
I think this is a good middle ground between having them claim and testing to see if Mind is telling the truth.
Not only does this demonstrate that you're not reading the game (because that's not what Mind claimed his ability does), but why WHY WHY would you ever encourage someone to "out" a specific role that they knew was in the game?
There's a negative side to having Mind claim his target in that Mind could claim to have checked someone he did not check, and then give the scumteam information based on that's person's reaction. But, I think as long as we're agreed on lynching Mind and that whoever he names should not react in any way, they asking Mind for his check is a decent risk mitigation.
I'm not sure claiming the target is a good idea.
If Mind is scum, then we gain nothing. And if he's a rolecop, he might use the chance to tell his team who is a PR if the results aren't posted in their chat.
If he is town, then I'm not sure if the chance of outing another PR is worth it. If he hit scum, he'll simply cause that scum to claim PR when he needs to claim.
The role if town is only powerful to catch scum in lies later on if they ever claim vanilla.
Whup, my above comment was sarnath'd.
Quote from Rhand »
Actually that makes me think... should we massclaim and then have Mind out his target? If Mind is town that or leaving him alive are the only ways of using his info. And if Mind is town, the whole scumteam is kind of forced to claim PRs out of fear that Mind targeted them, which should net us a useful situation.
On the other hand, if he's scum, we would just spill all info scum needs into the thread. Of which lots is spilled already.
Meh. I don't know. Thoughts anyone?
Eh.......maybe? It feels suboptimal to massclaim this early in the game, but we have 1-2 protective roles outed, 1-2 info roles outed...it's an odd situation in that you're right: it could lead to scum all claiming power (or not claiming power and getting caught). But first Mind has to be town. That feels like it could totally backfire if he's scum. My inclination was to find you suspicious for suggesting this, but I can totally see where you're coming from. I don't think we should do it, though.
So Mind's 958 and 972 make me feel a lot better about him. If he's scum, he got hella lucky with his falseclaim (or he's claiming straight and Proph structured it to be just different enough that we wouldn't be able to call foul just off the claims themselves), as I think he's convinced me that his and Rod's abilities can both co-exist on the same team. It's odd that Rod would get flavor (again, Rod gets +town points for coming out with/questioning that) and Mind wouldn't...but I think lynching on something like that, especially with Mind confirming no flavor, is a worse choice than lynching purely on modgaming. So Mind gets some town equity back.
He claimed to have been looking for breadcrumbs. I wanted to see if he was actually doing that.
Note that I don't want him to tell me who he found it on. I just want to see if he's indeed found anything or not.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
It's something I found inconsistent, and I wanted an answer about it. He caught my attention yesterday as somebody who was breadcrumbing my role, and with Rod's claim as well, I want to hear if it was just hypothetical filler, or if there was something more behind it. Clearly there isn't a rolecop, a double watcher, AND another investigative role here. THAT strains credulity to the max.
As something else to consider in the Rhand's mass-claim idea. As long as I'm alive, and town, VTs are essentially Innocent Child claims.
I don't recommend going hog wild, but consider that if we had one VT that wanted to be confirmed tonight. Rodemy can confirm my targeting of that person. I can confirm VT status. The person who claims can either confirm they are VT or not. Don't tell me ahead of time whether you really are VT (BTW, Hunt would have been amazing to test, so if somebody else has a passive, this is your time to shine).
I suppose the only downside would be that scum claims VT and then says I'm lying, which probably does get me killed. But then it's a one-for-one anyway. I suspect that I probably eat the night kill tonight though, if we try.
Worst case, I'm dead. And we've outed one VT.
Best case, I'm still considered a viable mislynch and don't die. We confirm a VT, and we can try another tomorrow. Again, Rodemy needs to be protected, and track my targets.
Devil's advocate, I'm scum, and I use my ability to clear teammates and random townies. I think in this case, there isn't a lot of risk for the town, just having VT claims outed one at a time.
This avoids the downsides of a mass claim (where then the scum know everything), and really only outs the VTs. With the upside of potentially clearing people one at a time.
I assumed Mind was scum claiming due to kind of vanishing, so re-read him looking for people who weren't scum with him. I think you become strongly town if he is scum, but are closer to null/light town if he's town. Rhand is probably pretty strong town for me regardless of Mind's alignment, because of the conviction/belief he had when he thought he caught Mind.
Mind popping up and posting is.. messing with that assumption a little bit.
I guess theoretically there's no harm in letting the info claims alive another day and seeing if scum sort it out for us, but there's obvious pitfalls there.
It's something I found inconsistent, and I wanted an answer about it. He caught my attention yesterday as somebody who was breadcrumbing my role, and with Rod's claim as well, I want to hear if it was just hypothetical filler, or if there was something more behind it. Clearly there isn't a rolecop, a double watcher, AND another investigative role here. THAT strains credulity to the max.
As something else to consider in the Rhand's mass-claim idea. As long as I'm alive, and town, VTs are essentially Innocent Child claims.
I don't recommend going hog wild, but consider that if we had one VT that wanted to be confirmed tonight. Rodemy can confirm my targeting of that person. I can confirm VT status. The person who claims can either confirm they are VT or not. Don't tell me ahead of time whether you really are VT (BTW, Hunt would have been amazing to test, so if somebody else has a passive, this is your time to shine).
I suppose the only downside would be that scum claims VT and then says I'm lying, which probably does get me killed. But then it's a one-for-one anyway. I suspect that I probably eat the night kill tonight though, if we try.
Worst case, I'm dead. And we've outed one VT.
Best case, I'm still considered a viable mislynch and don't die. We confirm a VT, and we can try another tomorrow. Again, Rodemy needs to be protected, and track my targets.
Devil's advocate, I'm scum, and I use my ability to clear teammates and random townies. I think in this case, there isn't a lot of risk for the town, just having VT claims outed one at a time.
This avoids the downsides of a mass claim (where then the scum know everything), and really only outs the VTs. With the upside of potentially clearing people one at a time.
I mean... there's one itty bitty little flaw in this. The world where you are a scum rolecop and know the same things you would if you are the town role you've claimed.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
It's something I found inconsistent, and I wanted an answer about it. He caught my attention yesterday as somebody who was breadcrumbing my role, and with Rod's claim as well, I want to hear if it was just hypothetical filler, or if there was something more behind it. Clearly there isn't a rolecop, a double watcher, AND another investigative role here. THAT strains credulity to the max.
As something else to consider in the Rhand's mass-claim idea. As long as I'm alive, and town, VTs are essentially Innocent Child claims.
I don't recommend going hog wild, but consider that if we had one VT that wanted to be confirmed tonight. Rodemy can confirm my targeting of that person. I can confirm VT status. The person who claims can either confirm they are VT or not. Don't tell me ahead of time whether you really are VT (BTW, Hunt would have been amazing to test, so if somebody else has a passive, this is your time to shine).
I suppose the only downside would be that scum claims VT and then says I'm lying, which probably does get me killed. But then it's a one-for-one anyway. I suspect that I probably eat the night kill tonight though, if we try.
Worst case, I'm dead. And we've outed one VT.
Best case, I'm still considered a viable mislynch and don't die. We confirm a VT, and we can try another tomorrow. Again, Rodemy needs to be protected, and track my targets.
Devil's advocate, I'm scum, and I use my ability to clear teammates and random townies. I think in this case, there isn't a lot of risk for the town, just having VT claims outed one at a time.
This avoids the downsides of a mass claim (where then the scum know everything), and really only outs the VTs. With the upside of potentially clearing people one at a time.
I mean... there's one itty bitty little flaw in this. The world where you are a scum rolecop and know the same things you would if you are the town role you've claimed.
You're right, so lets do some thinking.
First, I'm scum. I know alignments. So I know my target last night is town, unless I got super meta there. But I don't think scum me would target my own team, just for the cred. I think I'd rather hunt for town PRs.
So I go looking for PRs. Which maybe last night I caught a break. I'm untargetable, so nobody tracked me. I can say I targeted literally anyone (except for Grape and whoever else he targeted (I should go look)), and nobody can counterclaim me. Yay. So I could, in theory, have proclaimed somebody like Hunt, town. Hunt is town, I rolecopped him, he's bulletproof. That assumes hunt isn't my partner, because eventually one of us flips, and the other dies too. So I have to trust, that Hunt isn't lying, and also that somehow I can pull off the next night's investigation, because I've already claimed.
So that seems far fetched. I probably can't pull that trick off more than one day. Unless people true-claim all day, erryday.
So maybe I'm lying about how much role information I get. I mean, I'm scum in this scenario, so maybe I know everything. In that case, why wouldn't I just out that town PR, with details? You know, "Killjoy is Town XXXXX". That might work. I could even keep it up, night after night. Rhand is a doctor, Cantrip's vanilla, Shadow is a serial killer, etc.
So *probably* in scum!mind world, if I had such power. I'd be effing using it. Lol.
The last possibility, is I'm straight claiming exactly my power. Telling Vanilla from non-vanilla. Which maybe is an awesome scum power??? So I just... do that? And hope that, what? I live long enough to... figure out all the VTs? I don't know, I can't imagine a world where that's a thing. I just can't. It's so bad.
and you have to admit, I'm going about this dastardly plan in probably the worst way. I would have latched onto the mass claim and picked out somebody at random and say "you lied", and just have you all kill one of us today, coin-flip-gambit style. I mean, that's probably the play.
He claimed to have been looking for breadcrumbs. I wanted to see if he was actually doing that.
Note that I don't want him to tell me who he found it on. I just want to see if he's indeed found anything or not.
I know what his ability does.
O...kay, but still, if he says "oh, I thought I was targeting a cop role", then that gives the scum motivation to comb the thread for that specifically. If they didn't pick it up the first time, they don't need motivation to go back and check "because someone saw something".
It's something I found inconsistent, and I wanted an answer about it. He caught my attention yesterday as somebody who was breadcrumbing my role, and with Rod's claim as well, I want to hear if it was just hypothetical filler, or if there was something more behind it. Clearly there isn't a rolecop, a double watcher, AND another investigative role here. THAT strains credulity to the max.
As something else to consider in the Rhand's mass-claim idea. As long as I'm alive, and town, VTs are essentially Innocent Child claims.
I don't recommend going hog wild, but consider that if we had one VT that wanted to be confirmed tonight. Rodemy can confirm my targeting of that person. I can confirm VT status. The person who claims can either confirm they are VT or not. Don't tell me ahead of time whether you really are VT (BTW, Hunt would have been amazing to test, so if somebody else has a passive, this is your time to shine).
So first off, Rod doesn't see who you target, just that you use an ability, right? So there's not nearly as much confirmation as you assert. Second, you go on record as saying "don't tell me ahead of time" (which should be obvious), but then your language surrounding passives seems very...inviting? Like you're saying "hey, passives, let me know and I'll target you and it'll be amazing"...but a) they shouldn't tell you ahead of time, as you already stated, and b) what does targeting a passive tell us beyond any other power role? You're still going to get "not VT" and we'll be in the same position of "are they town PR or scum?" I feel like I'm missing something, but every time I think it through and still come up with nothing, that little voice inside my head yells "it's a trap!" I agree that you sound sincere. But there are still little things, like calling Bur out on possible cop breadcrumbs and perceived passive-fishing, that make me hesitant to give you a pass.
Quote from Mind »
Again, Rodemy needs to be protected, and track my targets.
Oh. So if this is what you meant, then...I'm still confused by your passive comment. Let's say you and Rodemy both target me tonight and I have a passive ability (not necessarily a real claim, duh). You see "not VT". Rodemy sees "didn't take an action". You come back the next Day and say "Cantrip, I choose you!" I bust out of my pokewhatsit and yell "I'm not VT!" All you've done is revealed me. Or, you remain silent, which still reveals me because you and Rodemy would have had to coordinate your target ahead of time.
Regardless of your alignment, coordinating with Rodemy ahead of time telegraphs to the scum "hey, NK this player because we're about to find out a lot about them, possibly town clear them!" So...now I'm thinking you didn't mean that Rod and you target the same player...yeah, you couldn't possibly have meant that. But Rod doesn't see who you target; he just sees that you took an action.
PLUS, we only know of one protective role at this time, and he only had one shot that's already used, so no guarantees that Rodemy gets protected.
There are so many holes there, I'm massively confused as to how you thought it was a viable plan.
I assumed Mind was scum claiming due to kind of vanishing, so re-read him looking for people who weren't scum with him. I think you become strongly town if he is scum, but are closer to null/light town if he's town. Rhand is probably pretty strong town for me regardless of Mind's alignment, because of the conviction/belief he had when he thought he caught Mind.
Mind popping up and posting is.. messing with that assumption a little bit.
I guess theoretically there's no harm in letting the info claims alive another day and seeing if scum sort it out for us, but there's obvious pitfalls there.
Ok, thanks for clarifying. I mostly agree with that last line, except that this is exactly what got town in trouble in Overwatch. I was on the scum team and we had a heyday keeping power roles alive and going after random/seemingly low-priority targets while the town out-wifomed themselves on which power roles were town or scum. In the end, it almost got us caught because we didn't think about all our actions and AG PoE'd me out, but by then Shadow and I had hammered the win. So...I'm leery. Unfortunately, our current dichotomies feel less clear-cut than what was in that game, so it's hard for me to push a claimed PR lynch, especially an info one.
Not sure where I stand right now. I want Mind to respond to the above, but I'm also thinking Killjoy needs some scrutiny.
First, I'm scum. I know alignments. So I know my target last night is town, unless I got super meta there. But I don't think scum me would target my own team, just for the cred. I think I'd rather hunt for town PRs.
So I go looking for PRs. Which maybe last night I caught a break. I'm untargetable, so nobody tracked me. I can say I targeted literally anyone (except for Grape and whoever else he targeted (I should go look)), and nobody can counterclaim me. Yay. So I could, in theory, have proclaimed somebody like Hunt, town. Hunt is town, I rolecopped him, he's bulletproof. That assumes hunt isn't my partner, because eventually one of us flips, and the other dies too. So I have to trust, that Hunt isn't lying, and also that somehow I can pull off the next night's investigation, because I've already claimed.
So that seems far fetched. I probably can't pull that trick off more than one day. Unless people true-claim all day, erryday.
So maybe I'm lying about how much role information I get. I mean, I'm scum in this scenario, so maybe I know everything. In that case, why wouldn't I just out that town PR, with details? You know, "Killjoy is Town XXXXX". That might work. I could even keep it up, night after night. Rhand is a doctor, Cantrip's vanilla, Shadow is a serial killer, etc.
So *probably* in scum!mind world, if I had such power. I'd be effing using it. Lol.
The last possibility, is I'm straight claiming exactly my power. Telling Vanilla from non-vanilla. Which maybe is an awesome scum power??? So I just... do that? And hope that, what? I live long enough to... figure out all the VTs? I don't know, I can't imagine a world where that's a thing. I just can't. It's so bad.
and you have to admit, I'm going about this dastardly plan in probably the worst way. I would have latched onto the mass claim and picked out somebody at random and say "you lied", and just have you all kill one of us today, coin-flip-gambit style. I mean, that's probably the play.
I'm calling bull on this, because I was just in this position. I was scum rolecop in Overwatch, and I was completely prepared to claim Gunsmith (target a player, learn whether that player has a killing ability or not), and I specifically targeted town players who were already seen as questionable so that I held up behaviorally, but still gleaned info for my team. No, you wouldn't wade into the thread shouting out players and their roles, because that would get you a lot of negative attention. And even a scum role that identifies players as VT or not is useful because it narrows down NK targets. It's not as efficient as pure rolecop, but that could be a balancing element.
So I don't know what you're playing at, but it's not logical, and I don't trust it. Am I missing something? Please, elucidate.
Where are your reads at? I know you think Huntzilla is scum, and I vaguely recall a JoeTerry scum read. Anything else?
I honestly don't know, I have some strong town reads but that's really it. I'm having trouble getting a good feel for anything right now, it's frustrating.
It's something I found inconsistent, and I wanted an answer about it. He caught my attention yesterday as somebody who was breadcrumbing my role, and with Rod's claim as well, I want to hear if it was just hypothetical filler, or if there was something more behind it. Clearly there isn't a rolecop, a double watcher, AND another investigative role here. THAT strains credulity to the max.
As something else to consider in the Rhand's mass-claim idea. As long as I'm alive, and town, VTs are essentially Innocent Child claims.
I don't recommend going hog wild, but consider that if we had one VT that wanted to be confirmed tonight. Rodemy can confirm my targeting of that person. I can confirm VT status. The person who claims can either confirm they are VT or not. Don't tell me ahead of time whether you really are VT (BTW, Hunt would have been amazing to test, so if somebody else has a passive, this is your time to shine).
So first off, Rod doesn't see who you target, just that you use an ability, right? So there's not nearly as much confirmation as you assert. Second, you go on record as saying "don't tell me ahead of time" (which should be obvious), but then your language surrounding passives seems very...inviting? Like you're saying "hey, passives, let me know and I'll target you and it'll be amazing"...but a) they shouldn't tell you ahead of time, as you already stated, and b) what does targeting a passive tell us beyond any other power role? You're still going to get "not VT" and we'll be in the same position of "are they town PR or scum?" I feel like I'm missing something, but every time I think it through and still come up with nothing, that little voice inside my head yells "it's a trap!" I agree that you sound sincere. But there are still little things, like calling Bur out on possible cop breadcrumbs and perceived passive-fishing, that make me hesitant to give you a pass.
Quote from Mind »
Again, Rodemy needs to be protected, and track my targets.
Oh. So if this is what you meant, then...I'm still confused by your passive comment. Let's say you and Rodemy both target me tonight and I have a passive ability (not necessarily a real claim, duh). You see "not VT". Rodemy sees "didn't take an action". You come back the next Day and say "Cantrip, I choose you!" I bust out of my pokewhatsit and yell "I'm not VT!" All you've done is revealed me. Or, you remain silent, which still reveals me because you and Rodemy would have had to coordinate your target ahead of time.
Regardless of your alignment, coordinating with Rodemy ahead of time telegraphs to the scum "hey, NK this player because we're about to find out a lot about them, possibly town clear them!" So...now I'm thinking you didn't mean that Rod and you target the same player...yeah, you couldn't possibly have meant that. But Rod doesn't see who you target; he just sees that you took an action.
PLUS, we only know of one protective role at this time, and he only had one shot that's already used, so no guarantees that Rodemy gets protected.
There are so many holes there, I'm massively confused as to how you thought it was a viable plan.
I guess I'm not reading carefully. Grape was one-shot? Nooooooo. We should have bluffed that last night. I'll just hope that you didn't really use it, and bluffed the thread so far into thinking you did. That should be the story.
Anyway, as far as Rodemy. I thought he got to see the target of his target? So if he targets Cyan last night, and Cyan kills GJ. Rodemy would see "Cyan used an ability targeting GJ". If I'm wrong there, I'm sorry I thought he was a watcher or a tracker or something. That's why I've been saying he could target me, and get the result of "Mindreaver used an ability and targetted so-and-so". If that's not how it works, then yeah, my plan is garbage.
As for Overwatch. Is it okay to confess I haven't read it? LoL. I guess my scum mindset is lacking imagination.
And for the passives comment. What I'm saying is, that something like "bulletproof" behaves just like vanilla for all intents and purposes. So there is no way, outside of me 1) Being a fullblown rolecop or 2) Telling the difference between vanilla and not vanilla, that I'd be able to tell VT from them. It takes out "mind is a tracker" or any other such non-sense. It's the perfect way to "tell" my Vanilla Town ability is legit. Otherwise, we're just having VTs say they are VT and me saying "yup".
It was also meant as wine, so that if somebody did have a super awesome amazing ability, and just didn't want it outed (and they trust that i'm not a scum full-rolecop) they could safely say "I'm VT", then tomorrow I say "no you aren't" and they say "yep, I'm actually The Flying Pumpkin That Shoots Laser Beams Out Of Its Ass" (or lynchproof or deathproof or virgin or what have you).
@TRSJT You not responding to my reads list at all after asking for it is shaking that town read I talked about earlier.
1. What are you talking about?
2. Why are you using town reads like dog bisquits?
3. I've been hiking all day
4. I have 2% battery on my cell atm
1. You asked me to expand on my town reads. Two days ago I did. I said I had a strong town read in you that would take a lot to shake it.
2. Wut?
3. Fair enough. I didn't realize you were busy since you had responded to the Mindraver/Rod shenanigans since then.
4. Then get off here and save it for if bears start chasing you.
Where are your reads at? I know you think Huntzilla is scum, and I vaguely recall a JoeTerry scum read. Anything else?
I honestly don't know, I have some strong town reads but that's really it. I'm having trouble getting a good feel for anything right now, it's frustrating.
Do you want to take a guess why I think it might be easy for you to tell us who is town and hard for you to tell us who is scum?
@TRSJT You not responding to my reads list at all after asking for it is shaking that town read I talked about earlier.
1. What are you talking about?
2. Why are you using town reads like dog bisquits?
3. I've been hiking all day
4. I have 2% battery on my cell atm
1. You asked me to expand on my town reads. Two days ago I did. I said I had a strong town read in you that would take a lot to shake it.
2. Wut?
3. Fair enough. I didn't realize you were busy since you had responded to the Mindraver/Rod shenanigans since then.
4. Then get off here and save it for if bears start chasing you.
1. I didn't think that needed a response from me, but thank you for explaining. I just don't like blanket statements without out explanation.
2. I didn't like that you were basically saying, hey sjt, respond to me and I'll give you a town cookie
3. I'm still technically VLA but trying to keep up via mobile
4. I made it! Yeah!
Where are your reads at? I know you think Huntzilla is scum, and I vaguely recall a JoeTerry scum read. Anything else?
I honestly don't know, I have some strong town reads but that's really it. I'm having trouble getting a good feel for anything right now, it's frustrating.
I can understand that, but I'm not really seeing any attempt from you to /get/ a good feel on things. Can you talk to me about Gruffinchops and Bur?
Where are your reads at? I know you think Huntzilla is scum, and I vaguely recall a JoeTerry scum read. Anything else?
I honestly don't know, I have some strong town reads but that's really it. I'm having trouble getting a good feel for anything right now, it's frustrating.
I can understand that, but I'm not really seeing any attempt from you to /get/ a good feel on things. Can you talk to me about Gruffinchops and Bur?
GC is in my 'solidly town' pile. No real read on Bur.
And you're right, I'm not trying to get a real read on things as much as I should. I just have minimal interest in this game/mafia right now.
@Cantrip: I mean, breadcrumbs are kinda subjective. Like, someone using the phrase "nursing your wounds" can be interpreted as a doc breadcrumb. Or it's just a phrase. My point is that, after he claims his target (eventually, not now) we can see if he's telling the truth there.
Like, there's not a lot of things we can do to figure him out. Either we full on out a PR or we find an alternative that hopefully tells us what he was looking for.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
If mind is scum, then I'd bet his results from last night were put in scum chat, so I think he should definitely claim his target.
But that's not the scenerio that matters. What matters is the situation where Mindreaver is town and outs a power role. If he's scum, why would we trust his results at all? Shadow you are scum aren't you? What bothers me more is that mindreaver is MIA, has he been prodded?
I agree that Rodemy should fullclaim.
I don't agree that Mind should claim his target immediately after. If he targeted a claimed PR then sure, but I don't see the point in outing yet another one.
@Quixotic: why is there no mention of Kitbits in your Rodemy read?
why is everyone so anxious for full claims? Why would we ask rodemy for a full claim before mindreaver?
How about we do some old fashioned sleuthing instead of asking everyone to claim? Let's try this...
Cyan you should have been lynched yesterday.
Vote: Cyan
Also Mindreaver's claim is fishy, sounds like a scum role. Could just be a role cop for scum. I feel a bit deceived by him because nothing about his claimed role would confirm him as town like he promised. I know I'm not the first to mention this either.
If cyan starts to act town, I could go for a mindreaver push.
Also, if mindreaver targeted me I give permission to share his result
You do it again in the post where you vote him. All Cyan gets is that he should’ve been lynched already. It feels to me like you’re trying to justify yourself voting without trying to convince anyone to join you on the wagon.
I'm starting to feel like Terry is planting his vote on me as an excuse to not actually have to participate in the game.
/barn. Makes me feel better about Cyan again.
---
I’ve been thinking more about Grapefruit. I thought I was wrong because his role checks out and his targets make sense. But then thinking further, GJ was kind of a weird NK. We had claimed power in Hunt, Grape, Shadow, Fulcrum and Mind. We had Rodemy widely regarded as town.
If all of those are town: Grape was going to protect Shadow +1. Hunt was BP. That leaves Fulcrum, Mind and Rodemy as possible good kills. Why would scum shoot outside of that? Wouldn’t Rodemy be regarded as a completely safe kill with 2 claimed PR’s as possibilities for the +1?
I think the GJ kills makes sense with a team that has Grape in it.
I know it is a lot of wine, but I think I towncleared Grape for his night action choice too quickly.
I've been trying to reread this thread but every time I do I suddenly have the urge to so anything else.
My gut is saying the lynch should be between Hunt and Cyan today but I definitely haven't read enough to be as confident as I feel. I'm also inclined to vote mind based on Rodemys partial claim. This doesn't feel like a double investigative game and VT cop feels like a role Proph would give scum. But that is bad mod gaming because I didn't go check further back in prophs catalog like I promised.
So what I will say is my confident I will never lynch today group: Rod, Gruffin, Quixotic, Shadow, and Rhand. Think that's an okay place to start.
The bolded: “Doesn’t feel like”? We don’t have any flipped PR’s. How did you get a feeling for the setup that leads you to that conclusion that this particular game is not double investigative? You make it sound like you have seen double investigative games before, but somehow you feel that this isn’t one of those. Why?
Time is short. I do agree with the dichotomy between Mind and Rodemy... I just don't have specific townreads on either. Although I did have a scumread on Mind yesterday pending his action. I'm willing to vote mind.
I'll wait for a VC to make sure that no shenannigans happen.
This post bothers me. He’s willing to vote mind because he “did have” a scumread on him.
@Cantrip: Let's assume Mindreaver got killed and flipped town. How does that affect your read on Rodemy?
It'd probably bring him down from towncleared to just likely town, but still likely town. The risk to scum to counterclaim (specifically presenting it as a counterclaim) is too high to chance. Of course, my belief that he would still be town may demonstrate that the risk isn't too high, but...still doesn't feel like something that comes from any but the most hellaciously brazen scum.
I like both question and answer here. I’m feeling better and better about Bur.
@Bur: does it always take you long to start being inquisitive?
Mind's role is absolutely a weakened Cop role. If he were scum, it would be a weakened Rolecop, but it's hard to imagine an already not-overpowered scum role needing to be Weakened.
Do you think that makes him town then?
---
I agree we probably shouldn’t be massclaiming this early, but that also means we shouldn’t be lynching Mind. If he is town, we don’t want to waste his ability. But it IS important that whoever gets targeted by Mind claims their target before Mind claims who he targeted. Otherwise it’s all moot and we might as well just lynch him.
Yes. Like I said, time is short. And I was willing to lynch him yesterday, but the only reason I stopped was because claim.
Then there was a (I guess possible) dichotomy so between Mind and Rodemy, I chose Mind as being the lynch target because Mind was scummier. Rethinknig that, maybe their abilities can go together on the same side, IDK.
But until we figure out if Mind is telling the truth, we can't discount the possibility that he's a scum rolecop trying to claim weak town investigative to get by.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
Target someone, learn if they are pr/scum vs target someone, learn if they used an action is almost the same.
I'm getting ready for another guided tour and don't have time to us emy pc for quotes, but KJ and Terry look pretty bad here. And I'm not a fan of Cyan's view where to different weak protective roles cannot co-exist but two similar investigative roles can. Investigative is way more powerful than protective.
Here's where I'm at after that ISO, and operating off of Scum!Mindreaver world:
Me: Quixotic
Strong Town: Rodemy, Shadowlancer, Rhand, Cantripmancer, Fulcrum
Lean Town: Kill Joy, Cyan, Grapefruit
Null-ish: JoeTerry, Gruffinchops
Lean Scum: Huntzilla, Bur
Strong Scum: Mindreaver
I'm probably wrong about one of the town reads somewhere, but if I have 4 scum in the bottom 5, I want credit postgame.
@Mind: What role do you THINK your target had?
I think this is a good middle ground between having them claim and testing to see if Mind is telling the truth.
I'm not sure claiming the target is a good idea.
If Mind is scum, then we gain nothing. And if he's a rolecop, he might use the chance to tell his team who is a PR if the results aren't posted in their chat.
If he is town, then I'm not sure if the chance of outing another PR is worth it. If he hit scum, he'll simply cause that scum to claim PR when he needs to claim.
The role if town is only powerful to catch scum in lies later on if they ever claim vanilla.
Actually that makes me think... should we massclaim and then have Mind out his target? If Mind is town that or leaving him alive are the only ways of using his info. And if Mind is town, the whole scumteam is kind of forced to claim PRs out of fear that Mind targeted them, which should net us a useful situation.
On the other hand, if he's scum, we would just spill all info scum needs into the thread. Of which lots is spilled already.
Meh. I don't know. Thoughts anyone?
Anyways, if Mind flips scum rolecop, I think KJ is scum with him. That question asking him about the role of his target is awful.
I'll address a few things about my target for now.
1) No I didn't target GJ. There was no point in my PoV. I thought he'd breadcrumbed Vig, and I was townreading him anyway. So that would have been a wasted shot to learn nothing of relevance.
2) I can't tell if the person I targeted is scum or a PR still. I was hoping the person would have been more active. I'm still trying to determine what to do here. But I would say it's not scummy to want me to reveal this target. I do see the PoV where I'm scum, and it's not in my interest to ever reveal who I targeted, since that would mean whoever it is, is lock town. Although, that PoV doesn't really matter, but I can't prove that.
I'm not fully understanding why Rodemy and I are a dichotomy? His ability wouldn't tell you the same things mine does... like at all. He's just a double watcher right? Hunt and Cyan didn't target last night. k. Are they confirmed VT? no. Are they confirmed town? No. They might not have performed the nightkill. They might have targeted abilities they didn't use.
Like, I do understand that on the surface, we're doing similar things. And maybe I just suck at understanding mafia design. But why can't these exist together? Neither one seems completely overpowered in a game this size. I can imagine a setup of 6 town targeted abilities, 2 town passives, 4 VTs, 4 scum. That would give me 25% to hit VT, 25% to hit scum, and ~43% to hit some other combination. That would also give Rodemy roughly 6/14*6/13 = 20% chance to hit somebody targeting somebody else. Seems elegant enough. Neither of us is going to bring conclusive evidence to the thread every night, just one in four or five nights. Probably less than that, with a little luck and smart targeting.
How would we work together? How do these two roles combined even work together?
Thing about how much better this situation would be if you'd watched me last night, and grape didn't make me untargetable. We'd both be able to look at <redacted> to be determining scum or town PR. If nothing else, you'd compile enough info to eventually POE faster than anyone else.
Like, that's exactly why I said "on the surface". YOu might know they aren't VT. But you don't know if they are town or scum.
PLUS, if they don't do *****, like last night. What do you know? Is hunt bulletproof? Can you answer that? Is Cyan scum? Does Cyan have a one-shot ability that he didn't use? Does Hunt?
My ability answers at least some of those questions, with approximately the same frequency.
I had that as a cop breadcrumb (or maybe some kind of reverse innocent child), but you've been completely silent since my claim. Anything to add?
Cyan, I don't really understand. He was definitely on my short list, for not having really breadcrumbed anything. But I suppose you might have gotten lucky and he'd have performed the nightkill. That was the thinking, correct?
Your abilty doesnt say if they are town or scum either, so bolded is an odd thing to use for an argument.
Oh! I got you.
Still think you are lying.
Actually, wait... how paraphrased is that?
Your ability only checks to see if somebody USES an ability. IF you find somebody who uses a targeted ability, YES, you have found out they aren't Vanilla, specifically. But you can get false negatives, because people don't have to use their ability every night or they might not have a targeted ability. You get no alignment information, ever.
Now, on the flip side. I get alignment information, but ONLY in the event that my target doesn't have an ability. I get the same false negatives (is this scum, or is this town with an ability), if I get a negative result. The benefit is, that if I find one of the X vanilla town out there, I get their alignment confirmed.
That's the difference. And I don't see them as exactly the same, just because we would have both gotten ambiguous results on say, Hunt's claim. Neither of us can prove that one. That's either an amazing scum claim, which I'm not ruling out. But it also is starting to look like a role that the town investigative powers can't verify. Which might be good balance if he is town.
In any case, just because you can prove that somebody isn't vanilla town, doesn't mean I can't also exist proving that people are vanilla town. Because mine is a direct compare, and yours is derived from logic. If your role was "I get to know if they have an ability or not", I'd agree with you, we can't exist together. But it isn't. You're taking it the extra step of "I watch, therefore if I get a positive result, I know they have an ability, therefore I'm a role cop just like you". Which isn't the case.
Very odd. My results were flavored...
Your logic is good, and I think you're town for it.
Why are you asking this?
Not all mods are as nice as Brin was in Overwatch. Often scum have to risk trying to communicate their info to their buddies in secret if they want them to know ability results before the following Night.
I agree with your first three sentences, but I don't see how you're arriving at a scum!Shadow conclusion. Can you explain?
Are you saying we're town if Mind is scum, or regardless?
What does revealing his target gain us, exactly? If you think he's scum (hence the lynch), then whatever he says becomes instant wifom. And if he's town, then we know that his target is either a PR or scum...but does the benefit of catching scum outweigh the potential of outing a PR? If Mind's town, the benefit/strength of his role is being able to call scum out on bull claims. If we're lynching him, then I'm thinking he needs to keep quiet about his target.
Not only does this demonstrate that you're not reading the game (because that's not what Mind claimed his ability does), but why WHY WHY would you ever encourage someone to "out" a specific role that they knew was in the game?
Whup, my above comment was sarnath'd.
Eh.......maybe? It feels suboptimal to massclaim this early in the game, but we have 1-2 protective roles outed, 1-2 info roles outed...it's an odd situation in that you're right: it could lead to scum all claiming power (or not claiming power and getting caught). But first Mind has to be town. That feels like it could totally backfire if he's scum. My inclination was to find you suspicious for suggesting this, but I can totally see where you're coming from. I don't think we should do it, though.
So Mind's 958 and 972 make me feel a lot better about him. If he's scum, he got hella lucky with his falseclaim (or he's claiming straight and Proph structured it to be just different enough that we wouldn't be able to call foul just off the claims themselves), as I think he's convinced me that his and Rod's abilities can both co-exist on the same team. It's odd that Rod would get flavor (again, Rod gets +town points for coming out with/questioning that) and Mind wouldn't...but I think lynching on something like that, especially with Mind confirming no flavor, is a worse choice than lynching purely on modgaming. So Mind gets some town equity back.
I'm not a big fan of this, though: @Mind: Why highlight your cop suspicions?
Note that I don't want him to tell me who he found it on. I just want to see if he's indeed found anything or not.
I know what his ability does.
As something else to consider in the Rhand's mass-claim idea. As long as I'm alive, and town, VTs are essentially Innocent Child claims.
I don't recommend going hog wild, but consider that if we had one VT that wanted to be confirmed tonight. Rodemy can confirm my targeting of that person. I can confirm VT status. The person who claims can either confirm they are VT or not. Don't tell me ahead of time whether you really are VT (BTW, Hunt would have been amazing to test, so if somebody else has a passive, this is your time to shine).
I suppose the only downside would be that scum claims VT and then says I'm lying, which probably does get me killed. But then it's a one-for-one anyway. I suspect that I probably eat the night kill tonight though, if we try.
Worst case, I'm dead. And we've outed one VT.
Best case, I'm still considered a viable mislynch and don't die. We confirm a VT, and we can try another tomorrow. Again, Rodemy needs to be protected, and track my targets.
Devil's advocate, I'm scum, and I use my ability to clear teammates and random townies. I think in this case, there isn't a lot of risk for the town, just having VT claims outed one at a time.
This avoids the downsides of a mass claim (where then the scum know everything), and really only outs the VTs. With the upside of potentially clearing people one at a time.
I assumed Mind was scum claiming due to kind of vanishing, so re-read him looking for people who weren't scum with him. I think you become strongly town if he is scum, but are closer to null/light town if he's town. Rhand is probably pretty strong town for me regardless of Mind's alignment, because of the conviction/belief he had when he thought he caught Mind.
Mind popping up and posting is.. messing with that assumption a little bit.
I guess theoretically there's no harm in letting the info claims alive another day and seeing if scum sort it out for us, but there's obvious pitfalls there.
I mean... there's one itty bitty little flaw in this. The world where you are a scum rolecop and know the same things you would if you are the town role you've claimed.
Where are your reads at? I know you think Huntzilla is scum, and I vaguely recall a JoeTerry scum read. Anything else?
First, I'm scum. I know alignments. So I know my target last night is town, unless I got super meta there. But I don't think scum me would target my own team, just for the cred. I think I'd rather hunt for town PRs.
So I go looking for PRs. Which maybe last night I caught a break. I'm untargetable, so nobody tracked me. I can say I targeted literally anyone (except for Grape and whoever else he targeted (I should go look)), and nobody can counterclaim me. Yay. So I could, in theory, have proclaimed somebody like Hunt, town. Hunt is town, I rolecopped him, he's bulletproof. That assumes hunt isn't my partner, because eventually one of us flips, and the other dies too. So I have to trust, that Hunt isn't lying, and also that somehow I can pull off the next night's investigation, because I've already claimed.
So that seems far fetched. I probably can't pull that trick off more than one day. Unless people true-claim all day, erryday.
So maybe I'm lying about how much role information I get. I mean, I'm scum in this scenario, so maybe I know everything. In that case, why wouldn't I just out that town PR, with details? You know, "Killjoy is Town XXXXX". That might work. I could even keep it up, night after night. Rhand is a doctor, Cantrip's vanilla, Shadow is a serial killer, etc.
So *probably* in scum!mind world, if I had such power. I'd be effing using it. Lol.
The last possibility, is I'm straight claiming exactly my power. Telling Vanilla from non-vanilla. Which maybe is an awesome scum power??? So I just... do that? And hope that, what? I live long enough to... figure out all the VTs? I don't know, I can't imagine a world where that's a thing. I just can't. It's so bad.
and you have to admit, I'm going about this dastardly plan in probably the worst way. I would have latched onto the mass claim and picked out somebody at random and say "you lied", and just have you all kill one of us today, coin-flip-gambit style. I mean, that's probably the play.
So first off, Rod doesn't see who you target, just that you use an ability, right? So there's not nearly as much confirmation as you assert. Second, you go on record as saying "don't tell me ahead of time" (which should be obvious), but then your language surrounding passives seems very...inviting? Like you're saying "hey, passives, let me know and I'll target you and it'll be amazing"...but a) they shouldn't tell you ahead of time, as you already stated, and b) what does targeting a passive tell us beyond any other power role? You're still going to get "not VT" and we'll be in the same position of "are they town PR or scum?" I feel like I'm missing something, but every time I think it through and still come up with nothing, that little voice inside my head yells "it's a trap!" I agree that you sound sincere. But there are still little things, like calling Bur out on possible cop breadcrumbs and perceived passive-fishing, that make me hesitant to give you a pass.
Oh. So if this is what you meant, then...I'm still confused by your passive comment. Let's say you and Rodemy both target me tonight and I have a passive ability (not necessarily a real claim, duh). You see "not VT". Rodemy sees "didn't take an action". You come back the next Day and say "Cantrip, I choose you!" I bust out of my pokewhatsit and yell "I'm not VT!" All you've done is revealed me. Or, you remain silent, which still reveals me because you and Rodemy would have had to coordinate your target ahead of time.
Regardless of your alignment, coordinating with Rodemy ahead of time telegraphs to the scum "hey, NK this player because we're about to find out a lot about them, possibly town clear them!" So...now I'm thinking you didn't mean that Rod and you target the same player...yeah, you couldn't possibly have meant that. But Rod doesn't see who you target; he just sees that you took an action.
PLUS, we only know of one protective role at this time, and he only had one shot that's already used, so no guarantees that Rodemy gets protected.
There are so many holes there, I'm massively confused as to how you thought it was a viable plan.
Ok, thanks for clarifying. I mostly agree with that last line, except that this is exactly what got town in trouble in Overwatch. I was on the scum team and we had a heyday keeping power roles alive and going after random/seemingly low-priority targets while the town out-wifomed themselves on which power roles were town or scum. In the end, it almost got us caught because we didn't think about all our actions and AG PoE'd me out, but by then Shadow and I had hammered the win. So...I'm leery. Unfortunately, our current dichotomies feel less clear-cut than what was in that game, so it's hard for me to push a claimed PR lynch, especially an info one.
Not sure where I stand right now. I want Mind to respond to the above, but I'm also thinking Killjoy needs some scrutiny.
EWP:
I'm calling bull on this, because I was just in this position. I was scum rolecop in Overwatch, and I was completely prepared to claim Gunsmith (target a player, learn whether that player has a killing ability or not), and I specifically targeted town players who were already seen as questionable so that I held up behaviorally, but still gleaned info for my team. No, you wouldn't wade into the thread shouting out players and their roles, because that would get you a lot of negative attention. And even a scum role that identifies players as VT or not is useful because it narrows down NK targets. It's not as efficient as pure rolecop, but that could be a balancing element.
So I don't know what you're playing at, but it's not logical, and I don't trust it. Am I missing something? Please, elucidate.
2. Why are you using town reads like dog bisquits?
3. I've been hiking all day
4. I have 2% battery on my cell atm
I honestly don't know, I have some strong town reads but that's really it. I'm having trouble getting a good feel for anything right now, it's frustrating.
Anyway, as far as Rodemy. I thought he got to see the target of his target? So if he targets Cyan last night, and Cyan kills GJ. Rodemy would see "Cyan used an ability targeting GJ". If I'm wrong there, I'm sorry I thought he was a watcher or a tracker or something. That's why I've been saying he could target me, and get the result of "Mindreaver used an ability and targetted so-and-so". If that's not how it works, then yeah, my plan is garbage.
As for Overwatch. Is it okay to confess I haven't read it? LoL. I guess my scum mindset is lacking imagination.
It was also meant as wine, so that if somebody did have a super awesome amazing ability, and just didn't want it outed (and they trust that i'm not a scum full-rolecop) they could safely say "I'm VT", then tomorrow I say "no you aren't" and they say "yep, I'm actually The Flying Pumpkin That Shoots Laser Beams Out Of Its Ass" (or lynchproof or deathproof or virgin or what have you).
1. You asked me to expand on my town reads. Two days ago I did. I said I had a strong town read in you that would take a lot to shake it.
2. Wut?
3. Fair enough. I didn't realize you were busy since you had responded to the Mindraver/Rod shenanigans since then.
4. Then get off here and save it for if bears start chasing you.
2. I didn't like that you were basically saying, hey sjt, respond to me and I'll give you a town cookie
3. I'm still technically VLA but trying to keep up via mobile
4. I made it! Yeah!
I can understand that, but I'm not really seeing any attempt from you to /get/ a good feel on things. Can you talk to me about Gruffinchops and Bur?
GC is in my 'solidly town' pile. No real read on Bur.
And you're right, I'm not trying to get a real read on things as much as I should. I just have minimal interest in this game/mafia right now.
He did math.
Like, there's not a lot of things we can do to figure him out. Either we full on out a PR or we find an alternative that hopefully tells us what he was looking for.
Do you really believe the bolded?
Why do you post snap-shots like this?
You do it again in the post where you vote him. All Cyan gets is that he should’ve been lynched already. It feels to me like you’re trying to justify yourself voting without trying to convince anyone to join you on the wagon.
/barn. Makes me feel better about Cyan again.
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I’ve been thinking more about Grapefruit. I thought I was wrong because his role checks out and his targets make sense. But then thinking further, GJ was kind of a weird NK. We had claimed power in Hunt, Grape, Shadow, Fulcrum and Mind. We had Rodemy widely regarded as town.
If all of those are town: Grape was going to protect Shadow +1. Hunt was BP. That leaves Fulcrum, Mind and Rodemy as possible good kills. Why would scum shoot outside of that? Wouldn’t Rodemy be regarded as a completely safe kill with 2 claimed PR’s as possibilities for the +1?
I think the GJ kills makes sense with a team that has Grape in it.
I know it is a lot of wine, but I think I towncleared Grape for his night action choice too quickly.
The bolded: “Doesn’t feel like”? We don’t have any flipped PR’s. How did you get a feeling for the setup that leads you to that conclusion that this particular game is not double investigative? You make it sound like you have seen double investigative games before, but somehow you feel that this isn’t one of those. Why?
If Mind does flip scum I’ll want to thank this post.
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This post bothers me. He’s willing to vote mind because he “did have” a scumread on him.
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Why Fulcrum? That seems to come out of nowhere?
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I like both question and answer here. I’m feeling better and better about Bur.
@Bur: does it always take you long to start being inquisitive?
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Do you think that makes him town then?
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I agree we probably shouldn’t be massclaiming this early, but that also means we shouldn’t be lynching Mind. If he is town, we don’t want to waste his ability. But it IS important that whoever gets targeted by Mind claims their target before Mind claims who he targeted. Otherwise it’s all moot and we might as well just lynch him.
unvote
vote TheRealStinkyJoeTerry
Then there was a (I guess possible) dichotomy so between Mind and Rodemy, I chose Mind as being the lynch target because Mind was scummier. Rethinknig that, maybe their abilities can go together on the same side, IDK.
But until we figure out if Mind is telling the truth, we can't discount the possibility that he's a scum rolecop trying to claim weak town investigative to get by.
However, the way he claimed was sincere. So IDK.
Unrelated, I need to reread the end of Day yesterday to see what pops out of the wagons.