Kwaan and I met by happenstance--though, I suppose, he would use the word "providence."
I have met many other Terris philosophers since that day. They are, every one, men of great wisdom and ponderous sagaciousness. Men with an almost palpable importance.
Not so Kwaan. In a way, he is as unlikely a prophet as I am a hero. He never had an air of ceremonious wisdom--nor was he even a religious scholar. When we first met, he was studying one of his ridiculous interests in the great Khlenni library--I believe he was trying to determine whether or not trees could think.
That he should be the one who finally discovered the great Hero of Terris prophecy is a matter that would cause me to laugh, had events turned out just a little differently.
@Terry: because Rodemy's claim of their roles not being in the same game is something I would like to make my own opinion on.
That permission to share the result thing will backfire if everyone does it. All vanilla's will say ok, and the only ones who might not are town PR's that have not yet been outed.
I agree that Rodemy should fullclaim.
I don't agree that Mind should claim his target immediately after. If he targeted a claimed PR then sure, but I don't see the point in outing yet another one.
@Quixotic: why is there no mention of Kitbits in your Rodemy read?
Well, claiming is a sure fire way for me to die tonight. Because my ability is kinda cool.
I can target 2 people and find out if they took a night action.
Hunt and cyan did not, btw.
So a find out if target is vt or not seems a little redundant, when mine does about the same thing
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@Cantrip: What did I do that makes you specifically feel like I was pocketing you? Can't say I was doing so intentionally, you were pretty disconnected from the game.
You just seemed really intent on town-clearing me, even when I went AWOL. Like, early on you questioned Cyan's townread on me, but then, long after I had gone dark, you put me in your top-three town and referred to my "oh you" as the main reason. (I wasn't really trying to reassure you with that...more like acknowledge that you were giving me a compliment for my strong play.) Your explanation for that made a bit more sense, but then your "why are you in my brain, Cantrip" in 667 also felt...off. Like you were both trying to show that you were thinking the same thing and also lamenting that we were on the same wavelength. Which, for the topic of conversation (what Fulcrum's statement meant about Hunt's alignment), didn't make sense that you'd be sad/frustrated, as we'd be Figuring Things Out (tm).
As an aside, you used the term "CFD" in 686 (and someone else did, too, I think); what is CFD?
Lets see. I think the best answer to this questiom is ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Some part of me wishes that you'd get vigged. Another part of me is sad since I doubt it'll happen.
Why do you want KJ to be vigged? Do you think he's scum? It sounds like your tone is that you're setting your two "parts" in opposition: part A wants KJ to be vigged, BUT part B is sad...but it's sad because you think the vigging won't happen. The tone of this whole post feels very off. Can you elaborate on your mindset here?
Town?
Rhand - I recall having several mindmeld moments with him
Gruffin - Mindmeld (though not as much as I had with Rhand)
Mindreaver - Claim + not having a counterwagon
shadow - I liked how he displayed paranoia in regards of me early this game + something else I don't remember right now
Rodemy - gut feeling
In addition to you continuing to sound very wishy-washy, I don't like the bolded. Why did you feel the need to tack that on?
I consider it extremely unlikely both protective claims are town, but it's a possibility. Leaning towards Grape town and Hunt scum currently, but hoping those two further separate themselves behaviorally.
I am a little less reserved about the possibility that town has two protective-type roles, especially if they're both 1-shot, but I agree that Grape is townier than Hunt.
That permission to share the result thing will backfire if everyone does it. All vanilla's will say ok, and the only ones who might not are town PR's that have not yet been outed.
/barn
Vote Mindreaver
I agree that it's highly unlikely that Mind's and Rod's abilities exist on two town roles. Much more likely that Mind is scum, since scum-Rod doesn't cc there just to remove a "town vanilla" cop.
I agree that Rodemy should fullclaim.
I don't agree that Mind should claim his target immediately after. If he targeted a claimed PR then sure, but I don't see the point in outing yet another one.
@Quixotic: why is there no mention of Kitbits in your Rodemy read?
Well, claiming is a sure fire way for me to die tonight. Because my ability is kinda cool.
I can target 2 people and find out if they took a night action.
Hunt and cyan did not, btw.
So a find out if target is vt or not seems a little redundant, when mine does about the same thing
#1 Is your ability 1-shot? Yes/No/No comment
#2 Why Cyan and Hunt?
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@Cantrip: What did I do that makes you specifically feel like I was pocketing you? Can't say I was doing so intentionally, you were pretty disconnected from the game.
You just seemed really intent on town-clearing me, even when I went AWOL. Like, early on you questioned Cyan's townread on me, but then, long after I had gone dark, you put me in your top-three town and referred to my "oh you" as the main reason. (I wasn't really trying to reassure you with that...more like acknowledge that you were giving me a compliment for my strong play.) Your explanation for that made a bit more sense, but then your "why are you in my brain, Cantrip" in 667 also felt...off. Like you were both trying to show that you were thinking the same thing and also lamenting that we were on the same wavelength. Which, for the topic of conversation (what Fulcrum's statement meant about Hunt's alignment), didn't make sense that you'd be sad/frustrated, as we'd be Figuring Things Out (tm).
You kinda misread the tone of my 667. We posted very similar posts in 645/646, and then when I went to type 667, you'd basically covered exactly what I wanted to say again. I wasn't lamenting it, I was incredulous that it could have been anything but organically aligned thoughts, which is why I listed kept you in my top three town. As far as the "oh you" do you think you'd do that identically as either alignment? I feel like that specific retort is more likely a town reaction, but I'll again clarify that you have felt wholly town anyways, and my warning to cyan early game was not reflective of my actual read of you.
Quote from Cantrip »
As an aside, you used the term "CFD" in 686 (and someone else did, too, I think); what is CFD?
Chinese fire drill; basically doing a last minute wagon switch to someone else.
@Rhand: Do you believe Rodemy and Mind to be a strict dichotomy? Does a psuedo role cop and a crappy double tracker overlap that much?
I'm inclined to agree Mind is much more likely scum here. Almost a shame, since it's an interesting role and I was going to give Proph kudos postgame for the design of it, if it was town. Since getting a "Scum" result here would have just meant "PR or Scum" and needing to analyse behavior is a nice twist.
Vote: Mindreaver
I don't think I want to end the day yet, though. Deadlines are relatively short and I'd like to make some use of the day phase and poke at some other people,as well re-read Mindreaver to hunt for probable buddies. (Part of me is lazy and wants to wait for the actual flip just in case, but....)
I agree that Rodemy should fullclaim.
I don't agree that Mind should claim his target immediately after. If he targeted a claimed PR then sure, but I don't see the point in outing yet another one.
@Quixotic: why is there no mention of Kitbits in your Rodemy read?
Well, claiming is a sure fire way for me to die tonight. Because my ability is kinda cool.
I can target 2 people and find out if they took a night action.
Hunt and cyan did not, btw.
So a find out if target is vt or not seems a little redundant, when mine does about the same thing
#1 Is your ability 1-shot? Yes/No/No comment
#2 Why Cyan and Hunt?
#1: not answering this.
#2: i was after them yesterDay. Trying to see if hunt was lying and took the nk. Also to see if cyan was a pr.
These two questions are strange and i dont like them. That first one in particular.
It sounds like if you were scum, you'd be checking if i was still a threat. Not liking that.
Also i have to go back but fulcrum soft claimed some info? On why we shouldnt lynch hunt...
I had a thought. I think it might be a good idea to save figuring out Hunt for tomorrow and look elsewhere, for reasons.
I'll stick with Bur's wanting to lynch Hunt for 'reasons' instead.
On the one hand, I kind of just want to move my vote to AG, because he also seems highly likely to be scum. On the other hand, if he flips scum, I'm still just going to want to lynch Hunt anyway so.
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Quixotic's point is why I am a bit worried they might be both town. Proph does not like traditional cops and it seems like something he'd do. And Flucrum did strongly hint he'd have more info about Hunt so we need to hear it before zeroing in on Mind for today.
Quixotic's point is why I am a bit worried they might be both town. Proph does not like traditional cops and it seems like something he'd do. And Flucrum did strongly hint he'd have more info about Hunt so we need to hear it before zeroing in on Mind for today.
Metagaming the GM? YEAH NO.
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Eh. If they didn't so clearly occupy the same information space (Does this person have a night action?) I'd be more worried about that. Plus Mind just kind of went anti-spew mode since he claimed a provable role and I can't remember a single thing he's posted since then (outside of his Claim today).
@Cantrip: What did I do that makes you specifically feel like I was pocketing you? Can't say I was doing so intentionally, you were pretty disconnected from the game.
You just seemed really intent on town-clearing me, even when I went AWOL. Like, early on you questioned Cyan's townread on me, but then, long after I had gone dark, you put me in your top-three town and referred to my "oh you" as the main reason. (I wasn't really trying to reassure you with that...more like acknowledge that you were giving me a compliment for my strong play.) Your explanation for that made a bit more sense, but then your "why are you in my brain, Cantrip" in 667 also felt...off. Like you were both trying to show that you were thinking the same thing and also lamenting that we were on the same wavelength. Which, for the topic of conversation (what Fulcrum's statement meant about Hunt's alignment), didn't make sense that you'd be sad/frustrated, as we'd be Figuring Things Out (tm).
You kinda misread the tone of my 667. We posted very similar posts in 645/646, and then when I went to type 667, you'd basically covered exactly what I wanted to say again. I wasn't lamenting it, I was incredulous that it could have been anything but organically aligned thoughts, which is why I listed kept you in my top three town. As far as the "oh you" do you think you'd do that identically as either alignment? I feel like that specific retort is more likely a town reaction, but I'll again clarify that you have felt wholly town anyways, and my warning to cyan early game was not reflective of my actual read of you.
Ok, well, at first glance I didn't really see what you were talking about with 645/646, but yeah, we both were indicating Hunt as the best lynch of the Day. I'm not sure that I felt like we were "in each other's heads" there, but whatever. The "lament" element of 667 came, I think, from your use of "why" vs. "how". "Why are you in my head" sounds a little like "get out of my head!" If you had said "how are you in my head" it would have sounded more like wonder/amazement. Regarding "oh you"...well, recent success has given me an egotistical mindcanon that says I'm in a place where I play every game exactly the same no matter my alignment. That's probably not accurate, but given that my reasoning for posting that was to communicate "blushing at your comment", I don't really feel like it indicates my alignment, regardless. That's probably why I'm questioning why you're townreading me for it.
Quote from Shadow »
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As an aside, you used the term "CFD" in 686 (and someone else did, too, I think); what is CFD?
Chinese fire drill; basically doing a last minute wagon switch to someone else.
Dangit. Someone in Lights Out 2 explained that to me and I forgot. Thanks.
Quote from Shadow »
@Rhand: Do you believe Rodemy and Mind to be a strict dichotomy? Does a psuedo role cop and a crappy double tracker overlap that much?
...why not address this to me, too, given that I'm voting Mind for pretty much stating that I think the two of them are probably a dichotomy?
Before I forget again...
@Fulcrum: Do you still feel like we shouldn't lynch Hunt toDay? If so, why not?
I'm inclined to agree Mind is much more likely scum here. Almost a shame, since it's an interesting role and I was going to give Proph kudos postgame for the design of it, if it was town. Since getting a "Scum" result here would have just meant "PR or Scum" and needing to analyse behavior is a nice twist.
I see it more as an elegant rolecop variant.
Quote from quixotic »
I don't think I want to end the day yet, though. Deadlines are relatively short and I'd like to make some use of the day phase and poke at some other people,as well re-read Mindreaver to hunt for probable buddies. (Part of me is lazy and wants to wait for the actual flip just in case, but....)
How do you expect to poke at people (which I read as "apply pressure to get responses" if you're stating that Mind is likely your lynch candidate regardless?
Quixotic's point is why I am a bit worried they might be both town. Proph does not like traditional cops and it seems like something he'd do. And Flucrum did strongly hint he'd have more info about Hunt so we need to hear it before zeroing in on Mind for today.
Metagaming the GM? YEAH NO.
Why not? I still think mind is scum here, but his claim seems like a town role I'd expect in this game if not for your claim.
I mean, I don't need the threat of a lynch to ask people questions and try to pry stances out of them.
I have a couple outstanding questions I'm waiting on answers for, and want to do a bit of re-reading myself, as my first read through was more of a catch up semi-skim than super in depth.
Time is short. I do agree with the dichotomy between Mind and Rodemy... I just don't have specific townreads on either. Although I did have a scumread on Mind yesterday pending his action. I'm willing to vote mind.
I'll wait for a VC to make sure that no shenannigans happen.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
Ok, well, at first glance I didn't really see what you were talking about with 645/646, but yeah, we both were indicating Hunt as the best lynch of the Day. I'm not sure that I felt like we were "in each other's heads" there, but whatever. The "lament" element of 667 came, I think, from your use of "why" vs. "how". "Why are you in my head" sounds a little like "get out of my head!" If you had said "how are you in my head" it would have sounded more like wonder/amazement.
Fair enough, probably could have phrased that better.
Quote from Cantrip »
Regarding "oh you"...well, recent success has given me an egotistical mindcanon that says I'm in a place where I play every game exactly the same no matter my alignment. That's probably not accurate, but given that my reasoning for posting that was to communicate "blushing at your comment", I don't really feel like it indicates my alignment, regardless. That's probably why I'm questioning why you're townreading me for it.
It was cheeky and I liked it, and at that point I already wanted to town read you, so I took it in the best possible light. (Yeah, I probably shouldn't have taken it the way I did, but I can't go back now)
Quote from Cantrip »
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@Rhand: Do you believe Rodemy and Mind to be a strict dichotomy? Does a psuedo role cop and a crappy double tracker overlap that much?
...why not address this to me, too, given that I'm voting Mind for pretty much stating that I think the two of them are probably a dichotomy?
Really need to hear from Fulcrum about Huntz because I'm pretty sure he is the only thing that saved Huntzilla yesterday.
it doesn't look like we have a vig, so a bullet proof scum would seem pointless. It's just a question if hunt is actually bullet proof. If he is, he's a great town asset. We have some pretty good scum leads we can pursue at the moment.
Like cyan, who's crying about me voting him and basically OMGUSing me by saying that I'm parking a vote on him instead of playing. That being said I'd support a mindreaver lynch as well. He's a lurkasaurus rex right now.
Really need to hear from Fulcrum about Huntz because I'm pretty sure he is the only thing that saved Huntzilla yesterday.
it doesn't look like we have a vig, so a bullet proof scum would seem pointless. It's just a question if hunt is actually bullet proof. If he is, he's a great town asset. We have some pretty good scum leads we can pursue at the moment.
Like cyan, who's crying about me voting him and basically OMGUSing me by saying that I'm parking a vote on him instead of playing. That being said I'd support a mindreaver lynch as well. He's a lurkasaurus rex right now.
@mind: what steps have you been taking to look for vt in the thread?
I spent yesterday looking for breadcrumbs (actually, lack thereof). I'm actually surprised GJ ended up VT, because I had him as breadcrumbing vig. Although, that might have just been a gambit to draw the night kill.
Not sure if there's anything to it, but it's possible GJ was a vig hunting kill, as evidenced by Mind's comment. Scum thinking there's a vig = slightly more likely that Hunt is scum, but it's thin, since... most large games have a vig, I'd think.
This is exactly why I asked who Mind targeted last night, before Terry tried to turn that into a point against me. I still think that Mind should answer this.
Also, how can you guys think that Hunt and Grape's role can exist on the same side, but not Mindreaver and Rodemy?
Rodemy is certainly the most town of the 4, but still.
Really need to hear from Fulcrum about Huntz because I'm pretty sure he is the only thing that saved Huntzilla yesterday.
it doesn't look like we have a vig, so a bullet proof scum would seem pointless. It's just a question if hunt is actually bullet proof. If he is, he's a great town asset. We have some pretty good scum leads we can pursue at the moment.
Why do you say it doesn't look like we have a vig? I would agree that it seems less likely that we have an unlimited vig (barring someone protecting a vig target), but limited vig is still a possibility, even if there were good vig targets last Night.
Not sure if there's anything to it, but it's possible GJ was a vig hunting kill, as evidenced by Mind's comment. Scum thinking there's a vig = slightly more likely that Hunt is scum, but it's thin, since... most large games have a vig, I'd think.
I agree that Mind's comment may support Mind being scum and that's why GJ was killed, but I don't think I agree that SJT's comment ties him in the same way.
Also, how can you guys think that Hunt and Grape's role can exist on the same side, but not Mindreaver and Rodemy?
Rodemy is certainly the most town of the 4, but still.
Two 1-shot protective abilities on town aren't overpowered/unbalanced, especially in a 16-player game, and with completely different modes of employment (one being self-protective every Night until used up; one being a calculated "I think I or these two other players are going to be killed toNight"). But Mind and Rodemy both have a targeted Power Cop-esque ability, possibly unlimited (we haven't gotten confirmation from either, iirc). Protection <<< Info, in most cases, so I think it's less likely that we have two near-identical info roles, even if the mode of employment is slightly different. And yes, given that I felt like Rodemy was mostly being townread before his cc, I feel like this practically townclears him, as even he's not crazy enough (I don't think) as scum to 1-for-1 just to eliminate a Vanilla-Town Cop.
@Cantrip: Let's assume Mindreaver got killed and flipped town. How does that affect your read on Rodemy?
It'd probably bring him down from towncleared to just likely town, but still likely town. The risk to scum to counterclaim (specifically presenting it as a counterclaim) is too high to chance. Of course, my belief that he would still be town may demonstrate that the risk isn't too high, but...still doesn't feel like something that comes from any but the most hellaciously brazen scum.
But Mind and Rodemy both have a targeted Power Cop-esque ability, possibly unlimited (we haven't gotten confirmation from either, iirc)
I've seen countless games where the town had a Cop and a Tracker/Watcher. This game has weaker versions of both of these roles. I just don't see what the big deal is. If anything, you could argue that the roles independently being so weak was specifically done so that they could both exist on the same side.
It's also worth nothing that I strongly suspect that this game has a ton of VT, further diminishing the usefulness of Mindreaver's role.
Mindreaver really does need to tell us whom he targeted last night though. Like ASAP.
Yeah, plus scum!Rod wouldn't know what other info roles are out there, especially this early in the game, so he runs the risk of being outed simply through logic, even if people continue believing him after Mind flips town. Pretty sure Rod's town.
But Mind and Rodemy both have a targeted Power Cop-esque ability, possibly unlimited (we haven't gotten confirmation from either, iirc)
I've seen countless games where the town had a Cop and a Tracker/Watcher. This game has weaker versions of both of these roles. I just don't see what the big deal is. If anything, you could argue that the roles independently being so weak was specifically done so that they could both exist on the same side.
I disagree that we're looking at weak-Cop + weak-tracker/watcher. Mind is "is target player vanilla town or other", which makes it a power-role indicator with a side of "can find scum". Rod's claim is "did these two players take actions", which is also a power-role indicator, albeit weaker (in that it doesn't trigger on passive power roles or players who don't take action the Night they're targeted), but also more powerful because there are two targets. It feels like overlapping abilities.
Although...I can see where you're coming from. If I hadn't had strong suspicions on Mind D1, I think I'd be less immediate to vote him, but his D1 play combined with Rod's claim...I think he's scum.
I'm torn on whether he should say whom he targeted. Like, if he's scum, he's probably going to say it if he's going to be lynched, to communicate to his scumbuddies if nothing else, but make the case for why he should claim his target "ASAP" if he's town, as opposed to when he feels like it's most beneficial?
Mind's role is absolutely a weakened Cop role. If he were scum, it would be a weakened Rolecop, but it's hard to imagine an already not-overpowered scum role needing to be Weakened.
Eh, **** it, with Rodemy's claim this seems kind of pointless.
I thought there was a chance Hunt was a powerrole but /not/ a bulletproof, and was claiming bp to avoid getting shot. There were a couple different things from his claim that seemed off, namely:
1. Some people with Hunt meta were saying that he seemed like he was trying to avoid a bullet.
2. When he claimed bulletproof, he then immediately demanded people get off him, which doesn't make sense, because bulletproof isn't a confirmably town role. Hunt should have known his claim wouldn't dissuade, which made his bravado really weird.
3. When Grape claimed a protective role, Hunt was not at all interested in investigating.
4. Hunt then claimed that it was because he was a one-shot bp and that being forced to claim that ruined his utility. This made no sense as there's still a dichotomy that demands /some/ thought and the utility of a bp role is ruined when it claims at all, not when the number of uses is claimed.
This led me to conclude that Hunt was either a /different/ pr or mafia. I thought the former was more likely because Hunt's bp claim isn't a viable role to claim as scum in order to avoid a lynch. I then moved to protect him while dropping some clues, as I hoped that either a. he was a different pr, and would come back with something useful today or b. I was blowing this out of proportion, but mafia would be convinced and mgith try to shoot him (this was more of a pipe dream than anything, but whatever).
But, with Rodemy's claim, it seems likely that Hunt is just scum who overestimated his survive-ability. I don't really regret saving him, as I believe it was the +ev play, though I imagine I will get lynched for it. Sorry?
It's possible, of course, that Rodemy is lying, but iirc he is behaviorally way outside of his range, so yeah.
Eh, **** it, with Rodemy's claim this seems kind of pointless.
I thought there was a chance Hunt was a powerrole but /not/ a bulletproof, and was claiming bp to avoid getting shot. There were a couple different things from his claim that seemed off, namely:
1. Some people with Hunt meta were saying that he seemed like he was trying to avoid a bullet.
2. When he claimed bulletproof, he then immediately demanded people get off him, which doesn't make sense, because bulletproof isn't a confirmably town role. Hunt should have known his claim wouldn't dissuade, which made his bravado really weird.
3. When Grape claimed a protective role, Hunt was not at all interested in investigating.
4. Hunt then claimed that it was because he was a one-shot bp and that being forced to claim that ruined his utility. This made no sense as there's still a dichotomy that demands /some/ thought and the utility of a bp role is ruined when it claims at all, not when the number of uses is claimed.
This led me to conclude that Hunt was either a /different/ pr or mafia. I thought the former was more likely because Hunt's bp claim isn't a viable role to claim as scum in order to avoid a lynch. I then moved to protect him while dropping some clues, as I hoped that either a. he was a different pr, and would come back with something useful today or b. I was blowing this out of proportion, but mafia would be convinced and mgith try to shoot him (this was more of a pipe dream than anything, but whatever).
But, with Rodemy's claim, it seems likely that Hunt is just scum who overestimated his survive-ability. I don't really regret saving him, as I believe it was the +ev play, though I imagine I will get lynched for it. Sorry?
It's possible, of course, that Rodemy is lying, but iirc he is behaviorally way outside of his range, so yeah.
you won't get lynched. I will. Then I'll flip town. And that will be that.
This is exactly why I asked who Mind targeted last night, before Terry tried to turn that into a point against me. I still think that Mind should answer this.
Also, how can you guys think that Hunt and Grape's role can exist on the same side, but not Mindreaver and Rodemy?
Rodemy is certainly the most town of the 4, but still.
But Mind and Rodemy both have a targeted Power Cop-esque ability, possibly unlimited (we haven't gotten confirmation from either, iirc)
I've seen countless games where the town had a Cop and a Tracker/Watcher. This game has weaker versions of both of these roles. I just don't see what the big deal is. If anything, you could argue that the roles independently being so weak was specifically done so that they could both exist on the same side.
It's also worth nothing that I strongly suspect that this game has a ton of VT, further diminishing the usefulness of Mindreaver's role.
Mindreaver really does need to tell us whom he targeted last night though. Like ASAP.
Eh, **** it, with Rodemy's claim this seems kind of pointless.
I thought there was a chance Hunt was a powerrole but /not/ a bulletproof, and was claiming bp to avoid getting shot. There were a couple different things from his claim that seemed off, namely:
1. Some people with Hunt meta were saying that he seemed like he was trying to avoid a bullet.
2. When he claimed bulletproof, he then immediately demanded people get off him, which doesn't make sense, because bulletproof isn't a confirmably town role. Hunt should have known his claim wouldn't dissuade, which made his bravado really weird.
3. When Grape claimed a protective role, Hunt was not at all interested in investigating.
4. Hunt then claimed that it was because he was a one-shot bp and that being forced to claim that ruined his utility. This made no sense as there's still a dichotomy that demands /some/ thought and the utility of a bp role is ruined when it claims at all, not when the number of uses is claimed.
This led me to conclude that Hunt was either a /different/ pr or mafia. I thought the former was more likely because Hunt's bp claim isn't a viable role to claim as scum in order to avoid a lynch. I then moved to protect him while dropping some clues, as I hoped that either a. he was a different pr, and would come back with something useful today or b. I was blowing this out of proportion, but mafia would be convinced and mgith try to shoot him (this was more of a pipe dream than anything, but whatever).
But, with Rodemy's claim, it seems likely that Hunt is just scum who overestimated his survive-ability. I don't really regret saving him, as I believe it was the +ev play, though I imagine I will get lynched for it. Sorry?
It's possible, of course, that Rodemy is lying, but iirc he is behaviorally way outside of his range, so yeah.
I think Fulcrum is pretty much always town here for this. I don't think it's the line they take as scum/scum, and the way she's looking ahead at how she's going to look/be lynched after Hunt flips scum strikes me as being very town. So like. She's town if Hunt is scum, and town if Hunt is town.
I can even follow the logic for shielding him somewhat. I think the mindset inconsistency with the role + trying to get run up + him griping about the role being useless now indicates scum more than PR hiding, but I believe it's something she believed.
I go to sleep for a weekend, and we're off AG? Did he ever come back? I must be missing something.
If guess if my choices at the end of today are Hunt or Grape, I'd be more interested in going after Grape, just based on those wagons.
Is there a good post detailing the Hunt/AG connection I can look at? That's probably the only way I'm voting hunt, if I can be convinced they are a team.
So, doing a bit of a re-read of Mindreaver. Pretty sure Hunt is scum if Mind is scum. This is the classic willingness to vote a buddy if someone they know is town flips scum.
Multiple instances of interactions with Mindreaver/Shadow that I don't think are scum/scum. Shadow's probably town anyways due volunteering to test Grapes role, and therefore locking himself into a targeting action, but it is nice to have the interaction reinforcement.
If mind is scum, then I'd bet his results from last night were put in scum chat, so I think he should definitely claim his target.
But that's not the scenerio that matters. What matters is the situation where Mindreaver is town and outs a power role. If he's scum, why would we trust his results at all? Shadow you are scum aren't you? What bothers me more is that mindreaver is MIA, has he been prodded?
If mind is scum, then I'd bet his results from last night were put in scum chat, so I think he should definitely claim his target.
But that's not the scenerio that matters. What matters is the situation where Mindreaver is town and outs a power role. If he's scum, why would we trust his results at all? Shadow you are scum aren't you? What bothers me more is that mindreaver is MIA, has he been prodded?
If he's town, there is a very real chance that he found scum. And unfortunately his disappearing is pretty NAI, he did the same thing in Barebones as town.
Kwaan and I met by happenstance--though, I suppose, he would use the word "providence."
I have met many other Terris philosophers since that day. They are, every one, men of great wisdom and ponderous sagaciousness. Men with an almost palpable importance.
Not so Kwaan. In a way, he is as unlikely a prophet as I am a hero. He never had an air of ceremonious wisdom--nor was he even a religious scholar. When we first met, he was studying one of his ridiculous interests in the great Khlenni library--I believe he was trying to determine whether or not trees could think.
That he should be the one who finally discovered the great Hero of Terris prophecy is a matter that would cause me to laugh, had events turned out just a little differently.
[1] Bur - killjoy
[1] Mindreaver - Rodemy
[1] Cyan - TheRealStinkyJoeTerry
Not Voting: Grapefruit21, quixotic72, shadowlancerx, Bur, Mindreaver, Gruffinchops, Cantripmancer, Cyan, fulcrum, Huntzilla, Rhand, shadowlancerx
Deadline is in nine days.
That permission to share the result thing will backfire if everyone does it. All vanilla's will say ok, and the only ones who might not are town PR's that have not yet been outed.
Well, claiming is a sure fire way for me to die tonight. Because my ability is kinda cool.
I can target 2 people and find out if they took a night action.
Hunt and cyan did not, btw.
So a find out if target is vt or not seems a little redundant, when mine does about the same thing
I think your semi-counterclaim already accomplished the painting a target on your back thing Rodemy
As an aside, you used the term "CFD" in 686 (and someone else did, too, I think); what is CFD?
Why do you want KJ to be vigged? Do you think he's scum? It sounds like your tone is that you're setting your two "parts" in opposition: part A wants KJ to be vigged, BUT part B is sad...but it's sad because you think the vigging won't happen. The tone of this whole post feels very off. Can you elaborate on your mindset here?
In addition to you continuing to sound very wishy-washy, I don't like the bolded. Why did you feel the need to tack that on?
How do you plan to do this?
I am a little less reserved about the possibility that town has two protective-type roles, especially if they're both 1-shot, but I agree that Grape is townier than Hunt.
/barn
Vote Mindreaver
I agree that it's highly unlikely that Mind's and Rod's abilities exist on two town roles. Much more likely that Mind is scum, since scum-Rod doesn't cc there just to remove a "town vanilla" cop.
#1 Is your ability 1-shot? Yes/No/No comment
#2 Why Cyan and Hunt?
@Rhand: Do you believe Rodemy and Mind to be a strict dichotomy? Does a psuedo role cop and a crappy double tracker overlap that much?
Vote: Mindreaver vanilla cop + Rod seems like a little too much investigative power to me.
Vote: Mindreaver
I don't think I want to end the day yet, though. Deadlines are relatively short and I'd like to make some use of the day phase and poke at some other people,as well re-read Mindreaver to hunt for probable buddies. (Part of me is lazy and wants to wait for the actual flip just in case, but....)
#1: not answering this.
#2: i was after them yesterDay. Trying to see if hunt was lying and took the nk. Also to see if cyan was a pr.
These two questions are strange and i dont like them. That first one in particular.
It sounds like if you were scum, you'd be checking if i was still a threat. Not liking that.
Also i have to go back but fulcrum soft claimed some info? On why we shouldnt lynch hunt...
So, what was it?
Metagaming the GM? YEAH NO.
Ok, well, at first glance I didn't really see what you were talking about with 645/646, but yeah, we both were indicating Hunt as the best lynch of the Day. I'm not sure that I felt like we were "in each other's heads" there, but whatever. The "lament" element of 667 came, I think, from your use of "why" vs. "how". "Why are you in my head" sounds a little like "get out of my head!" If you had said "how are you in my head" it would have sounded more like wonder/amazement. Regarding "oh you"...well, recent success has given me an egotistical mindcanon that says I'm in a place where I play every game exactly the same no matter my alignment. That's probably not accurate, but given that my reasoning for posting that was to communicate "blushing at your comment", I don't really feel like it indicates my alignment, regardless. That's probably why I'm questioning why you're townreading me for it.
Dangit. Someone in Lights Out 2 explained that to me and I forgot. Thanks.
...why not address this to me, too, given that I'm voting Mind for pretty much stating that I think the two of them are probably a dichotomy?
Before I forget again...
@Fulcrum: Do you still feel like we shouldn't lynch Hunt toDay? If so, why not?
EWP:
I see it more as an elegant rolecop variant.
How do you expect to poke at people (which I read as "apply pressure to get responses" if you're stating that Mind is likely your lynch candidate regardless?
Why not? I still think mind is scum here, but his claim seems like a town role I'd expect in this game if not for your claim.
I have a couple outstanding questions I'm waiting on answers for, and want to do a bit of re-reading myself, as my first read through was more of a catch up semi-skim than super in depth.
I'll wait for a VC to make sure that no shenannigans happen.
Like cyan, who's crying about me voting him and basically OMGUSing me by saying that I'm parking a vote on him instead of playing. That being said I'd support a mindreaver lynch as well. He's a lurkasaurus rex right now.
Hrm. This just jogged my memory, let me go back.
Here, this.
Also, how can you guys think that Hunt and Grape's role can exist on the same side, but not Mindreaver and Rodemy?
Rodemy is certainly the most town of the 4, but still.
Why do you say it doesn't look like we have a vig? I would agree that it seems less likely that we have an unlimited vig (barring someone protecting a vig target), but limited vig is still a possibility, even if there were good vig targets last Night.
I agree that Mind's comment may support Mind being scum and that's why GJ was killed, but I don't think I agree that SJT's comment ties him in the same way.
Two 1-shot protective abilities on town aren't overpowered/unbalanced, especially in a 16-player game, and with completely different modes of employment (one being self-protective every Night until used up; one being a calculated "I think I or these two other players are going to be killed toNight"). But Mind and Rodemy both have a targeted Power Cop-esque ability, possibly unlimited (we haven't gotten confirmation from either, iirc). Protection <<< Info, in most cases, so I think it's less likely that we have two near-identical info roles, even if the mode of employment is slightly different. And yes, given that I felt like Rodemy was mostly being townread before his cc, I feel like this practically townclears him, as even he's not crazy enough (I don't think) as scum to 1-for-1 just to eliminate a Vanilla-Town Cop.
It'd probably bring him down from towncleared to just likely town, but still likely town. The risk to scum to counterclaim (specifically presenting it as a counterclaim) is too high to chance. Of course, my belief that he would still be town may demonstrate that the risk isn't too high, but...still doesn't feel like something that comes from any but the most hellaciously brazen scum.
I've seen countless games where the town had a Cop and a Tracker/Watcher. This game has weaker versions of both of these roles. I just don't see what the big deal is. If anything, you could argue that the roles independently being so weak was specifically done so that they could both exist on the same side.
It's also worth nothing that I strongly suspect that this game has a ton of VT, further diminishing the usefulness of Mindreaver's role.
Mindreaver really does need to tell us whom he targeted last night though. Like ASAP.
Although...I can see where you're coming from. If I hadn't had strong suspicions on Mind D1, I think I'd be less immediate to vote him, but his D1 play combined with Rod's claim...I think he's scum.
I'm torn on whether he should say whom he targeted. Like, if he's scum, he's probably going to say it if he's going to be lynched, to communicate to his scumbuddies if nothing else, but make the case for why he should claim his target "ASAP" if he's town, as opposed to when he feels like it's most beneficial?
Unvote
I thought there was a chance Hunt was a powerrole but /not/ a bulletproof, and was claiming bp to avoid getting shot. There were a couple different things from his claim that seemed off, namely:
1. Some people with Hunt meta were saying that he seemed like he was trying to avoid a bullet.
2. When he claimed bulletproof, he then immediately demanded people get off him, which doesn't make sense, because bulletproof isn't a confirmably town role. Hunt should have known his claim wouldn't dissuade, which made his bravado really weird.
3. When Grape claimed a protective role, Hunt was not at all interested in investigating.
4. Hunt then claimed that it was because he was a one-shot bp and that being forced to claim that ruined his utility. This made no sense as there's still a dichotomy that demands /some/ thought and the utility of a bp role is ruined when it claims at all, not when the number of uses is claimed.
This led me to conclude that Hunt was either a /different/ pr or mafia. I thought the former was more likely because Hunt's bp claim isn't a viable role to claim as scum in order to avoid a lynch. I then moved to protect him while dropping some clues, as I hoped that either a. he was a different pr, and would come back with something useful today or b. I was blowing this out of proportion, but mafia would be convinced and mgith try to shoot him (this was more of a pipe dream than anything, but whatever).
But, with Rodemy's claim, it seems likely that Hunt is just scum who overestimated his survive-ability. I don't really regret saving him, as I believe it was the +ev play, though I imagine I will get lynched for it. Sorry?
It's possible, of course, that Rodemy is lying, but iirc he is behaviorally way outside of his range, so yeah.
Mind wasn't as scummy D1 as Huntzilla to me even if the claims look worse for Mind.
The role analysis I agree with.
I think Fulcrum is pretty much always town here for this. I don't think it's the line they take as scum/scum, and the way she's looking ahead at how she's going to look/be lynched after Hunt flips scum strikes me as being very town. So like. She's town if Hunt is scum, and town if Hunt is town.
I can even follow the logic for shielding him somewhat. I think the mindset inconsistency with the role + trying to get run up + him griping about the role being useless now indicates scum more than PR hiding, but I believe it's something she believed.
So, doing a bit of a re-read of Mindreaver. Pretty sure Hunt is scum if Mind is scum. This is the classic willingness to vote a buddy if someone they know is town flips scum.