Not a fan of Grapefruit wagon either. Don't think he has done anything that wolfy, and Shadow's point seems to only really apply if Bur is a wolf too (and it feels like a really weird distance/bus point if they are W/W).
Quote from AtheistGod »
I really like #251, moves Kitbits to town in my eyes. Getting a lot more town reads than scum reads so far. Cantrip, Kitbits, Rhand, Shadow all sound town to me.
@Terry: Why do you think my vote is still on Bur?
More hedge, and no voting despite the fact a large chunk of Kit's post was a vote and reason for voting me. Vote AtheistGod.
Top of Brain list
VV
GJ
Kitbits
V
Cyan
Shadow
Rhand
Cantripmancer
Grapefruit
Mind
Null Line
W
AtheistGod
Cythare
Huntzilla
Are you voting me for liking Kit's #251 without voting you when you just said you liked Kit's #251 as well? What's the difference between you liking that post and me liking it?
I couldn't say with the current amount of information available. I could say that you did that to gauge my reaction as town, but there's also the possibility that you asked to make it look like you are trying to figure me out as scum. Hard to tell.
Why are you feeling good about me?
Explain the bolded, please.
And: you are asking lots of good questions and really seem to be trying to figure people out (#62 and #65 are good examples). And you are expressing your thoughts but not giving town reads like free candy, which is a good sign.
What I'm getting at is questions like "Are you town?" don’t strictly come from town. For example, in a scum!Bur world, you could ask me that and say, "It was a reaction test to figure you out!" to make it look like you are gamesolving by fishing for reactions. As such, I recognize that question as NAI given how indistinguishable the motivations behind it are.
Ah okay. I initially though you meant that as "scumBur pretends to scumhunt people by asking them if they are scum or not and taking the answer at face value" and the reaction test part never occurred to me.
(I hope this answer your question to me at #135, Cantrip)
@Grapefruit #89 Why should I care about RVS votes on me?
Also, in #93 you said I'm scum for being invested in game. Now I'm scum for not being invested in this game. Which way is it?
#289 How would it affect you if I told you that I've been jokey in town games in really serious in scum games? How would it affect your "jokey Bur = scum" metaread?
@GJ #101 Why do you think scum wouldn't RVS me? Especially if it's someone like Hunt for example, who has history with me.
#157 How that the RVS aren't unvoting are adding to the point that I'm toxic lynchbait? Also, your point that there aren't more votes coming to me seems bit weird, since my wagon atm consists mainly of RVS votes. Would scum really start pushing a wagon that is mainly made of RVS votes?
For now: Unvote
I need to read some ISOs, since I don't have any tangible reads at the moment.
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Quote from Prophylaxis »
Also modgaming Bur setups is kind of treading down a dark path
Also GJ, are you literally null on 5 people and just not listing them?
Basically. I don't see a reason to lay them as null. I know bur was town on my list and joe was wolf previously and they both moved and I'm not sure what to do about it.
"He shall defend their ways, yet shall violate them. He will be their savior; yet they shall call him heretic. His name shall be Discord, yet they shall love him for it."
@Bur my read was that you were super invested early as scum before losing steam. If you have games that contradict that read and the seriousness read I'd be happy to take a look.
I'm sorry for wussing out, but something came up in my personal I don't have the time to play this right now. With whats happening right now I need to devote my time to that and not this.
I'm sorry for quiting on my first game on this website. If I play again on here I promise to be more active, I really just can't do this.
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Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"Human kind can not gain anything without first giving something in return. To obtain something of equal value must be lost. That is Alchemy's first law of equivalent exchange." ~Alphonse Elric
GJ's response to my post only makes me even more convinced he's scum. Agreeing with/appeasing me without actually confronting my accusations. A way to get someone to lower their guard without them realizing and make them doubt their own scum read. He's not defensive because that's what I criticized him for but he's trying to get me off his back in a subtle way, I believe.
Another thing is, scum love to town read me because I look very townie in the way I present myself. The thing is though, town is uninformed and must be paranoid by nature, no one can automatically be sure of my alignment just from my tone. But scum see me looking townie and decide it's safe to back me since it looks obvious to them- because they're informed.
I'm saying this because it stands out to me the GJ in particular has me and only me in his VV/very townie list (besides himself), something he still hasn't exactly explained besides saying he likes my posts and thinks I'm pure (I'm not sure what pure means in the context of mafia). With more people slightly backing that read he can feel confident in leaving it like that without bothering to explain, too. Problem is his biggest town read is scum reading him, and just says I'm being "lolKit" instead of taking me seriously. Buddying me but invalidating my read.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
Not a fan of Grapefruit wagon either. Don't think he has done anything that wolfy, and Shadow's point seems to only really apply if Bur is a wolf too (and it feels like a really weird distance/bus point if they are W/W).
Quote from AtheistGod »
I really like #251, moves Kitbits to town in my eyes. Getting a lot more town reads than scum reads so far. Cantrip, Kitbits, Rhand, Shadow all sound town to me.
@Terry: Why do you think my vote is still on Bur?
More hedge, and no voting despite the fact a large chunk of Kit's post was a vote and reason for voting me. Vote AtheistGod.
Top of Brain list
VV
GJ
Kitbits
V
Cyan
Shadow
Rhand
Cantripmancer
Grapefruit
Mind
Null Line
W
AtheistGod
Cythare
Huntzilla
that's interesting!
Love to talk to you about your made up reasons for reading me wolfy.
Second GJ what's scummy about Cythare? They have not made any impression on me this game.
After that whole talk we had about LHF and GJ going after the low postcounts, this is what you need to ask?
And why do you ignore the fact that he didn't even answer your question?
Two quick questions did Mind have v/la? I wasn't into his wagon but it's kind of fishy that he vanished right after he got rid of the pressure.
Not intentional. My son's been really sick, and weekends are tough for me. So I mentioned it, and said I'd get an update in earlier (specifically the questions I owe people), but I've just been catching up on sleep.
Town
Gentleman Johnny - There are some posts that are giving me pause. Particularly the last one about Ctan's 249 (called it good analysis, which I have to be honest, wasn't what I see there). But overall seems to be analyzing and willing to re-evaluate as new information comes it, with respect to his scum reads AND his townreads.
Kitbits - Probably my strongest tone read, I haven't seen much from him that hasn't screamed town to me.
Cantripmancer - Despite our interactions, I do think Cantrip is town. His points have largely been valid, without agenda. In some cases he's taken things I've said and misinterpreted. But that's a two-way street, and I can see his perspective. I don't see scum trying to push, I see town trying to investigate.
Lean Town
shadowlancerx - I'm not sure I have enough to call shadow town. Especially since his scum game is pretty strong, especially tone. But I do appreciate his thought process, and although I do get more of a "Gotcha" vibe from some of his posts (in contrast to Cantrip), I'm not seeing how it could fit in with a plan (trying to push me in hte first 3 pages would have been a REALLY bad scum plan, and I think shadow would know that).
TheRealStinkyJoeTerry - I spoke about how I'm reading Terry, having just finished a game with him. I am more null on him then town, but his gruff arguments aren't the worst, even if I do think they are somewhat emotional vs logical. But like GJ, he's re-evaluating scum and town reads.
Grapefruit21 - weakest townlean right now. It's mostly tone, and how he's interacting with people I have as null or scummy (Rhand, Bur, being hte two big ones).
Null
Gruffinchops - Has some posts I thought were very town, and others was very questionable. I just don't know at this point. Active though, so that's better than some of these others.
LogicoftheVI - Haven't heard enough to form an opinion, especially since we've never played together.
Bur - See Logic
Suspect but still null
Huntzilla - Hunt has made such little impact, that I forgot he was even on my wagon. I couldn't point to a specific scummy post, but since it's hunt on day 1, that troubles me somewhat. I'd like to see more from him, offering specifics on the next five:
Rhand - I am always suspect of Rhand. He's had really strong town-posts, but that interaction with GJ (104) was super suspect. It's not enough to condemn, but it definitely stuck in my head as "oh *****, he just nailed me". "Do I do that?" seemed forced. Behaviorally though, I think he's pushing the right people, AKA Hunt, Apacado, Cythere. While interacting favorably with GJ and Cantrip, specially over the "lynch from the bottom up" discussion. I don't think scum participates in that discussion one way or another.
Lean Scum
Apocado - Vote on me was gross and oppotunistic. The reason wasn't at all a good one (159). Hasn't read my game, but I "sound forced", in the only game we've ever played. There were *lots* of better reasons already given by others for joining the wagon, and Rhand even contrasted his vote with Hunts, and got no response.
Cyan - One liners the whole game, but still managed to join the leading wagon. That's garbage. I see piling on the easy target, and offering little in the way of original thought. This is my top scum suspect at the moment.
Cythare - similarly I haven't seen much here. I'd put this as null, but ISO him from this game. One post that says "tomorrow" and a second one that says "responding to prod". That's it. That level of disengagement either needs to request replacement, or is being purposely evacive. I'm not sure which. With activity or with replacement, could easily move to null.
AtheistGod - Wasn't blown away by the entrance (231). How can somebody be hard null in the first place? isn't that just "null". Mentioning it at all feels like filler, when you're coming into the game state. He's also stating the case on me being reasonable, but that he hasn't read my posts. Cantrip pounced on this, but I think the simplest explanation was he read Cantrip's long-post about me, and sheeped it. That may come from town, but combined with the nothing read on Cyan, and going out of his way to say Shadow and Rhand are town (with no mention of Cantrip btw) combine to show me a sloppy summary of his thought process.
That T/S screams scum.
First off, his GJ read: he puts him on top of the town pile and then waffles like crazy when explaining the read. Same for the Cantrip read, but to a smaller extent.
Kitbits is "probably" the strongest tone read? Why add that qualifier?
The Shadow read: what kind of plan are you looking for when hunting for scum Mind?
The Hunt read smells like a scumbuddy.
The Rhand read: Have you even read my posts? Those 3 are not who I've been pushing?
The AG read: same as GJ but the other way around. He puts him on the bottom of the scum pile and then says that what he's doing might come from town.
That kind of waffling in a T/S reminds me of Zomgarcwind's T/S in Overwatch.
Okay I caught up, here is my thoughts on everyone so far. I do understand its the holidays and this day is gonna take longer than normal because of it but some people i just dont have reads on yet
Town:
Zomgarcwind
Ophidia – early claim, that comes from someone desperate to make it a few days in rather than always die D1/N1. #174 could be scummy though, making the town assume the T:S ratios etc.
Vaimes- This feels like town vaimes right now, he is trying to stop stupid wagons from starting and scum hunting for real scum not for the easy lynch and flip
Rodemy- His behavior is the same behavior he has every day 1, even his scum game plays this way day 1. Im gonna stick him in the town pile for the day and look at him harder later down the line
Huntzilla- Has not posted much content, most of his stuff feels PTAP. Could be Scum with Rod or Rhand #100 feels like coaching but his couple of other posts feel town
D_V- Also hasn’t posted much, but as I reread I would start thinking something and he would say it, like his #113, literally 2 minutes ago I was thinking atog could be scummy because of his early posts then bam I read it.
Cantripmancer- Had solid questions for everyone, while ive never played with him before I find posts like his first content post to not come from a scum unless that scum is wolfing.
Null:
Shadowlancerx- I need more posts to read him, but im usually pretty good at doing it. Im hoping that he can be sorted by 3/4 thru the day. #167 I liked a lot though, town!shadow doesn’t use OOG to win, Scum!shadow would.
Scarbo- One post to let us know he would be back asap, nothing to go on.
Kittythegoddess- 1 Word this game, I need more!
red_0mega- Seems to play kinda cautiously, I cant tell if its refusing to name leads because he has none or if he overanalyses
Scummy:
Atogoholic- those few posts just seemed opportunistic. Why did you make them Atog?
Ghosting- You feel like scum trying to get wagons started, maybe this is you just hunting since it benefits you this game. Then you pre-emptavely post games, including a micro scum and neutral game. I think I just have a problem with you including a neutral game, are you hinting that you rolled it AGAIN? Like I think your wagon could be just bull*****, but I dunno, link me a non-micro scum game maybe?
Rhand- Seems like he is trying to hunt, but might just be that wine. Definitely appearing to make himself tied to Atog. Has been moving his vote around quite a bit. TSTBS or Wolfing?
My vote is going to one of you, please answer my questions so I can decide which one
That T/S screams scum.
First off, his GJ read: he puts him on top of the town pile and then waffles like crazy when explaining the read. Same for the Cantrip read, but to a smaller extent.
Kitbits is "probably" the strongest tone read? Why add that qualifier?
The Shadow read: what kind of plan are you looking for when hunting for scum Mind?
The Hunt read smells like a scumbuddy.
The Rhand read: Have you even read my posts? Those 3 are not who I've been pushing?
The AG read: same as GJ but the other way around. He puts him on the bottom of the scum pile and then says that what he's doing might come from town.
That kind of waffling in a T/S reminds me of Zomgarcwind's T/S in Overwatch.
<snip>
First, the GJ read. I think he's town, BUT, I can't ignore that whole Bur argument completely. I think that's something I'm not alone on. That seemed like a reach at best. Also, I can understand why a town!GJ might say "lets lynch from the bottom". But that is essentially saying "Vig Cythere" or "Lynch Cythere". There isn't any other real way to read that, since it's VERY clear who the bottom is. Now, he did go on to qualify it as "we want to look at the bottom *few* lurkers" and not specifically the bottom. But I think you can make an argument that scum!GJ just wants Cythere dead without casting a vote there.
Kitbits and my "probably". I think that's a "gotcha!" argument. But okay, let's say I'm scum, and use of "probably" is you catching me. Any precident for that? Is that something I do often? I haven't looked, but I'd bet my life (in this game) on being able to find similar language in my past T/S lists as town. This is a reach Rhand, and a bad one.
Shadow read, and the "plan". So here is the thing. How many times is the first wagon in a 16 man game, ~150 posts in, the lynch of the day? Half the game wasn't here, some people weren't even posting when shadow and I were talking. I think scum!shadow would know, damn well, that he wasn't going to be able to get to 9 votes off that interaction alone. Maybe you catch opportunistic scum (Cyan, Apacado) jumping in to see how far they can push it, but you'll notice that neither of them committed much to it. Where Shadow went all-in. I think that comes from town!shadow.
The Rhand read. I'll go back and show you where I got this from, but first, who do you think you've been pushing? (there is some follow up here).
I stand by my AG analysis. He came in and tossed lazy reads. I'll clarify one part that I wasn't actually happy how I worded. At the point he came in, there were TWO big reasons to vote me: 1) /barning Cantrip's argument and 2) Not liking my interactions with Shadow. Show me any reference to those in AG's post, despite him "liking the arguments against mind". Go ahead, I'll wait. Then he DOES NOT MENTION Cantrip as a townread. I don't see how you can "like the argument", and not be townreading Cantrip for making it. I don't. On the flipside though, I've played ONE game with him, and he hasn't posted much in this one. He might just be this sloppy as town. Following arguments without realizing all the consequences of doing that. Him not reading my posts, plays into that.
GJ: You’re explaining more why he could be scum now. Why oh why is he on top of your town reads?
Kitbits: Using “probably” feels like you’re not sure yourself whether or not he is your own strongest tone read. That’s weird.
Shadow: you seem a lot more sure of that read than you are of the GJ read.
Me: I’ve mainly been pushing GJ, TRSJT, Grapefruit and now you.
AG: the problem in your T/S is the “that may come from town” qualifier. If you really thought he was scum, you wouldn’t write that.
Anyways, it's a general issue with your T/S: there's too much waffling going on there.
GJ: You’re explaining more why he could be scum now. Why oh why is he on top of your town reads?
Kitbits: Using “probably” feels like you’re not sure yourself whether or not he is your own strongest tone read. That’s weird.
Shadow: you seem a lot more sure of that read than you are of the GJ read.
Me: I’ve mainly been pushing GJ, TRSJT, Grapefruit and now you.
AG: the problem in your T/S is the “that may come from town” qualifier. If you really thought he was scum, you wouldn’t write that.
Anyways, it's a general issue with your T/S: there's too much waffling going on there.
Well, I have a lot of nulls. And there are a lot of new faces.
I get the waffling argument. It's day one with no flips, and I'm sharing thoughts. I'm more cautious of a deep scum shadow beating me, then I am of GJ. Not that they both aren't skilled, but I haven't seen GJ endgame as scum... ever? Where as I see shadow in the final group, as scum, a lot recently. So yeah, I'm more confident of my GJ read than my Shadow one right now.
My other "tonereads" are Terry and Grapefruit. So Kitbit is my *strongest* townread based on tone. But Terry is *probably* (lol) the person I am using tone to read the most. I certainly could latch onto him sheeping my vote and never let go. But I think that is just terry's style, and I'm letting that weigh more heavily than the act of just voting immediately after me. Grapefruit is hard to toneread, because even though I like what I'm hearing, I have no point of reference.
"Me: I’ve mainly been pushing GJ, TRSJT, Grapefruit and now you."
Right, so I'll take some time and go through. But the reason I'm asking, is that you just put me an Hunt together as scum in your last post. Assume for a second that I'm not 100% off base with who you are pushing (and is rereading page 6 just now I see what you're talking about wrt grapefruit), that would give us roughly 6 people in as many pages. Do you think that indicates anything? (like scum looking for a potential lynch)
Rhand, this is where I got the Apacado/Cyan push stuff. You are correct that your early interaction/votes are GJ. That your focus as been on Grape and Terry recently. and now me. I will admit I characterized who you are pushing incorrectly. I had these comments in my notes (since they mirror my own) but I shouldn't have relied on that for describing your behavior (it's still relevant for my read on you).
Gah my post from yesterday is not here
Bleh, it was full of quotes.
I'm not gonna bother doing all the quotes again.
@Hunt: re:#108: where's the backpedal? I don't see it.
What do you think of Shadow's Logic vote in #110?
I don't like Apocado's entrance at all in #112.
Not liking Terry's entrance either in #119.
It's weird that Apocado only reacts to Terry's entrance and not to anything else that happened in the game.
Terry's vote in #141 is opportunistic.
Apocado's bandwagon vote on Mind in #159 is bad.
@Mind: why did you not respond to my #99?
Cantrip declaring me town makes me nervous :/
But I like his Mindreaver vote, so giving him the benefit of the doubt for now.
@Cantrip: if you're scum, don't you dare pocket me again
@GJ (re:#137): all Cythare did was a ptap. How do you get a scumread out of that?
Also, the Cyan thing was what bothers me the most about you. I always say what I think, I didn't even think of ignoring it to use it to catch you later on.
About the @Mindreaver part in your post: you explain him about offsite mechanics and then call his vote a stretch. Does that mean you think Mind is scum casting a vote like that?
Why did you not answer my #106 until Cantrip asked for it?
@Cyan: do you have any other reads than a townread on Cantrip?
I'm not a big fan of the whole daychat discussion. Either there is daychat and then the whole thing is null, or there isn't and then Gruff is town. But we'll never know unless Gruff flips. Useless discussion. And apparently the only thing Terry is talking about.
T/S:
Town
Rhand
Gruffinchops (Asks good questions)
Lean town
Cantripmancer (Great posts, but I’m a bit wary because of our last game together)
Kitbits (Good reactions to my early pressure, inquisitive posts)
Grapefruit21 (Gut)
Shadowlancerx (Mimics my thoughts a lot, but also wary because of our last game together)
Null
AtheistGod (Has he posted?)
Huntzilla (Giving him more time. My gut actually wants to place him at lean scum, but I always scumread him and am trying to step out of that)
Cythare (only a ptap post)
Bur (Can’t remember much from him)
LogicoftheVI (His posts go both ways)
Gentleman Johnny (I was hoping to get a real read out of my push, but I have no clue)
Lean scum
Cyan (Isn’t asking questions)
Apocado (Bad entrance, not inquisitive, bad vote on mindreaver)
Scum
Mindreaver (All has been said)
TheRealStinkyJoeTerry (Bad entrance and too much focus on Daychat instead of players)
unvotevote: TheRealStinkyJoeTerry
I'm also on the Mindreaver wagon in spirit and wouldn't mind an Apocado lynch either.
I must be misinterpreting your question. Are you asking me if I'm scum looking for a potential lynch?
I retract that accusation. I thought for a second I had you pushing 6 different people, but it's mostly scum leans and suspicions. So I can't back up what I thought I could there.
Good tone + you got three votes. And everyone and their grandma knows how easy you are to push as mislynch fodder.
Are you suggesting that there are scum pushing Bur as a mislynch right now? If that’s so, who on his train is scum and why?
I am not. Unless the whole wolf team has no understanding of Bur, I would venture a guess that there are three townies on him. It is still early mind you, but the way it is going, I think that Bur is likely more town. He is also psuedo volume town telling, but that will come later.
I don't get this argument.
Getting town vibes from Rhand and shadow. Cyan is a hard null.
I really like #251, moves Kitbits to town in my eyes. Getting a lot more town reads than scum reads so far. Cantrip, Kitbits, Rhand, Shadow all sound town to me.
You put that in your notes as me pushing Hunt and Cyan?
If you're town (which I doubt), then you have to work on your notemaking lol
no I meant that in the post I quoted I noted that you were scumreading apacado and cyan, and for the same reasons. When I went back to those notes for "thoughts on rhand" I just said "oh he's picking up on the right people" and then said you were pushing them which wasn't the same thing at all.
After reading through Mindreaver, I'm not convinced he's scum. This feels to be genuine frustration. I didn't like that Shadow pushed him around so easily regarding his unvote of Gruffin. Not so much anything that Shadow did wrong more so the fact that Mindreaver, was just like, "Ok I'll unvote, if you leave me alone."
Anyways, to clarify... I feel like overall he reads frustrated town to me, but there were still a couple of marks on his record. I also feel the same way he does about my vote on Gruffin. I wanted to bring attention to something I saw and the best way to do that and have it taken seriously is with a vote. Gruffin is in no danger of being lynched today and my vote on him doesn't really matter until we get closer to the deadline and I need to put my signature on a lynch candidate going into the night.
Cantrip's posting has me feeling town on him. It's a different tone than it was in our Avalon game.
I'm going to keep popping in and out checking up on different players today, but I hate post walls and prefer to do snippets at a time.
So you agreed with THIS Terry read of Cantrip? For this reason? Because CANTRIP thought that read was garbage, and eventually Terry even backed away before your post.
And it's NOT clear that you were townreading Cantrip because he made a good argument for my lynch, but because his tone was different than Avalon?
Enough, Unvote, Vote AtheistGod.
@Cyan, you're not off the hook either. But I only have one vote.
After reading through Mindreaver, I'm not convinced he's scum. This feels to be genuine frustration. I didn't like that Shadow pushed him around so easily regarding his unvote of Gruffin. Not so much anything that Shadow did wrong more so the fact that Mindreaver, was just like, "Ok I'll unvote, if you leave me alone."
Anyways, to clarify... I feel like overall he reads frustrated town to me, but there were still a couple of marks on his record. I also feel the same way he does about my vote on Gruffin. I wanted to bring attention to something I saw and the best way to do that and have it taken seriously is with a vote. Gruffin is in no danger of being lynched today and my vote on him doesn't really matter until we get closer to the deadline and I need to put my signature on a lynch candidate going into the night.
Cantrip's posting has me feeling town on him. It's a different tone than it was in our Avalon game.
I'm going to keep popping in and out checking up on different players today, but I hate post walls and prefer to do snippets at a time.
So you agreed with THIS Terry read of Cantrip? For this reason? Because CANTRIP thought that read was garbage, and eventually Terry even backed away before your post.
And it's NOT clear that you were townreading Cantrip because he made a good argument for my lynch, but because his tone was different than Avalon?
Enough, Unvote, Vote AtheistGod.
@Cyan, you're not off the hook either. But I only have one vote.
I am townreading him for both reasons.
So you have me as scum for obviously townreading Cantrip, but not stating it clearly enough for you? Could you explain why that would indicate a scum mindset?
Also, what are you trying to get at with "Because CANTRIP thought that read was garbage"? Do you believe it's a garbage reason? If so, why is it a garbage reason? I can't find anything other than exasperation as an explanation for your vote on me.
Unvote, Vote Mindreaver I keep looking over that list and the posts following, and it just seems like he's spending all of his time retconning things he's said while still trying to divert attention off of himself.
@Shadow because I am about equally convinced Mind is scum as I am on Bur. I will happily move to put him at L-2, but in the meantime I want to keep my vote on Bur.
I like SJT’s Shadow read in 265. While I would have liked it better if he had decided on a stance, the points provided explain how Shadow’s posts could come from town or scum to SJT. This tells me something very important about how SJT is viewing this game: he is weighing Shadow’s actions to decide on the read, not the other way around. Basically, he’s not cherry-picking posts to match a preconceived opinion on Shadow, which makes me feel that this read comes from a natural, town place.
As for Shadow himself, add me to the list of people who do not understand the logic behind 272. That was a post about Bur, yet it ended with a vote on Grape. There is that line… “Additionally, I rather like Rband clocking Grapefruit overall, and could see him as scum without Bur too.”
...which expands on the Grape scumread, but I’m not understanding with this last sentence why bringing up Bur/Grape pre-flip was necessary. Why use paranoia on Bur to segway into a Grape read if he is independently reading scummy from Rhand interactions?
I’d like to know if pre-flip association is commonly used on this site/by Shadow as a means to scumhunt?
Cyan’s not impressing me with that vote in 274. What I’m getting from it is a) Cyan found something that they thought was scummy, b) Cyan does not understand what Grape is saying, or c) Reaction?
Pretty much I can’t follow Cyan’s mindset because there’s no clear justification. Which concerns me because scum!Cyan can use any of these three reasons later after feeling out the safest response. 298 is worse because this tells me that Cyan isn’t reading Mind’s posts like they should even though they were happy to hop onto the wagon earlier.
@GC: The post in question is both A)forced and B)completely pointless. There is no reason for a town player to EVER make this post. But maybe the guy is just bad and not necessarily scum. We'll see.
I need to go back and read AG and Mindreaver. AG comes across looking pretty poorly in their recent interactions, but Mindreaver doesn't do much better in his interactions with Rhand.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
Second GJ what's scummy about Cythare? They have not made any impression on me this game.
Last thought hope things are all good Cantrip. I can't imagine much being more stressful than taking your kid to the hospital. Hoping for the best.
Are you voting me for liking Kit's #251 without voting you when you just said you liked Kit's #251 as well? What's the difference between you liking that post and me liking it?
Ah okay. I initially though you meant that as "scumBur pretends to scumhunt people by asking them if they are scum or not and taking the answer at face value" and the reaction test part never occurred to me.
(I hope this answer your question to me at #135, Cantrip)
@Grapefruit #89 Why should I care about RVS votes on me?
Also, in #93 you said I'm scum for being invested in game. Now I'm scum for not being invested in this game. Which way is it?
#289 How would it affect you if I told you that I've been jokey in town games in really serious in scum games? How would it affect your "jokey Bur = scum" metaread?
@GJ #101 Why do you think scum wouldn't RVS me? Especially if it's someone like Hunt for example, who has history with me.
#157 How that the RVS aren't unvoting are adding to the point that I'm toxic lynchbait? Also, your point that there aren't more votes coming to me seems bit weird, since my wagon atm consists mainly of RVS votes. Would scum really start pushing a wagon that is mainly made of RVS votes?
For now:
Unvote
I need to read some ISOs, since I don't have any tangible reads at the moment.
Basically. I don't see a reason to lay them as null. I know bur was town on my list and joe was wolf previously and they both moved and I'm not sure what to do about it.
The GJ way path to no lynching:
I feel like he is not punching out any original content, playing reactive, and scared of wagon hopping.
The GJ way path to no lynching:
Vote Count 1.08 (9 to lynch)
[3] Mindreaver - Cantripmancer, Apocado, Huntzilla
[2] Bur - Grapefruit21, AtheistGod
[2] Gruffinchops - Mindreaver, TheRealStinkyJoeTerry
[2] Grapefruit21 - Rhand, shadowlancerx
[1] Apocado - LogicoftheVI
[1] Cyan - Gruffinchops
[1] Gentleman Johnny - Kitbits
[1] AtheistGod - Gentleman Johnny
Not Voting: Cythare, Cyan, Bur
Logic has requested replacement, I'll work on finding a replacement for him.
The deadline is on Friday, March 17th.
I don't think that Mindreaver unvoted? Also I think you're reading the vote count wrong, it goes in the form of:
[VOTED] - VOTERS
I'm sorry for quiting on my first game on this website. If I play again on here I promise to be more active, I really just can't do this.
Another thing is, scum love to town read me because I look very townie in the way I present myself. The thing is though, town is uninformed and must be paranoid by nature, no one can automatically be sure of my alignment just from my tone. But scum see me looking townie and decide it's safe to back me since it looks obvious to them- because they're informed.
I'm saying this because it stands out to me the GJ in particular has me and only me in his VV/very townie list (besides himself), something he still hasn't exactly explained besides saying he likes my posts and thinks I'm pure (I'm not sure what pure means in the context of mafia). With more people slightly backing that read he can feel confident in leaving it like that without bothering to explain, too. Problem is his biggest town read is scum reading him, and just says I'm being "lolKit" instead of taking me seriously. Buddying me but invalidating my read.
@Rhand, Bur, GJ, Cyan, Huntz, Cantrip, Cythare: Any of you wanna just claim scum to make reading this easier or?
No, do you?
Almost regret replacing into a town slot, because I need to actually put effort in and solve the game rather than make ***** up as I go.
Almost.
Well, you're not off to a very good start, because this post looks scummy as *****.
@rhand^^^
Love to talk to you about your made up reasons for reading me wolfy.
After that whole talk we had about LHF and GJ going after the low postcounts, this is what you need to ask?
And why do you ignore the fact that he didn't even answer your question?
Town
Gentleman Johnny - There are some posts that are giving me pause. Particularly the last one about Ctan's 249 (called it good analysis, which I have to be honest, wasn't what I see there). But overall seems to be analyzing and willing to re-evaluate as new information comes it, with respect to his scum reads AND his townreads.
Kitbits - Probably my strongest tone read, I haven't seen much from him that hasn't screamed town to me.
Cantripmancer - Despite our interactions, I do think Cantrip is town. His points have largely been valid, without agenda. In some cases he's taken things I've said and misinterpreted. But that's a two-way street, and I can see his perspective. I don't see scum trying to push, I see town trying to investigate.
Lean Town
shadowlancerx - I'm not sure I have enough to call shadow town. Especially since his scum game is pretty strong, especially tone. But I do appreciate his thought process, and although I do get more of a "Gotcha" vibe from some of his posts (in contrast to Cantrip), I'm not seeing how it could fit in with a plan (trying to push me in hte first 3 pages would have been a REALLY bad scum plan, and I think shadow would know that).
TheRealStinkyJoeTerry - I spoke about how I'm reading Terry, having just finished a game with him. I am more null on him then town, but his gruff arguments aren't the worst, even if I do think they are somewhat emotional vs logical. But like GJ, he's re-evaluating scum and town reads.
Grapefruit21 - weakest townlean right now. It's mostly tone, and how he's interacting with people I have as null or scummy (Rhand, Bur, being hte two big ones).
Null
Gruffinchops - Has some posts I thought were very town, and others was very questionable. I just don't know at this point. Active though, so that's better than some of these others.
LogicoftheVI - Haven't heard enough to form an opinion, especially since we've never played together.
Bur - See Logic
Suspect but still null
Huntzilla - Hunt has made such little impact, that I forgot he was even on my wagon. I couldn't point to a specific scummy post, but since it's hunt on day 1, that troubles me somewhat. I'd like to see more from him, offering specifics on the next five:
Rhand - I am always suspect of Rhand. He's had really strong town-posts, but that interaction with GJ (104) was super suspect. It's not enough to condemn, but it definitely stuck in my head as "oh *****, he just nailed me". "Do I do that?" seemed forced. Behaviorally though, I think he's pushing the right people, AKA Hunt, Apacado, Cythere. While interacting favorably with GJ and Cantrip, specially over the "lynch from the bottom up" discussion. I don't think scum participates in that discussion one way or another.
Lean Scum
Apocado - Vote on me was gross and oppotunistic. The reason wasn't at all a good one (159). Hasn't read my game, but I "sound forced", in the only game we've ever played. There were *lots* of better reasons already given by others for joining the wagon, and Rhand even contrasted his vote with Hunts, and got no response.
Cyan - One liners the whole game, but still managed to join the leading wagon. That's garbage. I see piling on the easy target, and offering little in the way of original thought. This is my top scum suspect at the moment.
Cythare - similarly I haven't seen much here. I'd put this as null, but ISO him from this game. One post that says "tomorrow" and a second one that says "responding to prod". That's it. That level of disengagement either needs to request replacement, or is being purposely evacive. I'm not sure which. With activity or with replacement, could easily move to null.
AtheistGod - Wasn't blown away by the entrance (231). How can somebody be hard null in the first place? isn't that just "null". Mentioning it at all feels like filler, when you're coming into the game state. He's also stating the case on me being reasonable, but that he hasn't read my posts. Cantrip pounced on this, but I think the simplest explanation was he read Cantrip's long-post about me, and sheeped it. That may come from town, but combined with the nothing read on Cyan, and going out of his way to say Shadow and Rhand are town (with no mention of Cantrip btw) combine to show me a sloppy summary of his thought process.
Unvote, Vote Cyan
That T/S screams scum.
First off, his GJ read: he puts him on top of the town pile and then waffles like crazy when explaining the read. Same for the Cantrip read, but to a smaller extent.
Kitbits is "probably" the strongest tone read? Why add that qualifier?
The Shadow read: what kind of plan are you looking for when hunting for scum Mind?
The Hunt read smells like a scumbuddy.
The Rhand read: Have you even read my posts? Those 3 are not who I've been pushing?
The AG read: same as GJ but the other way around. He puts him on the bottom of the scum pile and then says that what he's doing might come from town.
That kind of waffling in a T/S reminds me of Zomgarcwind's T/S in Overwatch.
Okay I caught up, here is my thoughts on everyone so far. I do understand its the holidays and this day is gonna take longer than normal because of it but some people i just dont have reads on yet
Town:
Zomgarcwind
Ophidia – early claim, that comes from someone desperate to make it a few days in rather than always die D1/N1. #174 could be scummy though, making the town assume the T:S ratios etc.
Vaimes- This feels like town vaimes right now, he is trying to stop stupid wagons from starting and scum hunting for real scum not for the easy lynch and flip
Rodemy- His behavior is the same behavior he has every day 1, even his scum game plays this way day 1. Im gonna stick him in the town pile for the day and look at him harder later down the line
Huntzilla- Has not posted much content, most of his stuff feels PTAP. Could be Scum with Rod or Rhand #100 feels like coaching but his couple of other posts feel town
D_V- Also hasn’t posted much, but as I reread I would start thinking something and he would say it, like his #113, literally 2 minutes ago I was thinking atog could be scummy because of his early posts then bam I read it.
Cantripmancer- Had solid questions for everyone, while ive never played with him before I find posts like his first content post to not come from a scum unless that scum is wolfing.
Null:
Shadowlancerx- I need more posts to read him, but im usually pretty good at doing it. Im hoping that he can be sorted by 3/4 thru the day. #167 I liked a lot though, town!shadow doesn’t use OOG to win, Scum!shadow would.
Scarbo- One post to let us know he would be back asap, nothing to go on.
Kittythegoddess- 1 Word this game, I need more!
red_0mega- Seems to play kinda cautiously, I cant tell if its refusing to name leads because he has none or if he overanalyses
Scummy:
Atogoholic- those few posts just seemed opportunistic. Why did you make them Atog?
Ghosting- You feel like scum trying to get wagons started, maybe this is you just hunting since it benefits you this game. Then you pre-emptavely post games, including a micro scum and neutral game. I think I just have a problem with you including a neutral game, are you hinting that you rolled it AGAIN? Like I think your wagon could be just bull*****, but I dunno, link me a non-micro scum game maybe?
Rhand- Seems like he is trying to hunt, but might just be that wine. Definitely appearing to make himself tied to Atog. Has been moving his vote around quite a bit. TSTBS or Wolfing?
My vote is going to one of you, please answer my questions so I can decide which one
Kitbits and my "probably". I think that's a "gotcha!" argument. But okay, let's say I'm scum, and use of "probably" is you catching me. Any precident for that? Is that something I do often? I haven't looked, but I'd bet my life (in this game) on being able to find similar language in my past T/S lists as town. This is a reach Rhand, and a bad one.
Shadow read, and the "plan". So here is the thing. How many times is the first wagon in a 16 man game, ~150 posts in, the lynch of the day? Half the game wasn't here, some people weren't even posting when shadow and I were talking. I think scum!shadow would know, damn well, that he wasn't going to be able to get to 9 votes off that interaction alone. Maybe you catch opportunistic scum (Cyan, Apacado) jumping in to see how far they can push it, but you'll notice that neither of them committed much to it. Where Shadow went all-in. I think that comes from town!shadow.
The Rhand read. I'll go back and show you where I got this from, but first, who do you think you've been pushing? (there is some follow up here).
I stand by my AG analysis. He came in and tossed lazy reads. I'll clarify one part that I wasn't actually happy how I worded. At the point he came in, there were TWO big reasons to vote me: 1) /barning Cantrip's argument and 2) Not liking my interactions with Shadow. Show me any reference to those in AG's post, despite him "liking the arguments against mind". Go ahead, I'll wait. Then he DOES NOT MENTION Cantrip as a townread. I don't see how you can "like the argument", and not be townreading Cantrip for making it. I don't. On the flipside though, I've played ONE game with him, and he hasn't posted much in this one. He might just be this sloppy as town. Following arguments without realizing all the consequences of doing that. Him not reading my posts, plays into that.
Kitbits: Using “probably” feels like you’re not sure yourself whether or not he is your own strongest tone read. That’s weird.
Shadow: you seem a lot more sure of that read than you are of the GJ read.
Me: I’ve mainly been pushing GJ, TRSJT, Grapefruit and now you.
AG: the problem in your T/S is the “that may come from town” qualifier. If you really thought he was scum, you wouldn’t write that.
Anyways, it's a general issue with your T/S: there's too much waffling going on there.
I get the waffling argument. It's day one with no flips, and I'm sharing thoughts. I'm more cautious of a deep scum shadow beating me, then I am of GJ. Not that they both aren't skilled, but I haven't seen GJ endgame as scum... ever? Where as I see shadow in the final group, as scum, a lot recently. So yeah, I'm more confident of my GJ read than my Shadow one right now.
My other "tonereads" are Terry and Grapefruit. So Kitbit is my *strongest* townread based on tone. But Terry is *probably* (lol) the person I am using tone to read the most. I certainly could latch onto him sheeping my vote and never let go. But I think that is just terry's style, and I'm letting that weigh more heavily than the act of just voting immediately after me. Grapefruit is hard to toneread, because even though I like what I'm hearing, I have no point of reference.
"Me: I’ve mainly been pushing GJ, TRSJT, Grapefruit and now you."
Right, so I'll take some time and go through. But the reason I'm asking, is that you just put me an Hunt together as scum in your last post. Assume for a second that I'm not 100% off base with who you are pushing (and is rereading page 6 just now I see what you're talking about wrt grapefruit), that would give us roughly 6 people in as many pages. Do you think that indicates anything? (like scum looking for a potential lynch)
If you're town (which I doubt), then you have to work on your notemaking lol
Explain why he wasn't town in 231 and is in 277 (the two you're quoting).
Explain why you liked the case against me. What about it. No that you've read more from me (you have right?) Where do you stand?
I have him as town in both.
So you agreed with THIS Terry read of Cantrip? For this reason? Because CANTRIP thought that read was garbage, and eventually Terry even backed away before your post.
And it's NOT clear that you were townreading Cantrip because he made a good argument for my lynch, but because his tone was different than Avalon?
Enough, Unvote, Vote AtheistGod.
@Cyan, you're not off the hook either. But I only have one vote.
I am townreading him for both reasons.
So you have me as scum for obviously townreading Cantrip, but not stating it clearly enough for you? Could you explain why that would indicate a scum mindset?
Vote Count 1.09 (9 to lynch)
[4] Mindreaver - Cantripmancer, killjoy, Huntzilla, Rhand
[2] Bur - Grapefruit21, AtheistGod
[2] AtheistGod - Gentleman Johnny, Mindreaver
[1] Gruffinchops - TheRealStinkyJoeTerry
[1] Grapefruit21 - shadowlancerx
[1] killjoy - quixotic72
[1] Cyan - Gruffinchops
[1] Gentleman Johnny - Kitbits
Not Voting: Cythare, Cyan, Bur
Gruffinchops and Cythare have been prodded.
The deadline is on Friday, March 17th.
@GJ an answer on what about Cythare you don't like would be appreciated.
@Mind sorry I missed your standing weekends are bad. Life comes first.
Also your case on AG is kind of garbage. I'm on the mind wagon in spirit now.
I like SJT’s Shadow read in 265. While I would have liked it better if he had decided on a stance, the points provided explain how Shadow’s posts could come from town or scum to SJT. This tells me something very important about how SJT is viewing this game: he is weighing Shadow’s actions to decide on the read, not the other way around. Basically, he’s not cherry-picking posts to match a preconceived opinion on Shadow, which makes me feel that this read comes from a natural, town place.
As for Shadow himself, add me to the list of people who do not understand the logic behind 272. That was a post about Bur, yet it ended with a vote on Grape. There is that line… “Additionally, I rather like Rband clocking Grapefruit overall, and could see him as scum without Bur too.”
...which expands on the Grape scumread, but I’m not understanding with this last sentence why bringing up Bur/Grape pre-flip was necessary. Why use paranoia on Bur to segway into a Grape read if he is independently reading scummy from Rhand interactions?
I’d like to know if pre-flip association is commonly used on this site/by Shadow as a means to scumhunt?
Cyan’s not impressing me with that vote in 274. What I’m getting from it is a) Cyan found something that they thought was scummy, b) Cyan does not understand what Grape is saying, or c) Reaction?
Pretty much I can’t follow Cyan’s mindset because there’s no clear justification. Which concerns me because scum!Cyan can use any of these three reasons later after feeling out the safest response. 298 is worse because this tells me that Cyan isn’t reading Mind’s posts like they should even though they were happy to hop onto the wagon earlier.
Not liking AG’s question dodge in 336.
---
You've seen scum nuke-bus before though. What makes this potential scenario any different?
What’s scummy about it?
@GC: The post in question is both A)forced and B)completely pointless. There is no reason for a town player to EVER make this post. But maybe the guy is just bad and not necessarily scum. We'll see.
I need to go back and read AG and Mindreaver. AG comes across looking pretty poorly in their recent interactions, but Mindreaver doesn't do much better in his interactions with Rhand.
I'm sad Proph isn't one of those cool mods who puts post numbers in vote counts.
I'm gonna open my question up to everyone now.
First person to claim scum gets a cookie.
I'm trying a thing. Let's see if it works.
It's "You're Probably Town" flavored.
Enjoy.