Cyan #163: Complete sheep vote and free town candy for Cantrip Cyan #249: Calls AG scum, but for no real reason besides that it makes no sense, but what really doesn't make sense is how that post was a "scum Post" by AG. It seems to be a common thing for Cyan to call people scum or town without any logical explanation. Cyan #250: Town Candy for GJ, but for nothing than a vague meta read.
Hi Shadow, let me follow your logic for a second. You're now worried that Bur is scum. You are worried for similar reasons to what I've been saying for the whole game. Which has you worried that I am turbo busing Bur.
To resolve this you want to lynch me. Which reveals nothing about Burs alignment.
Seems like a bad plan to me.
Lol what? Unvote, Vote Grapefruit
This is the one that really got me. For someone saying that AG was scum for making no sense, this is completely non-sensical. Grapefruits logic made perfect sense, how did this garner a vote?
Cyan #275: When called on #249 by Gruffin he makes more nonsense. Cyan #292: When Multiple people call him out on the one I quoted. He just crumbles and invites. Just no back bone, which implies that he really isn't sincere about what he's posting. Cyan #293: Then he gives some excuse about not trying to give any reason or context... WTF is that? The whole point of this game is reason and context.
@GC: The post in question is both A)forced and B)completely pointless. There is no reason for a town player to EVER make this post. But maybe the guy is just bad and not necessarily scum. We'll see.
I need to go back and read AG and Mindreaver. AG comes across looking pretty poorly in their recent interactions, but Mindreaver doesn't do much better in his interactions with Rhand.
Wait, he just called AG pro-town in his last AG related post. So his opinion on AG has went scum-town-scum but has provided no specific reasons for the shift in reads.
After re-reading Cyan, and hearing Mindreaver's plea, I feel good about this:
I feel like scum would save this revelation until 24-48 hours before deadline OR at least until they were forced to L-2. Slight possibility that he's scum with a really good 1-shot ability, but I'm willing to chance that this early in the game. Plus, Mind has been responding a lot better than I expected him to under pressure, with calm and patience (but not appeasement) to his attackers. Maybe he's that good as scum under pressure, but again, I think it's worth the risk.
@Rhand: I asked you about Killjoy because I agreed with KJ that it seemed a stretch to compare Mind's T/S with Zomg's T/S from Overwatch. The latter was horribly waffly on almost every single person, while Mind takes strong stances on many and has reasons for several. By comparison, I feel like Killjoy's T/S list in 354 was more waffly than Mind's. There are several things I don't like about Mind's T/S list, but it feels more sincere and complete than Killjoy's does. I'm leaning on Killjoy being town based on his little cookie-scapade with Shadow (and subsequent explanation he provided), but it strikes me as odd that you are so quick to condemn Mind's T/S while being accepting of Killjoy's. What gives?
@Quixotic: Can you state your experience and gender-preferred pronouns (if any), please?
I don't have more time right now, and that's killing me, because there's lots I want to comment on, including some questions about Mind's T/S. Very glad to have a deadline extension (although I feel bad for Proph). I will try to post more soon. Sorry.
No, No neighborizer this time.
I could give you a bunch of the normal reasons, but it boils down to me being comfortable sitting back Day 1 and listening more than engaging out of the gate.
I'm happy where my votes at right now.
@ Shadow
Do you like KJ's TS list?
Do you AGREE with KJ's TS list?
No it isn't the same question.
Fair enough.
I do like his list, it shows a level of effort and critical thinking that I really appreciate from a replacement.
As far as agreeing with it...Well yeah I really do. I've got a few people moved up and down within the same areas, but his view of the gamestate is eerily similar to mine. His putting me as top town is a little eh, like I get why he's town reading me, but having not played against my scum game means he's probably not as cautious as might be deserved.
How do you feel about it? Who are your strongest reads right now, in either direction?
It's a decent list. Like you mention, there are a few here and there I would move around... most notably Cantrip. I'm not going to award him the town cookie quite yet.
My top three town are you, Rhand, and Kit. After the reread I feel pretty solid on Kit being townie.
Top 3 scum reads are Mindreaver, GJ, Bur; not as sure on the last two there. The whole scum pool I'm working with currently is those three with Logic, Cythare, Cyan, and SJT. I want to definitely lynch in that pool today and see what we get for a flip. Unless Quixotic can impress me enough to be moved out of the pile for today.
Any lingering thoughts that I had for voting Mindreaver right now completely evaporated after reading this post. This whole thing just makes my skin crawl.
Hm. This doesn't clear Mind for me, but it's enough for me to confidently say that he shouldn't be lynched today unless cc'd. If he's bluffing to save his skin, that should clear up later in the game.
Any lingering thoughts that I had for voting Mindreaver right now completely evaporated after reading this post. This whole thing just makes my skin crawl.
Are you suspecting Hunt? Why don't you like this post? Please please please go into further detail on what you mean by your posts.
@Shadow (about 392 when you answer that early question of mine)
Good answer, that's what I would have expected from town. It goes a little more into theory, but I'm feeling somewhat better about you.
@Huntzilla What's your opinion on Shadow's answer since you brought my question back up?
Meh..details are hard. And boring(actually this whole game is boring, but I can't bring myself to replace out now because so many people have already done so. I feel bad for Proph).
But just look at the post I quoted. Hunt doesn't seem to think that Cantrip is town, despite this being the general opinion, but also doesn't want to tell us why.
Mostly it's just tone. The tone of his posts just feels bad to me.
Cyan #163: Complete sheep vote and free town candy for Cantrip
Okay.
Cyan #249: Calls AG scum, but for no real reason besides that it makes no sense, but what really doesn't make sense is how that post was a "scum Post" by AG. It seems to be a common thing for Cyan to call people scum or town without any logical explanation.
Just because you can't figure it out, doesn't mean that it didn't happen. And I explained my problem with this post already, in a later post. You're welcome to go find it.
Cyan #250: Town Candy for GJ, but for nothing than a vague meta read.
Okay.
This is the one that really got me. For someone saying that AG was scum for making no sense, this is completely non-sensical. Grapefruits logic made perfect sense, how did this garner a vote?
I didn't say that GF's logic didn't make sense. It makes perfect sense, if GF is scum. Or, as I realized later, a really awful player. Which is why I voted him. I was just amused that this was how he chose to defend himself.
Cyan #292: When Multiple people call him out on the one I quoted. He just crumbles and invites. Just no back bone, which implies that he really isn't sincere about what he's posting.
If you think that my actions are going to be swayed by other people,particularly in this game, you are sorely mistaken. I changed my mind and that's it. It happens, alot.
Umm what? He just called AG scum in #249.
Cyan #316: Oh quick get the new guy (quix)!
A)Scum players can make pro-town posts. Who knew!
B)quixotic's post was just pointless bravado garbage. I've already explained this. For someone that wants to make a bunch of accusations at me, you sure do suck at actually reading the posts where I do explain these things.
Wait, he just called AG pro-town in his last AG related post. So his opinion on AG has went scum-town-scum but has provided no specific reasons for the shift in reads.
At no point did I say that I thought AG was town(at least I don't recall doing so). I said that the post that GJ quoted was pro-town. It's an important distinction to make, even on someone you think is scum. Let me tell you from experience; if you read a person's posts and think that EVERY SINGLE ONE is scum, you're not trying hard enough. Everyone makes town posts. Everyone makes scum posts. In every single game ever. You have to figure out what is going on behind them, and what that says about their alignment.
Take you, for example. Despite being clueless in general AND incorrectly voting me, your heart seems to be in the right place.
Which is yet another reason that I'm suspicious of Huntmaster. His 'pool of potential scum' is essentially just a bunch of people that are probably town, plus some people that it doesn't make sense for him to have any kind of read on, because they have posted nothing(Logic, Cythare).
It's also worth noting that Hunt has had absolutely nothing to say about AG at any point, despite A)commenting on literally everything else and B)AG's name being thrown around for the last few pages. Meaning that, if AG is scum, Hunt is highly likely to also be scum, and just didn't want to rock the boat on a wagon that might disappear on it's town. I would expect Hunt to have ventured some thought here, regardless of his alignment, unless AG is exactly scum with him.
Also, it looks like? Mindreaver claimed Doc. Good to know that I was right to change my mind about him. Can we just go ahead and vote AG now?
I think what I had with Mind's T/S was confirmation bias. His very first sentence was a waffle on GJ, which was supposed to be his top town read, and I read everything with colored glasses from there on. My brain went "gotcha" when I read that line about GJ. It reminded me immediately of Zomg.
And then his read on me was full of falsehoods.
Anyways, not lynching him with that claim, so unvote
I'm pretty lost atm. I'm off to bed now. I'll take a fresh look at the game tomorrow.
@Huntzilla I have been wrong on Bur before, but I'm pretty sure between my last game with him and reading Disinheritance I've "cracked" his code and understand how Bur works. And I'm pretty sure this is scum Bur.
@Cyan why did a Huntzilla post take away your doubts about Mindreaver?
Also feeling pretty good about JoeTerry after 402.
@Mindreaver: I'm feeling good about you after your claim (and a quick VCA), but I'm hoping your idea of "role that easily proves my alignment" is not 1-shot fruit vendor or something equally. I'm lazy and I'd prefer to not have to worry about your alignment anymore.
Also, I read SJT's case in #402 and I think I like it. His point about Cyan's view on AG is good and there are some things that bother me slightly (in regards to Cyan)...
@Cyan: You said in #363 that you don't feel good about Mindreaver wagon. Why? What were your thoughs on the people on Mindreaver wagon back then? (Cantrip, Killjoy, Hunt, Rhand and shadowlancer)
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Quote from Prophylaxis »
Also modgaming Bur setups is kind of treading down a dark path
@Huntzilla I have been wrong on Bur before, but I'm pretty sure between my last game with him and reading Disinheritance I've "cracked" his code and understand how Bur works. And I'm pretty sure this is scum Bur.
You know, if you think I'm scum and want me lynched, you should try convincing other people that I'm scum.
Building a case is a good start.
(Also, I'm really waiting to see the look in your face when you realise you are wrong again after I flip town)
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Quote from Prophylaxis »
Also modgaming Bur setups is kind of treading down a dark path
@Huntzilla I have been wrong on Bur before, but I'm pretty sure between my last game with him and reading Disinheritance I've "cracked" his code and understand how Bur works. And I'm pretty sure this is scum Bur.
You know, if you think I'm scum and want me lynched, you should try convincing other people that I'm scum.
Building a case is a good start.
(Also, I'm really waiting to see the look in your face when you realise you are wrong again after I flip town)
Hey Bur, what is your read on Grapefruit right now?
@Huntzilla I have been wrong on Bur before, but I'm pretty sure between my last game with him and reading Disinheritance I've "cracked" his code and understand how Bur works. And I'm pretty sure this is scum Bur.
You know, if you think I'm scum and want me lynched, you should try convincing other people that I'm scum.
Building a case is a good start.
(Also, I'm really waiting to see the look in your face when you realise you are wrong again after I flip town)
Hey Bur, what is your read on Grapefruit right now?
I thought he would've been a great place to take a closer look had Mindreaver flipped scum, but now I have no idea... ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
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Quote from Prophylaxis »
Also modgaming Bur setups is kind of treading down a dark path
@Shadow because I am about equally convinced Mind is scum as I am on Bur. I will happily move to put him at L-2, but in the meantime I want to keep my vote on Bur.
I know I shouldn't but I'm going to anyway, what's convinced you I'm a really awful player? Also why is Hunt having an opinion away from consensus on Cantrip a scum tell?
Thanks,
Grape
Hi Bur,
I've made a case elsewhere and got tired of restated it. You've clearly read my ISO so you'd have seen it.
So Bur, if you've been considering him as a possible scum buddy to mind, and are still completely unsure about his alignment, why are you so sure he'll be surprised by your town flip? Vote Bur
So Bur, if you've been considering him as a possible scum buddy to mind, and are still completely unsure about his alignment, why are you so sure he'll be surprised by your town flip? Vote Bur
I think I like you for this one, but what you think you are seeing is not what you are exactly seeing.
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Quote from Prophylaxis »
Also modgaming Bur setups is kind of treading down a dark path
I know I shouldn't but I'm going to anyway, what's convinced you I'm a really awful player? Also why is Hunt having an opinion away from consensus on Cantrip a scum tell?
Thanks,
Grape
It had more to do with how I initially read that post, which I've come to realize wasn't what you meant. I wouldn't sweat it.
And it's not that Hunt has a contrary opinion on Cantrip. It's A)the way he expressed it and B)the fact that he didn't provide any evidence for his refusal to acknowledge Cantrip as town. He was just being different apparently for the sake of being different, which is not town behavior.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
You said you were way of the mind wagon because you were scum reading two people on it. Why does it concern you that scum may be on the wagon, since bussing is a thing.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
There weren't enough people, for a game this size, for 2 scum to be bussing this early, IMO. Plus, how often does bussing really even happen anymore on this site? In Disinheritance there was very minimal bussing, IIRC.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
And it's not that Hunt has a contrary opinion on Cantrip. It's A)the way he expressed it and B)the fact that he didn't provide any evidence for his refusal to acknowledge Cantrip as town. He was just being different apparently for the sake of being different, which is not town behavior.
But it's not really scum behaviour either. It could be gaslighting but I think scum hunt would be trying a bit harder with it than this.
Anyway Hunt has been one of my tonally top town reads for ages. I love Huntz quad post at the bottom of page 1 and his push on shadow here and here before hopping onto the Mind train.
I get why you don't like that post, but I am looking at from a town!Hunt perspective and can see that too.
At the time that I made that post, I believe that Mindreaver had 5 votes on him. I don't really expect 2 of those votes to be scum bussing, especially with this playerbase.
I've discussed why I think Hunt is scum, but I'm more interested in pursuing an AG wagon right now. I don't have strong scum feelings about shadow, he's just rubbed me the wrong way some.
There weren't enough people, for a game this size, for 2 scum to be bussing this early, IMO. Plus, how often does bussing really even happen anymore on this site? In Disinheritance there was very minimal bussing, IIRC.
Page 5 of bare bones had both of my scum buddies bussing me. Day one of Overwatch ended with me and Cantrip both bussing zomg. Those and Disinheritance are the last few large games on this site, so I'd say it's still a thing. Granted, assuming mind isn't scum, it's a moot point.
EBWOP: Well it looks like he answered. I really should go through all the new posts before I start replying as I read, but his answer really didn't make me feel any better about him.
That's not an excuse. It was the next post. No reason not to have seen it.
And further, that actually makes this more likely just a bloodthirsty vote, since you stopping to think that, hey, maybe that scumslip was really obvious and may not be what it seems.
I really like 402. I mean, its Cyan being himself there, but it shows a lot more critial thinking than, say, your bloodthirsty vote from earlier.
At the time that I made that post, I believe that Mindreaver had 5 votes on him. I don't really expect 2 of those votes to be scum bussing, especially with this playerbase.
I've discussed why I think Hunt is scum, but I'm more interested in pursuing an AG wagon right now. I don't have strong scum feelings about shadow, he's just rubbed me the wrong way some.
It's still a weird reason to avoid the top wagon, is my point.
Note: I wanna say this makes it more likely that if Cyan is scum, Mind is too, and vice versa. If they're buddies, finding a reason to avoid the wagon is something Cyan might do.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
@Cyan I'm going to ISO Hunt as I'd prefer not to lynch someone below the modline today and AG is pretty much there. Is there any particular reason you would rather hunt AG than Huntzilla?
At no point did I say that I thought AG was town(at least I don't recall doing so). I said that the post that GJ quoted was pro-town. It's an important distinction to make, even on someone you think is scum. Let me tell you from experience; if you read a person's posts and think that EVERY SINGLE ONE is scum, you're not trying hard enough. Everyone makes town posts. Everyone makes scum posts. In every single game ever. You have to figure out what is going on behind them, and what that says about their alignment.
You said AG's post was not bad and that it was pro-town. If you think someone is scum, nothing they do is pro-town, it's deception, which is anti-town.
Take you, for example. Despite being clueless in general AND incorrectly voting me, your heart seems to be in the right place.
I'm seeing a pattern here, you result to insults when someone questions your motivations. Your posts up until this point have been literal garbage. You can not argue with that. If any one else had posted like you, I would sure as hell hope a player of your exceptional caliber would have called them out on it.
You said AG's post was not bad and that it was pro-town. If you think someone is scum, nothing they do is pro-town, it's deception, which is anti-town.
This is silly. By this logic, every person that you think is scum just..is. But in reality, every person makes scummy posts and every person makes townie posts. In every game. In a given game of mafia, almost everyone will come under suspicion at one point or another. That doesn't actually make them all scum. Analysis is important. Unless you're reviewing a dead scum's posts, you never KNOW a person is scum. You just suspect it.
I'm seeing a pattern here, you result to insults when someone questions your motivations. Your posts up until this point have been literal garbage. You can not argue with that. If any one else had posted like you, I would sure as hell hope a player of your exceptional caliber would have called them out on it.
A pattern of..me talking to you. I wasn't aware that one incident created a pattern. Nice try though.
Quote from AG »
Still working things out. Nothing that concrete yet.
This seems like a stalling tactic more than anything else.
@Cyan still working on that Huntz ISO (I had a lot typed and then lost it when work got in the way). While I'm going back through it can you give me a quick opinion on Shadow.
What would it be like if every nation--from the isles in the South to the Terris hills in the North--were united under a single government? What wonders could be achieved, what progress could be made, if mankind were to permanently set aside its squabblings and join together?
It is too much, I suppose, to even hope for. A single, unified empire of man? It could never happen.
Extremely busy yet for 3-7 more days, but my schedule clears up sharply once I finish this client. Might be able to catch up in piecemeal until then, but just letting people know what's up and that I'm alive/playing.
Just knowing you (Cyan) were vaguely bugged by him (shadow) is good enough for me to drop my Huntzilla post then.
So I had Huntz towards the top of my town pile for a while, I'd given him a lot of town credit for the tone behind his quad post late on page one that starts here.
In 108 he awards logic(now Quitotix) scum points, but doesn't vote. His very next post is defending himself to Shadow for not following that with a vote. Shadow who was elsewhere accused of coaching (towards Bur early page 3 I think) the in thread I might add.
But what happens next after talking about not wanting his first vote to be weak we have this:
The bolded basically reads as "Don't look at me, look at anyone else!"
I think it means, "why are you cherry-picking my vote patterns?" and I was implying "do you sense an easy mislynch target?"
And now you're omgusing. Why don't you answer my original question, are you happy with your vote still being on Gruffin? I waited several posts to see if you'd unvote, and when you didn't, I asked. And all I'm getting from you is snark and shade.
No, I'm not happy with my vote being there. I don't want her lynched. She's in no danger of that. When I get to re-reading, sometime today, I'll move it where I think it belongs.
Part of me just doesn't want to unvote now because it's been such a big thing. But if it makes you happy Shadow: Unvote.
I'm not OMGUSing, per se. But take a look from my perspective:
1) I know my alignment.
2) I have 4 Votes. Leading wagon, yay!
3) Scum would be looking for reasons to push me.
4) You push me for leaving my vote on somebody in no danger of anything. Even after I've conceded that I overreacted.
5) There are other votes that are equally guilty, those people just aren't gathering votes themselves.
What would you think? Probably that some people on your wagon are scum. I'm looking at you and Cyan. Possibly Apacado, but GJ seems to be digging into that. I'm content to see how that plays out.
Self conscious.
Upset over a little pressure.
Pointing finger around the room saying looookkkk.
Unvote
Vote Mindreaver
This is pretty close to a blatant sheep and is a bit jarring coming after his last post. The Mindreaver wagon was hot and a lot of people were jumping on it, but it's still a pretty drastic leap from his previous post.
His next two posts are answering a direct question to Rhand about the push on Logic and what he think's of Shadow's vote. The one that answers says it was a good place to pressure, but waffles saying it could be an honest mistake and with the Razor comment implies he thinks that is more likely. Which would line up with Hunt not wanting to vote earlier. But we'll come back to that later.
In 268 he sheeps the Kit post that has been widely town read and is the basis for Kit!Slot being almost universally town read this game. Hedges that he doesn't know where his GJ misgivings come from, but doesn't ever follow up on it in the thread.
269 is a bit of an out of nowhere attack on SJT and defence of AG. I had a town read on AG around that time, but this is a very naked defense that doesn't touch the rest of the context in JoeTerry's big post. Is a strange one. My tinfoil Hunt/Shadow sense is tingling because I can see this as an attack to discredit all of SJT's post which was on the critical side on Shadow without directly confronting it. But that is probably paranoid confirmation bias for now.
318 and jumping ahead to 378 are two pretty direct challenges to being scum read. The tone is pretty different between the two, but it's a pattern of bristling at people scum reading him.
377 is yet another direct interaction with Shadow. He asks a very specifically worded question of questionable utility. It's another forced interaction with Shadow that lends itself pretty easily to tinfoiling some more in thread coaching. Am I confident that's what it is? Not really, but I will not be surprised if they flip scum together. What I don't particularly like about this post is it's one of those that seems like it was made to try and look as "game solvey" as possibly without really trying to figure the game out.
Next is his big catch up post which read alright to me the first time but one reread it pinged me crazily. It's a catch up post where he's reacting to things as they're happening as evidenced by his progression on Bur throughout the course of 382.
So first applauds GJ for reading Kit right early.
Then asks a follow up question to Shadow (More chatter!).
Starts his Bur read at wait and see.
Then quotes a big Mindreaver post and speculates about who his scum buddies could be.
Asks a pertinent question about my ability to read Bur. For the record I'm 0 for 2 on reading Bur but I'm pretty sure I've solved him now.
Then quotes a big Rhand post and argues about Cantrip. He uses a point I made earlier that Rhand was assigning reads based on behaviors that multiple players were showing and says Rhand should have given Cantrip some scum cred based on what he said.
Finishes his catchup by saying maybe my Bur read was correct.
So this post has me terrified that Huntzilla is trying to pocket me. He quotes most of my Bur progression and sheeps it at the end and echo's some of my reasoning to a different aspect of an old Rhand post.
No, No neighborizer this time.
I could give you a bunch of the normal reasons, but it boils down to me being comfortable sitting back Day 1 and listening more than engaging out of the gate.
I'm happy where my votes at right now.
@ Shadow
Do you like KJ's TS list?
Do you AGREE with KJ's TS list?
No it isn't the same question.
Fair enough.
I do like his list, it shows a level of effort and critical thinking that I really appreciate from a replacement.
As far as agreeing with it...Well yeah I really do. I've got a few people moved up and down within the same areas, but his view of the gamestate is eerily similar to mine. His putting me as top town is a little eh, like I get why he's town reading me, but having not played against my scum game means he's probably not as cautious as might be deserved.
How do you feel about it? Who are your strongest reads right now, in either direction?
It's a decent list. Like you mention, there are a few here and there I would move around... most notably Cantrip. I'm not going to award him the town cookie quite yet.
My top three town are you, Rhand, and Kit. After the reread I feel pretty solid on Kit being townie.
Top 3 scum reads are Mindreaver, GJ, Bur; not as sure on the last two there. The whole scum pool I'm working with currently is those three with Logic, Cythare, Cyan, and SJT. I want to definitely lynch in that pool today and see what we get for a flip. Unless Quixotic can impress me enough to be moved out of the pile for today.
And his T/S list is a bit alarming here. For town: Shadow as a top town read doesn't make a lot of sense to me. Given what Hunt has said about Kit at various places it's hard to see what shadow has done that has earned him a slot above Kit or even in the top 3.
Then Rhand as a number two is a bit of a shock after his last catch up post spent a bit of effort poking at Rhand for what he saw as a bad town read.
The top 3 scum are also a bit surprising. His vote hasn't moved from Mind all game so that makes sense, but GJ at number two is a surprise. Huntz doesn't interact with him much at all except in RVS and to call him out when GJ scum read him. Bur at 3 reads to me as continuing the pocket attempt. The next 3 is just as bad having a total non entity (Cyth) (while leaving AG out entirely!) and the other person he called out for scum reading him isn't the most compelling lynch pool. I've also found SJT incredibly towny and find his presence in the lynch pool a head scratcher. Getting back to my point from earlier he implies that he thinks the logic slip from earlier was more likely a mistake (invoking Hanlon's razor) but still has him pretty high in his lynch pool. This isn't a smoking gun or anything, but it seems to be attempt to play both sides there. He also made a lot of noise about Cantrip not deserving town reads to leave him out of the pool.
So TLDR: Huntz is inconsistent throughout and has some scummy moments. His reads lists don't track with my view of the game at all and don't seem to track with his in some cases. I think there is a semi obvious case that he was attempting to pocket me. And I think his interactions with Shadow and AG make them a plausible scum team. His underwhelming defence of AG to Terry is one of the harder to justify as town posts in the entire game. If one were to flip scum I would feel very strongly about pushing the other. Shadow less so, but he would be the next place I'd start looking.
And of his top 7 picks for scum, two directly scum read him directly, one he attacked over a scum read, and one his vote hasn't budged from all game.
You said AG's post was not bad and that it was pro-town. If you think someone is scum, nothing they do is pro-town, it's deception, which is anti-town.
This is silly. By this logic, every person that you think is scum just..is. But in reality, every person makes scummy posts and every person makes townie posts. In every game. In a given game of mafia, almost everyone will come under suspicion at one point or another. That doesn't actually make them all scum. Analysis is important. Unless you're reviewing a dead scum's posts, you never KNOW a person is scum. You just suspect it.
I'm seeing a pattern here, you result to insults when someone questions your motivations. Your posts up until this point have been literal garbage. You can not argue with that. If any one else had posted like you, I would sure as hell hope a player of your exceptional caliber would have called them out on it.
A pattern of..me talking to you. I wasn't aware that one incident created a pattern. Nice try though.
You did the same to grapefruit... pattern! Bam! Now stop being an a-hole. Your recent posts have shown much improvement. I'm not saying you're town, just that you are actually providing some content.
Cyan #249: Calls AG scum, but for no real reason besides that it makes no sense, but what really doesn't make sense is how that post was a "scum Post" by AG. It seems to be a common thing for Cyan to call people scum or town without any logical explanation.
Cyan #250: Town Candy for GJ, but for nothing than a vague meta read.
This is the one that really got me. For someone saying that AG was scum for making no sense, this is completely non-sensical. Grapefruits logic made perfect sense, how did this garner a vote?
Cyan #275: When called on #249 by Gruffin he makes more nonsense.
Cyan #292: When Multiple people call him out on the one I quoted. He just crumbles and invites. Just no back bone, which implies that he really isn't sincere about what he's posting.
Cyan #293: Then he gives some excuse about not trying to give any reason or context... WTF is that? The whole point of this game is reason and context.
Umm what? He just called AG scum in #249.
Cyan #316: Oh quick get the new guy (quix)!
Wait, he just called AG pro-town in his last AG related post. So his opinion on AG has went scum-town-scum but has provided no specific reasons for the shift in reads.
After re-reading Cyan, and hearing Mindreaver's plea, I feel good about this:
Vote: Cyan
I feel like scum would save this revelation until 24-48 hours before deadline OR at least until they were forced to L-2. Slight possibility that he's scum with a really good 1-shot ability, but I'm willing to chance that this early in the game. Plus, Mind has been responding a lot better than I expected him to under pressure, with calm and patience (but not appeasement) to his attackers. Maybe he's that good as scum under pressure, but again, I think it's worth the risk.
@Rhand: I asked you about Killjoy because I agreed with KJ that it seemed a stretch to compare Mind's T/S with Zomg's T/S from Overwatch. The latter was horribly waffly on almost every single person, while Mind takes strong stances on many and has reasons for several. By comparison, I feel like Killjoy's T/S list in 354 was more waffly than Mind's. There are several things I don't like about Mind's T/S list, but it feels more sincere and complete than Killjoy's does. I'm leaning on Killjoy being town based on his little cookie-scapade with Shadow (and subsequent explanation he provided), but it strikes me as odd that you are so quick to condemn Mind's T/S while being accepting of Killjoy's. What gives?
@Quixotic: Can you state your experience and gender-preferred pronouns (if any), please?
I don't have more time right now, and that's killing me, because there's lots I want to comment on, including some questions about Mind's T/S. Very glad to have a deadline extension (although I feel bad for Proph). I will try to post more soon. Sorry.
Any lingering thoughts that I had for voting Mindreaver right now completely evaporated after reading this post. This whole thing just makes my skin crawl.
Good answer, that's what I would have expected from town. It goes a little more into theory, but I'm feeling somewhat better about you.
@Huntzilla What's your opinion on Shadow's answer since you brought my question back up?
But just look at the post I quoted. Hunt doesn't seem to think that Cantrip is town, despite this being the general opinion, but also doesn't want to tell us why.
Mostly it's just tone. The tone of his posts just feels bad to me.
Okay.
Just because you can't figure it out, doesn't mean that it didn't happen. And I explained my problem with this post already, in a later post. You're welcome to go find it.
Okay.
I didn't say that GF's logic didn't make sense. It makes perfect sense, if GF is scum. Or, as I realized later, a really awful player. Which is why I voted him. I was just amused that this was how he chose to defend himself.
If you think that my actions are going to be swayed by other people,particularly in this game, you are sorely mistaken. I changed my mind and that's it. It happens, alot.
A)Scum players can make pro-town posts. Who knew!
B)quixotic's post was just pointless bravado garbage. I've already explained this. For someone that wants to make a bunch of accusations at me, you sure do suck at actually reading the posts where I do explain these things.
At no point did I say that I thought AG was town(at least I don't recall doing so). I said that the post that GJ quoted was pro-town. It's an important distinction to make, even on someone you think is scum. Let me tell you from experience; if you read a person's posts and think that EVERY SINGLE ONE is scum, you're not trying hard enough. Everyone makes town posts. Everyone makes scum posts. In every single game ever. You have to figure out what is going on behind them, and what that says about their alignment.
Take you, for example. Despite being clueless in general AND incorrectly voting me, your heart seems to be in the right place.
Which is yet another reason that I'm suspicious of Huntmaster. His 'pool of potential scum' is essentially just a bunch of people that are probably town, plus some people that it doesn't make sense for him to have any kind of read on, because they have posted nothing(Logic, Cythare).
It's also worth noting that Hunt has had absolutely nothing to say about AG at any point, despite A)commenting on literally everything else and B)AG's name being thrown around for the last few pages. Meaning that, if AG is scum, Hunt is highly likely to also be scum, and just didn't want to rock the boat on a wagon that might disappear on it's town. I would expect Hunt to have ventured some thought here, regardless of his alignment, unless AG is exactly scum with him.
Also, it looks like? Mindreaver claimed Doc. Good to know that I was right to change my mind about him. Can we just go ahead and vote AG now?
Vote AG
And then his read on me was full of falsehoods.
Anyways, not lynching him with that claim, so
unvote
I'm pretty lost atm. I'm off to bed now. I'll take a fresh look at the game tomorrow.
@Cyan why did a Huntzilla post take away your doubts about Mindreaver?
Also feeling pretty good about JoeTerry after 402.
Also, I read SJT's case in #402 and I think I like it. His point about Cyan's view on AG is good and there are some things that bother me slightly (in regards to Cyan)...
@Cyan: You said in #363 that you don't feel good about Mindreaver wagon. Why? What were your thoughs on the people on Mindreaver wagon back then? (Cantrip, Killjoy, Hunt, Rhand and shadowlancer)
You know, if you think I'm scum and want me lynched, you should try convincing other people that I'm scum.
Building a case is a good start.
(Also, I'm really waiting to see the look in your face when you realise you are wrong again after I flip town)
I thought he would've been a great place to take a closer look had Mindreaver flipped scum, but now I have no idea... ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Grape has had barely any interactions with Mind even though he has a good amount of posts and has only made few references to him, like:
In both posts, he says he supports Mind wagon, but doesn't vote for him at all. So, I had him as a possible scum buddy for Mindreaver.
I know I shouldn't but I'm going to anyway, what's convinced you I'm a really awful player? Also why is Hunt having an opinion away from consensus on Cantrip a scum tell?
Thanks,
Grape
Hi Bur,
I've made a case elsewhere and got tired of restated it. You've clearly read my ISO so you'd have seen it.
Thanks,
Grape
Vote Bur
I think I like you for this one, but what you think you are seeing is not what you are exactly seeing.
It had more to do with how I initially read that post, which I've come to realize wasn't what you meant. I wouldn't sweat it.
And it's not that Hunt has a contrary opinion on Cantrip. It's A)the way he expressed it and B)the fact that he didn't provide any evidence for his refusal to acknowledge Cantrip as town. He was just being different apparently for the sake of being different, which is not town behavior.
Cyan, answer my question please.
Have you discussed why hunt and shadow are scum yet?
Have you discussed why hunt and shadow are scum yet?
But it's not really scum behaviour either. It could be gaslighting but I think scum hunt would be trying a bit harder with it than this.
Anyway Hunt has been one of my tonally top town reads for ages. I love Huntz quad post at the bottom of page 1 and his push on shadow here and here before hopping onto the Mind train.
I get why you don't like that post, but I am looking at from a town!Hunt perspective and can see that too.
I've discussed why I think Hunt is scum, but I'm more interested in pursuing an AG wagon right now. I don't have strong scum feelings about shadow, he's just rubbed me the wrong way some.
And further, that actually makes this more likely just a bloodthirsty vote, since you stopping to think that, hey, maybe that scumslip was really obvious and may not be what it seems.
I really like 402. I mean, its Cyan being himself there, but it shows a lot more critial thinking than, say, your bloodthirsty vote from earlier.
It's still a weird reason to avoid the top wagon, is my point.
Note: I wanna say this makes it more likely that if Cyan is scum, Mind is too, and vice versa. If they're buddies, finding a reason to avoid the wagon is something Cyan might do.
I think I'm with GJ: Day 1 sucks.
I will probably finish tomorrow.
I'm seeing a pattern here, you result to insults when someone questions your motivations. Your posts up until this point have been literal garbage. You can not argue with that. If any one else had posted like you, I would sure as hell hope a player of your exceptional caliber would have called them out on it.
Still working things out. Nothing that concrete yet.
This is silly. By this logic, every person that you think is scum just..is. But in reality, every person makes scummy posts and every person makes townie posts. In every game. In a given game of mafia, almost everyone will come under suspicion at one point or another. That doesn't actually make them all scum. Analysis is important. Unless you're reviewing a dead scum's posts, you never KNOW a person is scum. You just suspect it.
A pattern of..me talking to you. I wasn't aware that one incident created a pattern. Nice try though.
This seems like a stalling tactic more than anything else.
It is too much, I suppose, to even hope for. A single, unified empire of man? It could never happen.
Vote Count 1.12 (9 to lynch)
[3] AtheistGod - Gentleman Johnny, Mindreaver, Cyan
[2] Mindreaver - Huntzilla, quixotic72
[2] Bur - Grapefruit21, AtheistGod
[2] Cyan - Gruffinchops, TheRealStinkyJoeTerry
[1] Gentleman Johnny - Kitbits
[1] Bur - shadowlancerx
Not Voting: Cythare, Bur, killjoy, Cantripmancer, Rhand
Looking for replacements for Cythare and Kitbits. Deadline has been suspended until I find replacements for both.
V/LA..ish?
So I had Huntz towards the top of my town pile for a while, I'd given him a lot of town credit for the tone behind his quad post late on page one that starts here.
In 108 he awards logic(now Quitotix) scum points, but doesn't vote. His very next post is defending himself to Shadow for not following that with a vote. Shadow who was elsewhere accused of coaching (towards Bur early page 3 I think) the in thread I might add.
But what happens next after talking about not wanting his first vote to be weak we have this:
This is pretty close to a blatant sheep and is a bit jarring coming after his last post. The Mindreaver wagon was hot and a lot of people were jumping on it, but it's still a pretty drastic leap from his previous post.
His next two posts are answering a direct question to Rhand about the push on Logic and what he think's of Shadow's vote. The one that answers says it was a good place to pressure, but waffles saying it could be an honest mistake and with the Razor comment implies he thinks that is more likely. Which would line up with Hunt not wanting to vote earlier. But we'll come back to that later.
In 268 he sheeps the Kit post that has been widely town read and is the basis for Kit!Slot being almost universally town read this game. Hedges that he doesn't know where his GJ misgivings come from, but doesn't ever follow up on it in the thread.
269 is a bit of an out of nowhere attack on SJT and defence of AG. I had a town read on AG around that time, but this is a very naked defense that doesn't touch the rest of the context in JoeTerry's big post. Is a strange one. My tinfoil Hunt/Shadow sense is tingling because I can see this as an attack to discredit all of SJT's post which was on the critical side on Shadow without directly confronting it. But that is probably paranoid confirmation bias for now.
318 and jumping ahead to 378 are two pretty direct challenges to being scum read. The tone is pretty different between the two, but it's a pattern of bristling at people scum reading him.
377 is yet another direct interaction with Shadow. He asks a very specifically worded question of questionable utility. It's another forced interaction with Shadow that lends itself pretty easily to tinfoiling some more in thread coaching. Am I confident that's what it is? Not really, but I will not be surprised if they flip scum together. What I don't particularly like about this post is it's one of those that seems like it was made to try and look as "game solvey" as possibly without really trying to figure the game out.
Next is his big catch up post which read alright to me the first time but one reread it pinged me crazily. It's a catch up post where he's reacting to things as they're happening as evidenced by his progression on Bur throughout the course of 382.
So first applauds GJ for reading Kit right early.
Then asks a follow up question to Shadow (More chatter!).
Starts his Bur read at wait and see.
Then quotes a big Mindreaver post and speculates about who his scum buddies could be.
Asks a pertinent question about my ability to read Bur. For the record I'm 0 for 2 on reading Bur but I'm pretty sure I've solved him now.
Then quotes a big Rhand post and argues about Cantrip. He uses a point I made earlier that Rhand was assigning reads based on behaviors that multiple players were showing and says Rhand should have given Cantrip some scum cred based on what he said.
Finishes his catchup by saying maybe my Bur read was correct.
So this post has me terrified that Huntzilla is trying to pocket me. He quotes most of my Bur progression and sheeps it at the end and echo's some of my reasoning to a different aspect of an old Rhand post.
So here is his last post:
Also, please keep the votes coming my way. I'm so clearly scum that I'll just rollover and die with any more pressure.