I'm honestly having trouble finding motivation to keep up with this game because of the long phase format. Whenever I do come back it feels like the game is happening around me rather than me being in the game, and I'm finding it hard to absorb information of what's going on in the thread. And I keep pushing the 48 hour rule... I'm sorry, but I might end up replacing out soon, cause I can't see myself doing this for weeks and weeks, and I'm not gonna hope for an early mercy kill.
That said I finally caught up again and I'm going to continue to do what I can until I decide if I do want to rep out. So here are my general thoughts, since I have no pings and I'm too tired go about picking out and responding to specific things and quoting.
I can't really follow the Mindreaver train. I see what the accusation is but it's hard for me to see why he got so many votes.
I think Rhand and Cantrip are town from their contributions to analyzing. I am fairly sure Gruffin is town from the town slip earlier.
I still really dislike GJ's posts... something about his interactions with Cantrip makes me think it's town (Cantrip) pushing scum (GJ) and scum just brushing it off without really offering real counterpoints, just trying to invalidate Cantrip's points. I think he is way too focused on getting people to town read him, too, and he doesn't even have a train. He's also pointing at his OWN meta going "see, I would be town according to my meta" which.. you can absolutely do as scum. The fact that someone knows their meta means they can use it to their advantage to, so it doesn't look good at all. And then there's that contradiction about "usually distant as scum, therefore I would be vigilant as scum." Well, whatever the case, he seems hyper vigilant about his own alignment this time. Not to mention still not impressed with the early town reads and his justification for them. I know everyone seems to agree I'm town (which is creepy by the way, I have like 8 posts), but since he was the first to bring it up it still stands out.
I also slightly think he might have seen the mindreaver train happening and took a chance to white knight a little in the event mind gets lynched and flips town so he gets town cred. It wasn't much and I can't remember where in the thread it is but GJ seemed against the mind lynch, which stuck out to me, but correct me if I'm wrong because I'm tired, forgetful, and am just barely comprehending everything.
That said I wanna make it clear I'm still voting GJ and it's not just my RVS that I felt like leaving there.
I really don't have a clue about the other trains or popular scum reads I didn't mention (JoeTerry and Cyan i think? or was it Cythare) they didn't leave an impression on me
I'm also sooort of thinking Shadow and Grape are town, if only cause they comment on gamestate often and i remember them.
But since I'm here: SJT, do you feel as if Huntzilla was voting No lynch intentionally or as a joke? About your other 2 posts:
1. Why did you unvote onto Kitbits so quickly? Do you feel there is something off about them?
2. Are you suspicious of Gruffin?
1. All part of me catching up and doing RVS stuff
2. Actually I am. To me, I find that someone caring about a player's read on themselves (Gruffin in this case) at this stage is a bit suspicious. I was kind of hoping he'd answer (#121) before I explained it, but it was really more of a statement than a question, so whatever.
I was also slightly pinged by Gruffin asking others to give their reads on them so Terry latching onto that rang true for me. And jumping at the "slip" and running with it showed a town confirmation bias mindset more than anything else to me. Now I disagree with Terry on Gruff and think she is pretty towny, but her record isn't spotless. And I'm reasonably comfortable that Terry is town as well at this point.
I completely concede the hunt point. It's close to a barn, but better. As for GJ I thought he had voted and not just expressed an agreement with the case.
As for the low hanging fruit your channelling of Boromir is correct, but low hanging fruit doesn't pick itself and you were definitely positioning to pluck some of the easier ones.
You're conceding almost all of it now, but you did a great job misrepresenting me there.
I don't like the wording on your last sentence. If what I'm doing is "definitely positioning to pluck some of the easier ones", then your vote should be on me. Town doesn't pluck low hanging fruit, and your use of the word "definitely" should mean I am sure scum to you.
Oooookay, but you can question and even pressure other players while still committing your vote to your highest scumspect. Is RSTJ scummier to you than Mind?
About par. But I like to put my vote where my tongue is. It gives more pressure.
Anyways, I think I found scum in Grapefruit now, and that read is stronger.
@Cantrip I liked his take on GJ, Kit, and Mind. There are some parts of it that make it's clear he's not 100% caught up, but it's a good entrance.
For example I don't think scum AG comes in with the half suspicion onto Mind. I'd expect either to join to wagon or ignore it. Mentioning it like that in passing seems much more likely to come from town. I think Kit is town and so does just about everyone else, given that I don't think scum AG enters the thread with a naked scorching hot take that Kit is scum.
I will give you that the random Cyan mention is strange though.
Rhand's assertation that I'm not talking about anything but the mechanics in #192 and #194 is pretty far off, considering I feel like I've already spent too much time focussing on my concern with Gruffin's self-consciousness. I haven't been fully invested in this game because it was go-time in my other one. That one finished and I'm ready to put some more time in this one. I'm going to go back a re-read Mindreaver considering what I was able to discern from his scum game in the last game we were in. If get the heebee jeebies on him, I would be fine being a counter wagon. I love a good Day 1 Vote Off. Heck I'll be the counter wagon to anyone, as long as I feel like they are scum.
Hi, sorry for the long silence, my 3rd quarter ends tomorrow and I need to finish all of my work. Big post coming sometime tomorrow.
Private Mod Note
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Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"Human kind can not gain anything without first giving something in return. To obtain something of equal value must be lost. That is Alchemy's first law of equivalent exchange." ~Alphonse Elric
Rashek is a tall man--of course, most of these Terrismen are tall. He is young to receive so much respect from the other packmen. He has charisma, and the women of court would probably describe him as handsome, in a rugged sort of way.
Yet, it amazes me that anyone would give heed to a man that speaks such hatred. He has never seen Khlennium, yet he curses the city. He does not know me, yet I can already see the anger and hostility in his eyes.
Rhand's assertation that I'm not talking about anything but the mechanics in #192 and #194 is pretty far off, considering I feel like I've already spent too much time focussing on my concern with Gruffin's self-consciousness. I haven't been fully invested in this game because it was go-time in my other one. That one finished and I'm ready to put some more time in this one. I'm going to go back a re-read Mindreaver considering what I was able to discern from his scum game in the last game we were in. If get the heebee jeebies on him, I would be fine being a counter wagon. I love a good Day 1 Vote Off. Heck I'll be the counter wagon to anyone, as long as I feel like they are scum.
Rashek is a tall man--of course, most of these Terrismen are tall. He is young to receive so much respect from the other packmen. He has charisma, and the women of court would probably describe him as handsome, in a rugged sort of way.
Yet, it amazes me that anyone would give heed to a man that speaks such hatred. He has never seen Khlennium, yet he curses the city. He does not know me, yet I can already see the anger and hostility in his eyes.
That's weird, I was going to do some VA, but it just posted that. Ignore the quote VC, which I think is wrong because I'm pretty sure Mindreaver unvoted. I'm pretty sure GJ's vote is on me not kitbits. I kind of want to take a closer look at the Mindreaver Wagon and the non-voters first. Besides the non-voters, Grapefruit, AtheistGod and Logic have all had their votes on Bur, Bur and Apocado, respectively, from their first posts (which I need to look into).
Hi Rhand, if I thought that was the only remotely scummy thing you have done and am far more convinced that Bur is scum than I'm convinced you are I would have no reason to move my vote to you. Also you weren't the only person who was talking about lynching some of the lurkers, GJ was discussing it in more explicit terms and if you're so convinced that targeting "low hanging fruit" then you should be voting for GJ for twice suggesting we lynch from the bottom up (aka lynch the lurkers).
I'm also not conceding almost everything considering I have a town lean on Terry given the posts I quoted before. Not a strong one but a lean.
Anyway onto my Bur case since almost everyone else has forgotten his existence his entry was joke oriented and to me didn't feel like town Bur. Others interpreted this as genuine town excitement for the game, which at the time was a fair interpretation. He then proceeded to fall off the face of the earth. Life is busy etc. etc. but I think town Bur would make more of an effort after showing that level of interest in the game. Scum Bur on the other hand I've seen replace out after early activity. On top of the activity and tonal read Bur also wasn't particularly town in page 2. Post 68 stands out to me as a particularly useless post that is trying it's hardest to seem engaged and solving the game.
This is very likely a scum post. Too much of it just makes no sense/has no context.
Mindreaver keeps getting scummier in my eyes also. Particularly, this post:
Oh that was opportunistic. I'd rather be scum hunting than defending myself, is the answer. But since I feel that noose tightening (5 votes in fact, probably 2 in spirit, is pretty close to scum hammering me if they aren't on the wagon already), I'm trying to do both.
This comes across entirely as a scum saying what they think a townie is supposed to say, but missing the mark.
That's weird, I was going to do some VA, but it just posted that. Ignore the quote VC, which I think is wrong because I'm pretty sure Mindreaver unvoted. I'm pretty sure GJ's vote is on me not kitbits. I kind of want to take a closer look at the Mindreaver Wagon and the non-voters first. Besides the non-voters, Grapefruit, AtheistGod and Logic have all had their votes on Bur, Bur and Apocado, respectively, from their first posts (which I need to look into).
My reads on my VC analysis concerns Grapefruit: I'm actually liking where Grapefruit is going with things. At first his vote staying on Bur from the beginning seemed weird, but I think he's actually confident in it. I'm not saying its right or wrong, but his confidence alleviates some of my laziness concerns. They aren't afraid to state a different opinion than the crowd. Overall pretty good posting. I always like that they aren't sold on GJ. AtheistGod: On the other hand, AG's posts are exactly what I expect to see from scum that left their RVS vote on the whole day so far. Very little or even none of what AG has posted this game is actually informative or original. There seems to be very little effort being put forth. AG does not look town to me from his Post Analysis. Logic: Has left his original RVS vote on, but has been putting in some effort and been battling access issues. I'd like to see more from him, but lean town. Shadow: What drew my attention from the VC was his non-voting status, but I see in his Post Analysis that he has voted more than most, which makes me feel ok. I feel like one of town's main weapons are votes and I see Shadow using them, but his unvote of Mindreaver makes me uncomfortable because it feels insincere (see post #233). It gives me a slight sense of light scum distancing, with out pushing too hard. I'm not sold on shadow. I'll give him Null for now. Cythare: Two total posts with zero content... dead weight or scum
I'm going to look at the Mindreaver Wagon when I have another break.
So the backpedal was "oh I didn't mean Hunt at all" but only after beingredients called out for it.
I wouldn't even have noticed because it was a toss away comment that at first meant nothing.
But Shadow's vote feels right there. I would go on the record saying I like it. I'm not sold on Logic being scum, as it could simply be a mix up, but pressuring there is good to me. Hanlon's Razor seems to apply though.
I'm honestly having trouble finding motivation to keep up with this game because of the long phase format. Whenever I do come back it feels like the game is happening around me rather than me being in the game, and I'm finding it hard to absorb information of what's going on in the thread. And I keep pushing the 48 hour rule... I'm sorry, but I might end up replacing out soon, cause I can't see myself doing this for weeks and weeks, and I'm not gonna hope for an early mercy kill.
That said I finally caught up again and I'm going to continue to do what I can until I decide if I do want to rep out. So here are my general thoughts, since I have no pings and I'm too tired go about picking out and responding to specific things and quoting.
I can't really follow the Mindreaver train. I see what the accusation is but it's hard for me to see why he got so many votes.
I think Rhand and Cantrip are town from their contributions to analyzing. I am fairly sure Gruffin is town from the town slip earlier.
I still really dislike GJ's posts... something about his interactions with Cantrip makes me think it's town (Cantrip) pushing scum (GJ) and scum just brushing it off without really offering real counterpoints, just trying to invalidate Cantrip's points. I think he is way too focused on getting people to town read him, too, and he doesn't even have a train. He's also pointing at his OWN meta going "see, I would be town according to my meta" which.. you can absolutely do as scum. The fact that someone knows their meta means they can use it to their advantage to, so it doesn't look good at all. And then there's that contradiction about "usually distant as scum, therefore I would be vigilant as scum." Well, whatever the case, he seems hyper vigilant about his own alignment this time. Not to mention still not impressed with the early town reads and his justification for them. I know everyone seems to agree I'm town (which is creepy by the way, I have like 8 posts), but since he was the first to bring it up it still stands out.
I also slightly think he might have seen the mindreaver train happening and took a chance to white knight a little in the event mind gets lynched and flips town so he gets town cred. It wasn't much and I can't remember where in the thread it is but GJ seemed against the mind lynch, which stuck out to me, but correct me if I'm wrong because I'm tired, forgetful, and am just barely comprehending everything.
That said I wanna make it clear I'm still voting GJ and it's not just my RVS that I felt like leaving there.
I really don't have a clue about the other trains or popular scum reads I didn't mention (JoeTerry and Cyan i think? or was it Cythare) they didn't leave an impression on me
I'm also sooort of thinking Shadow and Grape are town, if only cause they comment on gamestate often and i remember them.
I really like this post. It aligns with my view of the game, outside of the Mindreaver brush off.
I'm not sure entirely what it is about GJ'S posts that are pinging me. More thought needed in that area.
That's weird, I was going to do some VA, but it just posted that. Ignore the quote VC, which I think is wrong because I'm pretty sure Mindreaver unvoted. I'm pretty sure GJ's vote is on me not kitbits. I kind of want to take a closer look at the Mindreaver Wagon and the non-voters first. Besides the non-voters, Grapefruit, AtheistGod and Logic have all had their votes on Bur, Bur and Apocado, respectively, from their first posts (which I need to look into).
My reads on my VC analysis concerns Grapefruit: I'm actually liking where Grapefruit is going with things. At first his vote staying on Bur from the beginning seemed weird, but I think he's actually confident in it. I'm not saying its right or wrong, but his confidence alleviates some of my laziness concerns. They aren't afraid to state a different opinion than the crowd. Overall pretty good posting. I always like that they aren't sold on GJ. AtheistGod: On the other hand, AG's posts are exactly what I expect to see from scum that left their RVS vote on the whole day so far. Very little or even none of what AG has posted this game is actually informative or original. There seems to be very little effort being put forth. AG does not look town to me from his Post Analysis. Logic: Has left his original RVS vote on, but has been putting in some effort and been battling access issues. I'd like to see more from him, but lean town. Shadow: What drew my attention from the VC was his non-voting status, but I see in his Post Analysis that he has voted more than most, which makes me feel ok. I feel like one of town's main weapons are votes and I see Shadow using them, but his unvote of Mindreaver makes me uncomfortable because it feels insincere (see post #233). It gives me a slight sense of light scum distancing, with out pushing too hard. I'm not sold on shadow. I'll give him Null for now. Cythare: Two total posts with zero content... dead weight or scum
I'm going to look at the Mindreaver Wagon when I have another break.
No, but it's harder to force cases as scum because you pretty much already know each player's alignment. In my experience scum will unconsciously avoid original thought and case building because it is much harder to do then just mimicing other people's (town) original thoughts. For the same reason, scum will also act involved with leading questions that don't require original thought of their own. I think this is why GJ and some others might be feeling wrong to you. There are a couple players here directing traffic and watching other players basically do their bidding.
I'm concerned with Bur. He came into this game and was playful and made some posts, and then disappeared. And when Avalon ended, he made a big point about his scum meta being so bad because he just goes full inactive. Now, his entrance goes against that, but the fact that he is aware of it, and then completely dropped off just...ugh.
Now this gets a little fuzzy, but I feel like Grapefruit being scum makes sense alongside Bur. He seems too sure of Bur being scum, knows Bur's propensity for a bad scum game, and general could use that to his advantage. Additionally, I rather like Rband clocking Grapefruit overall, and could see him as scum without Bur too. Vote Grapefruit
Hi Shadow, let me follow your logic for a second. You're now worried that Bur is scum. You are worried for similar reasons to what I've been saying for the whole game. Which has you worried that I am turbo busing Bur.
To resolve this you want to lynch me. Which reveals nothing about Burs alignment.
Hi Shadow, let me follow your logic for a second. You're now worried that Bur is scum. You are worried for similar reasons to what I've been saying for the whole game. Which has you worried that I am turbo busing Bur.
To resolve this you want to lynch me. Which reveals nothing about Burs alignment.
What about my response to Shadow is scummy? Additionally why is AG scummy for providing statements without context or reasoning but you aren't?
Thanks
Sincerely,
Grapefruit
P.S. Shadow's case is pure speculation without Bur's flip. Well there is his sheeping of Rhand but I've disputed that elsewhere and no one has replied to that as of yet so I don't feel the need to repeat it here.
I really like #251, moves Kitbits to town in my eyes. Getting a lot more town reads than scum reads so far. Cantrip, Kitbits, Rhand, Shadow all sound town to me.
Hi Rhand, if I thought that was the only remotely scummy thing you have done and am far more convinced that Bur is scum than I'm convinced you are I would have no reason to move my vote to you. Also you weren't the only person who was talking about lynching some of the lurkers, GJ was discussing it in more explicit terms and if you're so convinced that targeting "low hanging fruit" then you should be voting for GJ for twice suggesting we lynch from the bottom up (aka lynch the lurkers).
I'm also not conceding almost everything considering I have a town lean on Terry given the posts I quoted before. Not a strong one but a lean.
Anyway onto my Bur case since almost everyone else has forgotten his existence his entry was joke oriented and to me didn't feel like town Bur. Others interpreted this as genuine town excitement for the game, which at the time was a fair interpretation. He then proceeded to fall off the face of the earth. Life is busy etc. etc. but I think town Bur would make more of an effort after showing that level of interest in the game. Scum Bur on the other hand I've seen replace out after early activity. On top of the activity and tonal read Bur also wasn't particularly town in page 2. Post 68 stands out to me as a particularly useless post that is trying it's hardest to seem engaged and solving the game.
So you’re saying that going after LHF is only remotely scummy?
Also, I never said that lynching the low posters = going after LHF. GJ actually has a point there: scum often hide in the low postcounts on this site. You’re putting words in my mouth there.
So the backpedal was "oh I didn't mean Hunt at all" but only after beingredients called out for it.
I wouldn't even have noticed because it was a toss away comment that at first meant nothing.
But Shadow's vote feels right there. I would go on the record saying I like it. I'm not sold on Logic being scum, as it could simply be a mix up, but pressuring there is good to me. Hanlon's Razor seems to apply though.
I'm concerned with Bur. He came into this game and was playful and made some posts, and then disappeared. And when Avalon ended, he made a big point about his scum meta being so bad because he just goes full inactive. Now, his entrance goes against that, but the fact that he is aware of it, and then completely dropped off just...ugh.
Now this gets a little fuzzy, but I feel like Grapefruit being scum makes sense alongside Bur. He seems too sure of Bur being scum, knows Bur's propensity for a bad scum game, and general could use that to his advantage. Additionally, I rather like Rband clocking Grapefruit overall, and could see him as scum without Bur too. Vote Grapefruit
How does it make sense for scum!Grape to keep his vote on scum!Bur while there’s a lot of other stuff going on and nothing from Bur?
Hi Shadow, let me follow your logic for a second. You're now worried that Bur is scum. You are worried for similar reasons to what I've been saying for the whole game. Which has you worried that I am turbo busing Bur.
To resolve this you want to lynch me. Which reveals nothing about Burs alignment.
Seems like a bad plan to me.
Lol what? Unvote, Vote Grapefruit
I would like it if you would use more words to defend your stance here, but
That's weird, I was going to do some VA, but it just posted that. Ignore the quote VC, which I think is wrong because I'm pretty sure Mindreaver unvoted. I'm pretty sure GJ's vote is on me not kitbits. I kind of want to take a closer look at the Mindreaver Wagon and the non-voters first. Besides the non-voters, Grapefruit, AtheistGod and Logic have all had their votes on Bur, Bur and Apocado, respectively, from their first posts (which I need to look into).
My reads on my VC analysis concerns Grapefruit: I'm actually liking where Grapefruit is going with things. At first his vote staying on Bur from the beginning seemed weird, but I think he's actually confident in it. I'm not saying its right or wrong, but his confidence alleviates some of my laziness concerns. They aren't afraid to state a different opinion than the crowd. Overall pretty good posting. I always like that they aren't sold on GJ. AtheistGod: On the other hand, AG's posts are exactly what I expect to see from scum that left their RVS vote on the whole day so far. Very little or even none of what AG has posted this game is actually informative or original. There seems to be very little effort being put forth. AG does not look town to me from his Post Analysis. Logic: Has left his original RVS vote on, but has been putting in some effort and been battling access issues. I'd like to see more from him, but lean town. Shadow: What drew my attention from the VC was his non-voting status, but I see in his Post Analysis that he has voted more than most, which makes me feel ok. I feel like one of town's main weapons are votes and I see Shadow using them, but his unvote of Mindreaver makes me uncomfortable because it feels insincere (see post #233). It gives me a slight sense of light scum distancing, with out pushing too hard. I'm not sold on shadow. I'll give him Null for now. Cythare: Two total posts with zero content... dead weight or scum
I'm going to look at the Mindreaver Wagon when I have another break.
Didn’t you say that you thought Mind was town? That doesn’t jive with your Shadow read at all.
@Rhand I think I'm using too much lingo and it's getting in the way of my intent. You have assumed (and fairly so give my language) that I think you are scum. In reality I saw a lot of towny behavior and one big red flag. That's why I said it was the only remotely scummy thing. Not because it was remotely scummy, but because the rest of your behavior was very towny.
So I saw one red flag, and it was you picking out the low posters of a group who voted similarly. I thought it was either you positioning the lynch to be on a low post count player, which to me is not an ideal D1 lynch unless you're sure it is scum. Having a lot of interactions to look at is a valuable asset. I used the LHF terminology when I should have said lurkers. I was using LHF as an almost synonym with a harsher context to drive home my point that your targets were all easier to lynch than their similarly behaved counterparts with a higher post count. I am undecided if that was scum positioning or town taking a path of less resistance. Your responses since then have me thinking the latter.
As for the comparison to GJ, that was me drawing a parallel. But I typed without double checking and it doesn't read as much like it. I was trying to say you focusing (at the time) on Terry and Apocado over Cyan and Hunt was similar to GJ suggesting to lynch from the bottom up. And when you said if I believed that trying to lynch low hanging fruit was scummy that I should be voting you, I turned around and challenged you to vote Johnny for advocated lynching from the bottom up. I had no intention, and don't think I said that you were advocating to lynch LHF. Just that you target of Apocado and Terry was doing that. Since you're voting me now, that whole argument is moot.
The fact that my read on you was divided is why I didn't comment of AG's read of you. I'm torn about so I have nothing to say about an unsupported read on you.
Lastly I really wanted to OMGUS shadow, but I've kind of decided his vote on me (with my knowledge that I'm town) makes him close to lock town. I don't think scum!shadow makes that jump from Scum!Bur to voting me regardless of Burs alignment. Pushing me first kills the chain mislynch potential since I've been pushing Bur whereas lynching Bur first still let's him push my lynch toMorrow regardless of Burs flip.
The weather finally cleared up today, internet and power seem to be back up.
I am at work right now, I will be back reading and positing thoughts later today.
Now this gets a little fuzzy, but I feel like Grapefruit being scum makes sense alongside Bur. He seems too sure of Bur being scum, knows Bur's propensity for a bad scum game, and general could use that to his advantage. Additionally, I rather like Rband clocking Grapefruit overall, and could see him as scum without Bur too.
Lastly I really wanted to OMGUS shadow, but I've kind of decided his vote on me (with my knowledge that I'm town) makes him close to lock town. I don't think scum!shadow makes that jump from Scum!Bur to voting me regardless of Burs alignment. Pushing me first kills the chain mislynch potential since I've been pushing Bur whereas lynching Bur first still let's him push my lynch toMorrow regardless of Burs flip.
Why Do you guys think scum is gonna bus like this on Day one? Is that a common thing here or something? Doesn't make sense to me.
Hi Shadow, let me follow your logic for a second. You're now worried that Bur is scum. You are worried for similar reasons to what I've been saying for the whole game. Which has you worried that I am turbo busing Bur.
To resolve this you want to lynch me. Which reveals nothing about Burs alignment.
Seems like a bad plan to me.
I don't want to resolve Bur's alignment with your lynch, I want to lynch you because I really don't like your interactions with Rhand.
In parallel I am concerned that I cleared Bur incorrectly, and find that it isn't that outlandish for you and he to be scum together. Especially since how sure you claim to be on Bur doesn't really make sense.
How does it make sense for scum!Grape to keep his vote on scum!Bur while there’s a lot of other stuff going on and nothing from Bur?
In a world where they're both scum, imagine the town cred that Grapefruit could garner from the "see, I totally called that from page one!" angle. In a world where just grapefruit is scum, the amount of discussion about the Bur wagon and insinuation about how the whole wagon might just be town gives grapefruit no incentive to move currently. This actually makes we wonder something else, but I'm going to make note of it, check it out, and follow that line of thought later. If Grapefruit flips scum, someone remind me of this.
Lastly I really wanted to OMGUS shadow, but I've kind of decided his vote on me (with my knowledge that I'm town) makes him close to lock town. I don't think scum!shadow makes that jump from Scum!Bur to voting me regardless of Burs alignment. Pushing me first kills the chain mislynch potential since I've been pushing Bur whereas lynching Bur first still let's him push my lynch toMorrow regardless of Burs flip.
Um what? First off, why did you feel the need to add the line "with my knowledge that I'm town", and second, how on earth does this logic follow? Couldn't scum!me just push on Bur anyway if you flip town? Or vise versa? How does this make me close to lock town?
Why Do you guys think scum is gonna bus like this on Day one? Is that a common thing here or something? Doesn't make sense to me.
Also what is "Rband clocking"
It should say "Rhand clocking" basically I really liked Rhand's push on grapefruit and the reasons he listed. Basically it could just read "/barn Rhand on grapefruit".
As far as day one bussing, yeah, it's a pretty prominent thing. For instance, in Overwatch Mafia, Cantrip and I both voted to lynch our scumbuddy day one.
I'm concerned with Bur. He came into this game and was playful and made some posts, and then disappeared. And when Avalon ended, he made a big point about his scum meta being so bad because he just goes full inactive. Now, his entrance goes against that, but the fact that he is aware of it, and then completely dropped off just...ugh.
Now this gets a little fuzzy, but I feel like Grapefruit being scum makes sense alongside Bur. He seems too sure of Bur being scum, knows Bur's propensity for a bad scum game, and general could use that to his advantage. Additionally, I rather like Rband clocking Grapefruit overall, and could see him as scum without Bur too. Vote Grapefruit
I'm sorry, but this does not compute to me and nether does Cyan's barn.
@Rhand #278: My point with my comment on Shadow is that it was something that felt uncomfortable to me and I could very well, upon further reading, change my opinion on Mindreaver.
I really like #251, moves Kitbits to town in my eyes. Getting a lot more town reads than scum reads so far. Cantrip, Kitbits, Rhand, Shadow all sound town to me.
@Terry: Why do you think my vote is still on Bur?
I have no idea, you tell me. Stop with the leading questions.
@Shadow Two things: first I assumed you were more interested in resolving me/Bur since the majority of your post was about that, with one "ohh and I agree with Rhand" tossed in at the end.
Second my logic was faulty last night, at the time I was reading your post as 100% declaration that you'd push me than Bur. But it clearly isn't that and I was wrong in reading you. I still think it makes you more likely to be town than scum, but I have much less confidence in that read than previously.
Third and breaking my earlier word I also disagree that my vote on Bur doesn't make sense. I can link to 2 games where Bur was town and not joking in RVS (I couldn't earlier as Disinheritance is one of them) and one offsite game where he was pretty jokey and enthused in the early game before replacing out. Again didn't link it earlier because Avalon and Disinheritance were ongoing and the kosher sample size to link was one of each alignment which isn't a trend at all. And again he was asking some super softballs early on, including asking Gruffin if she was scum and someone else their thoughts on the game as a whole. Fake engagement is present too.
@Rhand I don't feel like I backtracked at all. Anyway a more concise response: you proposed lynching low post count players over other people who had similar behaviour. I called this targeting Low Hanging Fruit. My intent was to say it's settling for an easier lynch rather than pushing someone with more content and similar behavior.
I then drew a parallel between your criteria for me to place vote on you and your non vote on GJ who suggested lynching from the bottom up. The implication being lynching bottom up is the same as targeting LHF. And then if it's so scummy that I haven't voted for it you why I haven't you voted GJ who openly advocated what I'm accusing you of twice. Where my case fell apart is that we were using LHF to mean different things.
For the record I don't think either behaviour is that scummy. I think it's complacent town and that explains my lack of vote and continued engagement on the issue.
I'm sorry, but this does not compute to me and nether does Cyan's barn.
Are you looking for a response to this? What specifically doesn't compute, care to dig deeper?
The majority of the post was discussing why Bur was scum, which you seemed pretty sure of, but instead of pushing Bur you push Grapefruit who is guilty by association.
I really like #251, moves Kitbits to town in my eyes. Getting a lot more town reads than scum reads so far. Cantrip, Kitbits, Rhand, Shadow all sound town to me.
@Terry: Why do you think my vote is still on Bur?
I have no idea, you tell me. Stop with the leading questions.
You seemed to think it's scummy. I assumed you would have an explanation for why it would be there as scum.
I'm sorry, but this does not compute to me and nether does Cyan's barn.
Are you looking for a response to this? What specifically doesn't compute, care to dig deeper?
The majority of the post was discussing why Bur was scum, which you seemed pretty sure of, but instead of pushing Bur you push Grapefruit who is guilty by association.
The Bur commentary was more about how I was worried, rather that had strong feelings on. Grapefruit didn't need a lot said about him, he was brought up alongside Bur just as my speculating on whether they could be scum together or not.
Had to take my daughter to the doctor today, which turned into a trip to the hospital to get blood drawn for testing, which took the time I had planned to post today. We're also entering the weekend, which is always spotty for me. I will try to post tonight, but otherwise may not be able to contribute much until Monday. Sorry.
One thing of note:
@Cyan: What changed w/r/t Mindreaver that you are not now voting him despite your reason for unvoting him (to vote Grape) no longer persists?
AtheistGod not impressing me. His barn vote of 231, and feels really hedgey on Mindreaver. Makes me more in the Mind is town camp. The hard null on Cyan also feels bleh in contrast to the rest of the post, and him not really taking a stance on me either feels really weed waiting.
Quote from shadow »
If this is Mind just appeasing the attacker then...well it's kinda working. Hmmm.
Now that that filthy game is over I can say this: If you are town, you are letting yourself get pocketed too easily. Not saying you are wrong, but something I have noticed of you. I think it makes you more likely town in this game, but work on trying to figure out if wolves are trying to manipulate you. I did it a **** ton in Disinheritance.
Quote from Cantrip »
Ok, so I was reading correctly. With that clarified, you do see the disconnect here, don't you? You say that you're aware of your own meta and would try to be more vigilant as a wolf, but also that you are more disconnected when you're a wolf. So if you're disconnected from the game (and I saw that from you early on, pre-garnering suspicion, which would be when you would be potentially less vigilant), then your meta says that you're more likely to be scum.
Honestly depends on my wolf burn out meter. I like playing wolf and will do it, but suffer greatly if I am wolfing in a 2+ games as well (which for those in Inheritance, is why I started to tank late day 1, day 2.
@gruffin: Yes. Equity is basically credit or odds. It's an assumption based outlook at the game where you assume town can make wolf posts, and vice-versa. It's all obviously arbitrary, but eh.
Hate the Gruffin Cyan vote. Even if I wanted to go that route, there are better wolf targets that are both not doing anything AND are wolfy in their few posts.
Like Cyan's analysis in 249.
Kit'ss 251 is great except the vote on me which it I find more lolKit than I do wolfy push. Still reading pure.
Like Joe's 264 on vote count analysis, and curious to see if he can keep pushing. Like it enough that I am going to Unvote.
Don't like Hunt's posts. He feels super hedgey as well, and just looking for something to jump on without really adding anything on his own.
Not a fan of Grapefruit wagon either. Don't think he has done anything that wolfy, and Shadow's point seems to only really apply if Bur is a wolf too (and it feels like a really weird distance/bus point if they are W/W).
Quote from AtheistGod »
I really like #251, moves Kitbits to town in my eyes. Getting a lot more town reads than scum reads so far. Cantrip, Kitbits, Rhand, Shadow all sound town to me.
@Terry: Why do you think my vote is still on Bur?
More hedge, and no voting despite the fact a large chunk of Kit's post was a vote and reason for voting me. Vote AtheistGod.
Now that that filthy game is over I can say this: If you are town, you are letting yourself get pocketed too easily. Not saying you are wrong, but something I have noticed of you. I think it makes you more likely town in this game, but work on trying to figure out if wolves are trying to manipulate you. I did it a **** ton in Disinheritance.
I think you're over estimating yourself. I wanted you to be town more than I ever actually believed you were. The only thing you really had a direct influence on was my part in lynching Bur day 1, and I would have unvoted if Manders hadn't mad that awful hammer. If you recall, day 2, I was on Iso, and day 3, I was instrumental in steering the wagon off of wildfire and onto you (not that it actually mattered cause you were both scum). Additionally, I fed you false role info, and then leveraged your words against you from our private chat to get empowerment, then lynched you anyway.
I pocket people. I'd like to think I've gotten pretty good at it; and yes, while I'm not immune to being on the receiving end, I know what it looks like. No, mind is not pocketing me.
That said I finally caught up again and I'm going to continue to do what I can until I decide if I do want to rep out. So here are my general thoughts, since I have no pings and I'm too tired go about picking out and responding to specific things and quoting.
I can't really follow the Mindreaver train. I see what the accusation is but it's hard for me to see why he got so many votes.
I think Rhand and Cantrip are town from their contributions to analyzing. I am fairly sure Gruffin is town from the town slip earlier.
I still really dislike GJ's posts... something about his interactions with Cantrip makes me think it's town (Cantrip) pushing scum (GJ) and scum just brushing it off without really offering real counterpoints, just trying to invalidate Cantrip's points. I think he is way too focused on getting people to town read him, too, and he doesn't even have a train. He's also pointing at his OWN meta going "see, I would be town according to my meta" which.. you can absolutely do as scum. The fact that someone knows their meta means they can use it to their advantage to, so it doesn't look good at all. And then there's that contradiction about "usually distant as scum, therefore I would be vigilant as scum." Well, whatever the case, he seems hyper vigilant about his own alignment this time. Not to mention still not impressed with the early town reads and his justification for them. I know everyone seems to agree I'm town (which is creepy by the way, I have like 8 posts), but since he was the first to bring it up it still stands out.
I also slightly think he might have seen the mindreaver train happening and took a chance to white knight a little in the event mind gets lynched and flips town so he gets town cred. It wasn't much and I can't remember where in the thread it is but GJ seemed against the mind lynch, which stuck out to me, but correct me if I'm wrong because I'm tired, forgetful, and am just barely comprehending everything.
That said I wanna make it clear I'm still voting GJ and it's not just my RVS that I felt like leaving there.
I really don't have a clue about the other trains or popular scum reads I didn't mention (JoeTerry and Cyan i think? or was it Cythare) they didn't leave an impression on me
I'm also sooort of thinking Shadow and Grape are town, if only cause they comment on gamestate often and i remember them.
You're conceding almost all of it now, but you did a great job misrepresenting me there.
I don't like the wording on your last sentence. If what I'm doing is "definitely positioning to pluck some of the easier ones", then your vote should be on me. Town doesn't pluck low hanging fruit, and your use of the word "definitely" should mean I am sure scum to you.
unvote, vote: Grapefruit21
About par. But I like to put my vote where my tongue is. It gives more pressure.
Anyways, I think I found scum in Grapefruit now, and that read is stronger.
After that whole post you made about me, you’re giving AG townpoints for a post where he calls me town?
When Cantrip asks you to explain, why do you not mention that you don’t disagree with the Rhand read?
@Cyan: what part of the AG post makes no sense?
Do you have a town game that I can look at?
Yet, it amazes me that anyone would give heed to a man that speaks such hatred. He has never seen Khlennium, yet he curses the city. He does not know me, yet I can already see the anger and hostility in his eyes.
Vote Count 1.07 (9 to lynch)
[4] Mindreaver - Cantripmancer, Apocado, Cyan, Huntzilla
[2] TheRealStinkyJoeTerry - Bur, Gentleman Johnny
[2] Bur - Grapefruit21, AtheistGod
[2] Gruffinchops - Mindreaver, TheRealStinkyJoeTerry
[1] Apocado - LogicoftheVI
[1] Cyan - Gruffinchops
[1] Gentleman Johnny - Kitbits
[1] Grapefruit21 - Rhand
Not Voting: Cythare, shadowlancerx
Logic will be V/LA until Thursday (today).
Cythare and Bur has been prodded.
The deadline is on Friday, March 17th.
Draft my cube! (630 cards)
I'm also not conceding almost everything considering I have a town lean on Terry given the posts I quoted before. Not a strong one but a lean.
Anyway onto my Bur case since almost everyone else has forgotten his existence his entry was joke oriented and to me didn't feel like town Bur. Others interpreted this as genuine town excitement for the game, which at the time was a fair interpretation. He then proceeded to fall off the face of the earth. Life is busy etc. etc. but I think town Bur would make more of an effort after showing that level of interest in the game. Scum Bur on the other hand I've seen replace out after early activity. On top of the activity and tonal read Bur also wasn't particularly town in page 2. Post 68 stands out to me as a particularly useless post that is trying it's hardest to seem engaged and solving the game.
Grapefruit: I'm actually liking where Grapefruit is going with things. At first his vote staying on Bur from the beginning seemed weird, but I think he's actually confident in it. I'm not saying its right or wrong, but his confidence alleviates some of my laziness concerns. They aren't afraid to state a different opinion than the crowd. Overall pretty good posting. I always like that they aren't sold on GJ.
AtheistGod: On the other hand, AG's posts are exactly what I expect to see from scum that left their RVS vote on the whole day so far. Very little or even none of what AG has posted this game is actually informative or original. There seems to be very little effort being put forth. AG does not look town to me from his Post Analysis.
Logic: Has left his original RVS vote on, but has been putting in some effort and been battling access issues. I'd like to see more from him, but lean town.
Shadow: What drew my attention from the VC was his non-voting status, but I see in his Post Analysis that he has voted more than most, which makes me feel ok. I feel like one of town's main weapons are votes and I see Shadow using them, but his unvote of Mindreaver makes me uncomfortable because it feels insincere (see post #233). It gives me a slight sense of light scum distancing, with out pushing too hard. I'm not sold on shadow. I'll give him Null for now.
Cythare: Two total posts with zero content... dead weight or scum
I'm going to look at the Mindreaver Wagon when I have another break.
So the backpedal was "oh I didn't mean Hunt at all" but only after beingredients called out for it.
I wouldn't even have noticed because it was a toss away comment that at first meant nothing.
But Shadow's vote feels right there. I would go on the record saying I like it. I'm not sold on Logic being scum, as it could simply be a mix up, but pressuring there is good to me. Hanlon's Razor seems to apply though.
Autocorrect and quote fails are going to ruin me
I'm not sure entirely what it is about GJ'S posts that are pinging me. More thought needed in that area.
Point is, I will make posts tomorrow.
The GJ way path to no lynching:
Now this gets a little fuzzy, but I feel like Grapefruit being scum makes sense alongside Bur. He seems too sure of Bur being scum, knows Bur's propensity for a bad scum game, and general could use that to his advantage. Additionally, I rather like Rband clocking Grapefruit overall, and could see him as scum without Bur too.
Vote Grapefruit
To resolve this you want to lynch me. Which reveals nothing about Burs alignment.
Seems like a bad plan to me.
Lol what? Unvote, Vote Grapefruit
What about my response to Shadow is scummy? Additionally why is AG scummy for providing statements without context or reasoning but you aren't?
Thanks
Sincerely,
Grapefruit
P.S. Shadow's case is pure speculation without Bur's flip. Well there is his sheeping of Rhand but I've disputed that elsewhere and no one has replied to that as of yet so I don't feel the need to repeat it here.
@Terry: Why do you think my vote is still on Bur?
Meh. You sound the same as Avalon, but without a town game to compare that tells me nothing :/
So you’re saying that going after LHF is only remotely scummy?
Also, I never said that lynching the low posters = going after LHF. GJ actually has a point there: scum often hide in the low postcounts on this site. You’re putting words in my mouth there.
What’s Hanlon’s Razor?
How does it make sense for scum!Grape to keep his vote on scum!Bur while there’s a lot of other stuff going on and nothing from Bur?
I would like it if you would use more words to defend your stance here, but
Didn’t you say that you thought Mind was town? That doesn’t jive with your Shadow read at all.
So I saw one red flag, and it was you picking out the low posters of a group who voted similarly. I thought it was either you positioning the lynch to be on a low post count player, which to me is not an ideal D1 lynch unless you're sure it is scum. Having a lot of interactions to look at is a valuable asset. I used the LHF terminology when I should have said lurkers. I was using LHF as an almost synonym with a harsher context to drive home my point that your targets were all easier to lynch than their similarly behaved counterparts with a higher post count. I am undecided if that was scum positioning or town taking a path of less resistance. Your responses since then have me thinking the latter.
As for the comparison to GJ, that was me drawing a parallel. But I typed without double checking and it doesn't read as much like it. I was trying to say you focusing (at the time) on Terry and Apocado over Cyan and Hunt was similar to GJ suggesting to lynch from the bottom up. And when you said if I believed that trying to lynch low hanging fruit was scummy that I should be voting you, I turned around and challenged you to vote Johnny for advocated lynching from the bottom up. I had no intention, and don't think I said that you were advocating to lynch LHF. Just that you target of Apocado and Terry was doing that. Since you're voting me now, that whole argument is moot.
The fact that my read on you was divided is why I didn't comment of AG's read of you. I'm torn about so I have nothing to say about an unsupported read on you.
Lastly I really wanted to OMGUS shadow, but I've kind of decided his vote on me (with my knowledge that I'm town) makes him close to lock town. I don't think scum!shadow makes that jump from Scum!Bur to voting me regardless of Burs alignment. Pushing me first kills the chain mislynch potential since I've been pushing Bur whereas lynching Bur first still let's him push my lynch toMorrow regardless of Burs flip.
Also Hanlon's razor iirc is don't attribute to malice what can be attributed to incompetence.
Last I forgot to ask, Rhand your question to shadow implies a Bur town read or lean. Is that what you think right now?
I'm null on Bur. I'm simply trying to understand what Shadow (says he) is seeing.
I am at work right now, I will be back reading and positing thoughts later today.
Also what is "Rband clocking"
In parallel I am concerned that I cleared Bur incorrectly, and find that it isn't that outlandish for you and he to be scum together. Especially since how sure you claim to be on Bur doesn't really make sense. In a world where they're both scum, imagine the town cred that Grapefruit could garner from the "see, I totally called that from page one!" angle. In a world where just grapefruit is scum, the amount of discussion about the Bur wagon and insinuation about how the whole wagon might just be town gives grapefruit no incentive to move currently. This actually makes we wonder something else, but I'm going to make note of it, check it out, and follow that line of thought later. If Grapefruit flips scum, someone remind me of this. Um what? First off, why did you feel the need to add the line "with my knowledge that I'm town", and second, how on earth does this logic follow? Couldn't scum!me just push on Bur anyway if you flip town? Or vise versa? How does this make me close to lock town? It should say "Rhand clocking" basically I really liked Rhand's push on grapefruit and the reasons he listed. Basically it could just read "/barn Rhand on grapefruit".
As far as day one bussing, yeah, it's a pretty prominent thing. For instance, in Overwatch Mafia, Cantrip and I both voted to lynch our scumbuddy day one.
Second my logic was faulty last night, at the time I was reading your post as 100% declaration that you'd push me than Bur. But it clearly isn't that and I was wrong in reading you. I still think it makes you more likely to be town than scum, but I have much less confidence in that read than previously.
Third and breaking my earlier word I also disagree that my vote on Bur doesn't make sense. I can link to 2 games where Bur was town and not joking in RVS (I couldn't earlier as Disinheritance is one of them) and one offsite game where he was pretty jokey and enthused in the early game before replacing out. Again didn't link it earlier because Avalon and Disinheritance were ongoing and the kosher sample size to link was one of each alignment which isn't a trend at all. And again he was asking some super softballs early on, including asking Gruffin if she was scum and someone else their thoughts on the game as a whole. Fake engagement is present too.
@Rhand I don't feel like I backtracked at all. Anyway a more concise response: you proposed lynching low post count players over other people who had similar behaviour. I called this targeting Low Hanging Fruit. My intent was to say it's settling for an easier lynch rather than pushing someone with more content and similar behavior.
I then drew a parallel between your criteria for me to place vote on you and your non vote on GJ who suggested lynching from the bottom up. The implication being lynching bottom up is the same as targeting LHF. And then if it's so scummy that I haven't voted for it you why I haven't you voted GJ who openly advocated what I'm accusing you of twice. Where my case fell apart is that we were using LHF to mean different things.
For the record I don't think either behaviour is that scummy. I think it's complacent town and that explains my lack of vote and continued engagement on the issue.
You seemed to think it's scummy. I assumed you would have an explanation for why it would be there as scum.
I didn't pretend like I was trying to provide context or reasoning.
One thing of note:
@Cyan: What changed w/r/t Mindreaver that you are not now voting him despite your reason for unvoting him (to vote Grape) no longer persists?
AtheistGod not impressing me. His barn vote of 231, and feels really hedgey on Mindreaver. Makes me more in the Mind is town camp. The hard null on Cyan also feels bleh in contrast to the rest of the post, and him not really taking a stance on me either feels really weed waiting.
Now that that filthy game is over I can say this: If you are town, you are letting yourself get pocketed too easily. Not saying you are wrong, but something I have noticed of you. I think it makes you more likely town in this game, but work on trying to figure out if wolves are trying to manipulate you. I did it a **** ton in Disinheritance.
Honestly depends on my wolf burn out meter. I like playing wolf and will do it, but suffer greatly if I am wolfing in a 2+ games as well (which for those in Inheritance, is why I started to tank late day 1, day 2.
@gruffin: Yes. Equity is basically credit or odds. It's an assumption based outlook at the game where you assume town can make wolf posts, and vice-versa. It's all obviously arbitrary, but eh.
Hate the Gruffin Cyan vote. Even if I wanted to go that route, there are better wolf targets that are both not doing anything AND are wolfy in their few posts.
Like Cyan's analysis in 249.
Kit'ss 251 is great except the vote on me which it I find more lolKit than I do wolfy push. Still reading pure.
Like Joe's 264 on vote count analysis, and curious to see if he can keep pushing. Like it enough that I am going to Unvote.
Don't like Hunt's posts. He feels super hedgey as well, and just looking for something to jump on without really adding anything on his own.
The GJ way path to no lynching:
More hedge, and no voting despite the fact a large chunk of Kit's post was a vote and reason for voting me. Vote AtheistGod.
Top of Brain list
VV
GJ
Kitbits
V
Cyan
Shadow
Rhand
Cantripmancer
Grapefruit
Mind
Null Line
W
AtheistGod
Cythare
Huntzilla
The GJ way path to no lynching:
I didn't really think about it. I should probably look at his posts more in depth anyway.
I like where GJ's head is at in general, but I don't agree with him about AG's post being bad. I think that is a pro-town post on AG's part.
I pocket people. I'd like to think I've gotten pretty good at it; and yes, while I'm not immune to being on the receiving end, I know what it looks like. No, mind is not pocketing me.