@KJ - What I want from you is very clear; if you're town I need to see that your Tom!Scum read is actually genuine; explaining it in as much detail as you can (And no, your early comments re; his playstyle isn't anywhere near enough and the "I don't use meta" excuse response towards him while you used it on Nacho earlier is a concern) since that's apparently you're strongest scum read.
@Nacho - The meta diving / comparison section of Toms Iso read is actually something I'm reading as town and while the "Not fighting the X=Y lynch while scum reading Iso" section makes some sense from you he also scum read X=Y at the time and fighting lynching one of your scum reads (Via individual play) just because they don't work with another scum read of yours isn't what you do D1.
No. I already said I thought about how I would play this style as scum. How to use the playstyle to my advantage. While me trying to be Voxx as town was always gonna be less than, I do have a fair amount of confidence I would use it as scum at least as well as he does. Because yes, I love being scum. Because he just townsides and let's his partners get lynched. But that's not my way. Hasn't been since my first couple of scum games when I just tried to act as if I was town and hope I lived.
So no. I'm not saying I'm town because I correctly townread people. Any scum can do that. It's actually easier to do when you know peoples' alignments. Duh. My very point in that statement was that Voxx could be scum here and I can't, because I'm a goddamn powerwolf. Like, you think if I rolled scum here I would copy Voxx's game including his failings? It's like you don't know me at all.
Regfan, you glossed past this pretty hard but this is saying "Voxx sucks as scum but I don't". That's his argument here, that his play looks eerily like Voxx's would as scum but it's not because he's the MASTER POWER WOLF. No, that's a garbage argument.
I've done some pretty heavy coaching of late. Not every scumteam needs it, but you should see me and Empoof's scumdiscord from the MU mountainous game. It's not about crafting the posts though so much as giving him a starting point. That said, I don't even know what that starting point would be. Which is why you don't currently have a better reason than "Killjoy is town and Regfan is still alive"
Because I am townie as ****.
This is also similarly ridiculous.
He's arguing he can't be scum with Killjoy because he would have coached Killjoy to be better while we were playing a scum game together and he wasn't doing ***** for coaching.
His approach coming into this game "oh I'm so absolutely floored I'm getting suspicion! I'm so town!" is not tom as town dealing with paranoia, tom as town welcomes and expects paranoia because he loves playing scum and is proud of it; this convoluted argument of "oh I'd be better and scarier I wouldn't be the same as Voxx and all his failings" is not a good argument to lock clear him as town like he's pretending and everyone who's actually reading his posts should know it.
@KJ - What I want from you is very clear; if you're town I need to see that your Tom!Scum read is actually genuine; explaining it in as much detail as you can (And no, your early comments re; his playstyle isn't anywhere near enough and the "I don't use meta" excuse response towards him while you used it on Nacho earlier is a concern) since that's apparently you're strongest scum read.
@Nacho - The meta diving / comparison section of Toms Iso read is actually something I'm reading as town and while the "Not fighting the X=Y lynch while scum reading Iso" section makes some sense from you he also scum read X=Y at the time and fighting lynching one of your scum reads (Via individual play) just because they don't work with another scum read of yours isn't what you do D1.
How is the comparison bit town?
He's willing to do the work as scum so that certainly can't be it and going "you talked about yourself in this year old game as scum you're scum here" is a horrible argument so you seeing the validity isn't it either.
Tom read Iso as scum because, as town, he was insanely competent. As scum, he goes to cause as much damage to the town as possible before going down. This is a strong belief that Tom held while pushing Iso and yet he never worried about the X=Y wagon that cropped up all day and he never tried to push it back (and ended up, in the end when voting X=Y, going "hey maybe this will clear Iso!" despite feeling very strongly about the Iso read (talked about it a fair bit) and not so strongly about the X=Y read (didn't). You can't tell me it doesn't make sense for tom as town to push back against the X=Y wagon at least a little bit based on the specific nature of his Iso read.
@Nacho - His argument is that as scum he'd attempt to defend his partners rather than do what Voxx would and let them fall inside the PoE, this is something I don't disbelieve; I saw how he handled Vaimes as his partner inside Mountainous Mafia a game that finished a few weeks ago, he didn't particularly hard defend Vaimes but he certainly tried to keep him alive whenever possible and that's with someone that he knows has a weak scum game. So, it's a case of "Look at his reads" and throughout the entire game they're mirrored mine very closely, I can follow his thought process behind it and they don't look like him "Sneaking his partner inside" outside of hilariously enough probably his read on you. I'll concede that you're probably right in the second comment of his about the "Coaching" is a weak one. I find/found the meta research to come across as very genuine; as him actually suspecting Iso for meta reasons and small comments of him outside of the initial meta comment ie. Ongoing games he had in mind that he couldn't mention at the time strengthened that.
If there were 10 minutes until deadline, the Pozzai case wouldn't change; the only things I've read from his slot are the things at the very beginning. The X=Y thing is based on his big wall on Pozzai which didn't really seem like legitimate analysis; I suppose I'd pick it apart more thoroughly if deadline wasn't so soon but I don't like the repeated mentions of having to understand his play better before reading him because he doesn't make that comment about anyone else and I don't like how the analysis by the end of it feels so... weak? tentative? blah? I didn't like his push on Delphine, particularly the "why haven't you voted in seven pages?" bit and extended questioning after that. Recently, I didn't like his response to Iso's vote; the piece where he went "I'm voting you because you're voting me" especially because it seemed hollow and fake, didn't have the same bite as a townie who thought scum was voting them in a bull***** way would have.
Nacho is apparently scumreading Pozzai, but doesn't like others' scumread of Pozzai, and doesn't especially add reasons of his own. As defenses go, it's pretty soft. It makes a lot of sense as an interaction with a partner where Nacho doesn't want to look bad when he flips but doesn't want to actively bring his lynch about.
Next, he's not even reading my posts when he's attacking me - he's just tossing Newcomb's ghost at me because he can't actually come up with reasons of his own that aren't "look at Nacho defend Killjoy!".
What's really frustrating about this quote in particular is that even you can't read my posts; this is X=Y's wall on Pozzai, it sucks because it's fat wall of not saying ***** about him and he mentions that he wants to look at his meta out of nowhere. My paragraph on him talks about how his analysis is weak and tenative but nowhere do I talk about X=Y's suspicion on Pozzai being bad, so wouldn't mind if you broke down how exactly I was defending him there.
@Nacho - His argument is that as scum he'd attempt to defend his partners rather than do what Voxx would and let them fall inside the PoE, this is something I don't disbelieve; I saw how he handled Vaimes as his partner inside Mountainous Mafia a game that finished a few weeks ago, he didn't particularly hard defend Vaimes but he certainly tried to keep him alive whenever possible and that's with someone that he knows has a weak scum game. So, it's a case of "Look at his reads" and throughout the entire game they're mirrored mine very closely, I can follow his thought process behind it and they don't look like him "Sneaking his partner inside" outside of hilariously enough probably his read on you. I'll concede that you're probably right in the second comment of his about the "Coaching" is a weak one. I find/found the meta research to come across as very genuine; as him actually suspecting Iso for meta reasons and small comments of him outside of the initial meta comment ie. Ongoing games he had in mind that he couldn't mention at the time strengthened that.
I have tried to keep partners alive in games. I have bussed the ***** out of them in others. Tom can interact however he likes with his partners; in this case, he pushed Pozzai D2 when it was written in the stars that Pozzai was going to die thanks to you and his interactions with Killjoy are mostly keeping him alive until it became clear that there's nowhere for him to go today.
You're right. His reads have mirrored yours very closely and you've townread him the entire game and for some weird reason you're still alive and I'm absolutely sure those can't be connected in any way whatsoever. What pieces of reasoning did he bring up that were strong and helped you with your process? Where's the genuine scumhunting that tom did this game other than ordering the playerlist in the order you liked?
I don't understand why you find the meta comparison and I thought it was something I brought up before - he's willing to do the work as either alignment and the actual reasoning he gave was absolutely horrible, so...? There being a mysterious post in ~ongoing games~ is something that anyone can do, don't see why it's town of him to do although hilariously enough part of my early Iso townread was due to the "townblock" post he made here which was remarkably similar to Disheritance (doubted he'd pull something like that twice in a row when parts of the playerlist overlapped) so if that's the post he's talking about then I'll laugh.
@Tom:
What ongoing game were you thinking about with the Iso post? Can you talk about it yet?
@Nacho - Yeah, I didn't like him bringing up some of Newcombs points that I didn't agree with at all, that much I'll give you. I don't think Toms been "Trying to keep KJ alive as much as he can until now", I'd argue that assessment is much better attributed to yourself than him; he's not really had much of a town read on the OphidiaSlot the entire game. As for "What reads and reasoning did he put forward that helped me", it's more a case of several instances he posted what I was thinking before I had got around to posting it myself; that's something I find rather hard for scum to fake. There's a difference between "He'll do the work as either alignment" and "The way that it transpired didn't seem like he was doing it for the cred". Lets try it this way; if Toms scum which read of his do you find "fake/forced" and why.
My argument isn't that he's been keeping Killjoy slot alive, only that he hadn't exactly been pushing it along to death.
The big takeaway about mine and killjoy's interactions is that I actually stuck my neck out for the read; I defended the ***** out of them to the point where I attacked Newcomb for not townreading them strong enough; don't see why you see those as me interacting with a partner especially when you and others have agreed with my reasoning when I've brought it up, but we'll visit that at a time when I have a little more time.
I don't have any reads that I remembered that stood out to me other than his attack on me now which stands out because of how absolutely atrocious it is; glad you're at least starting to acknowledge it, but I'm sure I'll drudge up plenty more in the future, getting fairly tired and am going to sleep soon.
I don't have any reads that I remembered that stood out to me other than his attack on me now which stands out because of how absolutely atrocious it is; glad you're at least starting to acknowledge it, but I'm sure I'll drudge up plenty more in the future, getting fairly tired and am going to sleep soon.
Fact is I still think you're more likely scum than him but I'm pretty much only lynching the person I'm confident is scum today. About to post some analysis I have, try and stay awake another ~20 minutes please?
Am really glad to see I might have made the tiniest crack in your tom read tonight too! I won't be able to post again probably until about 30 hours from now (sleep and work and then sleep again) but would love to see if Tom can make a more convincing last stand with round 2 and would also like to see Vaimes + Iso solving more if possible.
I'm not gonna convince you to lynch tom. I'm not going to convince his buddy to do it. Tom will not vote himself. That is 3 people.
So I went for his buddy since he's the more likely lynch here. Better than losing by letting myself get lynched here.
I really thikn that Tom's progression on Pozz was unnatural. He shoved other people in front of him until he couldn't anymore. Then he jumped right on when he saw your case because it was too good. How do you not see that too? I really don't know.
Yes. Other people were scummier than Pozzai. And the case was good. What is unnatural about that?
Been sitting on a lot of this since last weekend, wanted to make sure that I wasn't just convincing myself I was right before posting it but I'm pretty sure with Nachos recent attempt to get me to focus overly on Tom the Tom-Nacho world is slightly less likely and Killjoys recent posts and reads have just strengthened my scum read here.
Biggest reasons I think Killjoys scum are:
1. Ophidias comment and stance on Pozzai inside Post #228 where he states he's going to get around to and focus on reading him and myself on Feb 8th to Post #398 to him three days later on Feb 11th just stating that he can't find a definitive scum read but he thinks Pozzai/X=Y and myself are good votes while him maintaining his vote on Vaimes, a town read of his is a huge scum tell; there's scum motivation behind not joining the X=Y wagon and him voting me is voting alongside at minimum one, possibly both of his partners on me, not something scum want while voting Pozzai increases the odds he gets lynched thus the stale vote remaining on Vaimes. Similarly his explanation behind the read on Pozzai inside Post #433 is very soft and the placement of putting him squarely inside null in Post #488 has a lot of scum motivation behind it particularly given Pozzai was a PR. His question towards Pozzai inside Post #573 fits as NewbScum trying to interact with a partner. The fact that Pozzais scum read on Ophidia inside Post #660 came out of absolutely nowhere and the timing behind it was when X=Y was effectively confirmed to be lynched, it reads as attempting to distance with a partner knowing that odds are he gets lynched D2 or D3, the vote of his inside Post #673 strengthens that.
2. Ophidias progressions and reasoning behind his reads don't look natural at all and there's effectively no real thought process behind any of them; his response towards me asking reads from him inside Post #416 to him providing very surface level thoughts inside Post #433 and the comment towards me feels very pandery and when pushed for reasoning behind the reads his response inside Post #494 makes very little sense in that his scum read on Pozzai had to do with him town reading Vaimes (Someone he was voting at the time). None of these reads come across as real.
3. Killjoys replace in read on Pozzai inside Post #745 is effectively non-existent and the 'elaborated' read on him inside Post #1029 has a conclusion that doesn't really match the reasoning behind it and looks more like a distancing attempt, similarly a lot of the other reads come across as very empty and devoid of any genuine thought process behind them and the read on Nacho particularly is problematic given that's a world I can very much see being the case here, there's not really a single read I can point to and say that there's some deep actual reason inside of and while it's possible this is partially due to him dealing with a lot of content in a short period (Although it wasn't a "quick catch up") his first deeper read on Iso inside Post #1068 doesn't read genuine at all nor do his "theories" like inside Post #1218, the fact that it's all done while ignoring Vaimes/Nacho entirely makes it much worse. His focus on Tom and the persona inside Post #1239 and inside his recent posts is something I see scum do significantly more often; in that they're finding something easy to talk about that doesn't have the biggest alignment-indicative tell attached to it and the continued reasoning pushed behind the 'case' of his on Tom looks more like "Scum finding something to push on" rather than actually attempting to determine his alignment, him trying to turn Toms RVS vote/comment into something here especially looks fake and his stance on DV & Tom throughout yesterday has a lot of scum motivation behind it.
4. His reaction towards Empoofs death inside Post #1360 & Post #1361 both read very fake and find that scum often have difficulty entering into a day especially after a power role death. I find his read flips on me from "pretty much sure town" inside Post #1244 to "what if it's Tom/Regfan" inside Post #1364 is massively problematic especially given it's not a "Oh where's the scum" type situation since he'd never really looked at Nacho or Vaimes.
5. His switch to being willing to lynch Nacho before Tom inside Post #1447 is hugely scummy for a few reasons a) It's far from impossible to get his strongest scum read lynched with multiple people stating they have a scum read on Tom and considering voting him b) The reasoning behind his scum read on Nacho is reasoning that I and others have mentioned throughout the game but something he never commented on at all until being forced to go read Nachos and c) His interaction with Nacho following it and recently looks like him trying to keep it as minimal as possible which has a lot of scum motivation behind it.
Never thought I'd be the first person to vote as town in a lylo but I'm very confident in this scum read.
Newcomb dying over Regfan is slightly disconcerting, but I thought he did act a bit like a power role around Pozzai's claim so it may be meaningless. Need to look at Nacho again, but with the talk of a dichotomy between him and Newcomb it doesn't seem like a kill he would make.
@Iso have you read the game yet?
I don't like Tom bringing up the "Regfan is still alive" comment two days in a row and then doing absolutely nothing with it, just feels like he's observing it because it's something he feels like he should be observing and then depositing it because Regfan looks town as *****. Town tom and paranoia walk hand and hand closer than most married couples and so I feel like him flirting with it in this way is not really in his nature, but this is based on my personal experience with him - main take away from this point is that it's weird for him to bring it up if he's not actually considering it.
I don't have an issue with Toms Post #1191 at all and find the paranoia type comment re; me living to be more likely to come from town if anything. Happy birthday btw.
I still don't understand why Tom just saying the words "Regfan is alive this is mildly concerning" and then doing nothing with them is likely to be coming from town but my worry about Vaimes at the start of today was scummy because I was considering a world where KJ was town as well. I don't think that point that it just feels like something he's obligated to say, something that he's going through the motions with is a completely unfounded point; why do you?
Vaimes and Nacho are townie when here, but they've both left less a mark on the game than their postcounts and who they are would make me expect. Vaimes I know has been busier since the beginning of the game, and Nacho's engagement in longer phases always wavers. Nacho has a chance to be scum just because he has been pulling the strings but not committing to anything really. Vaimes would have to have a pretty specific set of partners and with Pozzai flipped scum and Newcomb flipped town, I'm not really seeing it. But I'd like stronger stances from both.
I think that Tom's approach to Vaimes here is pretty bizarre; don't like how he ends up working through Vaimes because "ah, you don't fit this specific set of partners" instead of reading his play and clearing him that way. I mean, I understand taking the Voxxicus playstyle, but I don't think it would make him strangely uncomfortable with Vaimes like it seems to be doing here.
Like, you're saying the same thing I am here. It's weird that Regfan is still alive but he's town as *****.
I've never been able to read Vaimes. I mean, I nailed him in Disinheritance in the first 10 posts. But lol spec ops. I always see people talking about how easy he is to read, especially in DLP games. But I don't really understand why. I still don't actually know how Fonti caught him in that mountainous game. I still don't know how Seppel caught him in 3 little pigs. If he's active and having fun, I always read him as town. In this game, he was doing that and tailed off. It's cause for concern. But when he's here, he's just Vaimes. And I love Vaimes.
I... doubt he could fool Newcomb so completely just based off experience. Adding that to my own opinion has been a reasonably strong townread throughout. The partner analysis was icing.
Okay, last comment re: Tom's approach to Vaimes was probably confirmation bias setting in. I just don't think that Tom the person would ever feel uncomfortable with Vaimes and go "hmm, these are the people he could be partners with so I guess he's not scum" as opposed to just solidifying his read on Vaimes unless his Vaimes relationship is several degrees different from everyone else's, but I'm remembering Regfan doing similarly at the beginning of the day so he could hypothetically just be fading into the Voxxicus persona.
Eh. No. Voxxicus is one of the people that can always read Vaimes.
This is your response to Vaimes after Vaimes mentioned that you were asking leading questions that made it seem like you were suspecting me. What did you mean by the "maybe it means something" part?
@Vaimes:
Is 140 the Pozzai interaction where he overreacted or is there a more significant reaction down the line? Because while it does seem kind of weird/off/i guess saying "Why him of all people?" doesn't seem like the degree of flail that would make me confident in ruling out partners.
195:
Ah, or here, the one post you took to appeal to Vaimes.
Because you couldn't prove that you were town in Voxxicus's body, right?
I like this post from tom towards Iso; do agree that his Pozzai read looked pretty strange at that point in time. The part of tom's play that still looks like the towniest to me is still his push on Iso when an easy mislynch was right at his fingertips, but it's entirely possible that he was pushing to mislynch Iso before Iso turned it on (since he saw he was having an off game and townreading his scumpartner).
This attack on Iso is pretty bad, might be sticking out his neck a bit too far here; he basically digs up an old scumgame where he explains his playstyle a bit and goes "ha! town!Iso would rather talk about the current game!".
I do think that the "my scumread on Iso is strong enough where I would townread X=Y if someone sold they were hard unaligned" --> "nevermind" of 524 looked town on the surface, but the scum motivation behind it seems pretty clear in retrospect. I can't help but feel this might be the part where Tom probably should have pushed back against the X=Y lynch a little harder; he was scummy, yes, but his big scumread on Iso was founded on Iso being competent and a force as town while just trying to do all the damage he could do as scum so Iso bussing the ***** out of his partner doesn't really make sense in that scenario but that "nevermind" sequence was the only place where Tom really seemed to seriously question Iso-X=Y being best friends forever.
I meant "maybe it means something". I had no scumread of you. I didn't intent them to be leading questions. I'm not really sure what was happening there.
I'm not sure what you're asking about 195. I'd think it would be easier to prove myself town in Voxx's playstyle than my own, but here I am getting pushed in lylo. So what do I know?
As for Iso, I've still never seen him suck this hard as town. I think his called 4-man team was 4 town. Iso is scummy as **** independent of meta, and far closer to his scum meta than town. He's an unCCed vig though. Shrug.
The interesting piece that seemed to have cropped up is that Tom's treatment of X=Y when he had the lock scum read on Iso seemed a bit strange. In particular, his scumread on Iso got to the type of strength where he was digging through a bunch of games and comparing two theory posts to talking about how if X=Y and Iso were proven unaligned he'd townread X=Y. I think that as town he'd probably push back harder against the X=Y lynch, as it stands, I think him going from hard scumreading Iso to being completely okay with seeing X=Y get lynched is a bit strange, and I find it worse that he never once brings up that they don't like partners or attempt to reconcile his strong scumreads on both of them.
I especially like this post, where X=Y calls him out for letting his lynch go through and posturing to push Iso more the next day, and Tom goes "if you two are both town, great point" then later proceeds to do exactly that.
It's also weird that he was one of the people to press through the X=Y lynch in the end; I understand why others would be "yeah, let's just get the flip" but tom, who had a hard scumread on Iso (that never seemed to soften), instead of doubting his scumread on X=Y, instead decides to take a leap to see if the X=Y made Iso look townier (just like part of his reasoning for lynching DV was to clear me).
Any thoughts on this?
xequalsy was scummy. We lynched him. Do you want me to feel bad about that?
I peeked ahead and Regfan already said this, but two scumreads that don't look like partners are not really an issue day 1 even playing as myself. And the very nature of this playstyle is to look for townreads and let everyone else get lynched. So... again - whats the problem?
His approach coming into this game "oh I'm so absolutely floored I'm getting suspicion! I'm so town!" is not tom as town dealing with paranoia, tom as town welcomes and expects paranoia because he loves playing scum and is proud of it; this convoluted argument of "oh I'd be better and scarier I wouldn't be the same as Voxx and all his failings" is not a good argument to lock clear him as town like he's pretending and everyone who's actually reading his posts should know it.
I was floored. I relish dealing with that ***** in my regular playstyle because I goddamn invite it. Playing like this, I don't. All my reads are plain to see, and everything I've been attacked for is just "yes I am town and that is what I said/did"
As for coaching, yes I do that a lot. Mindscrew with Killjoy and Anak, the crossover game Ghosting had me proofread his posts, Empoof and my scumchat for the mountainous game on MU was literally many times larger than the game thread. I'm not sure who I would have coached in First Law? Maybe the dude that didn't show up to scumchat for awhile and then started bussing, but you/Panther/Lissa certainly didn't need my help.
@KJ - What I want from you is very clear; if you're town I need to see that your Tom!Scum read is actually genuine; explaining it in as much detail as you can (And no, your early comments re; his playstyle isn't anywhere near enough and the "I don't use meta" excuse response towards him while you used it on Nacho earlier is a concern) since that's apparently you're strongest scum read.
@Nacho - The meta diving / comparison section of Toms Iso read is actually something I'm reading as town and while the "Not fighting the X=Y lynch while scum reading Iso" section makes some sense from you he also scum read X=Y at the time and fighting lynching one of your scum reads (Via individual play) just because they don't work with another scum read of yours isn't what you do D1.
How is the comparison bit town?
He's willing to do the work as scum so that certainly can't be it and going "you talked about yourself in this year old game as scum you're scum here" is a horrible argument so you seeing the validity isn't it either.
Tom read Iso as scum because, as town, he was insanely competent. As scum, he goes to cause as much damage to the town as possible before going down. This is a strong belief that Tom held while pushing Iso and yet he never worried about the X=Y wagon that cropped up all day and he never tried to push it back (and ended up, in the end when voting X=Y, going "hey maybe this will clear Iso!" despite feeling very strongly about the Iso read (talked about it a fair bit) and not so strongly about the X=Y read (didn't). You can't tell me it doesn't make sense for tom as town to push back against the X=Y wagon at least a little bit based on the specific nature of his Iso read.
I was fine with the xequalsy lynch because I thought he was scummy. The only person I wanted to lynch more was Iso, and that was not happening. That's all there is to it.
If there were 10 minutes until deadline, the Pozzai case wouldn't change; the only things I've read from his slot are the things at the very beginning. The X=Y thing is based on his big wall on Pozzai which didn't really seem like legitimate analysis; I suppose I'd pick it apart more thoroughly if deadline wasn't so soon but I don't like the repeated mentions of having to understand his play better before reading him because he doesn't make that comment about anyone else and I don't like how the analysis by the end of it feels so... weak? tentative? blah? I didn't like his push on Delphine, particularly the "why haven't you voted in seven pages?" bit and extended questioning after that. Recently, I didn't like his response to Iso's vote; the piece where he went "I'm voting you because you're voting me" especially because it seemed hollow and fake, didn't have the same bite as a townie who thought scum was voting them in a bull***** way would have.
Nacho is apparently scumreading Pozzai, but doesn't like others' scumread of Pozzai, and doesn't especially add reasons of his own. As defenses go, it's pretty soft. It makes a lot of sense as an interaction with a partner where Nacho doesn't want to look bad when he flips but doesn't want to actively bring his lynch about.
Next, he's not even reading my posts when he's attacking me - he's just tossing Newcomb's ghost at me because he can't actually come up with reasons of his own that aren't "look at Nacho defend Killjoy!".
What's really frustrating about this quote in particular is that even you can't read my posts; this is X=Y's wall on Pozzai, it sucks because it's fat wall of not saying ***** about him and he mentions that he wants to look at his meta out of nowhere. My paragraph on him talks about how his analysis is weak and tenative but nowhere do I talk about X=Y's suspicion on Pozzai being bad, so wouldn't mind if you broke down how exactly I was defending him there.
Yes, I'll admit to cheating and looking at Newcomb's case instead of making one of my own. I've not actually found you particularly scummy (see: ~all of my reads on you all game) but PoE hath brought me here. Any comments on the post I made on my own looking at interactions?
I don't understand why you find the meta comparison and I thought it was something I brought up before - he's willing to do the work as either alignment and the actual reasoning he gave was absolutely horrible, so...? There being a mysterious post in ~ongoing games~ is something that anyone can do, don't see why it's town of him to do although hilariously enough part of my early Iso townread was due to the "townblock" post he made here which was remarkably similar to Disheritance (doubted he'd pull something like that twice in a row when parts of the playerlist overlapped) so if that's the post he's talking about then I'll laugh.
@Tom:
What ongoing game were you thinking about with the Iso post? Can you talk about it yet?
Yes, it was Disinheritance. Though not the townblock thing. That seems fairly NAI. But his overall approach, especially early on - acting like the confident jackass that is townIso with none of the meat that backs it up - is a dead ringer for *****tyscumIso.
My argument isn't that he's been keeping Killjoy slot alive, only that he hadn't exactly been pushing it along to death.
The big takeaway about mine and killjoy's interactions is that I actually stuck my neck out for the read; I defended the ***** out of them to the point where I attacked Newcomb for not townreading them strong enough; don't see why you see those as me interacting with a partner especially when you and others have agreed with my reasoning when I've brought it up, but we'll visit that at a time when I have a little more time.
L. O. L.
Yes, others have been bigger targets. Pozzai was scummier. DV was scummier. What's your point?
Am really glad to see I might have made the tiniest crack in your tom read tonight too! I won't be able to post again probably until about 30 hours from now (sleep and work and then sleep again) but would love to see if Tom can make a more convincing last stand with round 2 and would also like to see Vaimes + Iso solving more if possible.
Good to know that your goal is to get me lynched rather than solve the game.
Toms responses towards Nacho makes me feel even better about my vote, the attitude inside them doesn't look like scum talking to a partner, think KJs pretty much always scum here.
@Regfan
#1/2 I just went over in my own interactions post, and we seem to be of one mind there (shocking, I know)
#3 The Pozzai and Nacho reads in that entrance are pretty bad, and the further reasoning was additionally meh on Nacho and looks like caving to consensus on Pozzai.
#4 Seems silly to me but you do you.
#5 Is definitely a thing. It's easy for me to see his last couple of days as "anyone want to lynch Vaimes? No? Ok how about Tom? Still no? Ok DV can die. How about Tom now? Oh maybe I better get some distancing in I'm getting called out on my crappy not-read on Nacho". There's some amount of AtE and decent tone from Killjoy, but what he's been pushing has been pretty horrific.
Still prefer Nacho, but I'm all in with you at this point anyway. Vote Killjoy
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
I just don't know what the scumteam's plan was. Rely on Nacho to carry the team?
Empoof brought up that a Pozzai/Killjoy/Nacho team always loses and I don't think much has happened that could have changed that, so ??? maybe it's just that easy.
KJ's reaction towards the votes feels far too unurgent to come from town.
@Vaimes - I don't think the likelihood of Nacho-Tom is that high at all given their recent interactions and I'm still not seeing the strong scum read you are? I'm pretty unlikely to move from KJ today and Nacho/KJ scum teams path to victory today is to get Tom mslynched which I don't see as implausible especially given you were contemplating voting there.
I think I'm just really scared of potentially letting tom get away with a scum victory and it's hard to let that go.
I get it. I really do. But look at the way I've played this game. I don't think you'd hesitate here if I was someone else. And it sucks that my meta is making you question it. But I get it.
You still have the power to ask me questions and get fully transparent answers. Whatever you need to make the right decision. Here I am.
KJ's reaction towards the votes feels far too unurgent to come from town.
@Vaimes - I don't think the likelihood of Nacho-Tom is that high at all given their recent interactions and I'm still not seeing the strong scum read you are? I'm pretty unlikely to move from KJ today and Nacho/KJ scum teams path to victory today is to get Tom mslynched which I don't see as implausible especially given you were contemplating voting there.
Ok, self analysis or whatever. But the fact that Nacho/Killjoy just want to lynch me while I'm over here trying to survive and make sure I have it right should be pretty telling. I've dropped a lot of posts in the last two days trying my best to let people read me easier, and neither of them is taking me up on it.
@Tom - Yeah, one of the things that really cemented my vote was that KJs play throughout the last few RL days has been to minimize his actual interactions with both Nacho and yourself. It's something that makes a lot of sense as scum here.
I think I'm just really scared of potentially letting tom get away with a scum victory and it's hard to let that go.
I get it. I really do. But look at the way I've played this game. I don't think you'd hesitate here if I was someone else. And it sucks that my meta is making you question it. But I get it.
You still have the power to ask me questions and get fully transparent answers. Whatever you need to make the right decision. Here I am.
Yes, that.
sigh
This is probably my last full mafia game for a while so you need to be nice to me and ensure town wins.
@Tom - Yeah, one of the things that really cemented my vote was that KJs play throughout the last few RL days has been to minimize his actual interactions with both Nacho and yourself. It's something that makes a lot of sense as scum here.
I've felt that they both want to talk about me, but not to me of late. Which is weird, because that's what I'm supposed to do in this playstyle.
I think you're being unnecessarily paranoid about Tom personally Vaimes, I mean Tom+KJ isn't impossible here and I could be wrong on him but I don't see a world where KJs town and think going KJ->Nacho wins us the game. I'm willing to talk over NachovTom more if I'm still alive tomorrow but I don't see my vote moving from KJ.
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
would appreciate vaimes & nacho posting to effectively confirm that KJ is mafia (the teams that remain after that happens that don't include killjoy is only tom+iso and that's never the case) but not hammering until i dump some final thoughts i have when i get home tonight.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
Pretty doubtful of that, your reaction towards the initial two votes and towards being put to L-1 doesn't read even remotely genuine, it's very lifeless.
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@KJ - What I want from you is very clear; if you're town I need to see that your Tom!Scum read is actually genuine; explaining it in as much detail as you can (And no, your early comments re; his playstyle isn't anywhere near enough and the "I don't use meta" excuse response towards him while you used it on Nacho earlier is a concern) since that's apparently you're strongest scum read.
@Nacho - The meta diving / comparison section of Toms Iso read is actually something I'm reading as town and while the "Not fighting the X=Y lynch while scum reading Iso" section makes some sense from you he also scum read X=Y at the time and fighting lynching one of your scum reads (Via individual play) just because they don't work with another scum read of yours isn't what you do D1.
Regfan, you glossed past this pretty hard but this is saying "Voxx sucks as scum but I don't". That's his argument here, that his play looks eerily like Voxx's would as scum but it's not because he's the MASTER POWER WOLF. No, that's a garbage argument.
This is also similarly ridiculous.
He's arguing he can't be scum with Killjoy because he would have coached Killjoy to be better while we were playing a scum game together and he wasn't doing ***** for coaching.
His approach coming into this game "oh I'm so absolutely floored I'm getting suspicion! I'm so town!" is not tom as town dealing with paranoia, tom as town welcomes and expects paranoia because he loves playing scum and is proud of it; this convoluted argument of "oh I'd be better and scarier I wouldn't be the same as Voxx and all his failings" is not a good argument to lock clear him as town like he's pretending and everyone who's actually reading his posts should know it.
How is the comparison bit town?
He's willing to do the work as scum so that certainly can't be it and going "you talked about yourself in this year old game as scum you're scum here" is a horrible argument so you seeing the validity isn't it either.
Tom read Iso as scum because, as town, he was insanely competent. As scum, he goes to cause as much damage to the town as possible before going down. This is a strong belief that Tom held while pushing Iso and yet he never worried about the X=Y wagon that cropped up all day and he never tried to push it back (and ended up, in the end when voting X=Y, going "hey maybe this will clear Iso!" despite feeling very strongly about the Iso read (talked about it a fair bit) and not so strongly about the X=Y read (didn't). You can't tell me it doesn't make sense for tom as town to push back against the X=Y wagon at least a little bit based on the specific nature of his Iso read.
Next, he's not even reading my posts when he's attacking me - he's just tossing Newcomb's ghost at me because he can't actually come up with reasons of his own that aren't "look at Nacho defend Killjoy!".
What's really frustrating about this quote in particular is that even you can't read my posts; this is X=Y's wall on Pozzai, it sucks because it's fat wall of not saying ***** about him and he mentions that he wants to look at his meta out of nowhere. My paragraph on him talks about how his analysis is weak and tenative but nowhere do I talk about X=Y's suspicion on Pozzai being bad, so wouldn't mind if you broke down how exactly I was defending him there.
I have tried to keep partners alive in games. I have bussed the ***** out of them in others. Tom can interact however he likes with his partners; in this case, he pushed Pozzai D2 when it was written in the stars that Pozzai was going to die thanks to you and his interactions with Killjoy are mostly keeping him alive until it became clear that there's nowhere for him to go today.
You're right. His reads have mirrored yours very closely and you've townread him the entire game and for some weird reason you're still alive and I'm absolutely sure those can't be connected in any way whatsoever. What pieces of reasoning did he bring up that were strong and helped you with your process? Where's the genuine scumhunting that tom did this game other than ordering the playerlist in the order you liked?
@Tom:
What ongoing game were you thinking about with the Iso post? Can you talk about it yet?
The big takeaway about mine and killjoy's interactions is that I actually stuck my neck out for the read; I defended the ***** out of them to the point where I attacked Newcomb for not townreading them strong enough; don't see why you see those as me interacting with a partner especially when you and others have agreed with my reasoning when I've brought it up, but we'll visit that at a time when I have a little more time.
Fact is I still think you're more likely scum than him but I'm pretty much only lynching the person I'm confident is scum today. About to post some analysis I have, try and stay awake another ~20 minutes please?
Yes. Other people were scummier than Pozzai. And the case was good. What is unnatural about that?
Biggest reasons I think Killjoys scum are:
1. Ophidias comment and stance on Pozzai inside Post #228 where he states he's going to get around to and focus on reading him and myself on Feb 8th to Post #398 to him three days later on Feb 11th just stating that he can't find a definitive scum read but he thinks Pozzai/X=Y and myself are good votes while him maintaining his vote on Vaimes, a town read of his is a huge scum tell; there's scum motivation behind not joining the X=Y wagon and him voting me is voting alongside at minimum one, possibly both of his partners on me, not something scum want while voting Pozzai increases the odds he gets lynched thus the stale vote remaining on Vaimes. Similarly his explanation behind the read on Pozzai inside Post #433 is very soft and the placement of putting him squarely inside null in Post #488 has a lot of scum motivation behind it particularly given Pozzai was a PR. His question towards Pozzai inside Post #573 fits as NewbScum trying to interact with a partner. The fact that Pozzais scum read on Ophidia inside Post #660 came out of absolutely nowhere and the timing behind it was when X=Y was effectively confirmed to be lynched, it reads as attempting to distance with a partner knowing that odds are he gets lynched D2 or D3, the vote of his inside Post #673 strengthens that.
2. Ophidias progressions and reasoning behind his reads don't look natural at all and there's effectively no real thought process behind any of them; his response towards me asking reads from him inside Post #416 to him providing very surface level thoughts inside Post #433 and the comment towards me feels very pandery and when pushed for reasoning behind the reads his response inside Post #494 makes very little sense in that his scum read on Pozzai had to do with him town reading Vaimes (Someone he was voting at the time). None of these reads come across as real.
3. Killjoys replace in read on Pozzai inside Post #745 is effectively non-existent and the 'elaborated' read on him inside Post #1029 has a conclusion that doesn't really match the reasoning behind it and looks more like a distancing attempt, similarly a lot of the other reads come across as very empty and devoid of any genuine thought process behind them and the read on Nacho particularly is problematic given that's a world I can very much see being the case here, there's not really a single read I can point to and say that there's some deep actual reason inside of and while it's possible this is partially due to him dealing with a lot of content in a short period (Although it wasn't a "quick catch up") his first deeper read on Iso inside Post #1068 doesn't read genuine at all nor do his "theories" like inside Post #1218, the fact that it's all done while ignoring Vaimes/Nacho entirely makes it much worse. His focus on Tom and the persona inside Post #1239 and inside his recent posts is something I see scum do significantly more often; in that they're finding something easy to talk about that doesn't have the biggest alignment-indicative tell attached to it and the continued reasoning pushed behind the 'case' of his on Tom looks more like "Scum finding something to push on" rather than actually attempting to determine his alignment, him trying to turn Toms RVS vote/comment into something here especially looks fake and his stance on DV & Tom throughout yesterday has a lot of scum motivation behind it.
4. His reaction towards Empoofs death inside Post #1360 & Post #1361 both read very fake and find that scum often have difficulty entering into a day especially after a power role death. I find his read flips on me from "pretty much sure town" inside Post #1244 to "what if it's Tom/Regfan" inside Post #1364 is massively problematic especially given it's not a "Oh where's the scum" type situation since he'd never really looked at Nacho or Vaimes.
5. His switch to being willing to lynch Nacho before Tom inside Post #1447 is hugely scummy for a few reasons a) It's far from impossible to get his strongest scum read lynched with multiple people stating they have a scum read on Tom and considering voting him b) The reasoning behind his scum read on Nacho is reasoning that I and others have mentioned throughout the game but something he never commented on at all until being forced to go read Nachos and c) His interaction with Nacho following it and recently looks like him trying to keep it as minimal as possible which has a lot of scum motivation behind it.
Never thought I'd be the first person to vote as town in a lylo but I'm very confident in this scum read.
Vote: Killjoy
Like, you're saying the same thing I am here. It's weird that Regfan is still alive but he's town as *****.
I've never been able to read Vaimes. I mean, I nailed him in Disinheritance in the first 10 posts. But lol spec ops. I always see people talking about how easy he is to read, especially in DLP games. But I don't really understand why. I still don't actually know how Fonti caught him in that mountainous game. I still don't know how Seppel caught him in 3 little pigs. If he's active and having fun, I always read him as town. In this game, he was doing that and tailed off. It's cause for concern. But when he's here, he's just Vaimes. And I love Vaimes.
I... doubt he could fool Newcomb so completely just based off experience. Adding that to my own opinion has been a reasonably strong townread throughout. The partner analysis was icing.
Eh. No. Voxxicus is one of the people that can always read Vaimes.
I meant "maybe it means something". I had no scumread of you. I didn't intent them to be leading questions. I'm not really sure what was happening there.
I'm not sure what you're asking about 195. I'd think it would be easier to prove myself town in Voxx's playstyle than my own, but here I am getting pushed in lylo. So what do I know?
As for Iso, I've still never seen him suck this hard as town. I think his called 4-man team was 4 town. Iso is scummy as **** independent of meta, and far closer to his scum meta than town. He's an unCCed vig though. Shrug.
xequalsy was scummy. We lynched him. Do you want me to feel bad about that?
I peeked ahead and Regfan already said this, but two scumreads that don't look like partners are not really an issue day 1 even playing as myself. And the very nature of this playstyle is to look for townreads and let everyone else get lynched. So... again - whats the problem?
I was floored. I relish dealing with that ***** in my regular playstyle because I goddamn invite it. Playing like this, I don't. All my reads are plain to see, and everything I've been attacked for is just "yes I am town and that is what I said/did"
As for coaching, yes I do that a lot. Mindscrew with Killjoy and Anak, the crossover game Ghosting had me proofread his posts, Empoof and my scumchat for the mountainous game on MU was literally many times larger than the game thread. I'm not sure who I would have coached in First Law? Maybe the dude that didn't show up to scumchat for awhile and then started bussing, but you/Panther/Lissa certainly didn't need my help.
I was fine with the xequalsy lynch because I thought he was scummy. The only person I wanted to lynch more was Iso, and that was not happening. That's all there is to it.
Yes, I'll admit to cheating and looking at Newcomb's case instead of making one of my own. I've not actually found you particularly scummy (see: ~all of my reads on you all game) but PoE hath brought me here. Any comments on the post I made on my own looking at interactions?
Yes, it was Disinheritance. Though not the townblock thing. That seems fairly NAI. But his overall approach, especially early on - acting like the confident jackass that is townIso with none of the meat that backs it up - is a dead ringer for *****tyscumIso.
L. O. L.
Yes, others have been bigger targets. Pozzai was scummier. DV was scummier. What's your point?
Good to know that your goal is to get me lynched rather than solve the game.
Toms responses towards Nacho makes me feel even better about my vote, the attitude inside them doesn't look like scum talking to a partner, think KJs pretty much always scum here.
#1/2 I just went over in my own interactions post, and we seem to be of one mind there (shocking, I know)
#3 The Pozzai and Nacho reads in that entrance are pretty bad, and the further reasoning was additionally meh on Nacho and looks like caving to consensus on Pozzai.
#4 Seems silly to me but you do you.
#5 Is definitely a thing. It's easy for me to see his last couple of days as "anyone want to lynch Vaimes? No? Ok how about Tom? Still no? Ok DV can die. How about Tom now? Oh maybe I better get some distancing in I'm getting called out on my crappy not-read on Nacho". There's some amount of AtE and decent tone from Killjoy, but what he's been pushing has been pretty horrific.
Still prefer Nacho, but I'm all in with you at this point anyway.
Vote Killjoy
Really hoping Vaimes actually follows through and gets to this game today.
Only dreams now.
I'll respond to Reg's thing tonight.
Some squishy tonal things at EoD don't really compare to your reasons.
I think I'm just really scared of potentially letting tom get away with a scum victory and it's hard to let that go.
Empoof brought up that a Pozzai/Killjoy/Nacho team always loses and I don't think much has happened that could have changed that, so ??? maybe it's just that easy.
The moment DV flipped town.
@Vaimes - I don't think the likelihood of Nacho-Tom is that high at all given their recent interactions and I'm still not seeing the strong scum read you are? I'm pretty unlikely to move from KJ today and Nacho/KJ scum teams path to victory today is to get Tom mslynched which I don't see as implausible especially given you were contemplating voting there.
I get it. I really do. But look at the way I've played this game. I don't think you'd hesitate here if I was someone else. And it sucks that my meta is making you question it. But I get it.
You still have the power to ask me questions and get fully transparent answers. Whatever you need to make the right decision. Here I am.
Ok, self analysis or whatever. But the fact that Nacho/Killjoy just want to lynch me while I'm over here trying to survive and make sure I have it right should be pretty telling. I've dropped a lot of posts in the last two days trying my best to let people read me easier, and neither of them is taking me up on it.
sigh
This is probably my last full mafia game for a while so you need to be nice to me and ensure town wins.
I've felt that they both want to talk about me, but not to me of late. Which is weird, because that's what I'm supposed to do in this playstyle.
It's the FIRST THING you've heard TODAY outside of that DAMNED TICKING.
*TICK*
VOTECOUNT
Killjoy - 2 (RegFan, tomsloger)
Not Voting - 4 (Vaimes, Iso, Killjoy, Nachomamma8)
#yolo
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
2 people viewing the thread, let's see if we catch any scum hammers
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
Vote Killjoy
I'm ready to be wrong
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
*holds breath*