KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
Iso is an unCCed vig. As much as it physically pains me to put him on top, if he is scum, we lose but I get to say I was right all along and blame the setup. Just assume I also threw a crack at how much he's sucked this game and how bad the... whatever. Vig.
Regfan has been my top town for a super long time, for good reason. And frankly, with the way this day has played out he can't be scum short of some absolutely insane Reg/Vaimes world.
Vaimes is a level below, but remains a pretty solid read. I'm more or less ok with his paranoia of me right now, especially when backed up with a votecount and our entire history telling him not to trust me. #586 is a pretty good post about Ophidia's play, and I think makes them pretty unlikely to be partners. He's got some odd reads on Nacho, but lord knows I have too this game. And his suggestion to just lynch Nacho and deal with me vs Killjoy later would seem to make that unlikely. His interaction with Newcomb starting before but culminating around #785 seems... out of his range when he knows Newcomb is town.
Ophidia was pretty meh. Decent tone and/or sassiness at times. But Vaimes is right that he's never played up being new/language barrier before. I hate reading off that, but it's a pretty large part of his game. Killjoy's reads around me/DV don't make much sense. And, of course, lack of interaction with Nacho. A couple of his "well I guess I just suck then" type of AtE posts I really just want to either townread or ignore, but they also don't really match with the confidence he's showing on his Tomscum narrative. Especially how much of what he didn't like was playstyle and then acknowledging I was doing a pretty decent impression but that not meaning... anything at all to him?
For Nacho, I think I'm agreeing with a lot of Newcomb's case in #945. Active lurking, defending Pozzai, politely staying out of the way while town got lynched, some amount of alternate facts/revisionist history. The fact he's been so adamant on townreading the Killjoy slot with not a lot of actual workings. The case on DV was good, but that being a mislynch changes things a bit. His PoE landing him on nothing that looks like it could be the scumteam and the fact that I actually cannot see a team that doesn't involve him. I'd like to hear his read on me explained a little better, possibly involving our recent experience of being scum together for 5 days in that MU game. I'm not sure I can take much from it since he was so focused on being someone else but he just got to see me powerwolf pretty hard sans meta.
tomsloger Grapefruit21
Empoof
Newcomb
xequalsy
DV
Iso
Regfan
Vaimes
Killjoy
Nachomamma8 Pozzai
Just poking through Newcomb's reads on Nacho and Vaimes, Regfan's team eliminations, reads on me, and just a complete lack of interaction with or about eachother, the Nacho/Killjoy team basically stares right back at me and makes sense. It feels like that's what my PoE has been telling me since, like, day 3. And I keep wanting to read things to maybe find something different but nothing else makes quite fits.
I want to see Killjoy finally talk about Nacho. I'd like to see Nacho's reasoning on the slot all in one place. I'd like to read through one more time just in case I missed something. But I think this is it.
I have a slight preference for lynching Nacho over Killjoy, because he still... technically works with Vaimes. I don't think it's likely, but that's the only other thing it could be. Yes I saw Regfan eliminating it as a possibility, but I can't quite do it. It is, however, several orders of magnitude less likely.
Pretty disappointed that KJ didn't get around to it today; know that losing posts is a thing but I'd have settled with a quick version of what he got from it.
@Tom - I'm finding KJ's confidence level re; pushing you and his reasoning based around it and claiming not to ever use meta while at the same time having effectively town meta read Nacho and never bothered to look into him until pushed for it to be a huge scum tell here. Can you elaborate on the "Defending Pozzai" section from Nacho because I've gone through his ISO a few times now and I think the fact he didn't actually start pushing Pozzai until D2 is a scum tell and a concern I've had with him for a lot of the game but I didn't ever really see him 'defend' Pozzai inside his ISO so you throwing that out there doesn't make a lot of sense. Your focus slightly moreson on Nacho than anyone else and directing yourself to be more inclined to vote there does make me feel a bit better about you guys not being the team here.
I've still got a bit of reading I need to do myself and want to hear Nacho re; his current scum team thoughts & opinion on KJ and similarly KJ's stance on Nacho as well as a better elaboration on his Tom read. Some more thoughts from Vaimes & Iso would be nice as well but at this point I think my strongest scum read in the game is Killjoy and think we're probably dealing with KJ+Nacho.
Re: Pozzai:
I agree with (Regfan?) that Pozzai's early focus seems to be strange; in 125, questioning Delphi's approach to Regfan's mindmeld point is weird, and trying to use Tom's playstyle change as a point against him seems like something that's extraordinarily anti-fun or scummy. To answer your question, I would qualify this as Tom's "normal" play. You seem to imply that he's adopting this playstyle as scum in order to find new reasons to townread people, but even if the style of scumhunting and maybe a difference in mindset has changed (and only barely), the reads that he's brought up so far seem perfectly reasonable ones to have. I could understand your push better if you were criticizing him for specific reads, but attacking him for weird reads before he's given any is silly.
The Pozzai section boils down to negating Regfan's scumread of Pozzai as silly and/or hasty. I don't really disagree with the point he's making there, as I had a similar thought about Reg's Pozzai read at the time, but I dislike the way Nacho just blunts a scumread and doesn't advance past that, on either Nacho or Reg.
If there were 10 minutes until deadline, the Pozzai case wouldn't change; the only things I've read from his slot are the things at the very beginning. The X=Y thing is based on his big wall on Pozzai which didn't really seem like legitimate analysis; I suppose I'd pick it apart more thoroughly if deadline wasn't so soon but I don't like the repeated mentions of having to understand his play better before reading him because he doesn't make that comment about anyone else and I don't like how the analysis by the end of it feels so... weak? tentative? blah? I didn't like his push on Delphine, particularly the "why haven't you voted in seven pages?" bit and extended questioning after that. Recently, I didn't like his response to Iso's vote; the piece where he went "I'm voting you because you're voting me" especially because it seemed hollow and fake, didn't have the same bite as a townie who thought scum was voting them in a bull***** way would have.
Nacho is apparently scumreading Pozzai, but doesn't like others' scumread of Pozzai, and doesn't especially add reasons of his own. As defenses go, it's pretty soft. It makes a lot of sense as an interaction with a partner where Nacho doesn't want to look bad when he flips but doesn't want to actively bring his lynch about.
I'll be posting more thoroughly later, but Newcomb not being able to read my posts is one of the reasons I would have been more than happy to leave him alive and mislynch him as scum; notice how that first post is actually completely agreeing with Regfan's push and the second is me saying that I don't like X=Y's wall on Pozzai which wasn't him scumreading him (it was a muddled half-dead at best) because it said and did absolutely nothing.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
@Tom - I remember speaking with Newcomb about that first post, he'd read Nachos post very incorrectly; Nacho was agreeing with my scum read on Pozzai there, he then moves on to direct the rest of the post at Pozzai, not myself so he wasn't attempting to "Defend him" there at all, the second one I could maybe see.
@Vaimes - You going to be around today? Would like your overall read on the Ophidia/KJ slot from the whole game because I'm more inclined to vote there than anywhere else today.
So I also saw what tom posted above re: Nacho's defense of Pozz. I agree with it.
I also think that his tone and such is awkward for dealing with his major scumread: In 693 He has a very confident and declaritive tone; "Pozz is almost certainly the lynch today" but comes in later with 771 and suddenly he's onto Newcomb pushing really hard in 790. This can certainly be a scum counterwagoning for their partner. Like, to go from being so certain that Pozz is scum to kinda liking something he did and all of a sudden he's not the scummiest anymore (which btw is a problem I had with tom's posting re: Pozz if you'll recall) just doesn't seem natural. Like he is looking for a reason to find someone else scummy.
Then there's this series of posts: 1092 and 1099. For someone who he's scumreading, he's being really patient with him. I feel like he'd be a little more annoyed that Pozz just wasn't claiming.
I'm not comfortable with lynching him without a CC.
At this point, if we lynch him and he flips town, we're dropped in MyLo with no scum lynched and looking like absolute idiots and the game is pretty much ****ed. If there isn't a CC and we have Pozzai confirmed town, we have plenty of time left in the day to take a step back and find a better lynch.
If he's scum, then yes, it sucks that we have a PR that needs to out and won't get a protect off tonight, but this isn't exactly something that seems worth the risk considering we'd probably have the protective claim tomorrow anyways.
This sounds... just like... fake. The language seems awkeard and it feels like he doesn't actually care about the gamestate doing that. Also, he seems heavily invested in getting people off of Pozz here.
And his advocating that a proitective role out so early is weird as well. As Doc, I wouldn't cc ever until mass claim time, because you're too important alive. I think that's a common sentiment, actually.
So, yeah Nacho is probably scum with Pozzai.
I would obviously be more comfy with a Nacho lynch today if only so I have more time to convince you guys of Tom being the bad guy. I thought I articulated it well but meh.
And re: meta: I don't use it for another reason too: I almost never remember it. It's always "I kinda recall him doing this" or "I think he had this tone" or "I don't THINK this is out of the ordinary". So, on top of people being aware of their metas and mimicing them to appear town, that is why I don't do it.
And with regard to Nacho and meta: Not only did I think this is how he was in Mind Screw, it was also a generally townie thing to do: being playful and analytical at the same time. Then he started active lurking and Pozz, Iso, and tom came up so I kinda... forgot he was here. I never reanalyized his alignment since those first posts.
Also, I think that Winterfell will tell you a lot about me. Also I think the endgame of STMU3, where I tinfoil like crazy. I get really indecisive when the game hangs on the line.
I don't use meta but other's do. So, you can check out my posting and see what that says about me.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
@KJ - I can understand and agree with several parts of your analysis on Nacho inside the above post, my biggest issue with it by a large margin however is the "I forgot he was here" attitude and excuse behind it. It's something I'm having a lot of difficulty buying given I and others asked you about your thoughts on him and/or thoughts on Non-Tom players several times and you constantly shrugged it off and continued focusing on Tom so the turnaround now to "Nachos posts here look fake", "He defended Pozzai", "His reaction towards the claim looks bad" feels more like appeasing us rather than having a genuine read.
As for the "I have more time to convince you guys of Tom being the bad guy. I thought I articulated it well but meh." I'd like you to go into your reasoning behind Tom being scum outside of having to rely on using his playstyle as a scum-tell (Because it's absolutely not) and your interaction reasons with Tom-Pozzai seem weak so if there's more to it I'd like to hear it.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
I didn't believe it before, but moving from me being a townread of yours to me being the scumread that you want to lynch first (over tom, your main suspicion of yesterday and today) so you have more time to convince everyone else is ******* bull*****, especially considering that you talked about how paranoid and indecisive you are in LyLo situations and now suddenly you've put that tom scumread aside to hop on the lynch Nacho train?
Finally willing to concede that you might be wrong on KJ? Really do want those thoughts from you very soon. Really any more thoughts & thought process from you would be appreciated.
I'll do that and answer things when I get home. You are confbiasing me though I think given you seen to think everything I do is scummy.
I'm happy to wait; Nacho put my issue with your change in read there fairly well above, it's not the scum read on him that I have issues with, it's the reasoning behind it being reasoning that others had put forward throughout the game and you just acknowledging it now right after we suggested you being scum together, the fact that it somehow overtakes your strong scum read on Tom feels very unnatural.
It doesn't overtake anything. I never said not implied that. I'm just in a space that no one wants to lynch Tom currently. It's gotta be Tom nacho. So, lynching nacho is the next best thing.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
So part of this playstyle is fastidious rereading after every flip and being ready to reevaluate at any time, but everything I look at is just reenforcing what my PoE has been telling me forever. Even as I townread Nacho for admittedly weak reasons, my subconscious was fighting against it apparently by asking Vaimes leading questions.
Pozzai/Nacho/Killphidia just sort of makes sense. Like, I've believed Regfan and Vaimes to be town the whole game. Iso (heavy sigh) is as close to confirmed town as we can get right now via mod/setupgaming. The two remaining have not had memorable interactions. And both wanted to lynch me today... in lylo... exactly when I'm a needed mislynch. While I think I've been super town, I guess I can acknowledge I'm closer to my scumrange than Vaimes or Regfan are to theirs. So obviously scum need me to be the lynch. (Thus the minor bout of Vaimes having the game of his life paranoia, but I'm more or less over it now.)
So. @Regfan
If you're comfortable enough with your setup research to absolutely clear Iso, I'm comfortable enough to make that my final decision.
It doesn't overtake anything. I never said not implied that. I'm just in a space that no one wants to lynch Tom currently. It's gotta be Tom nacho. So, lynching nacho is the next best thing.
This isn't true though, Vaimes has a scum read on Tom and has stated he's leaning towards voting there, really the whole change from you just looks very fake.
\So. @Regfan
If you're comfortable enough with your setup research to absolutely clear Iso, I'm comfortable enough to make that my final decision.
I don't see it being a 9:3, closed 12 player setup where the only town power we have is a Tracker+Doctor against a Roleblocker. There's typically a lot more power than that inside these basics and a 1-shot vig makes a lot of sense with that setup, it actually looks very similar to the last two basics that Wheat hosted so yeah I'd say Isos town here. Him also suggesting a NL (Which is a horrible move here) after having claimed and been cleared from it is something he wouldn't do as scum since he wouldn't be able to explain not dying, I can see him doing it as town if he thinks he's having a bad game though.
Vaimes was scumreading tom, I was scumreading tom, Iso is scumreading tom.
And yet KJ goes "yep, we don't have the votes, full steam ahead on the Nacho lynch bois".
Regfan, I'll likely spend a very large chunk of time dumping thoughts in my thread as it's my preferred method of doing heavy lifting in games; I'm likely to do this tomorrow instead of today for raisins although I'm very obviously keeping up in thread enough to pester people when they post obviously horrible things.
I know that you're on full tilt mode because "OH GOD NACHO ISN'T POSTING RIGHT NOW" but all I need you to do is breathe deep and give me some room, I'll shatter your crappy worldview soon enough, don't worry. While I'm baffled you're still scumreading me, I'm more amused than worried and am pretty sure that either I'll fix your read on me soon enough or I'll have Tammy mentor you for next game so you can learn what town-Nacho looks like.
And where is Vaimes, Reg? Where is Iso? Those are the two people who are scumreading tom. Are they here, trying to get him lynched with me? No. They're not. I think that maybe some people in the game will wanna lynch Nacho since they seem to think he's my buddy. So lets do that. Then maybe I can convince you of tom's scumminess over Night. Maybe that can happen. IDK. Maybe you'll just scumread me for that too.
So you think that, after being asked to form an opinion of Nacho in lylo... my forming an opinion of Nacho in lylo is scummy because my change of opinion seemed fake? Seriously? What did you expect to happen?
And you're scumreading me because I parked a townread on him early in the game and forgot about him because Iso and tom existed. Sorry, let me just retroactively change that for you.
And btw, that's literally what I'm accusing tom of. Why do I accuse tom of that if I, myself, am doing it with my buddy? Why does that seem like a thing I'm doing?
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
I'm mostly done the reading I wanted to finish up, just a little to go but just about everything I'm reading is pointing towards KJ being mafia and the lynch today; I can see his avoidance on Nacho & his recent flip throughout the game making plenty of sense as scum together attempting to distance just after the possibility of them being a scum team was mentioned, seems like the most likely situation. Can also see the flip being due to seeing an opportunity to cease bussing Tom and instead push for a mslynch although that seems less likely, struggle to see the timing and reasoning behind his read change coming from town at all.
@Vaimes & Iso - If you think I might be wrong on KJ would appreciate you letting me know asap as I'm fairly likely to vote there pretty soon.
I know that you're on full tilt mode because "OH GOD NACHO ISN'T POSTING RIGHT NOW" but all I need you to do is breathe deep and give me some room, I'll shatter your crappy worldview soon enough, don't worry. While I'm baffled you're still scumreading me, I'm more amused than worried and am pretty sure that either I'll fix your read on me soon enough or I'll have Tammy mentor you for next game so you can learn what town-Nacho looks like.
The bolded is just cruel, sure Tammy has multiple 'talents' but none of them involve the game of mafia and how to scumhunt! I'm fine waiting until tomorrow if you have time to get around to elaborating on everything then but if you're town here I need to see it because there's several issues I have with your play throughout this game one of the larger ones being your town read on KJ and while it's great that you've come around to agreeing that he's probably mafia here and while it's nice that your reasoning behind it recently mirrors my dislike of his posting I can see it easily being you attempting to distancing with him.
And where is Vaimes, Reg? Where is Iso? Those are the two people who are scumreading tom. Are they here, trying to get him lynched with me? No. They're not. I think that maybe some people in the game will wanna lynch Nacho since they seem to think he's my buddy. So lets do that. Then maybe I can convince you of tom's scumminess over Night. Maybe that can happen. IDK. Maybe you'll just scumread me for that too.
How do Vaimes & Isos activity have anything to do with the fact they scum read Tom? They still have a vote at the end of the day meaning if you're actually town here and Toms mafia then it's not "impossible" to lynch him; You have multiple people here stating they're willing and likely to vote Tom here and it's not like I'm putting my fingers in my ears and refusing to listen to logic so your change of stance here really doesn't make sense and just feels like you're trying to pander to me rather than actually get your stronger scum read lynched. So again, if you're town I'd like to focus on explaining the Tom read without using his style.
So you think that, after being asked to form an opinion of Nacho in lylo... my forming an opinion of Nacho in lylo is scummy because my change of opinion seemed fake? Seriously? What did you expect to happen?
I have two big issues with the read from you 1) It's based on reasoning and logic people have brought up throughout the game, thus information you'd have read but it didn't 'mean anything to you' until now which feels contrived and 2) It's the fact that after town reading him you've moved to wanting to actually vote him over your scum read and this change all occurred over a very short period of time. Had you come out of reading Nachos ISO and had some original commentary about his play rather than restating what others have said I'd have found it much more genuine but that's not even remotely what happened.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
So I signed in to my other account and put all townies on ignore and read through the game again (just Nacho/Ophidia/Killjoy/Pozzai and myself/Iso because you can't ignore mods). Trying to sanity check myself one last time. And the interactions among those slots is just...
I feel that from a scum mindset, scum!nacho might be too cautious to make this post. Could be wrong tho, since the analysis is from a noob mindset. More experienced players should be able to play more recklessly.
Re tom being opportunistic: just because a read is well progressed doesn't mean it isn't opportunistic. Giving a town read doesn't advance the game state, and it's main purpose would be to try and earn town cred and it's more important to be town read as scum than town.
I also just really don't like the way that knowing I've played four games was enough for him, without knowing anything about those games. Meta disclosure I've not rolled scum yet, but the first thing I would do is be paranoid and lean on meta. Gives me an out to avoid actually reading the game. I get that people are town reading me for that, so I won't argue it's a town tell, I just don't like how quickly tom ran with that read. I had a grand total of 4 posts when tom dropped that read.
What you're missing is the very purpose of this playstyle I've stolen the way I play is to find town.
A town circle is a very powerful thing, and you are in it now.
Why 'steal' another person's playstyle, why aren't you 'playing yourself' ?
We are, but by suggesting that it's his adapted persona that likes to create towncircles he indicates that it's not his own, therefore a weaker part or at the very least a less well polished part of his playstyle.
It seems more of a "this gives me an excuse to call people town which I wouldn't normally have" way of adressing the game.
1. Most likely Tom. Nacho's early posts give me a more relaxed town vibe, while Regfan's attack on me seems warranted, as I did not answer Vaimes' question and that was pretty scummy for me to make that post. I don't really have any idea about tom now, so he is likely the best candidate.
How was Newcomb's lack of content different from anyone else who fluff posted in RVS - I assume you didn't scumread everyone from that section?
Newcomb's lack of content extended to page 2, while others stopped early.
Ehh. Nacho and I were both still meme'ing/fluffing on page two. Was it especially scummy for Newcomb for some reason, or are/were you scumreading me/Nacho as well? If you find that behavior to be scummy, why not pressure me or Nacho next?
Equally, why are you planning to examine Pozzai and Reg next? Names out of a hat, or are there specific reasons? I know that those are a lot of questions, but I'm trying to see in your head a bit and I'm having a hard time with it.
I see all fluff posting as a weak scum read, but since I am asked to analyze Newcomb specifically, I have to point that out. Yes, I scumread all of you based on that. But if everybody is doing that, I don't think fluff posting is going to outweigh town tells, which you and Nacho both exhibit.
I am planning to examine pozzai and reg because pozzai is seen as scum by multiple people and is rather easy to read, while I did not really have a feel about reg's alignment, so I have to read again and get a feel of it.
Yes, because I don't really see fluffing all that commonly, and in all of my previous games players don't fluff half as much as this game. Fluffing is bad because you are avoiding posting content and distracting the town. Nacho said this earlier and I am supportive of him.
Hmm, okay. So if I told you that Newcomb plays elsewhere where fluff day1 is more accepted for a longer period of time, and as a result of this that particular point of yours is invalid, does that make him a firm/strong town for you, or is he still a lean? (assuming you accept my premise in regards to fluff on other sites)
Re: Pozzai:
I agree with (Regfan?) that Pozzai's early focus seems to be strange; in 125, questioning Delphi's approach to Regfan's mindmeld point is weird, and trying to use Tom's playstyle change as a point against him seems like something that's extraordinarily anti-fun or scummy. To answer your question, I would qualify this as Tom's "normal" play. You seem to imply that he's adopting this playstyle as scum in order to find new reasons to townread people, but even if the style of scumhunting and maybe a difference in mindset has changed (and only barely), the reads that he's brought up so far seem perfectly reasonable ones to have. I could understand your push better if you were criticizing him for specific reads, but attacking him for weird reads before he's given any is silly.
~snip~
RE: Ophidia's 149:
As a general rule I don't like it when people try to blame not contributing on factors like "people are talking about meta too much!" or "this is a theme game; I've only played normals" and feel like it's something that I see coming from scum more often than normal. That being said, I'm not a soulless dictator like Tammy so I absolutely understand getting lost occasionally; Ophidia, a piece of advice that I'd give you is to not necessarily focus on providing analysis (even though most people will be pressing you for it) and instead ask questions to clarify things if possible. You can't provide good analysis if you don't understand what's going on, and if you try to provide a bunch of commentary on things you don't really understand, then you probably won't find anything ground-breaking and people probably won't be able to see that you're making a genuine effort when providing it because it will come off awkward and strange.
I actually agree with the Ophidia comment that you pointed out; missed it on first brush. I don't think that it's necessarily that scum would write it and then erase it; I think that nervous scum tend to view that nervousness as scummy and try not to include it in their posts (hence lower risk posting) whereas nervous town feel more obligated to express it since it's part of their approach to the game.
~snip~
I like Ophidia's response to Newcomb about Grapefruit a lot, actually. I think that if Ophidia was scum here, they would fit the "nervous low risk scum" archetype and scumreading the guy that pretty much everyone has townread so far is a pretty good look for going against the grain points alone. Continuing off something Newcomb mentioned, think "skittish" scum is a better way to put it and pushing back against that read doesn't really fit "skittish" so well.
Vaimes, Grapefruit, Ophidia are all shaping up to be decent townreads for me so far, am guessing Regfan will join them shortly based on what I've skimmed from him on bathroom breaks but want to read his posts more closely before I slot him in as town.
~snip~
Pozzai is the only other thing resembling a scumread but it's literally only because of the tom thing and nothing else so expecting to see a little more from him when I can scrape together some time.
Newcomb, if there was an elevator closing on you I'd tell you to hold your arm out because the sensors on those things are pretty good and even if it tries to close on you it's not like it would actually hurt a whole lot.
If there were 10 minutes until deadline, the Pozzai case wouldn't change; the only things I've read from his slot are the things at the very beginning. The X=Y thing is based on his big wall on Pozzai which didn't really seem like legitimate analysis; I suppose I'd pick it apart more thoroughly if deadline wasn't so soon but I don't like the repeated mentions of having to understand his play better before reading him because he doesn't make that comment about anyone else and I don't like how the analysis by the end of it feels so... weak? tentative? blah? I didn't like his push on Delphine, particularly the "why haven't you voted in seven pages?" bit and extended questioning after that. Recently, I didn't like his response to Iso's vote; the piece where he went "I'm voting you because you're voting me" especially because it seemed hollow and fake, didn't have the same bite as a townie who thought scum was voting them in a bull***** way would have.
I liked that Ophidia talked about trying a different style because he keeps clearing himself in absurd ways as town and instead ends up feeling like a town decoration as opposed to someone solving the game and being useful, felt like a genuine sentiment and I'm not sure that he would try to use it to clear himself as scum.
Pozzai is scumread by people whom I have a townread on, but his posts are mostly a null-tell to me, which is why I am asking for reasons why he is scummy. Reg, you are on the list because of the same reason Pozzai is on the list, but you appear townier than him so unless you do something really bad, I won't vote you over Pozzai/x=y.
I am not trying to lynch Vaimes. His behavior seems town enough to me, as he is poking people with questions and is a universal townread at this point in the game.
Which questions of Vaimes have you liked?
These early interactions are marked by Ophidia townreading Nacho for being relaxed, Nacho launching into rambling reasons that Ophidia is town, Pozzai mostly ignoring both of them except to talk about my meta with Nacho and Newcomb's meta with Ophidia, Ophidia acknowledging that Pozzai could be scum and is suspected by people but not going beyond that in any way, and Nacho scumreading Pozzai for exactly one thing and not acknowledging anything else.
It's pretty... meh.
Then comes Nacho's catchup in #479, 483, 484, and 486.
Quote from Nacho »
I don't think Ophidia's "Ask me questions so I can learn to analyze" is particularly alignment indicative; I've seen scum plenty of times as townies or partners to guide their posting by making people hold their hands to get there, which is mostly what bothered me about Ophidia's opening. I very much agree that coming out of the guided Newcomb tour of Grapefruit with a scum read when he was universal town is a strong town tell; Ophidia if scum would be the type who didn't really know how to produce novel content of his own and pushing back against the universal townread there goes against that 100%. It also might be silly on my part, but I actually thought that his response to Vaimes's scum QT comment was pretty town-looking; I think that's a situation that is awkward to be put in as scum and requires a good confidence as scum that I'm not quite sure he has yet based on general new-looking posting and Tom's commentary on his scumgame in the Assassins in the Palace game.
As to your uneasiness with my approach to you earlier, what did you expect my approach would evolve into after the initial joke push?
What about your posts to that point were town enough to be outside of your scumrange? What should I have picked up on that I didn't?
Quote from Nacho »
Is the only thing you disliked from Ophidia at this point was the empty RVS vote early on?
What do you think of the reasons I've brought up for my Ophidia town read (and why it should be stronger than just a weak town read?).
Quote from Nacho »
Can't say I like [Typhrous'] Ophidia push in 211, either; the idea that someone is saying that they're new a bunch of times so they won't be held to the standards that experienced players are being held to seems kind of silly? I'd have less issue if Typhrous took the angle that Ophidia was overly nervous and that's what causes the "I'm a newbie!" mantra everywhere but this angle seems like a pretty harsh stretch.
Quote from Nacho »
I do think that it makes sense for Ophi to be self-conscious especially in this playerlist which not only is hyped up frequently but also has a bunch of walls flying around which makes the game a lot denser and harder to engage for people uncomfortable with the style.
Quote from Nacho »
I like that you zeroed in on the same thing about Pozzai that I did; as of right now (haven't read anything else from him) seems like the most compelling reason to vote him.
Quote from Nacho »
Will also point out that Pozzai not understanding that Tom was mimicking someone else wasn't the scummy part of his posting and don't really remember Regfan making that point although I could completely be wrong; the scummy part of Pozzai's interaction with Tom was the fact that he tried to use changing his playstyle against him even though it's something that obviously isn't scummy at all.
Pozzai, I don't understand what you were trying to say in 235; why wouldn't you pay attention to Regfan early day 1 and how is page 5 not early day 1...?
I don't like his attack in 236, either; while I don't mind the video mafia reference (it's silly but it's something people do), "I keep my cards close to my chest" is nowhere near a rebuttal for "your attempts to sort people right now don't look genuine".
Quote from Nacho »
Re: Pozzai's 262:
Tom saying that he would focus on a town circle doesn't mean that he wasn't going to have scumreads period, and nothing Tom has said or implies really suggests that he's going to avoid giving scumreads so your criticism here continues to seem ridiculous. The fact that you're pushing it as brazenly as you are and Delphi saying she has similar thoughts take off the edge to this point somewhat but I still don't like that your response to Regfan completely missed his point and saw you continuously trying to claim that you holding your reads close to your chest completely nullified you having a weird entrance and I don't like that you're hyperfocusing on the "lack of reads" point and trying to ignore everything else.
Quote from Nacho »
Tom's wall is a pretty good one; I think he brings up an interesting point re: Pozzai in that he's weirdly out of touch with the game despite seeming caught up and seeming decently engaged.
Quote from Nacho »
-I don't understand why Pozzai's response to Regfan was loose and silly enough to be a towntell whereas his push on Tom was a scumtell unless I'm missing a section of your reasoning somewhere. I think both instances are examples of Pozzai's approaches just not being believable. In his later interactions with Regfan (I won't dig up the post now but it's roundabout the initial reaction), he also made a big deal of Regfan saying that he found the lack of reads troubling while glossing over the main part of Regfan's point; I find that pretty concerning as it's something that I find both hilarious and effective when I'm scum (hammer at a weak point in a case while ignoring the gist of it). I think that calling you/Regfan not w/w because of the clumsy interaction was strange, yes, but it seems to be the same concept behind your reasoning for townreading Pozzai for the Regfan push.
Quote from Nacho »
I didn't think his commentary on Pozzai was bad; lazy, sure, but I definitely wouldn't say bad. The interesting part of what Tom brought up re: Pozzai is that Pozzai has enough posts/has been around enough to be engaged and yet his overall efforts to engage with the gamestate are pretty piss poor, which could have something to do with his "keeping cards close to his chest" thing but also aren't backed up by his questions seeming to lead to anywhere useful.
More of the same with Ophidia, wordy townreads based on fairly little.
The Pozzai bits are some parts cozying up to Regfan about reading Pozzai together (the fact that he says they "zeroed in on the same thing" after earlier saying it was the only thing of Pozzai's he'd seen points me towards that being intentional), some parts continuing to talk to Pozzai about me, and some parts a reasonably hard push. Like, yeah this could be a bus. I don't think there's anything specifically pointing at that besides the Regfan cozying, but he wants to lynch xequalsy more anyway.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Okay so you have a null read on Pozzais posts but he's a scum read because Vaimes and myself are voting him but you're not town reading me so your reasoning behind scum reading Pozzai is SOLELY that Vaimes is scum reading him, is this correct? If so please explain how a singular town read of yours voting someone leads towards you scum reading the player especially given you've stated your playstyle change is to make your own reads.
I still believe that you are much more town than pozzai, and vaimes is a strong townread whom I also trust as a player. I want to formulate my own reads but other players will probably make better decisions than I, so in the near future, if I am the single person on a wagon, I will probably go with the popular opinion than pushing that wagon. Aside from that, Pozzai's recent posts were either fluffy or weak pokes at other players, which is quite scummy for me.
-For Ophidia, I essentially have two possibilities in my mind. I have one where Ophidia is scum and extremely unsure about himself and is so scared of posting content that he tries to avoid it as much as possible, and I have another where Ophidia is town and genuine in what he says. The reason why things like Ophidia's snark to Vaimes and the Grapefruit pushing against the grain is because it's pretty far from my picture of him as scum while not at all outside what I'd expect from him as town. I think that your attack on him for "level 1 content" is a bit harsh considering he's Chinese and English is not his first language and translation from one language to another is pretty difficult and since it's usually not as simple as word to word translation it takes a pretty absurd command of both languages to be able to pick up on things like nuance which is how you start pushing past first level reasoning. I do agree with you that he's too heavily relying on people to provide guidance, but I don't think that it's a strong scumtell; I think it's equivalent to an employee asking too many questions at work; doesn't mean that they aren't trying necessarily.
Pozzai, I don't understand what you were trying to say in 235; why wouldn't you pay attention to Regfan early day 1 and how is page 5 not early day 1...?
I don't like his attack in 236, either; while I don't mind the video mafia reference (it's silly but it's something people do), "I keep my cards close to my chest" is nowhere near a rebuttal for "your attempts to sort people right now don't look genuine".
And again 239 seems to be completely missing the point unless I'm really really bad at reading unless he's claiming that he always has focus on things that have nothing to do with alignment in every game.
1) I don't actively try to solve the alignments of people I don't know well/feel I have a strong read on early day1, like ever. I try to figure out the alignment of those I do, and work outwards from there. Therefore Regfan isn't a person that is the typical archetype I try to figure out early. This doesn't mean I wont have a strong opinion when Regfan starts pushing a scumread on me that from all experience and knowledge he has on me, should be NAI.
2) Again, this would be fair, if Regfan had showed ANY interest in determining my alignment, he didn't, and still hasn't. The 'rebuttal' was a jab and an invitation for him to show he was thinking about my alignment by actually backing his accusation up and ripping my reasons for asking specific questions apart. The invitation has been stated repeatedly throughout the thread, and he has yet to do anything but stick to his guns instead of trying to determine my alignment.
3) Was mainly a response to to the first part of Regfan's statement.
Do you think that Regfan has done anything in particular to figure out my alignment? Do you think he's ever investigated any of the reasons he consider me scum, outside the Tom thing, which he then later follows up on by saying "the amount of focus I put on Tom for that reason was out of proportion" when I basically hadn't brought it up on my own but instead was asked about from Regfan constantly?
Is Regfan to your knowledge typically a person that sticks with his initial scumread, and never try to 'solve' it outside of lynching it?
Pozzai, I haven't yet looked at you and Regfan's exchange in depth. From early interactions I'd say that yeah, Regfan is trying to figure you out. I don't think there is too much reassessing in his ISO but that's not particularly problematic; most people don't show signs of reassessing unless something particularly interesting happens and I can see why he's maintained his push so far, but I'll give you a better answer when I'm caught up.
@Ophidia I for one do not overly care, it's nothing unusual for people with no experience to read me scummy for my playstyle in our first game together, I guess Vaimes would be the interesting party out of the bunch as he at least have played forum with me before.
Ophidia early posts have been talked about a bit, but I dislike the comment he had in regards to X=Y where a few days ago where he basically says "well I've done more than this guy, so I deserve to live".
I think scum in general considers themselves as having done 'more' than they actually have in a game, and from experience the argument that more=town, more often comes from scum.
At the same time Ophidia hasn't voted the person she spoke about in that manner either, he's still sitting on an rvs vote, and while you could argue that it's to not hammer, there's been plenty of situations where we've been {L-2}.
@Pozzai so then your top scum reads become Reg>Ophi>>>Delphi>Everyone else?
Want to lynch:
Reg, Ophi
Okay with lynching:
Iso, Nacho, X=Y
Wouldn't lie sleepless over lynching as last resort:
TyphD_V, Delphine
Would probably be more like it, had you asked yesterday Delphine had probably been up a tier. The last two I'm obviously not 'interested' in lynching, but their lynch wouldn't 'devastate' me.
Ophidia putting Pozzai as null and then a few posts later calling him "quite scummy" doesn't seem real. Nor does the poke at Regfan, but I digress.
Nacho acknowledges that there is a world where Ophidia is scum. It's a single phrase, and it makes more sense than the entire paragraph the follows about townOphidia.
Pozzai's response to Nacho is just to keep attacking Regfan. The little mini Ophidia push at the very end of the day is frown-worthy. Him replacing out there probably puts an end to that line, but I'll see if any of that suspicion spills over to Killjoy before Pozzai gave up.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
So. Nacho/Ophidia decided to townread each other and gave only cursory thoughts on the alternative. Pozzai largely ignored both of them until the xequalsy lynch was already decided. They, in turn, had Pozzai as a suspect but engaged only with other peoples' reasoning while agreeing but staying out of the way of the mislynch.
Like, that's the whole of their day 1 interactions.
Will get to day 2 and both slots' "contribution" to the Pozzai lynch and his response later.
One last thing that I noticed but wasn't really within the scope of this post:
@Vaimes
Yes I was apparently on xequalsy with 5 townies. But Ophidia had him as his only scumread and was staying off so as to not hammer. And Nacho had him as his top scumread but was voting Regfan from RVS. So... yeah. What do you think of that?
I'm mostly in favor of lynching Killjoy toDay but I'm gonna double-check Pozzai interactions sometime this week to be sure.
Killjoy is making me pull my hair out because what he's doing can realistically be coming from either scum or town ("what he's doing" referring to pushing on literally anybody that he can).
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
@Nacho - You promised me content and thoughts that'll smack me with your towniness all over my face, I'm disappointed. I'm pretty close to just voting KJ and really anything from you would have made me feel much more confident doing it. So dude, if you're town actually start focusing on this game and convince me I'm not making a mistake voting KJ here.
@KJ - It requiring 4 votes to lynch is fairly irrelevant at this stage; if Toms your stronger scum read and others are agreeing with the read (See; Vaimes, Nacho & Iso) then it'd make much more sense to pursue your stronger scum read. It's how quick you were willing to move away from him that makes that read from yo feel very fake and more like you're just pandering to me while also constantly delaying and avoiding going into the Tom read again.
@Iso - There's a few things re; KJ & Pozzai interactions and mentions of each other I didn't like and strengthens my scum read there, will drag them up and post them tonight.
I'm here right now, plan to put a bit of time in this game right now.
I'm nowhere near ready for a lynch; still a fair bit that I'd like to say and I need to mostly focus on cleaning here after I post some things in this game and then the next three or so days will mostly be dedicated to wrapping up reading and case-making for today here. Would appreciate if you stuck around for a little while if you could for no other reason but to keep posting so I don't get banned for spamming and can post freely.
I'm not gonna convince you to lynch tom. I'm not going to convince his buddy to do it. Tom will not vote himself. That is 3 people.
So I went for his buddy since he's the more likely lynch here. Better than losing by letting myself get lynched here.
I really thikn that Tom's progression on Pozz was unnatural. He shoved other people in front of him until he couldn't anymore. Then he jumped right on when he saw your case because it was too good. How do you not see that too? I really don't know.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
Newcomb dying over Regfan is slightly disconcerting, but I thought he did act a bit like a power role around Pozzai's claim so it may be meaningless. Need to look at Nacho again, but with the talk of a dichotomy between him and Newcomb it doesn't seem like a kill he would make.
@Iso have you read the game yet?
I don't like Tom bringing up the "Regfan is still alive" comment two days in a row and then doing absolutely nothing with it, just feels like he's observing it because it's something he feels like he should be observing and then depositing it because Regfan looks town as *****. Town tom and paranoia walk hand and hand closer than most married couples and so I feel like him flirting with it in this way is not really in his nature, but this is based on my personal experience with him - main take away from this point is that it's weird for him to bring it up if he's not actually considering it.
I don't have an issue with Toms Post #1191 at all and find the paranoia type comment re; me living to be more likely to come from town if anything. Happy birthday btw.
I still don't understand why Tom just saying the words "Regfan is alive this is mildly concerning" and then doing nothing with them is likely to be coming from town but my worry about Vaimes at the start of today was scummy because I was considering a world where KJ was town as well. I don't think that point that it just feels like something he's obligated to say, something that he's going through the motions with is a completely unfounded point; why do you?
Vaimes and Nacho are townie when here, but they've both left less a mark on the game than their postcounts and who they are would make me expect. Vaimes I know has been busier since the beginning of the game, and Nacho's engagement in longer phases always wavers. Nacho has a chance to be scum just because he has been pulling the strings but not committing to anything really. Vaimes would have to have a pretty specific set of partners and with Pozzai flipped scum and Newcomb flipped town, I'm not really seeing it. But I'd like stronger stances from both.
I think that Tom's approach to Vaimes here is pretty bizarre; don't like how he ends up working through Vaimes because "ah, you don't fit this specific set of partners" instead of reading his play and clearing him that way. I mean, I understand taking the Voxxicus playstyle, but I don't think it would make him strangely uncomfortable with Vaimes like it seems to be doing here.
I'm not gonna convince you to lynch tom. I'm not going to convince his buddy to do it. Tom will not vote himself. That is 3 people.
So I went for his buddy since he's the more likely lynch here. Better than losing by letting myself get lynched here.
I really thikn that Tom's progression on Pozz was unnatural. He shoved other people in front of him until he couldn't anymore. Then he jumped right on when he saw your case because it was too good. How do you not see that too? I really don't know.
Problem:
I'm the person who you're calling the tom partner and I've told you straight up that I'm completely willing to vote tom. When I pointed out that there were in fact four people who were willing to vote tom, you went "oh but Iso and Vaimes aren't here yet" which makes the absolute opposite of sense because we're in MyLo, of course they're going to show up eventually, not like we have 5 hours total in order to get a lynch.
Okay, last comment re: Tom's approach to Vaimes was probably confirmation bias setting in. I just don't think that Tom the person would ever feel uncomfortable with Vaimes and go "hmm, these are the people he could be partners with so I guess he's not scum" as opposed to just solidifying his read on Vaimes unless his Vaimes relationship is several degrees different from everyone else's, but I'm remembering Regfan doing similarly at the beginning of the day so he could hypothetically just be fading into the Voxxicus persona.
- ...I think tom had good interactions with Pozzai (specifically, the "are you scum wtih Regfan? ...this feels like a 'yes'"), and Pozzai's flip-out-y reaction to it
Is this the most compelling reason interaction for tom not being scum with Pozzai?
Just out of curiosity, if i scumclsim, will anyone believe me
I didn't remember this post from Vaimes before (Regfan pointed it out), but it's something that I'm revisiting now that Newcomb flipped town. I think that this would be an exceptionally strange post coming from Vaimes as scum where there's a living Newcomb; maybe he's drunk on power with having the scumgame of his life, but I can't help but feel like Vaimes as scum would always be on edge that people were going to start pressing him and probably wouldn't be able to hype himself into this kind of mindset as scum.
Ok so I'm about halfway through. Time for work. Will finish up on tom hopefully after I get off. I'm at post 515 but since I'm pretty mcuh only looking at tom it's been going fast.
Is there a reason why you're not using the ISO feature if this is what you're doing ? I've been casually going through looking at posts that I think are more alignment indicative then opening them up to read the exact context and timing it was placed in to get reads on people. Lets me sort through a lot of the weaker/more irrelevant posts and strengthen my reads that way while still making sure to look at the context correctly. I've actually stopped playing at sites due to them having bad "ISO" features in game, that's how much I rely on them; MTG's is surprisingly decent.
Wouldn't mind actually getting the chance to talk to Killjoy as opposed to him just skittering away every time I show up; there's nothing that slot has done that's bothered me more than the "we don't have the votes for tom, let's lynch nacho" thing he has going on and I'm still pretty excited to hear him try to defend it in full.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
Also I guess I missed when you said the thing about the 4 wanting to kill tom thing.I don't recall seeing that.
When I pointed out that me + Vaimes + Iso were all scumreading tom your response was "they're not here lynching tom with me yet, and so he can't be lynched". That's what I'm referring to.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
Because I didn't know there were enough. I assumed that you, as his buddy wouldn't wanna lynch him.
Actually, the only other opetion for his buddy (Vaimes) is also willing to lynch him. That's weird.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
@Killjoy - Nacho went into it above but not "Every town vote" is required for a lynch; there's the argument that mafia don't have to buss but at this point into the game scum have very little wiggle room and very likely have been forced to scum read their partner; this means they don't particularly have an excuse not to vote their partner if a wagon forms there so no, Tom getting lynched isn't "impossible" at all and I think if you're town here you would have voted him rather than this appeasing attitude. On top of that I've repeatedly stated I don't have my fingers in my eyes going "Lalalalala" with everything you state about Tom, there's a few points that I do agree with you on, largely the timing of his Pozzai reduction of strength very early on so explaining that read better would make much more sense to do rather than quickly switching to Nacho, that change just looks really reallly fake.
Okay Nacho, I've got myself a beer and some spare time. Sure, you're not wrong that Toms "He's still alive" line didn't have a lot of follow up to it, it was moreso that it read tonally town but admittedly that's a fairly weak tell. Main things I need from you is a) A deeper thought process behind the KJ!Town coming into today section, B) A deeper elaboration behind your Tom!Scum read C) An elaboration behind your thoughts on KJ+Tom as a scum team.
This is your response to Vaimes after Vaimes mentioned that you were asking leading questions that made it seem like you were suspecting me. What did you mean by the "maybe it means something" part?
@Vaimes:
Is 140 the Pozzai interaction where he overreacted or is there a more significant reaction down the line? Because while it does seem kind of weird/off/i guess saying "Why him of all people?" doesn't seem like the degree of flail that would make me confident in ruling out partners.
195:
Ah, or here, the one post you took to appeal to Vaimes.
Because you couldn't prove that you were town in Voxxicus's body, right?
I like this post from tom towards Iso; do agree that his Pozzai read looked pretty strange at that point in time. The part of tom's play that still looks like the towniest to me is still his push on Iso when an easy mislynch was right at his fingertips, but it's entirely possible that he was pushing to mislynch Iso before Iso turned it on (since he saw he was having an off game and townreading his scumpartner).
This attack on Iso is pretty bad, might be sticking out his neck a bit too far here; he basically digs up an old scumgame where he explains his playstyle a bit and goes "ha! town!Iso would rather talk about the current game!".
I do think that the "my scumread on Iso is strong enough where I would townread X=Y if someone sold they were hard unaligned" --> "nevermind" of 524 looked town on the surface, but the scum motivation behind it seems pretty clear in retrospect. I can't help but feel this might be the part where Tom probably should have pushed back against the X=Y lynch a little harder; he was scummy, yes, but his big scumread on Iso was founded on Iso being competent and a force as town while just trying to do all the damage he could do as scum so Iso bussing the ***** out of his partner doesn't really make sense in that scenario but that "nevermind" sequence was the only place where Tom really seemed to seriously question Iso-X=Y being best friends forever.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
The interesting piece that seemed to have cropped up is that Tom's treatment of X=Y when he had the lock scum read on Iso seemed a bit strange. In particular, his scumread on Iso got to the type of strength where he was digging through a bunch of games and comparing two theory posts to talking about how if X=Y and Iso were proven unaligned he'd townread X=Y. I think that as town he'd probably push back harder against the X=Y lynch, as it stands, I think him going from hard scumreading Iso to being completely okay with seeing X=Y get lynched is a bit strange, and I find it worse that he never once brings up that they don't like partners or attempt to reconcile his strong scumreads on both of them.
I especially like this post, where X=Y calls him out for letting his lynch go through and posturing to push Iso more the next day, and Tom goes "if you two are both town, great point" then later proceeds to do exactly that.
It's also weird that he was one of the people to press through the X=Y lynch in the end; I understand why others would be "yeah, let's just get the flip" but tom, who had a hard scumread on Iso (that never seemed to soften), instead of doubting his scumread on X=Y, instead decides to take a leap to see if the X=Y made Iso look townier (just like part of his reasoning for lynching DV was to clear me).
Damn it. I'm so mad. Jdjdkejdkskekw
Taking a break. Maybe I'll finish tonight. Maybe not. We will see
tomsloger
Iso
Killjoy
Regfan
Nachomamma8
I'm town.
Dead townies are town.
Iso is an unCCed vig. As much as it physically pains me to put him on top, if he is scum, we lose but I get to say I was right all along and blame the setup. Just assume I also threw a crack at how much he's sucked this game and how bad the... whatever. Vig.
Regfan has been my top town for a super long time, for good reason. And frankly, with the way this day has played out he can't be scum short of some absolutely insane Reg/Vaimes world.
Vaimes is a level below, but remains a pretty solid read. I'm more or less ok with his paranoia of me right now, especially when backed up with a votecount and our entire history telling him not to trust me. #586 is a pretty good post about Ophidia's play, and I think makes them pretty unlikely to be partners. He's got some odd reads on Nacho, but lord knows I have too this game. And his suggestion to just lynch Nacho and deal with me vs Killjoy later would seem to make that unlikely. His interaction with Newcomb starting before but culminating around #785 seems... out of his range when he knows Newcomb is town.
Ophidia was pretty meh. Decent tone and/or sassiness at times. But Vaimes is right that he's never played up being new/language barrier before. I hate reading off that, but it's a pretty large part of his game. Killjoy's reads around me/DV don't make much sense. And, of course, lack of interaction with Nacho. A couple of his "well I guess I just suck then" type of AtE posts I really just want to either townread or ignore, but they also don't really match with the confidence he's showing on his Tomscum narrative. Especially how much of what he didn't like was playstyle and then acknowledging I was doing a pretty decent impression but that not meaning... anything at all to him?
For Nacho, I think I'm agreeing with a lot of Newcomb's case in #945. Active lurking, defending Pozzai, politely staying out of the way while town got lynched, some amount of alternate facts/revisionist history. The fact he's been so adamant on townreading the Killjoy slot with not a lot of actual workings. The case on DV was good, but that being a mislynch changes things a bit. His PoE landing him on nothing that looks like it could be the scumteam and the fact that I actually cannot see a team that doesn't involve him. I'd like to hear his read on me explained a little better, possibly involving our recent experience of being scum together for 5 days in that MU game. I'm not sure I can take much from it since he was so focused on being someone else but he just got to see me powerwolf pretty hard sans meta.
tomsloger
Grapefruit21Empoof
Newcomb
xequalsy
DV
Iso
Regfan
Vaimes
Killjoy
Nachomamma8
PozzaiJust poking through Newcomb's reads on Nacho and Vaimes, Regfan's team eliminations, reads on me, and just a complete lack of interaction with or about eachother, the Nacho/Killjoy team basically stares right back at me and makes sense. It feels like that's what my PoE has been telling me since, like, day 3. And I keep wanting to read things to maybe find something different but nothing else makes quite fits.
I want to see Killjoy finally talk about Nacho. I'd like to see Nacho's reasoning on the slot all in one place. I'd like to read through one more time just in case I missed something. But I think this is it.
I have a slight preference for lynching Nacho over Killjoy, because he still... technically works with Vaimes. I don't think it's likely, but that's the only other thing it could be. Yes I saw Regfan eliminating it as a possibility, but I can't quite do it. It is, however, several orders of magnitude less likely.
@Tom - I'm finding KJ's confidence level re; pushing you and his reasoning based around it and claiming not to ever use meta while at the same time having effectively town meta read Nacho and never bothered to look into him until pushed for it to be a huge scum tell here. Can you elaborate on the "Defending Pozzai" section from Nacho because I've gone through his ISO a few times now and I think the fact he didn't actually start pushing Pozzai until D2 is a scum tell and a concern I've had with him for a lot of the game but I didn't ever really see him 'defend' Pozzai inside his ISO so you throwing that out there doesn't make a lot of sense. Your focus slightly moreson on Nacho than anyone else and directing yourself to be more inclined to vote there does make me feel a bit better about you guys not being the team here.
I've still got a bit of reading I need to do myself and want to hear Nacho re; his current scum team thoughts & opinion on KJ and similarly KJ's stance on Nacho as well as a better elaboration on his Tom read. Some more thoughts from Vaimes & Iso would be nice as well but at this point I think my strongest scum read in the game is Killjoy and think we're probably dealing with KJ+Nacho.
And I find this an even better example:
Nacho is apparently scumreading Pozzai, but doesn't like others' scumread of Pozzai, and doesn't especially add reasons of his own. As defenses go, it's pretty soft. It makes a lot of sense as an interaction with a partner where Nacho doesn't want to look bad when he flips but doesn't want to actively bring his lynch about.
And to be clear, curse did not lose it. It was in notepad. My computer restarted. That's what pissed me off.
@Vaimes - You going to be around today? Would like your overall read on the Ophidia/KJ slot from the whole game because I'm more inclined to vote there than anywhere else today.
I also think that his tone and such is awkward for dealing with his major scumread: In 693 He has a very confident and declaritive tone; "Pozz is almost certainly the lynch today" but comes in later with 771 and suddenly he's onto Newcomb pushing really hard in 790. This can certainly be a scum counterwagoning for their partner. Like, to go from being so certain that Pozz is scum to kinda liking something he did and all of a sudden he's not the scummiest anymore (which btw is a problem I had with tom's posting re: Pozz if you'll recall) just doesn't seem natural. Like he is looking for a reason to find someone else scummy.
Then there's this series of posts: 1092 and 1099. For someone who he's scumreading, he's being really patient with him. I feel like he'd be a little more annoyed that Pozz just wasn't claiming.
And finally there's this: This sounds... just like... fake. The language seems awkeard and it feels like he doesn't actually care about the gamestate doing that. Also, he seems heavily invested in getting people off of Pozz here.
And his advocating that a proitective role out so early is weird as well. As Doc, I wouldn't cc ever until mass claim time, because you're too important alive. I think that's a common sentiment, actually.
So, yeah Nacho is probably scum with Pozzai.
I would obviously be more comfy with a Nacho lynch today if only so I have more time to convince you guys of Tom being the bad guy. I thought I articulated it well but meh.
And re: meta: I don't use it for another reason too: I almost never remember it. It's always "I kinda recall him doing this" or "I think he had this tone" or "I don't THINK this is out of the ordinary". So, on top of people being aware of their metas and mimicing them to appear town, that is why I don't do it.
And with regard to Nacho and meta: Not only did I think this is how he was in Mind Screw, it was also a generally townie thing to do: being playful and analytical at the same time. Then he started active lurking and Pozz, Iso, and tom came up so I kinda... forgot he was here. I never reanalyized his alignment since those first posts.
Also, I think that Winterfell will tell you a lot about me. Also I think the endgame of STMU3, where I tinfoil like crazy. I get really indecisive when the game hangs on the line.
I don't use meta but other's do. So, you can check out my posting and see what that says about me.
As for the "I have more time to convince you guys of Tom being the bad guy. I thought I articulated it well but meh." I'd like you to go into your reasoning behind Tom being scum outside of having to rely on using his playstyle as a scum-tell (Because it's absolutely not) and your interaction reasons with Tom-Pozzai seem weak so if there's more to it I'd like to hear it.
I'm happy to wait; Nacho put my issue with your change in read there fairly well above, it's not the scum read on him that I have issues with, it's the reasoning behind it being reasoning that others had put forward throughout the game and you just acknowledging it now right after we suggested you being scum together, the fact that it somehow overtakes your strong scum read on Tom feels very unnatural.
Pozzai/Nacho/Killphidia just sort of makes sense. Like, I've believed Regfan and Vaimes to be town the whole game. Iso (heavy sigh) is as close to confirmed town as we can get right now via mod/setupgaming. The two remaining have not had memorable interactions. And both wanted to lynch me today... in lylo... exactly when I'm a needed mislynch. While I think I've been super town, I guess I can acknowledge I'm closer to my scumrange than Vaimes or Regfan are to theirs. So obviously scum need me to be the lynch. (Thus the minor bout of Vaimes having the game of his life paranoia, but I'm more or less over it now.)
So.
@Regfan
If you're comfortable enough with your setup research to absolutely clear Iso, I'm comfortable enough to make that my final decision.
This isn't true though, Vaimes has a scum read on Tom and has stated he's leaning towards voting there, really the whole change from you just looks very fake.
I don't see it being a 9:3, closed 12 player setup where the only town power we have is a Tracker+Doctor against a Roleblocker. There's typically a lot more power than that inside these basics and a 1-shot vig makes a lot of sense with that setup, it actually looks very similar to the last two basics that Wheat hosted so yeah I'd say Isos town here. Him also suggesting a NL (Which is a horrible move here) after having claimed and been cleared from it is something he wouldn't do as scum since he wouldn't be able to explain not dying, I can see him doing it as town if he thinks he's having a bad game though.
And yet KJ goes "yep, we don't have the votes, full steam ahead on the Nacho lynch bois".
So you think that, after being asked to form an opinion of Nacho in lylo... my forming an opinion of Nacho in lylo is scummy because my change of opinion seemed fake? Seriously? What did you expect to happen?
And you're scumreading me because I parked a townread on him early in the game and forgot about him because Iso and tom existed. Sorry, let me just retroactively change that for you.
And btw, that's literally what I'm accusing tom of. Why do I accuse tom of that if I, myself, am doing it with my buddy? Why does that seem like a thing I'm doing?
@Vaimes & Iso - If you think I might be wrong on KJ would appreciate you letting me know asap as I'm fairly likely to vote there pretty soon.
The bolded is just cruel, sure Tammy has multiple 'talents' but none of them involve the game of mafia and how to scumhunt! I'm fine waiting until tomorrow if you have time to get around to elaborating on everything then but if you're town here I need to see it because there's several issues I have with your play throughout this game one of the larger ones being your town read on KJ and while it's great that you've come around to agreeing that he's probably mafia here and while it's nice that your reasoning behind it recently mirrors my dislike of his posting I can see it easily being you attempting to distancing with him.
How do Vaimes & Isos activity have anything to do with the fact they scum read Tom? They still have a vote at the end of the day meaning if you're actually town here and Toms mafia then it's not "impossible" to lynch him; You have multiple people here stating they're willing and likely to vote Tom here and it's not like I'm putting my fingers in my ears and refusing to listen to logic so your change of stance here really doesn't make sense and just feels like you're trying to pander to me rather than actually get your stronger scum read lynched. So again, if you're town I'd like to focus on explaining the Tom read without using his style.
I have two big issues with the read from you 1) It's based on reasoning and logic people have brought up throughout the game, thus information you'd have read but it didn't 'mean anything to you' until now which feels contrived and 2) It's the fact that after town reading him you've moved to wanting to actually vote him over your scum read and this change all occurred over a very short period of time. Had you come out of reading Nachos ISO and had some original commentary about his play rather than restating what others have said I'd have found it much more genuine but that's not even remotely what happened.
You've been HERE BEFORE. You RECOGNIZE that ROCK that looks SUSPICOUSLY like Ragnor.
VOTECOUNT
Not Voting - 6 (Vaimes, tomsloger, Iso, Killjoy, Regfan, Nachomamma8)
I know I restartd tom's thing but I don't recall seeing anything about his votes re: Pozz.
I mean, I get it it's just annoying that I know if we lynch me we lose and yet that's all anyone wants to do.
Well, here:
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It's pretty... meh.
Then comes Nacho's catchup in #479, 483, 484, and 486.
The Pozzai bits are some parts cozying up to Regfan about reading Pozzai together (the fact that he says they "zeroed in on the same thing" after earlier saying it was the only thing of Pozzai's he'd seen points me towards that being intentional), some parts continuing to talk to Pozzai about me, and some parts a reasonably hard push. Like, yeah this could be a bus. I don't think there's anything specifically pointing at that besides the Regfan cozying, but he wants to lynch xequalsy more anyway.
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*Vaimes asks why people are still sitting on their RVS votes*
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Nacho acknowledges that there is a world where Ophidia is scum. It's a single phrase, and it makes more sense than the entire paragraph the follows about townOphidia.
Pozzai's response to Nacho is just to keep attacking Regfan. The little mini Ophidia push at the very end of the day is frown-worthy. Him replacing out there probably puts an end to that line, but I'll see if any of that suspicion spills over to Killjoy before Pozzai gave up.
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So. Nacho/Ophidia decided to townread each other and gave only cursory thoughts on the alternative. Pozzai largely ignored both of them until the xequalsy lynch was already decided. They, in turn, had Pozzai as a suspect but engaged only with other peoples' reasoning while agreeing but staying out of the way of the mislynch.
Like, that's the whole of their day 1 interactions.
Will get to day 2 and both slots' "contribution" to the Pozzai lynch and his response later.
One last thing that I noticed but wasn't really within the scope of this post:
@Vaimes
Yes I was apparently on xequalsy with 5 townies. But Ophidia had him as his only scumread and was staying off so as to not hammer. And Nacho had him as his top scumread but was voting Regfan from RVS. So... yeah. What do you think of that?
Killjoy is making me pull my hair out because what he's doing can realistically be coming from either scum or town ("what he's doing" referring to pushing on literally anybody that he can).
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
@KJ - It requiring 4 votes to lynch is fairly irrelevant at this stage; if Toms your stronger scum read and others are agreeing with the read (See; Vaimes, Nacho & Iso) then it'd make much more sense to pursue your stronger scum read. It's how quick you were willing to move away from him that makes that read from yo feel very fake and more like you're just pandering to me while also constantly delaying and avoiding going into the Tom read again.
@Iso - There's a few things re; KJ & Pozzai interactions and mentions of each other I didn't like and strengthens my scum read there, will drag them up and post them tonight.
I'm nowhere near ready for a lynch; still a fair bit that I'd like to say and I need to mostly focus on cleaning here after I post some things in this game and then the next three or so days will mostly be dedicated to wrapping up reading and case-making for today here. Would appreciate if you stuck around for a little while if you could for no other reason but to keep posting so I don't get banned for spamming and can post freely.
So I went for his buddy since he's the more likely lynch here. Better than losing by letting myself get lynched here.
I really thikn that Tom's progression on Pozz was unnatural. He shoved other people in front of him until he couldn't anymore. Then he jumped right on when he saw your case because it was too good. How do you not see that too? I really don't know.
I don't like Tom bringing up the "Regfan is still alive" comment two days in a row and then doing absolutely nothing with it, just feels like he's observing it because it's something he feels like he should be observing and then depositing it because Regfan looks town as *****. Town tom and paranoia walk hand and hand closer than most married couples and so I feel like him flirting with it in this way is not really in his nature, but this is based on my personal experience with him - main take away from this point is that it's weird for him to bring it up if he's not actually considering it.
I still don't understand why Tom just saying the words "Regfan is alive this is mildly concerning" and then doing nothing with them is likely to be coming from town but my worry about Vaimes at the start of today was scummy because I was considering a world where KJ was town as well. I don't think that point that it just feels like something he's obligated to say, something that he's going through the motions with is a completely unfounded point; why do you?
I think that Tom's approach to Vaimes here is pretty bizarre; don't like how he ends up working through Vaimes because "ah, you don't fit this specific set of partners" instead of reading his play and clearing him that way. I mean, I understand taking the Voxxicus playstyle, but I don't think it would make him strangely uncomfortable with Vaimes like it seems to be doing here.
Problem:
I'm the person who you're calling the tom partner and I've told you straight up that I'm completely willing to vote tom. When I pointed out that there were in fact four people who were willing to vote tom, you went "oh but Iso and Vaimes aren't here yet" which makes the absolute opposite of sense because we're in MyLo, of course they're going to show up eventually, not like we have 5 hours total in order to get a lynch.
Is this the most compelling reason interaction for tom not being scum with Pozzai?
I didn't remember this post from Vaimes before (Regfan pointed it out), but it's something that I'm revisiting now that Newcomb flipped town. I think that this would be an exceptionally strange post coming from Vaimes as scum where there's a living Newcomb; maybe he's drunk on power with having the scumgame of his life, but I can't help but feel like Vaimes as scum would always be on edge that people were going to start pressing him and probably wouldn't be able to hype himself into this kind of mindset as scum.
How on earth do you ISO on MTGS...?
You ISO by going -> http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/forum-games/mafia -> clicking the total post number of the thread and then clicking on a players post number.
I'll try to stay around for when you come back, will work on reading through tom in the meantime.
Also I guess I missed when you said the thing about the 4 wanting to kill tom thing.I don't recall seeing that.
When I pointed out that me + Vaimes + Iso were all scumreading tom your response was "they're not here lynching tom with me yet, and so he can't be lynched". That's what I'm referring to.
Yeah that was a response to Reg. I didn't even see that.
Actually, the only other opetion for his buddy (Vaimes) is also willing to lynch him. That's weird.
What will you do with this new information?
Okay Nacho, I've got myself a beer and some spare time. Sure, you're not wrong that Toms "He's still alive" line didn't have a lot of follow up to it, it was moreso that it read tonally town but admittedly that's a fairly weak tell. Main things I need from you is a) A deeper thought process behind the KJ!Town coming into today section, B) A deeper elaboration behind your Tom!Scum read C) An elaboration behind your thoughts on KJ+Tom as a scum team.
This is your response to Vaimes after Vaimes mentioned that you were asking leading questions that made it seem like you were suspecting me. What did you mean by the "maybe it means something" part?
@Vaimes:
Is 140 the Pozzai interaction where he overreacted or is there a more significant reaction down the line? Because while it does seem kind of weird/off/i guess saying "Why him of all people?" doesn't seem like the degree of flail that would make me confident in ruling out partners.
195:
Ah, or here, the one post you took to appeal to Vaimes.
Because you couldn't prove that you were town in Voxxicus's body, right?
I like this post from tom towards Iso; do agree that his Pozzai read looked pretty strange at that point in time. The part of tom's play that still looks like the towniest to me is still his push on Iso when an easy mislynch was right at his fingertips, but it's entirely possible that he was pushing to mislynch Iso before Iso turned it on (since he saw he was having an off game and townreading his scumpartner).
This attack on Iso is pretty bad, might be sticking out his neck a bit too far here; he basically digs up an old scumgame where he explains his playstyle a bit and goes "ha! town!Iso would rather talk about the current game!".
I do think that the "my scumread on Iso is strong enough where I would townread X=Y if someone sold they were hard unaligned" --> "nevermind" of 524 looked town on the surface, but the scum motivation behind it seems pretty clear in retrospect. I can't help but feel this might be the part where Tom probably should have pushed back against the X=Y lynch a little harder; he was scummy, yes, but his big scumread on Iso was founded on Iso being competent and a force as town while just trying to do all the damage he could do as scum so Iso bussing the ***** out of his partner doesn't really make sense in that scenario but that "nevermind" sequence was the only place where Tom really seemed to seriously question Iso-X=Y being best friends forever.
I especially like this post, where X=Y calls him out for letting his lynch go through and posturing to push Iso more the next day, and Tom goes "if you two are both town, great point" then later proceeds to do exactly that.
It's also weird that he was one of the people to press through the X=Y lynch in the end; I understand why others would be "yeah, let's just get the flip" but tom, who had a hard scumread on Iso (that never seemed to soften), instead of doubting his scumread on X=Y, instead decides to take a leap to see if the X=Y made Iso look townier (just like part of his reasoning for lynching DV was to clear me).
Any thoughts on this?
Do you not understand why I'm looking at you sideways for the whole "tom is scum but imma vote Nacho" thing?