KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
Going to dump my analysis of the DV/Typhon slot, I'll post mine on other slots on Wednesday night.
The reasoning behind Typhons particular push on X=Y inside Post #209 is something I didn't have a problem with at the time and agreed with several sections of it but looking back at it now the over focus there instead of on Pozzai at a time where my reads were "Scum (S->W):Pozzai, Xequals" inside Post #205 has a lot of scum motivation behind it in that it fits scum attempting to redirect the focus towards a mslynch rather than a partner. His hammer on X=Y inside Post #679 is fairly problematic in that he's claiming Iso was one of his scum reads D1 and was the biggest pusher of the X=Y wagon. His reasoning behind the hammer inside Post #711 of it "providing information" doesn't mesh with his complete lack of analysis from it and the read on Nacho there and in follow posts feels very shallow and more of a "Comment on something someone said recently!" type post. The read and vote on Vaimes inside Post #721 and their following interactions doesn't feel like a genuine scum reading; feels more like scum attempting to find something to focus on and talk about, ignoring the plethora of information and content from Vaimes throughout the game and focusing on a singular comment from him is fairly hard to see coming from town here. His read on Newcomb inside Post #886 is very vague and continued postponement of actually getting to his analysis is a rather solid scum tell. The strongest scum tell inside this post is his stance on Pozzai "That being said I guess Pozzai Is probabally scum just based on how much I've already whittled down the list." the scum read via PoE doesn't fit his prior stances of scum reads on Vaimes/Iso/Nacho and a null read on Tom, it makes a *****load of sense coming from a partner though.
Also I don't want to go find it but check out the interaction I had with him about Nacho. I commented on that specifically at EoD yesterday. Hopefully I put post numbers when I talked about it
But I'd like people to give opinions on my Tom thing before we lynch so it doesn't fall by the wayside and then also whoever the scum decide to kill tonight will have commented on it.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
Man, my reads have been essentially the same for awhile. Possibly means I need to reread very carefully. But I'm hoping it just means this game has been solved-ish for quite some time.
I feel like we can lynch you/Killjoy/D_V/maybe Empoof and win. I don't think there's a good chance of any scum outside of those four.
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
Sure. I think your mindset here comes from scum. Instead of organically developing your reads, you're re-establishing your view of the game in a manner that feels wholly inorganic and focuses only on one particular thing instead of attempting to solve the game. I felt a very abrupt mindset shift from you from your push on me prior seguing into your tom case.
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
Toms entire elaboration on how he's playing this game and his "I don't understand how anyone can scum read me" nside Post #1270 reads genuine and strengthens my town read there. His most recent reads wall inside Post #1275 is pretty much where I'm at with most players in that I'm very confident that Vaimes/Empoof are town here, feel very good about DV being scum and think Killjoy may be too with less confident reads on Nacho/Iso so far.
Killjoys 'case' on Tom inside Post #1287 doesn't look like him genuinely attemping to determine Toms alignment but rather twist his posts and comments to make them look scummy; the fact it begins with attempting to draw a comparison between the "Look for town, don't interact with scum so much" playstyle and a RVS vote points to as much. His attempt at spinning the timing of Toms vote on Pozzai as scummy is hugely problematic in that the "People were scumreading him" type reasoning can be attached to most periods in the game. There's no reassessment, no consideration of the read being potentially wrong at all, it's just attempting to paint everything in a bad light.
@Tom - Fair warning, about the only thing of yours I really disagree with is that DV/Nacho are never a scum team, I think it's unlikely based on how Typhon/Nacho interacted and Nachos push on Typhon D1 as well as DV D2 but I think DV just laying down to the lynch here would make sense if it's because he thinks his partner wins the game from it, admittedly it's a pretty tinfoily thought but just not something I want ruled out completely.
@Empoof - I think the odds of a Vaimes/Nacho world are near zero in that a) I'm pretty certain Vaimes is town here based on his play so far and if Newcombs left a wrong read on Vaimes I"ll just blame him postgame and b) I don't think Nacho&Vaimes as scum together attempt to both push on and mslynch Newcomb inside a playerlist like this; plus I'm pretty confident we're in a world where DV's just scum here.
Since the above post will just be another vote of mine that doesn't count. Think that's L-2 from my count.
Iso, if you're still around and have a few spare minutes would appreciate you briefly ISO'ing Pozzais early game posts and seeing if you can tell me what specifically of his you town read him for. I'd also love your town read on Nacho elaborated on given your recent "Kill these 4 and win" doesn't involve him and I don't share the superstrong town read there.
I'll probably be off and on for the next few hours if anyone wants to chat, probably will just be perusing through Nachos ISO though.
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
@Tom - Fair warning, about the only thing of yours I really disagree with is that DV/Nacho are never a scum team, I think it's unlikely based on how Typhon/Nacho interacted and Nachos push on Typhon D1 as well as DV D2 but I think DV just laying down to the lynch here would make sense if it's because he thinks his partner wins the game from it, admittedly it's a pretty tinfoily thought but just not something I want ruled out completely.
Maybe it was an exceptionally vicious bus. I don't think so, but I can see it if I squint. Seems more likely to just be Nacho catching scum.
Actually, I agree with this, which is why I came into toDay considering tom for scum. He seemed pretty gung-ho about the Pozzai lynch early in the game but then when the time came to lynch him, he just sort of...balked. Especially when I came out with my reasoning for voting Pozzai. (Granted, I didn't actually consider that the scum would have killed Grapefruit, because I thought he was the farthest thing from obvtown. But YMMV, I guess, and the results justified the push.)
Oh. I missed this earlier as part of my "ignore Iso until massclaims say I can lynch him or until he stops being awful" policy.
That... didn't happen. I did not balk at lynching Pozzai. And was already voting him when you came out with your reasoning.
Um, has anyone had difficulty running MTG in the last few days? It opens and works for me but constantly "Freezes" and I have to reopen it to get it working again, had the issue on my work/home computers and on my phone.
@Iso - Fair, willing to wait until tomorrow, sidenote; 3 hours sleep isn't healthy to live on, did it for a while and it was very harmful.
@Tom - Yeah, it's very probably not the team, I just don't want it entirely ruled out given it'd make sense with DVs entire absence here.
Maybe the pronoun game is too strong? Basically, from your perspective, there are two viable lynches today as of right now: me and DV. You declaring that "we're lynching DV" is really commital, which you likely wouldn't do in a world where you had a choice between a town or your buddy. You are unlikely to pick your buddy over the townie to lynch in that situation.
Oh wait, are you saying these two situations are the same? No. Iso isn't declaring "We're lynching KJ today" which would only mean that Iso is not w/w with me. Not that Iso is scum.
Specifically, I'm not saying you're scum for doing this, but rather that in the world where you are, DV is not also scum.
From the POV of you being town, what's the difference between me going for you over the obvious DV lynch and Iso openly stating that he's moved you ahead of DV/me?
Like, if you aren't scum you are an absolutely necessary mislynch for them to have any chance whatsoever. I know Iso claimed vig or whatever, but there's only been one kill per night and the kill he claimed makes well more sense as a scum kill than a vig shot, even based on Iso's own thought process from late day 1.
But ok if you're only looking for ways for me to be scum and not him. That's your prerogative.
The case I am making has NOTHING to do with Iso. I am saying that a tom/D_V world is unlikely.
I am not saying Iso isn't scum for doing that. He's being non-commital, so that's a scum thing. But that's not what I am saying with THIS.
Iso is scum for many reasons. He is town for one. That's where I am with Iso right now. Again, not relevent to the you/DV world thing I am saying.
Toms entire elaboration on how he's playing this game and his "I don't understand how anyone can scum read me" nside Post #1270 reads genuine and strengthens my town read there. His most recent reads wall inside Post #1275 is pretty much where I'm at with most players in that I'm very confident that Vaimes/Empoof are town here, feel very good about DV being scum and think Killjoy may be too with less confident reads on Nacho/Iso so far.
Killjoys 'case' on Tom inside Post #1287 doesn't look like him genuinely attemping to determine Toms alignment but rather twist his posts and comments to make them look scummy; the fact it begins with attempting to draw a comparison between the "Look for town, don't interact with scum so much" playstyle and a RVS vote points to as much. His attempt at spinning the timing of Toms vote on Pozzai as scummy is hugely problematic in that the "People were scumreading him" type reasoning can be attached to most periods in the game. There's no reassessment, no consideration of the read being potentially wrong at all, it's just attempting to paint everything in a bad light.
@Tom - Fair warning, about the only thing of yours I really disagree with is that DV/Nacho are never a scum team, I think it's unlikely based on how Typhon/Nacho interacted and Nachos push on Typhon D1 as well as DV D2 but I think DV just laying down to the lynch here would make sense if it's because he thinks his partner wins the game from it, admittedly it's a pretty tinfoily thought but just not something I want ruled out completely.
@Empoof - I think the odds of a Vaimes/Nacho world are near zero in that a) I'm pretty certain Vaimes is town here based on his play so far and if Newcombs left a wrong read on Vaimes I"ll just blame him postgame and b) I don't think Nacho&Vaimes as scum together attempt to both push on and mslynch Newcomb inside a playerlist like this; plus I'm pretty confident we're in a world where DV's just scum here.
I'm happy to give Nacho his birthday present.
Vote: DV
Dude, I was restating what I said earlier. Remember how you said that some of it didn't make sense? Yeah, I expanded on that, this time with specific examples.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
Yeah I'm not buying DV's Post #1310 at all, he's at L-2 -- not even close to a lynch so that reaction makes no sense as town.
@Killjoy - 1) Iso's current stated scum reads are You/Tom/DV & Maybe Empoof, he's not insisting that You+Tom have to be a scum team at all so your insistence that he needs to reasses that stance is one that looks overdefensive and 2) I'm aware that you're trying to "Run through your Tom scum read" and I even agree with you in that the post where Tom drops Pozzai well and truly behind the other two in his scum reads is a decent point, that said lots of the other reasoning you're presenting here are attempting to fit reasoning to match the read rather than determing the read based on reasoning.
Reg: I thought the rest of tom's read being inconsistent on Pozz, then kinda jumping on the wagon d2 was a decent point as well. I also think that tom is hiding behind the playstyle to justify not interacting with scumbuddies. I guess the second thing isn't proveable though.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
Yeah I'm not buying DV's Post #1310 at all, he's at L-2 -- not even close to a lynch so that reaction makes no sense as town.
@Killjoy - 1) Iso's current stated scum reads are You/Tom/DV & Maybe Empoof, he's not insisting that You+Tom have to be a scum team at all so your insistence that he needs to reasses that stance is one that looks overdefensive and 2) I'm aware that you're trying to "Run through your Tom scum read" and I even agree with you in that the post where Tom drops Pozzai well and truly behind the other two in his scum reads is a decent point, that said lots of the other reasoning you're presenting here are attempting to fit reasoning to match the read rather than determing the read based on reasoning.
We've talked about hammering him aggressively. I don't think he would be shrugging his shoulders in his position as town but to say that he's "not even close to a lynch" is a stretch.
No I do not think they're partners but Reg makes a decent point re: DV so I'm hedging on better players being better here. I think Tom is scum. Only Iso (who could also be scum but isn't because Vig) agrees. So, the company I'm keeping here is making me doubt a bit.
Not that tom is scum, mind you, but just my reasons being things that make people scum.
Like if I thought that typing words made someone scum, he is typing words therefore scum. But typing words is not a scumtell, but I just don't believe people telling me that.
Maybe Reg is right and I'm grossly misintepreting what's happening here.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
@Killjoy
Why would I need to justify not interacting with buddies? I'm not supposed to talk about my scumgame in this persona, but...
We were buddies in Mindscrew and had awesome interactions. You just got lynched by me and my buddy megs in Lights Out working together. I've never had a problem with that and you know it. I think part of my problem is that you're picking and choosing where to use meta. Here I'm hiding behind the playstyle. There I'm doing this thing generic scum would do. Here it's what you'd expect me to do.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
Iso is scum for many reasons. He is town for one. That's where I am with Iso right now.
This, however, I appreciate.
I have to say though. It must be really awkward to be you right now. You and I are the strongest voices in the thread about how scummy Iso is. And you and Iso are the main people calling me scum. But you're willing to compromise on DV who isn't doing anything but just called me and Iso scum.
Reg: I thought the rest of tom's read being inconsistent on Pozz, then kinda jumping on the wagon d2 was a decent point as well. I also think that tom is hiding behind the playstyle to justify not interacting with scumbuddies. I guess the second thing isn't proveable though.
Outside of that singular post I don't think Toms read on Pozzai was anywhere near as inconsistent as you're making it out ot be; he constantly had Pozzai within his top three scum reads and voted him during both D1 & D2 at different times, I find most of his progression on that read very natural and think if anything his interactions overall point more towards him being town than scum. I think your second point re; him hiding behind the playstyle is blatantly untrue in that he's still shared his own reads and thoughts on players, he's not used that to excuse providing stances and content; the "Not interacting with scum reads" stance is indeed one that Voxx has and therefore him using it at points here just fits with his pre-game decision and isn't really alignment indicative.
We've talked about hammering him aggressively. I don't think he would be shrugging his shoulders in his position as town but to say that he's "not even close to a lynch" is a stretch.
That's not how I read his post; I didn't read it as "I'm inevitably getting lynched" but moreso him pretending that he thought he already was; timing of the post suggests such as well in that it was very soon after I voted him and Tom "Revoted" him. The fact that his read on Vaimes vanishes entirely in that post despite him focusing the most on him inside the room and that his read on Nacho similarly vanishes points more towards him being scum here too.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
Reg: I thought the rest of tom's read being inconsistent on Pozz, then kinda jumping on the wagon d2 was a decent point as well. I also think that tom is hiding behind the playstyle to justify not interacting with scumbuddies. I guess the second thing isn't proveable though.
Outside of that singular post I don't think Toms read on Pozzai was anywhere near as inconsistent as you're making it out ot be; he constantly had Pozzai within his top three scum reads and voted him during both D1 & D2 at different times, I find most of his progression on that read very natural and think if anything his interactions overall point more towards him being town than scum. I think your second point re; him hiding behind the playstyle is blatantly untrue in that he's still shared his own reads and thoughts on players, he's not used that to excuse providing stances and content; the "Not interacting with scum reads" stance is indeed one that Voxx has and therefore him using it at points here just fits with his pre-game decision and isn't really alignment indicative.
We've talked about hammering him aggressively. I don't think he would be shrugging his shoulders in his position as town but to say that he's "not even close to a lynch" is a stretch.
That's not how I read his post; I didn't read it as "I'm inevitably getting lynched" but moreso him pretending that he thought he already was; timing of the post suggests such as well in that it was very soon after I voted him and Tom "Revoted" him. The fact that his read on Vaimes vanishes entirely in that post despite him focusing the most on him inside the room and that his read on Nacho similarly vanishes points more towards him being scum here too.
I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on both of these.
Also never actually played a full gamne with Voxx that I can recall. The ones I do he replaced out without doing anything. I suppose I should have read some of his games before concluding things, but there it is.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
I don't use meta. Ever. It's too unreliable. That's why I looked at your play THIS GAME FROM NO OTHER GAME and saw that's what you were doing.
That's so bizarre though, because my play this game has been objectively townie. Ask... everyone who has read the thread. Yeah everyone but DV and Iso.
Like... ok if you're town. You're maybe just seeing that I'm faking something? And realistically doing a "C+" to "B" job of it. That's the only thing I can think of. I read your posts about me and it's just the scummiest possible interpretation of everything I've said. And it's just so wrong. I don't want to just ignore you like the wastes of slots that are DV and Iso, but I'm not gonna go through the posts that only you have a problem with and try to remember my inner turmoil of my gut and what Voxx would do. Maybe it would help to envision me with a solo mentor chat where I *****post and the other me tells me to slow down and stick to the plan?
I don't want to give up on you Killjoy. OG tom wants you to be town so I still might get a chance to lynch Iso. But neither me nor anyone else in this game would be able to figure it out if you keep wasting brainpower scumreading me.
@Killjoy - I've spoken with Voxx about mafia theory a good portion as well as spoken with Newcomb before this game about Voxx and him being a player that a) Hunts for town and b) Attempts to minimise communication with scum reads are both things that I know are true about him therefore Tom doing both of these inside the game isn't alignment indicative, it's just him taking on board the style. Lets try it a different way; ignore the playstyle alone and instead what reads & reasoning of Toms do you find scummy? Because his reads and reasoning throughout the entire game have mirrored mine at multiple stages and have found his thought process and transparency very town.
I'm about to head out for a few hours, will probably dump some last thoughts when I get back (Assuming I don't get too drunk) but I'm pretty fine with giving Nacho his present here.
Also never actually played a full gamne with Voxx that I can recall. The ones I do he replaced out without doing anything. I suppose I should have read some of his games before concluding things, but there it is.
I don't use meta. Ever. It's too unreliable. That's why I looked at your play THIS GAME FROM NO OTHER GAME and saw that's what you were doing.
That's so bizarre though, because my play this game has been objectively townie. Ask... everyone who has read the thread. Yeah everyone but DV and Iso.
Like... ok if you're town. You're maybe just seeing that I'm faking something? And realistically doing a "C+" to "B" job of it. That's the only thing I can think of. I read your posts about me and it's just the scummiest possible interpretation of everything I've said. And it's just so wrong. I don't want to just ignore you like the wastes of slots that are DV and Iso, but I'm not gonna go through the posts that only you have a problem with and try to remember my inner turmoil of my gut and what Voxx would do. Maybe it would help to envision me with a solo mentor chat where I *****post and the other me tells me to slow down and stick to the plan?
I don't want to give up on you Killjoy. OG tom wants you to be town so I still might get a chance to lynch Iso. But neither me nor anyone else in this game would be able to figure it out if you keep wasting brainpower scumreading me.
Well maybe I'm just that bad at this.
Maybe I should just call everyone scum so I can maybe be right some of the time.
@Killjoy - I've spoken with Voxx about mafia theory a good portion as well as spoken with Newcomb before this game about Voxx and him being a player that a) Hunts for town and b) Attempts to minimise communication with scum reads are both things that I know are true about him therefore Tom doing both of these inside the game isn't alignment indicative, it's just him taking on board the style. Lets try it a different way; ignore the playstyle alone and instead what reads & reasoning of Toms do you find scummy? Because his reads and reasoning throughout the entire game have mirrored mine at multiple stages and have found his thought process and transparency very town.
Everything I saw I put in those two posts. If there's nothing in there that say "this reasoning is bad" then I didn't think it was bad.
Also never actually played a full gamne with Voxx that I can recall. The ones I do he replaced out without doing anything. I suppose I should have read some of his games before concluding things, but there it is.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
Home & about to head to bed but here's where I'm at re; Nacho.
I like his response towards Isos request to be in a townblock inside Post #310 and his reasoning and read on Pozzai inside Post #316 points towards him being town. Newcombs point about Nachos read inside Post #321 about X=Y not matching his following posts ie. his Post #385 is a solid one and I also don't like how soft the Pozzai scum read feels inside this post that said his response to Newcomb inside Post #400 feels much more genuine. I liked him coming out against Newcomb about the Monte Diamond thing inside Post #479 since it's similarly not a way I read Tom and like almost everything inside Post #486 and his interaction with Pozzai inside Post #570 doesn't look like one with a partner, same goes for his vote on Pozzai inside Post #690. His interactions with Newcomb D2 still read town specifically the first two paragraphs inside Post #699 and the way the interaction ends with Nacho voting Pozzai inside Post #806 reads very town especially with the followed up case on him isnide Post #957 where he brings up a few new points that I hadn't noticed myself. Him wanting to interact with me about the Killjoy slot inside Post #1085 and then never really bringing it up today is concerning and I disliked his unvote wanting a counterclaim inside Post #1146 while agreeing with the reasoning behind Pozzai being scum inside Post #1153 can understand cautiousness wanting to be shown at times but the fact that both a) He had a strong scum read on Pozzai preclaim and b) He agreed with the reasoning behind the claim making him scum were the case makes the unvote there have some scum motivation behind it. I think he's probably just town here but aren't as confident in it as I am with some others.
On this DAY, once per YEAR, a LIGHT shines through a CURIOUS HOLE in the AUBURN CLIFFS, straight into an ANCIENT CRYSTAL placed there long ago. If you were to look at the REFLECTION, it might look something like this:
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
Actually, I agree with this, which is why I came into toDay considering tom for scum. He seemed pretty gung-ho about the Pozzai lynch early in the game but then when the time came to lynch him, he just sort of...balked. Especially when I came out with my reasoning for voting Pozzai. (Granted, I didn't actually consider that the scum would have killed Grapefruit, because I thought he was the farthest thing from obvtown. But YMMV, I guess, and the results justified the push.)
Oh. I missed this earlier as part of my "ignore Iso until massclaims say I can lynch him or until he stops being awful" policy.
That... didn't happen. I did not balk at lynching Pozzai. And was already voting him when you came out with your reasoning.
It certainly felt like you were distancing yourself from the wagon at one point, possibly to convince other people to hop off without doing so yourself!
WEll I'm Town, Tom and Iso are people to look at after I flip.
Sorry for my absence but I'm currently in the race for 100 so that took priority.
I'm someone that should be looked at for...what reasons, exactly?
-
@Killjoy: Please, enlighten me: Why must I go into detail on why I disagree with Empoof's assessment of the gamestate? I gave an extremely simple explanation and that should be sufficient enough for you to understand. Also, were you planning on addressing any of the accusations I've levied towards your abrupt mindset shift, or were you just going to ignore that?
"I'll brag about catching tom when no one else did." Excuse me? Do I not exist any more?
Also, please explain the inconsistency in your mindset regarding me. You came into the thread shouting about how I was scum because I claimed Vig...and now you're saying that I'm town for only one reason, which I can only assume is because I'm Vig. So which is it?
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
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Also RegFan specifically put me more at ease about Vaimes. I'm guessing his meta is easy to follow.
I'll read nacho tonight after dinner I think.
His pushes are bad and he's bad hmmmk
For him to come in and say that that's why he's getting scum read is laughable
^ l a z y
But I'd like people to give opinions on my Tom thing before we lynch so it doesn't fall by the wayside and then also whoever the scum decide to kill tonight will have commented on it.
I feel like we can lynch you/Killjoy/D_V/maybe Empoof and win. I don't think there's a good chance of any scum outside of those four.
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
In short, I think you're scum for it.
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
Killjoys 'case' on Tom inside Post #1287 doesn't look like him genuinely attemping to determine Toms alignment but rather twist his posts and comments to make them look scummy; the fact it begins with attempting to draw a comparison between the "Look for town, don't interact with scum so much" playstyle and a RVS vote points to as much. His attempt at spinning the timing of Toms vote on Pozzai as scummy is hugely problematic in that the "People were scumreading him" type reasoning can be attached to most periods in the game. There's no reassessment, no consideration of the read being potentially wrong at all, it's just attempting to paint everything in a bad light.
@Tom - Fair warning, about the only thing of yours I really disagree with is that DV/Nacho are never a scum team, I think it's unlikely based on how Typhon/Nacho interacted and Nachos push on Typhon D1 as well as DV D2 but I think DV just laying down to the lynch here would make sense if it's because he thinks his partner wins the game from it, admittedly it's a pretty tinfoily thought but just not something I want ruled out completely.
@Empoof - I think the odds of a Vaimes/Nacho world are near zero in that a) I'm pretty certain Vaimes is town here based on his play so far and if Newcombs left a wrong read on Vaimes I"ll just blame him postgame and b) I don't think Nacho&Vaimes as scum together attempt to both push on and mslynch Newcomb inside a playerlist like this; plus I'm pretty confident we're in a world where DV's just scum here.
I'm happy to give Nacho his birthday present.
Vote: DV
Since the above post will just be another vote of mine that doesn't count. Think that's L-2 from my count.
Iso, if you're still around and have a few spare minutes would appreciate you briefly ISO'ing Pozzais early game posts and seeing if you can tell me what specifically of his you town read him for. I'd also love your town read on Nacho elaborated on given your recent "Kill these 4 and win" doesn't involve him and I don't share the superstrong town read there.
I'll probably be off and on for the next few hours if anyone wants to chat, probably will just be perusing through Nachos ISO though.
@Regfan: Gotta get up for work in 3 > hours. No dice.
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
Additionally, you don't necessarily even have to be scum together.
You're just flailing at this point.
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
Maybe it was an exceptionally vicious bus. I don't think so, but I can see it if I squint. Seems more likely to just be Nacho catching scum.
Vote: D_V
Making sure it counted.
But you did say it was tinfoil world and I can see why you would tinfoil on something like that. Nacho can be scary.
Oh. I missed this earlier as part of my "ignore Iso until massclaims say I can lynch him or until he stops being awful" policy.
That... didn't happen. I did not balk at lynching Pozzai. And was already voting him when you came out with your reasoning.
@Iso - Fair, willing to wait until tomorrow, sidenote; 3 hours sleep isn't healthy to live on, did it for a while and it was very harmful.
@Tom - Yeah, it's very probably not the team, I just don't want it entirely ruled out given it'd make sense with DVs entire absence here.
Sorry for my absence but I'm currently in the race for 100 so that took priority.
I am not saying Iso isn't scum for doing that. He's being non-commital, so that's a scum thing. But that's not what I am saying with THIS.
Iso is scum for many reasons. He is town for one. That's where I am with Iso right now. Again, not relevent to the you/DV world thing I am saying.
Dude, I was restating what I said earlier. Remember how you said that some of it didn't make sense? Yeah, I expanded on that, this time with specific examples.
We are both scum reads of yours. Empoof's opinion is that me and he are not both scum.
Therefore, one of those reads must be wrong if you believe Empoof is correct on this. If you don't, you must explain why he's not.
Why would I flail because people don't seem to understand my case on tom? That's dumb.
Also, just shoot me tonight Iso, if you're actually the Vig. Since apperently you think I'm scum, that should ease your mind.
I look forward to bragging that I caught tom in the postgame when no one else did.
I'll hammer when more people comment on my thing.I guess DV is good enough of a lynch today, though tom IS ABSOLUTELY SCUM and no one seems to see it.
Nice gig he has going there, able to pretend scum things he does are because of his playstyle. Whatevers.
@Killjoy - 1) Iso's current stated scum reads are You/Tom/DV & Maybe Empoof, he's not insisting that You+Tom have to be a scum team at all so your insistence that he needs to reasses that stance is one that looks overdefensive and 2) I'm aware that you're trying to "Run through your Tom scum read" and I even agree with you in that the post where Tom drops Pozzai well and truly behind the other two in his scum reads is a decent point, that said lots of the other reasoning you're presenting here are attempting to fit reasoning to match the read rather than determing the read based on reasoning.
If I am absolutely scum and you don't think I'm scum with DV, why is he a good enough lynch for you today?
Well someone has strong opinions.
Don't see why my opinion about you guys is relevant to iso at all.
Echo tom about why you're satisfied with a DV lynch if tom is ~absolutely scum. Doyouthinktheirpartners.jpg
Reg: I thought the rest of tom's read being inconsistent on Pozz, then kinda jumping on the wagon d2 was a decent point as well. I also think that tom is hiding behind the playstyle to justify not interacting with scumbuddies. I guess the second thing isn't proveable though.
Not that tom is scum, mind you, but just my reasons being things that make people scum.
Like if I thought that typing words made someone scum, he is typing words therefore scum. But typing words is not a scumtell, but I just don't believe people telling me that.
Maybe Reg is right and I'm grossly misintepreting what's happening here.
Why would I need to justify not interacting with buddies? I'm not supposed to talk about my scumgame in this persona, but...
We were buddies in Mindscrew and had awesome interactions. You just got lynched by me and my buddy megs in Lights Out working together. I've never had a problem with that and you know it. I think part of my problem is that you're picking and choosing where to use meta. Here I'm hiding behind the playstyle. There I'm doing this thing generic scum would do. Here it's what you'd expect me to do.
This, however, I appreciate.
I have to say though. It must be really awkward to be you right now. You and I are the strongest voices in the thread about how scummy Iso is. And you and Iso are the main people calling me scum. But you're willing to compromise on DV who isn't doing anything but just called me and Iso scum.
Discuss.
That's not how I read his post; I didn't read it as "I'm inevitably getting lynched" but moreso him pretending that he thought he already was; timing of the post suggests such as well in that it was very soon after I voted him and Tom "Revoted" him. The fact that his read on Vaimes vanishes entirely in that post despite him focusing the most on him inside the room and that his read on Nacho similarly vanishes points more towards him being scum here too.
Also never actually played a full gamne with Voxx that I can recall. The ones I do he replaced out without doing anything. I suppose I should have read some of his games before concluding things, but there it is.
That's so bizarre though, because my play this game has been objectively townie. Ask... everyone who has read the thread. Yeah everyone but DV and Iso.
Like... ok if you're town. You're maybe just seeing that I'm faking something? And realistically doing a "C+" to "B" job of it. That's the only thing I can think of. I read your posts about me and it's just the scummiest possible interpretation of everything I've said. And it's just so wrong. I don't want to just ignore you like the wastes of slots that are DV and Iso, but I'm not gonna go through the posts that only you have a problem with and try to remember my inner turmoil of my gut and what Voxx would do. Maybe it would help to envision me with a solo mentor chat where I *****post and the other me tells me to slow down and stick to the plan?
I don't want to give up on you Killjoy. OG tom wants you to be town so I still might get a chance to lynch Iso. But neither me nor anyone else in this game would be able to figure it out if you keep wasting brainpower scumreading me.
Here, have a bookmarks folder:
WWE iso
ZDS' Normal iso
Invitational iso
SG1 iso
Goldeneye iso
Maybe I should just call everyone scum so I can maybe be right some of the time.
IDK.
Everything I saw I put in those two posts. If there's nothing in there that say "this reasoning is bad" then I didn't think it was bad.
Ok so I guess you're mimicing the playstyle pretty well then.
Eh. I've strayed a fair amount. But the general essence is there.
I like his response towards Isos request to be in a townblock inside Post #310 and his reasoning and read on Pozzai inside Post #316 points towards him being town. Newcombs point about Nachos read inside Post #321 about X=Y not matching his following posts ie. his Post #385 is a solid one and I also don't like how soft the Pozzai scum read feels inside this post that said his response to Newcomb inside Post #400 feels much more genuine. I liked him coming out against Newcomb about the Monte Diamond thing inside Post #479 since it's similarly not a way I read Tom and like almost everything inside Post #486 and his interaction with Pozzai inside Post #570 doesn't look like one with a partner, same goes for his vote on Pozzai inside Post #690. His interactions with Newcomb D2 still read town specifically the first two paragraphs inside Post #699 and the way the interaction ends with Nacho voting Pozzai inside Post #806 reads very town especially with the followed up case on him isnide Post #957 where he brings up a few new points that I hadn't noticed myself. Him wanting to interact with me about the Killjoy slot inside Post #1085 and then never really bringing it up today is concerning and I disliked his unvote wanting a counterclaim inside Post #1146 while agreeing with the reasoning behind Pozzai being scum inside Post #1153 can understand cautiousness wanting to be shown at times but the fact that both a) He had a strong scum read on Pozzai preclaim and b) He agreed with the reasoning behind the claim making him scum were the case makes the unvote there have some scum motivation behind it. I think he's probably just town here but aren't as confident in it as I am with some others.
VOTECOUNT
D_V - 4 (Vaimes, Nachomamma8, Regfan, tomsloger) (L-1)
Killjoy - 1 (Iso)
tomsloger - 1 (Killjoy)
Not Voting - 2 (D_V, Empoof)
...you FEEL as though the LIGHT is MISSING SOMETHING, yet for some REASON that only fills you with RELIEF.
Tom, explain the difference between objectively town and widely town read please.
Also ISO is scum even if he's big
Well I didn't need to know the intimate nature of your relationship but I'll keep that in mind.
Tom was saying he was being objectively townie, and that this lead to him being widely town read.
It certainly felt like you were distancing yourself from the wagon at one point, possibly to convince other people to hop off without doing so yourself!
I'm someone that should be looked at for...what reasons, exactly?
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@Killjoy: Please, enlighten me: Why must I go into detail on why I disagree with Empoof's assessment of the gamestate? I gave an extremely simple explanation and that should be sufficient enough for you to understand. Also, were you planning on addressing any of the accusations I've levied towards your abrupt mindset shift, or were you just going to ignore that?
"I'll brag about catching tom when no one else did." Excuse me? Do I not exist any more?
Also, please explain the inconsistency in your mindset regarding me. You came into the thread shouting about how I was scum because I claimed Vig...and now you're saying that I'm town for only one reason, which I can only assume is because I'm Vig. So which is it?
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player