Regfan's question to you is basically in that situation "can I push on Pozzai for this reason without it backfiring" to which your answer (again paraphrased) is "I don't think that reason is alignment indicative of Pozzai" after which he votes.
If he's afraid of a backlash, that question fits much better in scumchat, if it's an interaction that Regfan wants to have with a partner in chat, I'd expect their to be a deeper purpose in the outcome. Be that an argument between the two of you, you seemingly convincing him otherwise on his read, just, anything?
There lacks an actual purpose behind the interaction from a w/w interaction, it is not to get you to speak, because you'd already been one of the more active, it was not to somehow create a chasm between the two of you, because neither of you strongly confronted the reads/reasonings, as in 'attempted' to make a deal out of it.
So in short, I consider it along the same lines as "too wolfy to be wolf", "too clumsy to be wolfies", as it lacks any sort of purpose in a w/w scenario.
Hum. I don't really /agree/ with your reasoning here, kind of predicated on that fact that you have both too narrow a range of what you consider potentially w/w and too high an expectation for the purpose of those interactions altogether, but I can at least follow your thought process here. Like, what you're saying tracks based on what Reg and I said if you apply those criteria to it.
What is your current take on Reg, actually? He's probably the person you've interacted with most ITT, you're his top suspect. So. Is he trying to get you mislynched, or is he just a tragically misguided towny?
I don't think that you ever enter a game expecting a person to basically play 180 compared to videomafia. I don't disagree with the premise there are differences, but I find it hard to swallow he'd expect me to be a completely different player from it.
I found it awkward he turned to you(didn't know your relation) as opposed to Delphine for a read, and didn't like his response of him wanting to wait to see if Delphine would get around to it herself, when he literally asked her shortly after.
I strongly dislike that instead of attempting to determine WHAT I got out of my questions, he just went for the assumption they're meaningless. The experience I have with him, again from videomafia, such things actually intrigue him, he's curious about them, here he's just ignoring them. This was okay at the point of his initial vote on me, as he could be fishing for reactions etc, but the fact he still hasn't asked and kept them as blanket statements irks me, he's not actively trying to figure out if he's wrong, not trying to determine my alignment, just stating it over and over again.
His handling your response was fairly underwhelming, I'd have expected a more aggressive stance on you in regards to disagreeing with his points(but not necessarily his read) than what he showed. The reaction to me didn't mirror the question.
Like, he's been focussed around Iso's read on me, potential partner not knowing what townpoints he can push, but he ignores the fact that it could be the same with you, where a scum!Newcomb doesn't have enough ammo to push scum!Pozzai as town, and just goes with "well, uhm, those exact points is probably null for my buddy".
I think there was a few more things but as head's been focused elsewhere the last handful of days it's a bit fussy to me right now.
I have liked a few of the things he's done here and there, but overall I strongly suspect him of being mafia, hence why my vote is still on him.
@Iso and @Regfan I have never interacted with Iso before this game but because I have too much time I have read 5 completed games he's been in. 3 Mini's in Off the Grid 2 where he was scum and TF2 where he was town, and Titanic Ultimatum where he was town but it was a weird conversion variant.
I also read the invitational where he solved the entire game on D1 but was pretty much posting exactly like this until later in the game, differene is his reads were right there. Lastly I read murders in townville where he was town. I've also read through his Electron cloud explanation post in the theory chat a few times.
Quote from Newcomb »
A) Pozzai town, Regfan town
B) Pozzai wolf, Regfan town
C) Pozzai town, Regfan wolf
D) Pozzai wolf, Regfan wolf
Please assign a % chance to each option. Extra credit: show your work.
A)60%
B)30%
C)10%
D)0%
I'm going to skimp on work showing for now.
@Newcomb Can you explain Delphi read just a bit more because I'm not seeing it at all even rereading what they were saying about you.
@Pozzai reading your posts makes me feel a bit slow because I'm not comprehending your Regfan case at all. Can you explain it to me in simple terms? What I got out of it is that you don't like how he skips asking you why you asked questions and he's making a case and behaving in the same way to the behavior that he's calling out. But I have no idea if I'm parsing that correctly.
@Pozzai - I've repeatedly stated I don't think DM & FM have any real relevance at all, I don't think your play/meta there (And it's also a very limited meta I have given we were only in 2 games and I've seen few more) impact my read on you at all; the fact that you're constantly pushing that it should is super disingenuous. I asked Delphine for her reads (in general) first off, wanted to see if she got to you herself, when she only commented on Newcomb I asked her about yourself given your history together; this should be a fairly understandable route that I took.
I again still don't think your line of questioning and interacting are you attempting to get reads or focusing on the actual relevant and alignment indicative sections of peoples posts (And no, I don't need to question why you've asked each question to think that), it's flat out a case of I don't think you're commenting on important topics inside the game; more recent example is that I don't think you focusing on why I questioned Newcomb before asking Delphi about their read on you is a real alignment indicative stance when it's pretty clear that I've been interacting and questioning Newcomb the most out of everyone inside the thread. I'm asking and pushing for Isos stance and reasoning on yourself to get a better read on Iso; that's largely the intention behind the questioning, I don't think focusing overly on that section with Newcomb will be what helps solidify my read on him. If you're actually town here I need to see genuine analysis from you, your read and stance on X=Y or the wagon on him at the moment, your thoughts on Nacho or Tom. Pretty much if you'e town I need to be able to see it from your posts because so far nothing has come across as genuine or gamesolving.
Grapefruit's percentages seem pretty close, though I don't think anything is 0% on day 1. 55-30-10-5, with A being the statistical default and Pozzai seeming scummier than Regfan by miles.
The biggest issue I have with Pozzai is not what he has said, but what he hasn't. I never feel like he's talking about what I think he should be.
@Iso - I could say the same thing about a Pozzai flip providing information and changing the gamestate as well? If you don't want to re-read what you town read about him earlier at least comment on his more recent posting; I don't find his interaction with myself and questioning to come across as him trying to gamesolve at all.
Well, no, because if Pozzai flips town, that tells me literally nothing about the gamestate I didn't already suspect AND I'm still going to want to lynch X=Y because I won't have been able to reconsider the gamestate without him dead. All you're doing is wasting a Day and one of our mislynches, here, if Pozzai is town.
@Newcomb - Can you run me through exactly where you're at with Ophidia/Nacho/Iso (Don't need hugely detailed sections on each, just a quick summary) since I'd say they're my more iffy reads that we're not gone into as much detail about.
Iso I've got nothing on. He fits on literally any scumteam, and he's not backing up his reads with analysis, so at this point he's an almost inevitable PoE lynch. I'll grant Nacho the "oh wait it's a basic, not 4 scum" thing is prooooobably a little cheesy to fake as a wolf here, but.
Are you just...not thinking critically about my play in this game? I mean, I guess it's adorable that you think I'll ever be lynched, here, but okay.
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
... the vibe I got was that you were dropping a bombshell, something profound, like you really had something. Since I do not see that, at all, in the posts you're quoting to make that read, I'm having trouble seeing it as genuine and not as a lazy townread of someone who must seem pretty blindingly town if you're a wolf and already know they are.
If your criticism that his reason for townreading Grapefruit there is a little silly, then you're right on the money. The assertion that his preface somehow makes it scummier than it would be otherwise is not something that I follow all that well.
I remember you posting the Monte Diamond somewhere else in the game, but Tom caring about the game/seeming like he's caring all the game is never how I've read him in the past. I'll probably respond in full to this piece of reasoning once I find the damn thing again.
And I'm Barning your 179 because that was what I was trying to get at about tom and referring to as opportunistic. Just better articulated than I can manage.
Could you explain how "he acted like he was dropping hot fire and instead dropped hot garbage" is equivalent to being opportunistic with a townread?
Or even how the two things are similar?
I dislike Pozzais focus on Tom altering his playstyle in #126 and #129, him ignoring the mentions earlier that this was preplanned from Tom and very much null is a huge thing to miss given the conversation was already had with Vaimes earlier. His accusation that Toms made this change purposefully to get away with giving away more town reads as mafia is one that makes very little sense. Really none of his catch up flurry of posts look like him genuinely attempting to sort peoples alignments other than maaybe his question to Delphine in #125 and I'm not a huge fan of that either.
I actually like Ophidias #149, I think the attitude of "Ask me questions so I can learn to analyse" is more likely to come from newtown than newscum. Also think him coming out of Newcombs questions with the opposite alignment than most people on Grapefruit is something unlikely for scum to do, they'd know it leads towards more focus.
I like that you zeroed in on the same thing about Pozzai that I did; as of right now (haven't read anything else from him) seems like the most compelling reason to vote him.
I don't think Ophidia's "Ask me questions so I can learn to analyze" is particularly alignment indicative; I've seen scum plenty of times as townies or partners to guide their posting by making people hold their hands to get there, which is mostly what bothered me about Ophidia's opening. I very much agree that coming out of the guided Newcomb tour of Grapefruit with a scum read when he was universal town is a strong town tell; Ophidia if scum would be the type who didn't really know how to produce novel content of his own and pushing back against the universal townread there goes against that 100%. It also might be silly on my part, but I actually thought that his response to Vaimes's scum QT comment was pretty town-looking; I think that's a situation that is awkward to be put in as scum and requires a good confidence as scum that I'm not quite sure he has yet based on general new-looking posting and Tom's commentary on his scumgame in the Assassins in the Palace game.
As to your uneasiness with my approach to you earlier, what did you expect my approach would evolve into after the initial joke push?
What about your posts to that point were town enough to be outside of your scumrange? What should I have picked up on that I didn't?
Oops. I did not mean what I said. i meant to say that your townread seems too friendly and provides less scrutiny, which lead to the feeling of teaming up with others. I am sure there is a mafia word for that, but I am not sure which.
Pocketing is when a scum player townreads a town player for the purpose of being townread.
What makes you think that it was too friendly over just a normal townread? Do you agree with Newcomb that the viewpoint was too shallow to be genuine?
I like DelphiBlue's attempt to read Regfan at the bottom of Page 4, for the most part. In particular, I thought bringing up the "Tom town read seems like him being excited more about the playstyle as opposed to make a legitimate read" and the "he didn't take into account that Nacho was joking about Regfan lynching pre-game" points were novel, and I don't think that scum!Delphi would angle for paranoia at town!Regfan at this point because he's clearly active enough where there's not a chance in hell that he gets mislynched.
I also picked up on Regfan feeling excited about Tom's playstyle but I disagree that he's townreading Tom via playstyle alone; I think he's excited about it because it's made Tom agree with him more; I also follow his point about mindmelding with someone who you don't typically mindmeld with being a towntell, considering that if they don't typically mindmeld with you then you probably don't think in a same way (which makes mindmelding as scum easier), which increases the chance that the thing they're picking up on is genuine, if that makes sense despite my poor, Tammy-like attempt at describing it although apparently as I'm reading on I assumed Regfan's thought process re: bringing that up was different than it was.
Ophidias empty RVS vote while ignoring everything else in Post #37 is something I still think is more likely to come from scum. I liked Ophidias Post #154 particularly his answer about Grape, I like his question Newcomb as to why those posts were picked and think the town read -> scum read change on Grapes inside the post is one that scums unlikely to make given the threads consensus on Grapes. Got a weak town read on him overall.
Is the only thing you disliked from Ophidia at this point was the empty RVS vote early on?
What do you think of the reasons I've brought up for my Ophidia town read (and why it should be stronger than just a weak town read?).
For the most part, am in very strong agreement with Regfan's reads; my "strong town" group swaps Ophidia for Tom and Iso might make it to a very weak townread but otherwise I feel pretty good about Pozzai + X=Y + maybe Typhon but wouldn't be hugely surprised if Iso or Delphi took up the last slot. I don't think that there's any chance Regfan is scum with both Pozzai and Xequals as partners considering he's not leaving himself any way to defend either or get a townie mislynched today, which means Newcomb's "this is either a really easy game or a considerably more complicated one" stands pretty strongly here.
The reads that stand out the most to me from Regfan are his read on me and his read on Tom. His read on Tom I like from him because it reads like there's a pretty decent emotional edge to it; he seems legitimately excited about zeroing on Tom town early and having Tom post in a style he can parse easier. I also like the progression of the read on me; I like how bothered he is by my #111 and think that his problems with the post are more complicated than they might be if he were scum (in this reads post, he focuses on me knowing that he has "too strong" of reads as town and in his response to Delphi he focuses on me not taking a more active role in his initial push, etc). If scum, my expectation would be more that he would focus on the "you know my game and you should know I'm town more than anyone else" and his coming up with additional reasons for it in later posts to me shows that he's thinking about it when he's not posting which to me is a decent indicator of Regfan!town.
I don't like his read on Delphi - that in particular is a read that I hoped Regfan would help me sort and while I can understand not having a read on her at this juncture because she certainly hasn't done much I was hoping that he would press her to become a little more readable.
Newcomb, to address a recent post of yours, I don't think that Regfan-Pozzai interactions make them lock not w/w, but from Regfan's side at least hammering as hard as he did and as early as he did seems kind of dickish and probably wouldn't happen unless he had confidence in partner #2 (which for me says you/Tom /Vaimes) or if he thought Pozzai was likely to be able to talk himself out of it. I don't really feel like doing a percentage for it, though.
I don't really like Typhrous's attack on X=Y in 209, it's weak and focuses on some weird things that I'm having trouble seeing town legitimately scumread. For one, I don't like the "scum post less than town" tell; for one, attacking someone for not posting in general is the epitome of a shallow attack, and for two, I don't really think that X=Y's lurking was close to problematic and I think there were many worse offenders (Typhrous himself included). I don't like the interrogation over the vote in post #9 (why me over 12 other people????) and I don't like the attack on Post #89; his first question to Grapefruit was completely fine and seemed to be pointing out that people having an early townread on Grapefruit didn't mean that people were never going to reevaluate and the second while not revolutionary certainly wasn't deserving of the "can you run me through your mindset here??" question.
Can't say I like the Ophidia push in 211, either; the idea that someone is saying that they're new a bunch of times so they won't be held to the standards that experienced players are being held to seems kind of silly? I'd have less issue if Typhrous took the angle that Ophidia was overly nervous and that's what causes the "I'm a newbie!" mantra everywhere but this angle seems like a pretty harsh stretch.
@Nacho A lot has been made of Reg's opening where he threw down a town read on you. He's appealed to meta a bit there wrt to you - does that track from your perspective? You talked about it at one point, but it wasn't apparent if you we saying what you understood tom to be saying to Vaimes, or if your actual opinion is that town!Reg would have been more cautious. How are you reading Reg currently?
I've explained my perspective on him in my last post, but I don't think that his opening was strong town as he's seemed to imply by some of his responses to me; I think some of his stronger towntells are in his progressions which have recently started to unfold. I don't necessarily think that him expecting to look townier than he is is a scumtell; Regfan, like Tammy and Empire, tend to underestimate their own scumrange slightly and can end up feeling like they are townier than they actually should be, if that makes sense.
So, let's start with my Newcomb read. I think that his posts overall come off as someone who is having fun solving, and thus reverting back to their normal town meta despite professing a desire to change their play. In #68 I liked that he flowed out of memedom pretty earlier than I think the guilt would onset as scum and in #76 I liked that he has a real smugness/apparent "I am town and drunk with power" attitude toward Vaimes, even if his explanation of the test is a bit overexplainy/disgustingly self-aware.
When I am scum, I occasionally feel more obligated to swing out of not-serious mode earlier as opposed to later because I tend to be more apprehensive out of digging out of holes when scum than town; it's completely instinctive and based on nothing at all, but I feel Newcomb might approach that situation similarly and thus I don't really townread him for reverting to normal play earlier than he planned.
I think his approach to Vaimes is reasonable but not something I really townread; in later posts I like how he veers from 95% town to maybe a little less town when he talks about Vaimes folding D2 because it shows progression and Newcomb probably isn't doing anything but townreading Vaimes this game as scum but I didn't pick up on anything good in his early approach.
Re: 224:
What does seeing Tom get mislynched for fake reads have to do with town reads advancing the game state?
Did you bring up him getting mislynched for fake reads before as a point that shallow reads aren't necessarily scummy, or...?
Typhrous's followup questions to Ophidia look a hell of a lot better than his initial approach (225).
I don't like X=Y's vote on Iso in post #226; it seems like a cop out vote to vote someone because they haven't explained their reads yet and I don't like how X=Y doesn't really try to offer any conclusions in what he's posted so far.
Will also point out that Pozzai not understanding that Tom was mimicking someone else wasn't the scummy part of his posting and don't really remember Regfan making that point although I could completely be wrong; the scummy part of Pozzai's interaction with Tom was the fact that he tried to use changing his playstyle against him even though it's something that obviously isn't scummy at all.
Pozzai, I don't understand what you were trying to say in 235; why wouldn't you pay attention to Regfan early day 1 and how is page 5 not early day 1...?
I don't like his attack in 236, either; while I don't mind the video mafia reference (it's silly but it's something people do), "I keep my cards close to my chest" is nowhere near a rebuttal for "your attempts to sort people right now don't look genuine".
I kind of like Delphi's commentary on Tom's 56 in 238 even though I disagree with her general point on it (I think it was a fine commentary on the gamestate at that point; probably pulled the trigger on it early but don't really care about it that much), but it seems like a really weird angle of attack from scum, and I like that she talks about trying to Google the reference in order to find it.
And again 239 seems to be completely missing the point unless I'm really really bad at reading unless he's claiming that he always has focus on things that have nothing to do with alignment in every game.
I miss when Vaimes posted a lot; still love his early posting enough where I'm not yet concerned but I might need to do some rereading before bed to keep the nightmares away.
I like most of Typhons reasoning behind his Xequals vote in #209 and his reasoning behind scum reading Ophidia in #211, think the point about the over-mention of being new is a solid one. Also like the follow up questioning directed to Ophidia.
I'm going to need you to explain this because I very strongly disagree with it; in what world is "X=Y is lurking, his RVS vote is super scummy, and also those completely OK questions to Grapefruit are totally scummy" a valid or okay case in any sense?
Liking the Ophidia point is more understandable, but I still think it's dumb if not scummy; I think his reasoning for finding the over-mention scummy is completely off-base which for me lends credence to the theory that he just saw Ophidia saying he was new a lot and tried to turn it into a point. I also think that it's the type of reasoning that scum use fairly frequently (and have seen this same reasoning coming from scum in a newbie game) simply because it's a very easy thing to attack.
I don't think that Pozzai skimming is indicative of alignment.
So I do not like 209 and 211 from Typh despite him echoing my scum reads. I dislike his picking apart of X=Y's entrance which felt fairly normal despite not voting in the first post. I also hate using an activity tell this early (or even at all). With Ophidia it's weird that he focuses in on the amount Ophi being new comes up when I'd imagine a similar amount of my posts have a reference to newness as well. Also from games I've read (and Ophi's sig) I get the impression he is just very self conscious about it in general and this player base keeps getting hyped up so I can understand Ophi's leaning on it very naturally as town.
My read on Ophi is entirely tonal and they seem to be playing a different game from what they usually do. See the sass in post 164 as something completely new and different. It doesn't make sense but it just feels like scum Ophi to me.
And suddenly out of time to continue catching up. Will try to later.
In very strong agreement with this post, really really like that Grape picked up on this.
I do think that it makes sense for Ophi to be self-conscious especially in this playerlist which not only is hyped up frequently but also has a bunch of walls flying around which makes the game a lot denser and harder to engage for people uncomfortable with the style.
Re: Pozzai's 262:
Tom saying that he would focus on a town circle doesn't mean that he wasn't going to have scumreads period, and nothing Tom has said or implies really suggests that he's going to avoid giving scumreads so your criticism here continues to seem ridiculous. The fact that you're pushing it as brazenly as you are and Delphi saying she has similar thoughts take off the edge to this point somewhat but I still don't like that your response to Regfan completely missed his point and saw you continuously trying to claim that you holding your reads close to your chest completely nullified you having a weird entrance and I don't like that you're hyperfocusing on the "lack of reads" point and trying to ignore everything else.
I don't think that Iso is scum with X=Y. I agree with Tom that Iso's main approach seems to be "do as much damage as he can before he inevitably goes down", and I don't think Iso as scum would so gleefully throw him under the bus unless he had a plan to do more after he was gone (which is certainly not something that he's posturing to do now). I'm not sure that X=Y's vote on Iso would be so... bad? if they were scum together either because Iso would most certainly let X=Y know that he was bussing him and would help him out a little bit with how to respond unless he's just a dick. If he's trying to clear himself via the X=Y push as scum I don't think that his approach would be as shallow as just pushing him immediately and claiming that he's confirmed town via the flip, but that's just an instinctive sort of thing.
Headed out to eat something, will be back in a bit.
Don't think that I'll have too much time left today so I'll at least try to finish Page 7 for today and hopefully be fully caught up by Wednesday.
Will say that Delphi's point about the Ophidia quote isn't a bad one (I agree that it was odd that he didn't follow up with the ping there considering it seemed like a fairly strong one) although the comparison of games is a weak one; of course Ophidia speaks differently about a strong scumread than a lean town one.
Tom's wall is a pretty good one; I think he brings up an interesting point re: Pozzai in that he's weirdly out of touch with the game despite seeming caught up and seeming decently engaged.
It stings quite a bit that Vaimes would happily lynch me Day 1 even if he doesn't strongly feel that I'm scum
@Newcomb's Newtron Bomb (314) (which makes my "finish page 7" goal a hell of a lot more daunting than it had to be, thanks a lot):
-I don't understand why Pozzai's response to Regfan was loose and silly enough to be a towntell whereas his push on Tom was a scumtell unless I'm missing a section of your reasoning somewhere. I think both instances are examples of Pozzai's approaches just not being believable. In his later interactions with Regfan (I won't dig up the post now but it's roundabout the initial reaction), he also made a big deal of Regfan saying that he found the lack of reads troubling while glossing over the main part of Regfan's point; I find that pretty concerning as it's something that I find both hilarious and effective when I'm scum (hammer at a weak point in a case while ignoring the gist of it). I think that calling you/Regfan not w/w because of the clumsy interaction was strange, yes, but it seems to be the same concept behind your reasoning for townreading Pozzai for the Regfan push.
The only thing you bring up on him that seems town is his questioning of the you/Vaimes relationship which certainly isn't a bad question, but is not something that I think is particularly alignment indicative unless you don't think it's something that he could think of as scum.
-With the read on Tom, I don't really think that the Monte Diamond works for people who have a scum preference and don't understand why that applies to Tom specifically. When I've gotten good, strong reads on him it's mostly due to figuring out whether his approach was genuine or not and think that this is an easier way to read him in this gimmick so I feel you glossing over reading his posts in favor of following the Monte Diamond is silly and would be concerning except Tom apparently thinks that's a decent way to read him. (@Tom: Do you actually agree with the Monte Diamond method? If not, why didn't you correct Newcomb on it?)
I didn't get the impression that Tom was attempting to use Voxx reasoning for things since Tom reasoning is still shining through pretty strongly; I had the impression that Tom was more using posting style and trying to avoid "weird tom reasoning" for things which shouldn't hit the fake/genuine meter as hardly as it is for you (his early townread on Grapefruit and his entire approach to me this game are very distinctly "tom reads").
I didn't think his commentary on Pozzai was bad; lazy, sure, but I definitely wouldn't say bad. The interesting part of what Tom brought up re: Pozzai is that Pozzai has enough posts/has been around enough to be engaged and yet his overall efforts to engage with the gamestate are pretty piss poor, which could have something to do with his "keeping cards close to his chest" thing but also aren't backed up by his questions seeming to lead to anywhere useful.
Parts where I feel Tom looks pretty town is in his Iso push; I know Stargate was a while ago and he's improved a lot since then, but I still feel like interacting as scum with someone who you respect a lot and who can and has wrecked you pretty solidly in the past is an awkward position and I feel Tom if scum is handling that beautifully; I think that him putting pressure on Iso this early looks earnest and the actual points that he's brought up (Iso's mindset being completely different as town and as scum and his mindset looking much more like his scum mindset, the Pozzai read point) look pretty good and like that he's been stubborn with letting him get away (in particular thinking of how he engaged with me about my position on Iso). I liked him bringing up the feelings on you early because I definitely felt the same, I liked him bringing up the Regfan concerns, I thought the X=Y point that the vote on Iso looked absolutely atrocious was a pretty compelling one and was glad he brought it up...
I mean he's not a hard town read simply because he's not out of scum range but if he's scum here than he's doing a pretty great job being DAZZLING.
Out for (probably?) the night, might post a little more if someone gets a filler post in so I won't get banned but probably not.
And tagging something on the end that I meant to respond to once I got to it and then almost forgot -
Newcomb, my early troubles with Ophidia were blown out of the water with my later townread on him; I think his posting comes across as very genuine in a "uncomfortable scum couldn't fake this type of way" (his response to the Vaimes post is a great example of this and I still find his "I'm changing my meta so I'm not always derpcleared" a very solid post even if it lacks the followup people like because it's pretty hard followup to implement). The reason why I'm pressing this as hard as I am is because both of us seemed to be picking up on it pretty strongly and then it felt like you backed away with it without really having reason to; I'm wary of this because I expect Ophidia (if I'm right on him) to be the type of player that scum would love to mislynch but getting him to universal townread status seems like it would be getting a big win. I'm also pressing it decently hard because it seems like one of the only things that I feel strongly about that people haven't picked up on already (other than the weakness of Typhrous's vote on X=Y/suspicion on Ophidia).
No, I don't think the monte diamond is a good way to read me at all. It's intrinsically flawed because, in general, I care more as scum and that just doesn't make sense to Newcomb. Pretty sure I've told him that every time he's tried it. There's no reason to again.
@Iso: "If anything, X=Y flipping scum should see me as locktown for the remainder of the game."
Can you explain the reason behind this?
Sure. I caught X=Y early, I pushed on him, he tried to push back a little, I didn't budge, and he folded like a house of cards. The wind is completely out of his sails. He got busted early and is totally demotivated from it, much in the way Cyan felt hopeless in the 2016 Invitational when his team got reamed on Page 1. Unless someone wants to step up for X=Y and explain to me that he's just a terrible Mafia player, especially as town, there's absolutely no reason for anybody not to be scumreading him at this juncture. The signs are all there that he got caught and doesn't know what to do about it.
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
No, I don't think the monte diamond is a good way to read me at all. It's intrinsically flawed because, in general, I care more as scum and that just doesn't make sense to Newcomb. Pretty sure I've told him that every time he's tried it. There's no reason to again.
You may post again.
That's reassuring re: Newcomb.
I feel kind of weird about him this game but it might be that I'm expecting too much out of him; it doesn't feel like we're vibing as hard as I hoped and expected he would; so far there are a few things he's said that are "meh" and it doesn't seem like he's coming up with a lot of sweet points like I expected from him but I do like him/Regfan being fairly aggressive in engaging me in the game/pressing me for not posting.
Am I being silly? Do you have a read on Newcomb beyond "probably still in scumrange"?
I've got some thoughts on Newcomb. A few things he has said have been noted but not commented on, a few of his conclusions seemed just a little bit off. But I'm not really ready to talk about them. Remember that thing Newcomb said about how this game seems pretty easy but if it isn't he would have to consider [whoever he said]? Yeah, that's basically where I'm at. If we lynch through Xequalsy/Iso/Pozzai/Typhon/Ophidia and don't find 2-3 scum, it's probably you or Newcomb.
Who else are we waiting on to come back from whatever? I haven't had a new thought in quite some time and am rather ready for some flips.
@Ophidia - I appreciate that you posted a recent reads list but really need you to answer #436.
@Iso - What I'm getting at is that I could say the same thing about Pozzai as you are about X=Y, X=Y's flip regardless of alignment has little impact on my Pozzai read so instead of attempting to push the stance that you won't do much more until X=Y's dead I'd rather you comment on what you agree/disagree with the Pozzai scum reads . That said I think your point about X=Y's decline in activity in the thread does make sense and fit scum giving up.
@Nacho - Glad that you got around to catching up on this game properly and do love the influx of content from you but I'd rather you actually work towards catching up on this game entirely well before Wednesday even if it means just having one big post when you're done (If you're attempting to mimic me that's what you should be doing anyway), you commenting on mostly old stances/reads is slightly underwhelming.
RE; Your #479 - 1) Fair your explanation behind Ophidias "Ask me questions" attitude being null makes sense. Also agree that his reaction towards Vaimes in the "I have a mentor" line came across as tonally town. I'm pretty conflicted on Ophidia in general, it's a read I've tried to flesh out and have sorted quite recently, think it's best we discuss and go over him when you're up to date since I want your thoughts on those posts too. 2) I expected your pressure push to result in you having a confident earlier read on me, your #111 was about the opposite of what I expected from it. As to what I think you should have noticed/read into I don't think I can answer that objectively? I think there's a pretty huge difference between my Town/Scum play tonally/reads wise/activity wise and think that you should have at least had a decent indication I was town based on it.
RE; Your #483 - 1) I disagree with your stance on Typhons posts about X=Y & Ophidia, I'll go over your the entire section tonight when I get home from work and will elaborate on it more then since we seem to be reading it in a very very very different manner. 2) I like that you agree with me on Pozzais areas of focus & sections that he's responding to look like him focusing on the unimportant / less alignment indicative sections, it really doesn't come across town at all.
RE; Your #484 - Your point about the game being harder for a newer player to entirely adjust to is a fair one given there is more walls than normal so that being a partial cause for players like Ophidia finding it daunting to get into the game makes sense, that said my issues are with the stances he has provided, again we can discuss this when you're up to date.
RE; Your #486 - I think this is the post I like the most of yours so far, I like your analysis on Tom and agree in that the "Monte Diamond" thing isn't how I try reading Tom at all, the sections that you're reading most town about him mirror what I focused on when I elaborated on my read there which is really reassuring both of you and Tom.
Regfan,
1) In your own words what makes you think X=Y is scum other than him being passive?
X=y kinda gave up protesting his lynch up to this point. You can compare him to me, and see the difference between our posts. I tried harder to not get lynched than he did by explaining my thought process and being more open.
2) Okay so you have a null read on Pozzais posts but he's a scum read because Vaimes and myself are voting him but you're not town reading me so your reasoning behind scum reading Pozzai is SOLELY that Vaimes is scum reading him, is this correct? If so please explain how a singular town read of yours voting someone leads towards you scum reading the player especially given you've stated your playstyle change is to make your own reads.
I still believe that you are much more town than pozzai, and vaimes is a strong townread whom I also trust as a player. I want to formulate my own reads but other players will probably make better decisions than I, so in the near future, if I am the single person on a wagon, I will probably go with the popular opinion than pushing that wagon. Aside from that, Pozzai's recent posts were either fluffy or weak pokes at other players, which is quite scummy for me.
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
@Ophida - While I agree with some of your reasoning for 1) I do think that it's a case of using reasoning that occurred after the fact to explain a read you had earlier, if there's more to that read would love you to elaborate into it. As for 2) it doesn't really do it for me, effectively you've stated your willingness to consider voting Pozzai is merely due to having a null read on him and having Vaimes (A town read of yours) voting him, I find it hard to believe you don't have more concrete thoughts/suspicions at all than that.
@Iso - I can see X=Y as scum with Pozzai given the fact that neither of them are voting each other and X=Y's reasoning behind weakly town reading Pozzai is a read that makes plenty of sense to give a partner, similarly Pozzai ignoring X=Y and focusing on me is something that makes sense together. I can also see Pozzai being mafia without X=Y and X=Y being mafia without Pozzai, none of those are worlds I consider impossible. And yes; I can see X=Y+Ophidia as a world, Ophidias reaction towards you mentioning them together came across as over-defensive and both have largely avoided each other, Ophidia agreeing with the X=Y reads for no original reasons but not actually voting him fits as a partner. I've answered your question, please answer mine now please.
I've got some thoughts on Newcomb. A few things he has said have been noted but not commented on, a few of his conclusions seemed just a little bit off. But I'm not really ready to talk about them. Remember that thing Newcomb said about how this game seems pretty easy but if it isn't he would have to consider [whoever he said]? Yeah, that's basically where I'm at. If we lynch through Xequalsy/Iso/Pozzai/Typhon/Ophidia and don't find 2-3 scum, it's probably you or Newcomb.
Who else are we waiting on to come back from whatever? I haven't had a new thought in quite some time and am rather ready for some flips.
If we lynch through all those names and don't find 2 wolves, the game will be over.
Let's say we flip xequalsy town and I get N1'd. It's D2. Now what? Do you just want to keep swinging through the PoE of Iso/Pozzai/Ophedia (I don't think Typhon should be in the PoE at this point), or what?
Also I know I said we should just get on with lynching xequalsy but he's stated V/LA can we please not lynch him without a claim, thanks.
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
@Iso x=y doesn't confirm anything about your alignment. Makes it more likely that you're town, but I've seen heavier w/w pushes than the one you're making. And you being so dead set that it will confirm you is a bit of a red flag. Still think you're town, just don't get why you think we should ignore the possibility that you're driving a bus without breaks.
Because I'd actually be putting effort into the push if I were scum instead of just letting it happen and letting other people take credit for the heavy lifting.
Doing what I'm doing as scum is strictly -EV, especially if X=Y is my buddy.
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
Because I'd actually be putting effort into the push if I were scum instead of just letting it happen and letting other people take credit for the heavy lifting.
Doing what I'm doing as scum is strictly -EV, especially if X=Y is my buddy.
Quote from Iso »
Sure. I caught X=Y early, I pushed on him, he tried to push back a little, I didn't budge, and he folded like a house of cards. The wind is completely out of his sails. He got busted early and is totally demotivated from it, much in the way Cyan felt hopeless in the 2016 Invitational when his team got reamed on Page 1. Unless someone wants to step up for X=Y and explain to me that he's just a terrible Mafia player, especially as town, there's absolutely no reason for anybody not to be scumreading him at this juncture. The signs are all there that he got caught and doesn't know what to do about it.
Totally taking no credit for the push at all.
Most gambits are EV-, but people still take them, because when they work the payoff is huge. Do I think you're pulling one? No, but I disagree with your stated premise of being town!firmed by and x=y scumflip.
Sure. I caught X=Y early, I pushed on him, he tried to push back a little, I didn't budge, and he folded like a house of cards. The wind is completely out of his sails. He got busted early and is totally demotivated from it, much in the way Cyan felt hopeless in the 2016 Invitational when his team got reamed on Page 1. Unless someone wants to step up for X=Y and explain to me that he's just a terrible Mafia player, especially as town, there's absolutely no reason for anybody not to be scumreading him at this juncture. The signs are all there that he got caught and doesn't know what to do about it.
So this didn't quite sound right to me, so I decided to go back and watch this unfold.
Here's every post where Iso speaks to or about xequalsy and vice versa (commentary in bold):
Regarding the wordiness/confidence of Regfan's read (@Vaimes #94) - I can't speak to the accuracy of the meta part of it, but I did get the vibe from Nacho that they were having fun and was super relaxed and came away from it with a town lean. I get tom's point about it though that he seems to be overselling a little the strength of the meta read based on the actual experience he has playing with Nacho.
(Fake Edit: Going back to this, I'm not sure I like his response #143 - agree with Vaimes's point there. He kinda doubled down on it being a relatively strong read that I don't really see as earned)
I'll be honest, I glazed over most of the walls and the spam.
Pretty sure the scum team is Grapefruit, xequalsy, regfan, and Vaimes.
You're welcome.
-
@tom, Nacho, & Pozzai: Hi! Wanna be in a townbloc with me?
There's hasn't been that many posts...
Any elaboration on this (specifically why vaimes+regfan)?
Regarding Ophidia, I like that their style so far seems to be to type out their entire thought process on things. There is a lot of self awareness, but I dunno, I kinda see that as a positive? Like answering what seems to be every question directed at them earnestly.
[snip]
Vote: Iso
Come explain your reads please.
It looks like he's trying to engage Iso here. It's probably the bit of this exchange I like the most from xequalsy.
I will not be moving my vote for the rest of the Day.
Iso is having none of this engagement bull*****.
That's the second vote on xequalsy, but it should be noted that me, Newcomb and Regfan had recently expressed suspicion and Typhon was already there.
I will not be moving my vote for the rest of the Day.
Cool, thanks for letting us know.
But answer my question please - you basically just declared your scum team your second or so post of the game, did Vaimes's push on Regfan seem like distancing to you at the time? Who do you think are scum now (apart from me), since you seem to have recanted your Vaimes and Regfan read?
And this must be the pushing back that Iso is referring to? It's still just asking him to explain, which is super fair since he hadn't in the least.
I will not be moving my vote for the rest of the Day.
Cool, thanks for letting us know.
You're welcome!
Quote from xequalsy »
But answer my question please - you basically just declared your scum team your second or so post of the game, did Vaimes's push on Regfan seem like distancing to you at the time? Who do you think are scum now (apart from me), since you seem to have recanted your Vaimes and Regfan read?
It's almost as though you haven't been reading my posts.
So does Iso actually think he's been clear or is he just being an ass on purpose? My guess is the latter.
It's almost as though you haven't been reading my posts.
I know your thoughts on Ophidia, but since you were happy to throw out 4 scum reads earlier, who else do you find suspicious? Surely you can't think you've solved the game? (Clearly you were already wrong once).
Still trying to engage. I'm not sure why scumxequalsy would bother to keep trying to interact with townIso, but that's a super meh read.
Alright, let's try this approach. Is X=Y scum, and if so, do you think my reasoning for voting him is ill-founded, or have you not figured out any of the many reasons I'm voting him, yet? Additionally, what are your thoughts on the possibility of X=Y and Ophidia being scum together?
Hey, xequalsy: Why do you think I was "clearly wrong once"? Vaimes hasn't flipped. Do you expdct me to believe that you've grokked a better understanding of the gamestate than I have at this point when you've pressured absolutely nobody and the best vote you could come up with is on me?
Hey, xequalsy: Why do you think I was "clearly wrong once"? Vaimes hasn't flipped. Do you expdct me to believe that you've grokked a better understanding of the gamestate than I have at this point when you've pressured absolutely nobody and the best vote you could come up with is on me?
Well I'm town so you're still wrong. It doesn't matter if Vaimes has flipped or not, you were "pretty sure" that the scum team was Grapefruit/me/Vaimes and now you're more Grapefruit/me/Ophidia. You're wrong for one of the teams.
And yes, since your basic premise of the game so far has been - xequalsy is 100% scum and I'm not moving off him for the rest of the day. So I by default have a better understand of the gamestate since I'm in the position of being the main wagon at the moment knowing the fact that I'm town.
The vote on you was a prod to see what you'd post. Yes, there probably could have been other people I found suspicious at the time I could have voted - but I didn't choose to use my vote that way. Currently, the vote is staying for your vote on me.
Like, if he's town I get this. Iso has called him scum for absolutely zero reasons and is just being a huge prick about it.
@Ophidia: No, as that requires re-reading. If you're uncertain, please refer to any posts that you or X=Y that may have pertained to each other shortly before I made that post.
-
I agree with Regfan's analysis RE: Ophidia in #404 (post not found). That said, Regfan, the way I read that X=Y post (#425) was that he was saying I was only wrong about my reconsidered Vaimes read since I hadn't budged on my read on him.
-
@Nacho: I mostly find it odd that Ophidia would automatically assume it was an interaction with X=Y that I didn't like. Doesn't that suggest hyperawareness of how he's interacted with X=Y through the game, as well as the fact that it highlights he hasn't really interacted with him?
-
@tom: I'm interested in your X=Y/Typhrous pairing. Tell me more about that, if you don't mind. And yes, that's another reason my vote is permaparked on X=Y RE: #419.
If anything, X=Y flipping scum should see me as locktown for the remainder of the game.
Ok, so this got thoroughly ninjaed whilst I was compiling the quotes, but here goes.
Iso did nothing approaching catching xequalsy. He called 4 scum, then voted the one that the most people were scumreading (Newcomb was before Iso's entrance, but Regfan and I expressed our suspicion between that and the vote). The wagon built up around that, and xequalsy did sort of disappear. But it's certainly not because of anything Iso did. Because, you know, Iso didn't do anything. Iso now pushing the narrative that he totally dunked xequalsy and his scumflip should clear him is frankly ridiculous. It looks more like an early bus that sort of got away from him that he's now trying to salvage by getting credit for it.
@Iso, I'm fine settling with you not rereading and hunting for why you town read Pozzai today if you were willing to comment on peoples recent reasoning for scum reading him. It's you doing neither that's irritating given I'm actually trying to work with you here.
Really like and agree with Grapes stance re; ISO + X=Y world. I think it's super unlikely given I think ISO would happily bring up plenty of reasoning if this was a buss to look better late game and I don't think it's the sort of move scum would make D1 but don't think it's completely impossible, merely just very unlikely.
Let's say we flip xequalsy town and I get N1'd. It's D2. Now what? Do you just want to keep swinging through the PoE of Iso/Pozzai/Ophedia (I don't think Typhon should be in the PoE at this point), or what?
Yes? I feel like you want a "no" here, but you aren't getting one. Obviously I will continuously reevaluate and respond to new information, but yeah I'd probably want Iso/Pozzai wagons. Typhon and Ophidia are townier than those two, but still pretty firmly in my "not town" section.
I guess if he flipped town I would look at who got him lynched (Iso is not even in the top 3 of that, btw)
I'd actually much rather lynch Iso than xequalsy right now. I think he's a viable-likely partner for everyone I'm scumreading and is just not playing like the Iso I know. He is absolutely refusing to give any reasoning at all on Pozzai or xequalsy, and is pushing a narrative about himself right now that has no grounding in reality.
@Iso x=y doesn't confirm anything about your alignment. Makes it more likely that you're town, but I've seen heavier w/w pushes than the one you're making. And you being so dead set that it will confirm you is a bit of a red flag. Still think you're town, just don't get why you think we should ignore the possibility that you're driving a bus without breaks.
Sure. I caught X=Y early, I pushed on him, he tried to push back a little, I didn't budge, and he folded like a house of cards. The wind is completely out of his sails. He got busted early and is totally demotivated from it, much in the way Cyan felt hopeless in the 2016 Invitational when his team got reamed on Page 1. Unless someone wants to step up for X=Y and explain to me that he's just a terrible Mafia player, especially as town, there's absolutely no reason for anybody not to be scumreading him at this juncture. The signs are all there that he got caught and doesn't know what to do about it.
So this didn't quite sound right to me, so I decided to go back and watch this unfold.
Here's every post where Iso speaks to or about xequalsy and vice versa (commentary in bold):
Regarding the wordiness/confidence of Regfan's read (@Vaimes #94) - I can't speak to the accuracy of the meta part of it, but I did get the vibe from Nacho that they were having fun and was super relaxed and came away from it with a town lean. I get tom's point about it though that he seems to be overselling a little the strength of the meta read based on the actual experience he has playing with Nacho.
(Fake Edit: Going back to this, I'm not sure I like his response #143 - agree with Vaimes's point there. He kinda doubled down on it being a relatively strong read that I don't really see as earned)
I'll be honest, I glazed over most of the walls and the spam.
Pretty sure the scum team is Grapefruit, xequalsy, regfan, and Vaimes.
You're welcome.
-
@tom, Nacho, & Pozzai: Hi! Wanna be in a townbloc with me?
There's hasn't been that many posts...
Any elaboration on this (specifically why vaimes+regfan)?
Regarding Ophidia, I like that their style so far seems to be to type out their entire thought process on things. There is a lot of self awareness, but I dunno, I kinda see that as a positive? Like answering what seems to be every question directed at them earnestly.
[snip]
Vote: Iso
Come explain your reads please.
It looks like he's trying to engage Iso here. It's probably the bit of this exchange I like the most from xequalsy.
I will not be moving my vote for the rest of the Day.
Iso is having none of this engagement bull*****.
That's the second vote on xequalsy, but it should be noted that me, Newcomb and Regfan had recently expressed suspicion and Typhon was already there.
I will not be moving my vote for the rest of the Day.
Cool, thanks for letting us know.
But answer my question please - you basically just declared your scum team your second or so post of the game, did Vaimes's push on Regfan seem like distancing to you at the time? Who do you think are scum now (apart from me), since you seem to have recanted your Vaimes and Regfan read?
And this must be the pushing back that Iso is referring to? It's still just asking him to explain, which is super fair since he hadn't in the least.
I will not be moving my vote for the rest of the Day.
Cool, thanks for letting us know.
You're welcome!
Quote from xequalsy »
But answer my question please - you basically just declared your scum team your second or so post of the game, did Vaimes's push on Regfan seem like distancing to you at the time? Who do you think are scum now (apart from me), since you seem to have recanted your Vaimes and Regfan read?
It's almost as though you haven't been reading my posts.
So does Iso actually think he's been clear or is he just being an ass on purpose? My guess is the latter.
It's almost as though you haven't been reading my posts.
I know your thoughts on Ophidia, but since you were happy to throw out 4 scum reads earlier, who else do you find suspicious? Surely you can't think you've solved the game? (Clearly you were already wrong once).
Still trying to engage. I'm not sure why scumxequalsy would bother to keep trying to interact with townIso, but that's a super meh read.
Alright, let's try this approach. Is X=Y scum, and if so, do you think my reasoning for voting him is ill-founded, or have you not figured out any of the many reasons I'm voting him, yet? Additionally, what are your thoughts on the possibility of X=Y and Ophidia being scum together?
Hey, xequalsy: Why do you think I was "clearly wrong once"? Vaimes hasn't flipped. Do you expdct me to believe that you've grokked a better understanding of the gamestate than I have at this point when you've pressured absolutely nobody and the best vote you could come up with is on me?
Hey, xequalsy: Why do you think I was "clearly wrong once"? Vaimes hasn't flipped. Do you expdct me to believe that you've grokked a better understanding of the gamestate than I have at this point when you've pressured absolutely nobody and the best vote you could come up with is on me?
Well I'm town so you're still wrong. It doesn't matter if Vaimes has flipped or not, you were "pretty sure" that the scum team was Grapefruit/me/Vaimes and now you're more Grapefruit/me/Ophidia. You're wrong for one of the teams.
And yes, since your basic premise of the game so far has been - xequalsy is 100% scum and I'm not moving off him for the rest of the day. So I by default have a better understand of the gamestate since I'm in the position of being the main wagon at the moment knowing the fact that I'm town.
The vote on you was a prod to see what you'd post. Yes, there probably could have been other people I found suspicious at the time I could have voted - but I didn't choose to use my vote that way. Currently, the vote is staying for your vote on me.
Like, if he's town I get this. Iso has called him scum for absolutely zero reasons and is just being a huge prick about it.
@Ophidia: No, as that requires re-reading. If you're uncertain, please refer to any posts that you or X=Y that may have pertained to each other shortly before I made that post.
-
I agree with Regfan's analysis RE: Ophidia in #404 (post not found). That said, Regfan, the way I read that X=Y post (#425) was that he was saying I was only wrong about my reconsidered Vaimes read since I hadn't budged on my read on him.
-
@Nacho: I mostly find it odd that Ophidia would automatically assume it was an interaction with X=Y that I didn't like. Doesn't that suggest hyperawareness of how he's interacted with X=Y through the game, as well as the fact that it highlights he hasn't really interacted with him?
-
@tom: I'm interested in your X=Y/Typhrous pairing. Tell me more about that, if you don't mind. And yes, that's another reason my vote is permaparked on X=Y RE: #419.
If anything, X=Y flipping scum should see me as locktown for the remainder of the game.
Ok, so this got thoroughly ninjaed whilst I was compiling the quotes, but here goes.
Iso did nothing approaching catching xequalsy. He called 4 scum, then voted the one that the most people were scumreading (Newcomb was before Iso's entrance, but Regfan and I expressed our suspicion between that and the vote). The wagon built up around that, and xequalsy did sort of disappear. But it's certainly not because of anything Iso did. Because, you know, Iso didn't do anything. Iso now pushing the narrative that he totally dunked xequalsy and his scumflip should clear him is frankly ridiculous. It looks more like an early bus that sort of got away from him that he's now trying to salvage by getting credit for it.
@Iso, I'm fine settling with you not rereading and hunting for why you town read Pozzai today if you were willing to comment on peoples recent reasoning for scum reading him. It's you doing neither that's irritating given I'm actually trying to work with you here.
Really like and agree with Grapes stance re; ISO + X=Y world. I think it's super unlikely given I think ISO would happily bring up plenty of reasoning if this was a buss to look better late game and I don't think it's the sort of move scum would make D1 but don't think it's completely impossible, merely just very unlikely.
I'd actually much rather lynch Iso than xequalsy right now. I think he's a viable-likely partner for everyone I'm scumreading and is just not playing like the Iso I know. He is absolutely refusing to give any reasoning at all on Pozzai or xequalsy, and is pushing a narrative about himself right now that has no grounding in reality.
I've briefly entertained the notion that Iso's playing like this because he wants a wagon so people will pay attention to him, but.
I'd much rather just keep playing the game, and he'll either naturally be PoE'd out at some point, or he'll start giving reasoning and analysis. Less of a headache.
I'd actually much rather lynch Iso than xequalsy right now.
I wouldn't at all. Is Isos posts and play frustrating? Yep. Is his play borderline anti-town? Yep. Do I think he's scum from it? Not really. I also disagree with the "He fits with all my scum reads" section, I don't think an Iso+X=Y world is all that likely even with your point about Iso claiming more credit for the lynch than he actually did; I think X=Ys reaction towards it and vote on Iso points fairly heavily against them being the team. I think Ophidias reaction towards Iso makes them less likely a team, the only person I think he's more likely with is indeed Pozzzai in which case I'd rather lynch, you guessed it Pozzai. There's also been a few posts of Isos that I'm reading slightly towny.
I'd actually much rather lynch Iso than xequalsy right now. I think he's a viable-likely partner for everyone I'm scumreading and is just not playing like the Iso I know. He is absolutely refusing to give any reasoning at all on Pozzai or xequalsy, and is pushing a narrative about himself right now that has no grounding in reality.
I don't think we're playing the same game.
-
@Grapefruit: Yes, I caught X=Y early and yes, his push on me was ***** and he looked ***** for it. I commented on posts of his that I did not like without specifically stating why I did not like those posts because I wanted people to start paying attention to him (as I stated to Newcomb), and lo and behold, people started looking at X=Y. Maybe I'm just a psychic, but I pointed out that people should take note of him and everyone else did the heavy lifting for me. That's how the wagon played out, and I'm not getting any credit for it because that's how it played out. Do you disagree? If so, please explain the sheer quantity of people who are *****ting on my contribution to the X=Y wagon and not acknowledging that it clears me. Thanks!
-
@Regfan: I appreciate your willingness to work with me while I'm being a stubborn ****er but I haven't seen any compelling points against Pozzai. Every bit of posting I've seen of his reads off-the-cuff initial reactions to posts that don't necessarily have a lot of forethought or guile behind them. If people think Pozzai is scum for that, does that mean his town game is typically extremely analytical and less visceral? The extent of my experience with Pozzai is over video Mafia and I found him fairly easy to read there, and I have no reason to believe that him posting in his current capacity/style would be any more difficult for me to pick up scum vibes from. I think part of the problem is that Pozzai is struggling to find a player on his wavelength in this game and I think that if he finds said player and interacts with them in realtime, it will become apparent that Pozzai is trying to solve the game. If you ask me to point to any specific posts that make me feel this way, I would not be able to. My Mafia play has two stages: Autopilot and Doom Cannon. Sometimes I start the game in Doom Cannon and give it 150% and shank all of the scum on Day 1. Those are the games when I shine, and they typically involve me getting my way with most of the lynches. The way I catch scum is, to put it simply, interactively. I generate possible scumteams based on interactions, vote analysis, and my own crusades against people. I don't always share my thoughts, because rarely do they align with that of my compatriots. This is why I prefer the Socratic method - because a lot of my theories are 3 levels of paranoia and left-field-crazy deep, I'm saved the effort of smashing my face repeatedly into brick walls to turn them into candy...or some bizarre metaphor to that effect. I don't like engaging with people outside of my own personal agenda for how I plan to solve and win the game, I don't like repeating myself, and I don't like interfering with my own scumhunting by performing a paradigm shift too early. When I'm in autopilot, I very much go off of the way a person's posts make me feel initially with very little close reading involved in said feeling creation unless I see something I want elaborated upon. I also pay attention (for the most part) to use of my name because at least acknowledging that people are talking to you is polite, even if you don't necessarily do so in the way that they want you to. Anyway, all of this is about 80% of why I'm still in auto-pilot - because I need to see X=Y's flip in order to eliminate team possibilities and narrow it down to the correct "electron cloud". Does that make sense to you? I guess the easiest way to summarize it is to say that my reads are all gut until I choose to substantiate them further, but doing this too early is dangerous for me because there's less of a chance of me being able to perform a proper paradigm shift and instead regressing into tunneling. My best chance of learning more about the gamestate is when we have more information, and that's why an X=Y lynch is so important to me toDay - because if we lynch Pozzai on Day 1, I don't learn anything (it really seems like I'm the only person NOT interested in lynching Pozzai, so what exactly would we learn from his wagon?) and I put it at about 85% that Pozzai flipa town, which means we're almost certainly going to lynch X=Y on Day 2 for being the counterwagon to our flipped town, and to be perfectly frank, I love being right and rubbing it in everyone's faces - and these are all reasons Pozzai is a terrible lynch for toDay. With scumX=Y flipping, we have the game basically solved (or at least I do, and in this current situation, that's what matters). With Pozzai flipping - even if he is scum - we get nothing.
tom is 100% aware of all of this with regards to the way I play Mafia seeing as I talk about it often enough (and Newcomb SHOULD be, having played in the Invitational, but according to tom, he doesn't learn these sorts of things terribly well?) and that is why I will see tom dead if he continues to prompt me to be a less effective Mafia player.
So, hopefully that clears everything up for everyone, and we can progress with the game.
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
I jut noticed Typhon has actually been gone for 5 days now, it's gone well and truly past the 48 hour V/LA absence and past the point where it could just be him strategically lurking. I'm hoping he's okay here.
@Nacho - Went over Typhons Post #209 again, I think his point about scum lurking more in the early game in a playerlist like this despite it being hypocritical (And he does acknowledge his) is a solid one and similarly liked him questioning X=Y about his interaction with Grapefruit inside Post #89 because I saw a lot of scum motivation behind making that post as well -- it's not that X=Ys question was unreasonable there its more a case of the way he went about it comes across as scum interjecting themselves in the conversation. Similarly I liked his point about Ophidia overly mentioning and focusing on him being inexperienced inside Post #211, it's a point that I agree with; find that newer scum players use their experience as an excuse quite a lot more often (I do understand what you're coming re; it's an easy point to make as mafia though) but I liked it in the sense that it was him putting forward something original that I hadn't given a lot of thought to beforehand and hadn't picked up on myself in this game. I don't think either post are super towny but I liked the thought process from him there.
@Iso - Thanks for the elaboration on your thought process, very much appreciated. Your point about wanting to get information for yourself before considering a hard reset and analysing the game in 'hardmode' is somewhat understandable, not something I'd do but understand that others don't always play the game like I do. All that said I disagree with you opinion on the rooms stances at the moment? I think there's more people not wanting to lynch Pozzai today than there is people not wanting to lynch X=Y (I think everyone in the game has stated some sort of scum read on him). My issue with Pozzai isn't solely that his commenting and focus doesn't come across as him genuinely scumhunting (Though that is a large part of it) but also the fact that his reaction towards being scum read and pressure is a big red flag, his scum-read of me and attempt at focusing on semantics (like the order I questioned people about their read on him) comes across as him just posting bull***** as he goes; the fact he's barely commented on X=Y or the wagon on him is another huge concern.
Oh and Vaimes, I'm like ~5 posts behind you, you're not going to let me take top poster that easily are you? And yes, this is me trying to be nice and tell you to get back to this game and provide some content & thoughts.
@Iso I appreciate the Socratic approach (playing with people who use it helps make me a better player), and I'm not trying to take away from the fact that you were a part of getting the ball rolling on x=y. My only issue is that it doesn't clear you.
It moves you out of the PoE for now easily, but not to the point where it won't be revisited depending on later flips. You are already one of my top town reads, I'm not sure what else you want there. I'm not going to treat you like you've been mechanically confirmed but I am going to continue town reading you, especially if x=y flips scum.
You are correct that you didn't do the heavy lifting, but I think you're giving yourself too much credit to say that no one was looking at x=y before your post.
In 150 Newcomb referred to x=y's 89 in a negative sense before you mentioned your 4 scum reads.
In your 150 you call out x=y, regfan, vaimes, and me and give no indication which one you find scummiest.
Before your 282 where you zero in on x=y, 4 people either focus on or scum read x=y. tom almost immeadiately pulls him out of your list and questions just that one. Reg and I scum read x=y in back to back posts in 204 and 205. And Typh votes them making his own case. All of this before you throw your weight behind your X=y read. Yes your scum read of x=y was part of what drew my eye to him, but what did moreso was Newcomb calling out the scummy post in the middle of his wall.
So yes you were an integral part of it, despite tom's claim to the contrary. Does it happen without you? I think so just not as quickly or easily. So no I don't disagree with your premise that you were part of the lynch. Which I did not disagree with in my sarcastic previous post either. I just saw a contradiction in your posts with regards to you taking credit and pointed it out. To the people not clearing you for it, I'd imagine they feel the same way I do, that you are less likely to be scum for it, but not wanting to write you off because it could have been a turbo bussing gambit as unlikely as it seems. Which is where Regfan settled as well.
So in short, I'm sorry if my sarcastic post made you angry. It was intended in fun and to let others see the contradiction in case it was alignment indicative. I'm also sorry if I came across as a total creep for talking about knowing your meta without playing with you. I have a crappy job where I sit at a computer all day. I play online chess and read mafia games like they're detective novels to pass the time. I didn't mean to offend you, just trying to play the game.
tom is 100% aware of all of this with regards to the way I play Mafia seeing as I talk about it often enough (and Newcomb SHOULD be, having played in the Invitational, but according to tom, he doesn't learn these sorts of things terribly well?) and that is why I will see tom dead if he continues to prompt me to be a less effective Mafia player.
Ok Iso. Since I'm fully aware of this I guess I'm an expert.
I've never seen you not share your thoughts before. You do that sometimes? Please provide an example of a game where you've done that, and I will read it, or at least your iso. I vastly prefer the Iso that beats you over the head with his thoughts. If you're town, bring that one back.
I have seen you in autopilot mode twice. Once as as scum in [ongoing game], and once as town in Titanic Ultimatum when we lynched you and won despite you. But as many times as you were wrong in TU (~many)... well, let me let recently lynched Iso tell it:
I have single-handedly generated more reactions and information from everybody about their alignment than anybody else. If that is not the definition of being a successful townie on Day 1, then I am the worst Mafia player alive.
And we all know that can't be true.
So what is it that you've done in this game to be a successful townie? I've just been through your iso, and the answer is nothing.
So, you've finally given a reason for the Pozzai read. He's off the cuff. I get that. But I don't think that means a lot for some players, me in my normal playstyle being a pretty obvious example. And even with "normal" players it wouldn't mean much in this situation, because Pozzai pretty clearly didn't know what was going on in thread or talk about anything relevant with those off the cuff posts.
One specific thing:
Quote from iso »
The extent of my experience with Pozzai is over video Mafia and I found him fairly easy to read there
What made you remember this experience? I seem to recall you not remembering in signups, and now this is so confident.
And since you've still haven't given your initial reason for scumreading xequalsy... would you? At least comment on 224/226 which are his contentful posts between you putting him on a team with zero thought and you dropping your vote with the stated intention to stay all day.
@tom there are some definite differences between the approach described in the two, but they bear some similarities. I would say overall the two posts are reminiscent, but 511 definitely bears the marks of being more crunched on time which I have seen him talk about somewhere recently. The post you linked seems to have come from a "pre auto-pilot" time.
This quote from it " I have a bad habit of pushing people to their emotional brink, which frequently causes unpleasant feelings and implosions, and usually results in a vote on myself" pretty much describes a more hard edged version of what he did in this thread.
So yeah I'd say they are similar but his post in this thread comes from a more frustrated place.
EBWDOP I stopped reading after his self meta. The rest of it struck me as him being more engaged. Still doing the draw attention to things pattern, but giving a bit more while doing it. Not relevant to 511, but relevant to overall play this game.
Well, he's scum in the linked game. It's just a similar enough post to 511 that I thought I'd ask since you were around. I've skimmed a bunch of Iso isos from various games in the last couple hours, and that's the only other post I've seen like that. I think it's because townIso would rather talk about the current game, which this Iso is trying so hard to avoid doing.
I've been looking for an example of something else but I can't seem to find one from a game I can talk about. More on that later I guess.
Yeah, they're pretty similar and I can see that parallel ringing alarm bells for you. I'll skim through his ISO in that game before bed tonight then. That said his explosion in 511 feels natural here. I think Iso is too good of a player to throw a tantrum as scum for being town read but not town cleared. I'm expecting him to talk more about the game as it goes on.
If you can find a kosher example I'll be happy to take a look, but for now I'll have to wait and see. I will say I'm currently slightly less confident in my earlier read that this Iso matches his town meta than I previously was.
All of that hedging aside Iso is still one of my stronger town reads.
Oh, just regarding my #504:
That is not a case that xequalsy/Iso are w/w. They could be is the only point I am trying to make. But if someone can show me how they are hard unaligned, I will promptly start townreading xequalsy because Iso is very probably scum here.
I don't think that you ever enter a game expecting a person to basically play 180 compared to videomafia. I don't disagree with the premise there are differences, but I find it hard to swallow he'd expect me to be a completely different player from it.
I found it awkward he turned to you(didn't know your relation) as opposed to Delphine for a read, and didn't like his response of him wanting to wait to see if Delphine would get around to it herself, when he literally asked her shortly after.
I strongly dislike that instead of attempting to determine WHAT I got out of my questions, he just went for the assumption they're meaningless. The experience I have with him, again from videomafia, such things actually intrigue him, he's curious about them, here he's just ignoring them. This was okay at the point of his initial vote on me, as he could be fishing for reactions etc, but the fact he still hasn't asked and kept them as blanket statements irks me, he's not actively trying to figure out if he's wrong, not trying to determine my alignment, just stating it over and over again.
His handling your response was fairly underwhelming, I'd have expected a more aggressive stance on you in regards to disagreeing with his points(but not necessarily his read) than what he showed. The reaction to me didn't mirror the question.
Like, he's been focussed around Iso's read on me, potential partner not knowing what townpoints he can push, but he ignores the fact that it could be the same with you, where a scum!Newcomb doesn't have enough ammo to push scum!Pozzai as town, and just goes with "well, uhm, those exact points is probably null for my buddy".
I think there was a few more things but as head's been focused elsewhere the last handful of days it's a bit fussy to me right now.
I have liked a few of the things he's done here and there, but overall I strongly suspect him of being mafia, hence why my vote is still on him.
I'm going to pull one from the old WH12 playbook.
@all (except Pozzai and Reg)
A) Pozzai town, Regfan town
B) Pozzai wolf, Regfan town
C) Pozzai town, Regfan wolf
D) Pozzai wolf, Regfan wolf
Please assign a % chance to each option. Extra credit: show your work.
I also read the invitational where he solved the entire game on D1 but was pretty much posting exactly like this until later in the game, differene is his reads were right there. Lastly I read murders in townville where he was town. I've also read through his Electron cloud explanation post in the theory chat a few times.
A)60%
B)30%
C)10%
D)0%
I'm going to skimp on work showing for now.
@Newcomb Can you explain Delphi read just a bit more because I'm not seeing it at all even rereading what they were saying about you.
@Pozzai reading your posts makes me feel a bit slow because I'm not comprehending your Regfan case at all. Can you explain it to me in simple terms? What I got out of it is that you don't like how he skips asking you why you asked questions and he's making a case and behaving in the same way to the behavior that he's calling out. But I have no idea if I'm parsing that correctly.
I again still don't think your line of questioning and interacting are you attempting to get reads or focusing on the actual relevant and alignment indicative sections of peoples posts (And no, I don't need to question why you've asked each question to think that), it's flat out a case of I don't think you're commenting on important topics inside the game; more recent example is that I don't think you focusing on why I questioned Newcomb before asking Delphi about their read on you is a real alignment indicative stance when it's pretty clear that I've been interacting and questioning Newcomb the most out of everyone inside the thread. I'm asking and pushing for Isos stance and reasoning on yourself to get a better read on Iso; that's largely the intention behind the questioning, I don't think focusing overly on that section with Newcomb will be what helps solidify my read on him. If you're actually town here I need to see genuine analysis from you, your read and stance on X=Y or the wagon on him at the moment, your thoughts on Nacho or Tom. Pretty much if you'e town I need to be able to see it from your posts because so far nothing has come across as genuine or gamesolving.
The biggest issue I have with Pozzai is not what he has said, but what he hasn't. I never feel like he's talking about what I think he should be.
If anything, X=Y flipping scum should see me as locktown for the remainder of the game.
Well, no, because if Pozzai flips town, that tells me literally nothing about the gamestate I didn't already suspect AND I'm still going to want to lynch X=Y because I won't have been able to reconsider the gamestate without him dead. All you're doing is wasting a Day and one of our mislynches, here, if Pozzai is town.
Are you just...not thinking critically about my play in this game? I mean, I guess it's adorable that you think I'll ever be lynched, here, but okay.
A. 80%
B. 10%
C. 5%
D. 5%
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
Can you explain the reason behind this?
If your criticism that his reason for townreading Grapefruit there is a little silly, then you're right on the money. The assertion that his preface somehow makes it scummier than it would be otherwise is not something that I follow all that well.
I remember you posting the Monte Diamond somewhere else in the game, but Tom caring about the game/seeming like he's caring all the game is never how I've read him in the past. I'll probably respond in full to this piece of reasoning once I find the damn thing again.
Could you explain how "he acted like he was dropping hot fire and instead dropped hot garbage" is equivalent to being opportunistic with a townread?
Or even how the two things are similar?
I like that you zeroed in on the same thing about Pozzai that I did; as of right now (haven't read anything else from him) seems like the most compelling reason to vote him.
I don't think Ophidia's "Ask me questions so I can learn to analyze" is particularly alignment indicative; I've seen scum plenty of times as townies or partners to guide their posting by making people hold their hands to get there, which is mostly what bothered me about Ophidia's opening. I very much agree that coming out of the guided Newcomb tour of Grapefruit with a scum read when he was universal town is a strong town tell; Ophidia if scum would be the type who didn't really know how to produce novel content of his own and pushing back against the universal townread there goes against that 100%. It also might be silly on my part, but I actually thought that his response to Vaimes's scum QT comment was pretty town-looking; I think that's a situation that is awkward to be put in as scum and requires a good confidence as scum that I'm not quite sure he has yet based on general new-looking posting and Tom's commentary on his scumgame in the Assassins in the Palace game.
As to your uneasiness with my approach to you earlier, what did you expect my approach would evolve into after the initial joke push?
What about your posts to that point were town enough to be outside of your scumrange? What should I have picked up on that I didn't?
Pocketing is when a scum player townreads a town player for the purpose of being townread.
What makes you think that it was too friendly over just a normal townread? Do you agree with Newcomb that the viewpoint was too shallow to be genuine?
I like DelphiBlue's attempt to read Regfan at the bottom of Page 4, for the most part. In particular, I thought bringing up the "Tom town read seems like him being excited more about the playstyle as opposed to make a legitimate read" and the "he didn't take into account that Nacho was joking about Regfan lynching pre-game" points were novel, and I don't think that scum!Delphi would angle for paranoia at town!Regfan at this point because he's clearly active enough where there's not a chance in hell that he gets mislynched.
I also picked up on Regfan feeling excited about Tom's playstyle but I disagree that he's townreading Tom via playstyle alone; I think he's excited about it because it's made Tom agree with him more; I also follow his point about mindmelding with someone who you don't typically mindmeld with being a towntell, considering that if they don't typically mindmeld with you then you probably don't think in a same way (which makes mindmelding as scum easier), which increases the chance that the thing they're picking up on is genuine, if that makes sense despite my poor, Tammy-like attempt at describing it although apparently as I'm reading on I assumed Regfan's thought process re: bringing that up was different than it was.
Is the only thing you disliked from Ophidia at this point was the empty RVS vote early on?
What do you think of the reasons I've brought up for my Ophidia town read (and why it should be stronger than just a weak town read?).
For the most part, am in very strong agreement with Regfan's reads; my "strong town" group swaps Ophidia for Tom and Iso might make it to a very weak townread but otherwise I feel pretty good about Pozzai + X=Y + maybe Typhon but wouldn't be hugely surprised if Iso or Delphi took up the last slot. I don't think that there's any chance Regfan is scum with both Pozzai and Xequals as partners considering he's not leaving himself any way to defend either or get a townie mislynched today, which means Newcomb's "this is either a really easy game or a considerably more complicated one" stands pretty strongly here.
The reads that stand out the most to me from Regfan are his read on me and his read on Tom. His read on Tom I like from him because it reads like there's a pretty decent emotional edge to it; he seems legitimately excited about zeroing on Tom town early and having Tom post in a style he can parse easier. I also like the progression of the read on me; I like how bothered he is by my #111 and think that his problems with the post are more complicated than they might be if he were scum (in this reads post, he focuses on me knowing that he has "too strong" of reads as town and in his response to Delphi he focuses on me not taking a more active role in his initial push, etc). If scum, my expectation would be more that he would focus on the "you know my game and you should know I'm town more than anyone else" and his coming up with additional reasons for it in later posts to me shows that he's thinking about it when he's not posting which to me is a decent indicator of Regfan!town.
I don't like his read on Delphi - that in particular is a read that I hoped Regfan would help me sort and while I can understand not having a read on her at this juncture because she certainly hasn't done much I was hoping that he would press her to become a little more readable.
Newcomb, to address a recent post of yours, I don't think that Regfan-Pozzai interactions make them lock not w/w, but from Regfan's side at least hammering as hard as he did and as early as he did seems kind of dickish and probably wouldn't happen unless he had confidence in partner #2 (which for me says you/Tom /Vaimes) or if he thought Pozzai was likely to be able to talk himself out of it. I don't really feel like doing a percentage for it, though.
Can't say I like the Ophidia push in 211, either; the idea that someone is saying that they're new a bunch of times so they won't be held to the standards that experienced players are being held to seems kind of silly? I'd have less issue if Typhrous took the angle that Ophidia was overly nervous and that's what causes the "I'm a newbie!" mantra everywhere but this angle seems like a pretty harsh stretch.
Did you agree with it/do you think it's coming from a genuine place?
I've explained my perspective on him in my last post, but I don't think that his opening was strong town as he's seemed to imply by some of his responses to me; I think some of his stronger towntells are in his progressions which have recently started to unfold. I don't necessarily think that him expecting to look townier than he is is a scumtell; Regfan, like Tammy and Empire, tend to underestimate their own scumrange slightly and can end up feeling like they are townier than they actually should be, if that makes sense.
When I am scum, I occasionally feel more obligated to swing out of not-serious mode earlier as opposed to later because I tend to be more apprehensive out of digging out of holes when scum than town; it's completely instinctive and based on nothing at all, but I feel Newcomb might approach that situation similarly and thus I don't really townread him for reverting to normal play earlier than he planned.
I think his approach to Vaimes is reasonable but not something I really townread; in later posts I like how he veers from 95% town to maybe a little less town when he talks about Vaimes folding D2 because it shows progression and Newcomb probably isn't doing anything but townreading Vaimes this game as scum but I didn't pick up on anything good in his early approach.
Re: 224:
What does seeing Tom get mislynched for fake reads have to do with town reads advancing the game state?
Did you bring up him getting mislynched for fake reads before as a point that shallow reads aren't necessarily scummy, or...?
Typhrous's followup questions to Ophidia look a hell of a lot better than his initial approach (225).
I don't like X=Y's vote on Iso in post #226; it seems like a cop out vote to vote someone because they haven't explained their reads yet and I don't like how X=Y doesn't really try to offer any conclusions in what he's posted so far.
Will also point out that Pozzai not understanding that Tom was mimicking someone else wasn't the scummy part of his posting and don't really remember Regfan making that point although I could completely be wrong; the scummy part of Pozzai's interaction with Tom was the fact that he tried to use changing his playstyle against him even though it's something that obviously isn't scummy at all.
Pozzai, I don't understand what you were trying to say in 235; why wouldn't you pay attention to Regfan early day 1 and how is page 5 not early day 1...?
I don't like his attack in 236, either; while I don't mind the video mafia reference (it's silly but it's something people do), "I keep my cards close to my chest" is nowhere near a rebuttal for "your attempts to sort people right now don't look genuine".
I kind of like Delphi's commentary on Tom's 56 in 238 even though I disagree with her general point on it (I think it was a fine commentary on the gamestate at that point; probably pulled the trigger on it early but don't really care about it that much), but it seems like a really weird angle of attack from scum, and I like that she talks about trying to Google the reference in order to find it.
And again 239 seems to be completely missing the point unless I'm really really bad at reading unless he's claiming that he always has focus on things that have nothing to do with alignment in every game.
I miss when Vaimes posted a lot; still love his early posting enough where I'm not yet concerned but I might need to do some rereading before bed to keep the nightmares away.
I'm going to need you to explain this because I very strongly disagree with it; in what world is "X=Y is lurking, his RVS vote is super scummy, and also those completely OK questions to Grapefruit are totally scummy" a valid or okay case in any sense?
Liking the Ophidia point is more understandable, but I still think it's dumb if not scummy; I think his reasoning for finding the over-mention scummy is completely off-base which for me lends credence to the theory that he just saw Ophidia saying he was new a lot and tried to turn it into a point. I also think that it's the type of reasoning that scum use fairly frequently (and have seen this same reasoning coming from scum in a newbie game) simply because it's a very easy thing to attack.
I don't think that Pozzai skimming is indicative of alignment.
In very strong agreement with this post, really really like that Grape picked up on this.
I do think that it makes sense for Ophi to be self-conscious especially in this playerlist which not only is hyped up frequently but also has a bunch of walls flying around which makes the game a lot denser and harder to engage for people uncomfortable with the style.
Re: Pozzai's 262:
Tom saying that he would focus on a town circle doesn't mean that he wasn't going to have scumreads period, and nothing Tom has said or implies really suggests that he's going to avoid giving scumreads so your criticism here continues to seem ridiculous. The fact that you're pushing it as brazenly as you are and Delphi saying she has similar thoughts take off the edge to this point somewhat but I still don't like that your response to Regfan completely missed his point and saw you continuously trying to claim that you holding your reads close to your chest completely nullified you having a weird entrance and I don't like that you're hyperfocusing on the "lack of reads" point and trying to ignore everything else.
I don't think that Iso is scum with X=Y. I agree with Tom that Iso's main approach seems to be "do as much damage as he can before he inevitably goes down", and I don't think Iso as scum would so gleefully throw him under the bus unless he had a plan to do more after he was gone (which is certainly not something that he's posturing to do now). I'm not sure that X=Y's vote on Iso would be so... bad? if they were scum together either because Iso would most certainly let X=Y know that he was bussing him and would help him out a little bit with how to respond unless he's just a dick. If he's trying to clear himself via the X=Y push as scum I don't think that his approach would be as shallow as just pushing him immediately and claiming that he's confirmed town via the flip, but that's just an instinctive sort of thing.
Headed out to eat something, will be back in a bit.
I promise it has nothing to do with my alignment. Just...felt a little burned out on Effort-related things in general, sorry.
Will say that Delphi's point about the Ophidia quote isn't a bad one (I agree that it was odd that he didn't follow up with the ping there considering it seemed like a fairly strong one) although the comparison of games is a weak one; of course Ophidia speaks differently about a strong scumread than a lean town one.
Tom's wall is a pretty good one; I think he brings up an interesting point re: Pozzai in that he's weirdly out of touch with the game despite seeming caught up and seeming decently engaged.
It stings quite a bit that Vaimes would happily lynch me Day 1 even if he doesn't strongly feel that I'm scum
@Newcomb's Newtron Bomb (314) (which makes my "finish page 7" goal a hell of a lot more daunting than it had to be, thanks a lot):
-I don't understand why Pozzai's response to Regfan was loose and silly enough to be a towntell whereas his push on Tom was a scumtell unless I'm missing a section of your reasoning somewhere. I think both instances are examples of Pozzai's approaches just not being believable. In his later interactions with Regfan (I won't dig up the post now but it's roundabout the initial reaction), he also made a big deal of Regfan saying that he found the lack of reads troubling while glossing over the main part of Regfan's point; I find that pretty concerning as it's something that I find both hilarious and effective when I'm scum (hammer at a weak point in a case while ignoring the gist of it). I think that calling you/Regfan not w/w because of the clumsy interaction was strange, yes, but it seems to be the same concept behind your reasoning for townreading Pozzai for the Regfan push.
The only thing you bring up on him that seems town is his questioning of the you/Vaimes relationship which certainly isn't a bad question, but is not something that I think is particularly alignment indicative unless you don't think it's something that he could think of as scum.
-With the read on Tom, I don't really think that the Monte Diamond works for people who have a scum preference and don't understand why that applies to Tom specifically. When I've gotten good, strong reads on him it's mostly due to figuring out whether his approach was genuine or not and think that this is an easier way to read him in this gimmick so I feel you glossing over reading his posts in favor of following the Monte Diamond is silly and would be concerning except Tom apparently thinks that's a decent way to read him. (@Tom: Do you actually agree with the Monte Diamond method? If not, why didn't you correct Newcomb on it?)
I didn't get the impression that Tom was attempting to use Voxx reasoning for things since Tom reasoning is still shining through pretty strongly; I had the impression that Tom was more using posting style and trying to avoid "weird tom reasoning" for things which shouldn't hit the fake/genuine meter as hardly as it is for you (his early townread on Grapefruit and his entire approach to me this game are very distinctly "tom reads").
I didn't think his commentary on Pozzai was bad; lazy, sure, but I definitely wouldn't say bad. The interesting part of what Tom brought up re: Pozzai is that Pozzai has enough posts/has been around enough to be engaged and yet his overall efforts to engage with the gamestate are pretty piss poor, which could have something to do with his "keeping cards close to his chest" thing but also aren't backed up by his questions seeming to lead to anywhere useful.
Parts where I feel Tom looks pretty town is in his Iso push; I know Stargate was a while ago and he's improved a lot since then, but I still feel like interacting as scum with someone who you respect a lot and who can and has wrecked you pretty solidly in the past is an awkward position and I feel Tom if scum is handling that beautifully; I think that him putting pressure on Iso this early looks earnest and the actual points that he's brought up (Iso's mindset being completely different as town and as scum and his mindset looking much more like his scum mindset, the Pozzai read point) look pretty good and like that he's been stubborn with letting him get away (in particular thinking of how he engaged with me about my position on Iso). I liked him bringing up the feelings on you early because I definitely felt the same, I liked him bringing up the Regfan concerns, I thought the X=Y point that the vote on Iso looked absolutely atrocious was a pretty compelling one and was glad he brought it up...
I mean he's not a hard town read simply because he's not out of scum range but if he's scum here than he's doing a pretty great job being DAZZLING.
Out for (probably?) the night, might post a little more if someone gets a filler post in so I won't get banned but probably not.
And tagging something on the end that I meant to respond to once I got to it and then almost forgot -
Newcomb, my early troubles with Ophidia were blown out of the water with my later townread on him; I think his posting comes across as very genuine in a "uncomfortable scum couldn't fake this type of way" (his response to the Vaimes post is a great example of this and I still find his "I'm changing my meta so I'm not always derpcleared" a very solid post even if it lacks the followup people like because it's pretty hard followup to implement). The reason why I'm pressing this as hard as I am is because both of us seemed to be picking up on it pretty strongly and then it felt like you backed away with it without really having reason to; I'm wary of this because I expect Ophidia (if I'm right on him) to be the type of player that scum would love to mislynch but getting him to universal townread status seems like it would be getting a big win. I'm also pressing it decently hard because it seems like one of the only things that I feel strongly about that people haven't picked up on already (other than the weakness of Typhrous's vote on X=Y/suspicion on Ophidia).
You may post again.
Town:
Me
Most likely Town:
Tom
Vaimes
Nacho
Grapes
Townreads:
Regfan
Typh
Newcomb
Delph
Null:
Pozzai
Scum lean:
x=y
Too many towns in this list. Need to look at people with more scrutiny.
Sure. I caught X=Y early, I pushed on him, he tried to push back a little, I didn't budge, and he folded like a house of cards. The wind is completely out of his sails. He got busted early and is totally demotivated from it, much in the way Cyan felt hopeless in the 2016 Invitational when his team got reamed on Page 1. Unless someone wants to step up for X=Y and explain to me that he's just a terrible Mafia player, especially as town, there's absolutely no reason for anybody not to be scumreading him at this juncture. The signs are all there that he got caught and doesn't know what to do about it.
My hero.
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
That's reassuring re: Newcomb.
I feel kind of weird about him this game but it might be that I'm expecting too much out of him; it doesn't feel like we're vibing as hard as I hoped and expected he would; so far there are a few things he's said that are "meh" and it doesn't seem like he's coming up with a lot of sweet points like I expected from him but I do like him/Regfan being fairly aggressive in engaging me in the game/pressing me for not posting.
Am I being silly? Do you have a read on Newcomb beyond "probably still in scumrange"?
Who else are we waiting on to come back from whatever? I haven't had a new thought in quite some time and am rather ready for some flips.
@Iso - What I'm getting at is that I could say the same thing about Pozzai as you are about X=Y, X=Y's flip regardless of alignment has little impact on my Pozzai read so instead of attempting to push the stance that you won't do much more until X=Y's dead I'd rather you comment on what you agree/disagree with the Pozzai scum reads . That said I think your point about X=Y's decline in activity in the thread does make sense and fit scum giving up.
@Nacho - Glad that you got around to catching up on this game properly and do love the influx of content from you but I'd rather you actually work towards catching up on this game entirely well before Wednesday even if it means just having one big post when you're done (If you're attempting to mimic me that's what you should be doing anyway), you commenting on mostly old stances/reads is slightly underwhelming.
RE; Your #479 - 1) Fair your explanation behind Ophidias "Ask me questions" attitude being null makes sense. Also agree that his reaction towards Vaimes in the "I have a mentor" line came across as tonally town. I'm pretty conflicted on Ophidia in general, it's a read I've tried to flesh out and have sorted quite recently, think it's best we discuss and go over him when you're up to date since I want your thoughts on those posts too. 2) I expected your pressure push to result in you having a confident earlier read on me, your #111 was about the opposite of what I expected from it. As to what I think you should have noticed/read into I don't think I can answer that objectively? I think there's a pretty huge difference between my Town/Scum play tonally/reads wise/activity wise and think that you should have at least had a decent indication I was town based on it.
RE; Your #483 - 1) I disagree with your stance on Typhons posts about X=Y & Ophidia, I'll go over your the entire section tonight when I get home from work and will elaborate on it more then since we seem to be reading it in a very very very different manner. 2) I like that you agree with me on Pozzais areas of focus & sections that he's responding to look like him focusing on the unimportant / less alignment indicative sections, it really doesn't come across town at all.
RE; Your #484 - Your point about the game being harder for a newer player to entirely adjust to is a fair one given there is more walls than normal so that being a partial cause for players like Ophidia finding it daunting to get into the game makes sense, that said my issues are with the stances he has provided, again we can discuss this when you're up to date.
RE; Your #486 - I think this is the post I like the most of yours so far, I like your analysis on Tom and agree in that the "Monte Diamond" thing isn't how I try reading Tom at all, the sections that you're reading most town about him mirror what I focused on when I elaborated on my read there which is really reassuring both of you and Tom.
1) In your own words what makes you think X=Y is scum other than him being passive?
X=y kinda gave up protesting his lynch up to this point. You can compare him to me, and see the difference between our posts. I tried harder to not get lynched than he did by explaining my thought process and being more open.
2) Okay so you have a null read on Pozzais posts but he's a scum read because Vaimes and myself are voting him but you're not town reading me so your reasoning behind scum reading Pozzai is SOLELY that Vaimes is scum reading him, is this correct? If so please explain how a singular town read of yours voting someone leads towards you scum reading the player especially given you've stated your playstyle change is to make your own reads.
I still believe that you are much more town than pozzai, and vaimes is a strong townread whom I also trust as a player. I want to formulate my own reads but other players will probably make better decisions than I, so in the near future, if I am the single person on a wagon, I will probably go with the popular opinion than pushing that wagon. Aside from that, Pozzai's recent posts were either fluffy or weak pokes at other players, which is quite scummy for me.
We're not waiting on anything so let's get this done.
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
@Iso - I can see X=Y as scum with Pozzai given the fact that neither of them are voting each other and X=Y's reasoning behind weakly town reading Pozzai is a read that makes plenty of sense to give a partner, similarly Pozzai ignoring X=Y and focusing on me is something that makes sense together. I can also see Pozzai being mafia without X=Y and X=Y being mafia without Pozzai, none of those are worlds I consider impossible. And yes; I can see X=Y+Ophidia as a world, Ophidias reaction towards you mentioning them together came across as over-defensive and both have largely avoided each other, Ophidia agreeing with the X=Y reads for no original reasons but not actually voting him fits as a partner. I've answered your question, please answer mine now please.
If we lynch through all those names and don't find 2 wolves, the game will be over.
Let's say we flip xequalsy town and I get N1'd. It's D2. Now what? Do you just want to keep swinging through the PoE of Iso/Pozzai/Ophedia (I don't think Typhon should be in the PoE at this point), or what?
Also I know I said we should just get on with lynching xequalsy but he's stated V/LA can we please not lynch him without a claim, thanks.
Active lurk it is then.
-
@Newcomb: Why are you ignoring the fact that scumX=Y confirms me as town?
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
Doing what I'm doing as scum is strictly -EV, especially if X=Y is my buddy.
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
Totally taking no credit for the push at all.
Most gambits are EV-, but people still take them, because when they work the payoff is huge. Do I think you're pulling one? No, but I disagree with your stated premise of being town!firmed by and x=y scumflip.
So this didn't quite sound right to me, so I decided to go back and watch this unfold.
Here's every post where Iso speaks to or about xequalsy and vice versa (commentary in bold):
Brilliantly done, really. This must be Iso "catching" him
It looks like he's trying to engage Iso here. It's probably the bit of this exchange I like the most from xequalsy.
Iso is having none of this engagement bull*****.
That's the second vote on xequalsy, but it should be noted that me, Newcomb and Regfan had recently expressed suspicion and Typhon was already there.
And this must be the pushing back that Iso is referring to? It's still just asking him to explain, which is super fair since he hadn't in the least.
So does Iso actually think he's been clear or is he just being an ass on purpose? My guess is the latter.
Still trying to engage. I'm not sure why scumxequalsy would bother to keep trying to interact with townIso, but that's a super meh read.
Like, if he's town I get this. Iso has called him scum for absolutely zero reasons and is just being a huge prick about it.
To newcomb, about xequalsy:
I, for one, would love to hear what those reasons are.
All of this is about xequalsy and other people
Iso did nothing approaching catching xequalsy. He called 4 scum, then voted the one that the most people were scumreading (Newcomb was before Iso's entrance, but Regfan and I expressed our suspicion between that and the vote). The wagon built up around that, and xequalsy did sort of disappear. But it's certainly not because of anything Iso did. Because, you know, Iso didn't do anything. Iso now pushing the narrative that he totally dunked xequalsy and his scumflip should clear him is frankly ridiculous. It looks more like an early bus that sort of got away from him that he's now trying to salvage by getting credit for it.
Really like and agree with Grapes stance re; ISO + X=Y world. I think it's super unlikely given I think ISO would happily bring up plenty of reasoning if this was a buss to look better late game and I don't think it's the sort of move scum would make D1 but don't think it's completely impossible, merely just very unlikely.
Yes? I feel like you want a "no" here, but you aren't getting one. Obviously I will continuously reevaluate and respond to new information, but yeah I'd probably want Iso/Pozzai wagons. Typhon and Ophidia are townier than those two, but still pretty firmly in my "not town" section.
I guess if he flipped town I would look at who got him lynched (Iso is not even in the top 3 of that, btw)
I've briefly entertained the notion that Iso's playing like this because he wants a wagon so people will pay attention to him, but.
I'd much rather just keep playing the game, and he'll either naturally be PoE'd out at some point, or he'll start giving reasoning and analysis. Less of a headache.
I wouldn't at all. Is Isos posts and play frustrating? Yep. Is his play borderline anti-town? Yep. Do I think he's scum from it? Not really. I also disagree with the "He fits with all my scum reads" section, I don't think an Iso+X=Y world is all that likely even with your point about Iso claiming more credit for the lynch than he actually did; I think X=Ys reaction towards it and vote on Iso points fairly heavily against them being the team. I think Ophidias reaction towards Iso makes them less likely a team, the only person I think he's more likely with is indeed Pozzzai in which case I'd rather lynch, you guessed it Pozzai. There's also been a few posts of Isos that I'm reading slightly towny.
I don't think we're playing the same game.
-
@Grapefruit: Yes, I caught X=Y early and yes, his push on me was ***** and he looked ***** for it. I commented on posts of his that I did not like without specifically stating why I did not like those posts because I wanted people to start paying attention to him (as I stated to Newcomb), and lo and behold, people started looking at X=Y. Maybe I'm just a psychic, but I pointed out that people should take note of him and everyone else did the heavy lifting for me. That's how the wagon played out, and I'm not getting any credit for it because that's how it played out. Do you disagree? If so, please explain the sheer quantity of people who are *****ting on my contribution to the X=Y wagon and not acknowledging that it clears me. Thanks!
-
@Regfan: I appreciate your willingness to work with me while I'm being a stubborn ****er but I haven't seen any compelling points against Pozzai. Every bit of posting I've seen of his reads off-the-cuff initial reactions to posts that don't necessarily have a lot of forethought or guile behind them. If people think Pozzai is scum for that, does that mean his town game is typically extremely analytical and less visceral? The extent of my experience with Pozzai is over video Mafia and I found him fairly easy to read there, and I have no reason to believe that him posting in his current capacity/style would be any more difficult for me to pick up scum vibes from. I think part of the problem is that Pozzai is struggling to find a player on his wavelength in this game and I think that if he finds said player and interacts with them in realtime, it will become apparent that Pozzai is trying to solve the game. If you ask me to point to any specific posts that make me feel this way, I would not be able to. My Mafia play has two stages: Autopilot and Doom Cannon. Sometimes I start the game in Doom Cannon and give it 150% and shank all of the scum on Day 1. Those are the games when I shine, and they typically involve me getting my way with most of the lynches. The way I catch scum is, to put it simply, interactively. I generate possible scumteams based on interactions, vote analysis, and my own crusades against people. I don't always share my thoughts, because rarely do they align with that of my compatriots. This is why I prefer the Socratic method - because a lot of my theories are 3 levels of paranoia and left-field-crazy deep, I'm saved the effort of smashing my face repeatedly into brick walls to turn them into candy...or some bizarre metaphor to that effect. I don't like engaging with people outside of my own personal agenda for how I plan to solve and win the game, I don't like repeating myself, and I don't like interfering with my own scumhunting by performing a paradigm shift too early. When I'm in autopilot, I very much go off of the way a person's posts make me feel initially with very little close reading involved in said feeling creation unless I see something I want elaborated upon. I also pay attention (for the most part) to use of my name because at least acknowledging that people are talking to you is polite, even if you don't necessarily do so in the way that they want you to. Anyway, all of this is about 80% of why I'm still in auto-pilot - because I need to see X=Y's flip in order to eliminate team possibilities and narrow it down to the correct "electron cloud". Does that make sense to you? I guess the easiest way to summarize it is to say that my reads are all gut until I choose to substantiate them further, but doing this too early is dangerous for me because there's less of a chance of me being able to perform a proper paradigm shift and instead regressing into tunneling. My best chance of learning more about the gamestate is when we have more information, and that's why an X=Y lynch is so important to me toDay - because if we lynch Pozzai on Day 1, I don't learn anything (it really seems like I'm the only person NOT interested in lynching Pozzai, so what exactly would we learn from his wagon?) and I put it at about 85% that Pozzai flipa town, which means we're almost certainly going to lynch X=Y on Day 2 for being the counterwagon to our flipped town, and to be perfectly frank, I love being right and rubbing it in everyone's faces - and these are all reasons Pozzai is a terrible lynch for toDay. With scumX=Y flipping, we have the game basically solved (or at least I do, and in this current situation, that's what matters). With Pozzai flipping - even if he is scum - we get nothing.
tom is 100% aware of all of this with regards to the way I play Mafia seeing as I talk about it often enough (and Newcomb SHOULD be, having played in the Invitational, but according to tom, he doesn't learn these sorts of things terribly well?) and that is why I will see tom dead if he continues to prompt me to be a less effective Mafia player.
So, hopefully that clears everything up for everyone, and we can progress with the game.
Good talk.
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
@Nacho - Went over Typhons Post #209 again, I think his point about scum lurking more in the early game in a playerlist like this despite it being hypocritical (And he does acknowledge his) is a solid one and similarly liked him questioning X=Y about his interaction with Grapefruit inside Post #89 because I saw a lot of scum motivation behind making that post as well -- it's not that X=Ys question was unreasonable there its more a case of the way he went about it comes across as scum interjecting themselves in the conversation. Similarly I liked his point about Ophidia overly mentioning and focusing on him being inexperienced inside Post #211, it's a point that I agree with; find that newer scum players use their experience as an excuse quite a lot more often (I do understand what you're coming re; it's an easy point to make as mafia though) but I liked it in the sense that it was him putting forward something original that I hadn't given a lot of thought to beforehand and hadn't picked up on myself in this game. I don't think either post are super towny but I liked the thought process from him there.
@Iso - Thanks for the elaboration on your thought process, very much appreciated. Your point about wanting to get information for yourself before considering a hard reset and analysing the game in 'hardmode' is somewhat understandable, not something I'd do but understand that others don't always play the game like I do. All that said I disagree with you opinion on the rooms stances at the moment? I think there's more people not wanting to lynch Pozzai today than there is people not wanting to lynch X=Y (I think everyone in the game has stated some sort of scum read on him). My issue with Pozzai isn't solely that his commenting and focus doesn't come across as him genuinely scumhunting (Though that is a large part of it) but also the fact that his reaction towards being scum read and pressure is a big red flag, his scum-read of me and attempt at focusing on semantics (like the order I questioned people about their read on him) comes across as him just posting bull***** as he goes; the fact he's barely commented on X=Y or the wagon on him is another huge concern.
Oh and Vaimes, I'm like ~5 posts behind you, you're not going to let me take top poster that easily are you? And yes, this is me trying to be nice and tell you to get back to this game and provide some content & thoughts.
Updated Reads:
Town (S->W): Tom, Vaimes, Newcomb, [Huge Gap], Nacho, Iso, Grapes, Delphi
Null: Typhon
Scum (S->W): Pozzai, [Gap], X=Y, [Gap], Ophi
(Although the placement of the weaker town reads is really hard to determine.)
It moves you out of the PoE for now easily, but not to the point where it won't be revisited depending on later flips. You are already one of my top town reads, I'm not sure what else you want there. I'm not going to treat you like you've been mechanically confirmed but I am going to continue town reading you, especially if x=y flips scum.
You are correct that you didn't do the heavy lifting, but I think you're giving yourself too much credit to say that no one was looking at x=y before your post.
In 150 Newcomb referred to x=y's 89 in a negative sense before you mentioned your 4 scum reads.
In your 150 you call out x=y, regfan, vaimes, and me and give no indication which one you find scummiest.
Before your 282 where you zero in on x=y, 4 people either focus on or scum read x=y. tom almost immeadiately pulls him out of your list and questions just that one. Reg and I scum read x=y in back to back posts in 204 and 205. And Typh votes them making his own case. All of this before you throw your weight behind your X=y read. Yes your scum read of x=y was part of what drew my eye to him, but what did moreso was Newcomb calling out the scummy post in the middle of his wall.
So yes you were an integral part of it, despite tom's claim to the contrary. Does it happen without you? I think so just not as quickly or easily. So no I don't disagree with your premise that you were part of the lynch. Which I did not disagree with in my sarcastic previous post either. I just saw a contradiction in your posts with regards to you taking credit and pointed it out. To the people not clearing you for it, I'd imagine they feel the same way I do, that you are less likely to be scum for it, but not wanting to write you off because it could have been a turbo bussing gambit as unlikely as it seems. Which is where Regfan settled as well.
So in short, I'm sorry if my sarcastic post made you angry. It was intended in fun and to let others see the contradiction in case it was alignment indicative. I'm also sorry if I came across as a total creep for talking about knowing your meta without playing with you. I have a crappy job where I sit at a computer all day. I play online chess and read mafia games like they're detective novels to pass the time. I didn't mean to offend you, just trying to play the game.
Ok Iso. Since I'm fully aware of this I guess I'm an expert.
I've never seen you not share your thoughts before. You do that sometimes? Please provide an example of a game where you've done that, and I will read it, or at least your iso. I vastly prefer the Iso that beats you over the head with his thoughts. If you're town, bring that one back.
I have seen you in autopilot mode twice. Once as as scum in [ongoing game], and once as town in Titanic Ultimatum when we lynched you and won despite you. But as many times as you were wrong in TU (~many)... well, let me let recently lynched Iso tell it:
So what is it that you've done in this game to be a successful townie? I've just been through your iso, and the answer is nothing.
So, you've finally given a reason for the Pozzai read. He's off the cuff. I get that. But I don't think that means a lot for some players, me in my normal playstyle being a pretty obvious example. And even with "normal" players it wouldn't mean much in this situation, because Pozzai pretty clearly didn't know what was going on in thread or talk about anything relevant with those off the cuff posts.
One specific thing:
What made you remember this experience? I seem to recall you not remembering in signups, and now this is so confident.
And since you've still haven't given your initial reason for scumreading xequalsy... would you? At least comment on 224/226 which are his contentful posts between you putting him on a team with zero thought and you dropping your vote with the stated intention to stay all day.
If you've got some free time... What do you think of this post from another game? Does it remind you of #511?
This quote from it " I have a bad habit of pushing people to their emotional brink, which frequently causes unpleasant feelings and implosions, and usually results in a vote on myself" pretty much describes a more hard edged version of what he did in this thread.
So yeah I'd say they are similar but his post in this thread comes from a more frustrated place.
Your turn, why is that or my response relevant?
I've been looking for an example of something else but I can't seem to find one from a game I can talk about. More on that later I guess.
If you can find a kosher example I'll be happy to take a look, but for now I'll have to wait and see. I will say I'm currently slightly less confident in my earlier read that this Iso matches his town meta than I previously was.
All of that hedging aside Iso is still one of my stronger town reads.
That is not a case that xequalsy/Iso are w/w. They could be is the only point I am trying to make. But if someone can show me how they are hard unaligned, I will promptly start townreading xequalsy because Iso is very probably scum here.