Yeah, they're pretty similar and I can see that parallel ringing alarm bells for you. I'll skim through his ISO in that game before bed tonight then. That said his explosion in 511 feels natural here. I think Iso is too good of a player to throw a tantrum as scum for being town read but not town cleared. I'm expecting him to talk more about the game as it goes on.
If you can find a kosher example I'll be happy to take a look, but for now I'll have to wait and see. I will say I'm currently slightly less confident in my earlier read that this Iso matches his town meta than I previously was.
All of that hedging aside Iso is still one of my stronger town reads.
Iso has to throw tantrums as scum or he'd be even easier to catch than he already is. Though if he were town the tone those tantrums take is more of an incredulous "what? I've caught the team what do you want from me?" whereas here he is more focused on being read town than being right.
What I'm really doing is trying to find a parallel to #171. There's an ~ok example that I can't use yet, but I can tell you for sure that the answer is certainly not #170 from the invitational
Oh, just regarding my #504:
That is not a case that xequalsy/Iso are w/w. They could be is the only point I am trying to make. But if someone can show me how they are hard unaligned, I will promptly start townreading xequalsy because Iso is very probably scum here.
The bolded was a lie. I just went back to remind myself why I wanted to lynch him in the first place and it... still stands.
In order of preference: Iso>xequalsy>>>>>>>>Pozzai
And yeah his 171 is nothing like his 170 here. But in Iso's defense he made a recent post I can't find about how his circumstances have changed and he can't post like he used to. And his tantrum here very much is "I caught x=y, what else do I need to do" so it's halfway between what you described. I'm curious to wait and see how a few things play out, but my read could change quickly. But what I keep coming back to is I can't see scum!Iso throwing a tantrum because 4 people didn't town clear him (without scum reading him) over this x=y lynch.
But what I keep coming back to is I can't see scum!Iso throwing a tantrum because 4 people didn't town clear him (without scum reading him) over this x=y lynch.
I agree it's silly, but why wouldn't that come from scum? TownIso doesn't give a ***** what you think of him as long as his lynches are going through.
I'm incredibly sorry about how this has gone on - as much as I was looking forward to this, I would have just passed on this if I had realised I was going to be missing a monster hunk of the day very first day like this. Things have not gone as expected.
Nevertheless, by this time tomorrow I will be back and providing enough content to hopefully smooth over the void in the game that my inactivity has created. Sorry again, and see you guys then.
Regfan, when you get a chance, would like to talk about your Newcomb/Grapes/Ophidia reads more in depth; I know you want me to get fully caught up early but Monday is funday and so probably won't be able to swing it.
@Grapefruit
If you've got some free time... What do you think of this post from another game? Does it remind you of #511?
I see that they are similar in that they're both a discussion of Iso's view of both of his playstyles, but I don't really see why it isn't something that he could talk about as scum or town.
I jut noticed Typhon has actually been gone for 5 days now, it's gone well and truly past the 48 hour V/LA absence and past the point where it could just be him strategically lurking. I'm hoping he's okay here.
@Nacho - Went over Typhons Post #209 again, I think his point about scum lurking more in the early game in a playerlist like this despite it being hypocritical (And he does acknowledge his) is a solid one and similarly liked him questioning X=Y about his interaction with Grapefruit inside Post #89 because I saw a lot of scum motivation behind making that post as well -- it's not that X=Ys question was unreasonable there its more a case of the way he went about it comes across as scum interjecting themselves in the conversation. Similarly I liked his point about Ophidia overly mentioning and focusing on him being inexperienced inside Post #211, it's a point that I agree with; find that newer scum players use their experience as an excuse quite a lot more often (I do understand what you're coming re; it's an easy point to make as mafia though) but I liked it in the sense that it was him putting forward something original that I hadn't given a lot of thought to beforehand and hadn't picked up on myself in this game. I don't think either post are super towny but I liked the thought process from him there.
@Iso - Thanks for the elaboration on your thought process, very much appreciated. Your point about wanting to get information for yourself before considering a hard reset and analysing the game in 'hardmode' is somewhat understandable, not something I'd do but understand that others don't always play the game like I do. All that said I disagree with you opinion on the rooms stances at the moment? I think there's more people not wanting to lynch Pozzai today than there is people not wanting to lynch X=Y (I think everyone in the game has stated some sort of scum read on him). My issue with Pozzai isn't solely that his commenting and focus doesn't come across as him genuinely scumhunting (Though that is a large part of it) but also the fact that his reaction towards being scum read and pressure is a big red flag, his scum-read of me and attempt at focusing on semantics (like the order I questioned people about their read on him) comes across as him just posting bull***** as he goes; the fact he's barely commented on X=Y or the wagon on him is another huge concern.
How is "scum tend to lurk" a good point? Do you agree with me that applying it to X=Y when he did was strange when many other people had lurked or no?
I think you're reading too much into his Grapes questioning; I don't think that "he's interjecting himself into the conversation" is what he was driving at but could be wrong on that.
I've got some thoughts on Newcomb. A few things he has said have been noted but not commented on, a few of his conclusions seemed just a little bit off. But I'm not really ready to talk about them. Remember that thing Newcomb said about how this game seems pretty easy but if it isn't he would have to consider [whoever he said]? Yeah, that's basically where I'm at. If we lynch through Xequalsy/Iso/Pozzai/Typhon/Ophidia and don't find 2-3 scum, it's probably you or Newcomb.
Who else are we waiting on to come back from whatever? I haven't had a new thought in quite some time and am rather ready for some flips.
If we lynch through all those names and don't find 2 wolves, the game will be over.
Let's say we flip xequalsy town and I get N1'd. It's D2. Now what? Do you just want to keep swinging through the PoE of Iso/Pozzai/Ophedia (I don't think Typhon should be in the PoE at this point), or what?
Also I know I said we should just get on with lynching xequalsy but he's stated V/LA can we please not lynch him without a claim, thanks.
To clarify, do you want a claim? (Just Newcomb/tom/Nacho answer please).
@X=Y - My issue with your analysis of your wagon is that while you may have mentioned a town read on Typhon at the start of your paragraph about him the way you went into it made it seem more like you have him as null. And having him as roughly null and saying you think the scum is x/y instead doesn't run smoothly.
I think this might just be an issue of it being a fairly weak town lean, but like I said, him being V/LA made me put him aside mostly.
X=y kinda gave up protesting his lynch up to this point. You can compare him to me, and see the difference between our posts. I tried harder to not get lynched than he did by explaining my thought process and being more open.
Eh I dunno, I don't think it's helpful to argue about being scum read for tonal reasons (which was definitely the case at first). Like Newcomb's early point - the post itself was written in a way to not give out my reads of the situation. Defending every little point initially just derails the thread to put more focus on me as town when it could be looking at scum.
Working on a reads list - not sure how helpful it'll be since apparently almost everyone is ok with my lynch, but hopefully it'll be useful to someone for D2 just as a summary of my perspective so far.
I find Grapes big post dedicated to Iso inside Post #515 to come across as very town and like his interactions with Tom about Isos meta in the following post. I want to take a look at the meta myself, might do it on the bus on the way to work otherwise when I get home. The interaction between both Tom/Grapes there strengthens my town read on both actually.
Also don't want a hammer until I've had time to read X=Y's promised reads post and assess it properly.
@Nacho - I don't want to discuss Ophidia with you until you're fully caught up since most of my real concerns with the slot are based on his recent postings. I'll go into my Newcomb & Grapes town reads today though. As for your Post #530, I think one of scums biggest difficulties is in the very early game, entering the thread and staying active is something that scum struggle to do so yes I think Typhons point there is solid but yes, there were others that did a similar thing so it's not something solely attributed to X=Y. Eh, I really didn't like X=Y's Grapes interjection.
Town:
Newcomb - the one who has been pushing the thread along constantly. I especially like the constant re-evaluation of the game state as it's going along - like thinking about who he should be taking a look at when I flip town for example even though I'm clearly a scum read of his. I agree with a lot of his thoughts/reads on people too. Won't lie, I'd definitely be paranoid if he survives a long time though but even then I would be hesitant to lynch him.
Nacho - I liked his entrance into the game, though admittedly there was a patch of the thread where he then disappeared again. But I find his series of catching up posts over the last two pages of the thread (~p10), as well as his response to being called out for disappearing very organic.
tom - There's not really any one thing I can think of that leads me to townreading tom. But sort of the general tone/vibe of his posts have been good. I'm a little cautious that part of it is from him scum reading Iso, but I think I had a town lean on him before that all happened anyway.
Town-lean:
Vaimes - I'm still not really sure how people manage to correctly read Vaimes every single game, but there hasn't really been anything that stood out to me. The thing that puts him as a town-lean for me though is that I kinda feel the direction of the game so far has gone in a way that scum!Vaimes wouldn't have dropped off in activity in the last few RL days? Like although I don't think any scum has been in particular trouble, and he could coast along - I think scum Vaimes would have at least made pushes towards Ophidia/me, even if it was simply a sheep lolcat or something.
Grapefruit - I disliked his catch up post that lead to his vote on me (not for his vote on me, but the reasoning is very much just in line with other people's thoughts and I'm not sure that his reasoning isn't a contradiction with his thoughts he expressed earlier in the thread - not sure I buy his just making a wording mistake regarding "entrance"). But, his most recent series of posts and his earliest series of posts have been pretty good. Like even though he is happy to vote for me, I like that he is critically looking over Typhon/Delphine who are also on my wagon. I also don't have the sense that this is from him knowing I'm town and wanting to look good for D2+.
Null:
Pozzai - I can follow along/agree with some of the points made against Pozzai (I think tom/Vaimes/Newcomb have made very compelling arguments/thoughts), but being honest, a large part of me also is a bit hesitant because Regfan has been the one heavily pushing this wagon. Was planning on re-reading his meta to see if that gave me a better insight into him, but RL meant that didn't happen.
Typhon - typhon is black because I'm not sure there is enough to go on him since he was V/LA for the bulk of the game (at least when all the action kicked into gear). Gun to my head for v/w on him, I'd still go with town, but I think he definitely needs to be the focus of some attention tomorrow.
Scum-lean:
Ophidia - I didn't mind the self consciousness early on, but similar to Delphine, there's an element of not really doing anything until asked to that bugs me. Especially having to be prompted to make #494. Eh.
Regfan - I still think the most likely scum not on my wagon is Regfan. I liked the mindset that had him going over my post on Pozzai. But overall, I think his approach of voting for Pozzai, but also expressing his happiness with my wagon kinda seems to be trying to absolve him of any responsibility when I get mislynched. I get that I'm his second scum read so it's by no means a bad thing if I get lynched, I can see and follow that PoV. But like his recent exchange with Iso regarding voting for Pozzai instead, it kinda feels weak to me, I'm not sure he believes he had any chance of convincing anyone (especially Iso who had already declared his vote done for the day) to lynch Pozzai instead. Especially coupled with his statement that my flip isn't as informative to him as Pozzai's flip.
Scum:
Iso - with some distance from the game due to this weekend, I'm still not sure how much of my scum read on Iso is just taking too personally being scumread by him as well as his snap/overdramatic statement that his vote is staying on me. I'm not sure how objective I can be on that so I won't bother, but honestly I find other parts of his play suspicious too. His most recent exchange for example, I kinda feel he has backed himself into a bit of a corner regarding his strength of my read, so doing anything but affirming how a scum flip town clears him would seem odd. The other thing is that I think tom/Iso are unaligned - don't think town!tom would be misreading iso to such an extent that apparently iso is his preferred lynch over me.
Though in the slim chance that we are in the world where iso is town, I would definitely look at tom in detail. In that world, his reluctance to world build a scum team would be suspicious. I'm not sure I believe that he can think that Iso/me can be w/w. But I don't think him and Iso are w/w so...
DelphiBlue - I've talked already about the passivity that I dislike. But in #480, I don't buy that her entire game view is so distorted by my play that she needs my flip to reconsider the game state.
Team?:
In terms of worldbuilding, Delphi/Iso/Regfan/(Ophidia) seems a bit too out there for me. Although I find both Delphine/Iso scummiest, I think I'm sticking with my thought that it's unlikely both are scum. The only world I can see both being scum would be the precise team Delphi/Iso/Nacho, someone doing really well in the thread such that Delphine feels okay to hop onto my wagon at that point in time. So I guess bring in Pozzai/typhon maybe?
So yeah, please look at Iso&DelphiBlue D2 - in particular, please get her to fully explain #355, I'm sure N1 is long enough for her to formulate her experience on trying to read me this game.
Especially if Pozzai also turns out to be town, please come back and re-evaluate D1 being mostly t/t. I think Delphine would almost certainly be scum there.
-For Ophidia, I essentially have two possibilities in my mind. I have one where Ophidia is scum and extremely unsure about himself and is so scared of posting content that he tries to avoid it as much as possible, and I have another where Ophidia is town and genuine in what he says. The reason why things like Ophidia's snark to Vaimes and the Grapefruit pushing against the grain is because it's pretty far from my picture of him as scum while not at all outside what I'd expect from him as town. I think that your attack on him for "level 1 content" is a bit harsh considering he's Chinese and English is not his first language and translation from one language to another is pretty difficult and since it's usually not as simple as word to word translation it takes a pretty absurd command of both languages to be able to pick up on things like nuance which is how you start pushing past first level reasoning. I do agree with you that he's too heavily relying on people to provide guidance, but I don't think that it's a strong scumtell; I think it's equivalent to an employee asking too many questions at work; doesn't mean that they aren't trying necessarily.
-For Regfan, his pushback against me and how that unfolded is precisely why I started feeling good about him. I already brought this point up I think so I won't go more in depth but if he were scum pushing back against me as town I don't really think that his response would look the way it did; I don't think he'd make as big of a deal out of it as he did and I do think that the shallow he provided is more in depth than what he would bring up as scum.
Your approach to him is similar to mine; there are small things that I look for and I'll certainly drive at things pretty hard when they feel iffy to me, but ultimately the biggest Regfan scumtells are fizzling out which is probably not something I'll be around to see (but as town!Regfan gets near endgame he gets more obnoxious and frantic whereas when scum he fizzles hard), and making scumreads that don't really make sense and not being able to defend him. The only times when I imagine I will be really confident (aka a Vaimes level read) is when he gets to a point where he feels that the game is solved, which certainly isn't Day 1 but isn't something I've seen him fake convincingly as scum (although my experience with his scumgame is limited since he replaces into town slots as often as he does).
Your little twinge on me is silly, as you probably know; I was making a point that people can and do read each other off a limited amount of posts, which didn't seem like something he was aware of in the post scumreading Tom. I'm not sure that it makes sense for me to try to get Grapes townreading me by doing the same thing he was scumread Tom for but maybe I'm missing your point?
I thought that thing Pozzai did with Regfan was ~weird. Getting in a huge huff at tom when he asked Pozzai if Regfan was his scumbuddy, then immediately throwing down a vote on Regfan.
I don't remember this, but it's something to check back on when I have a little more time in front of me (aka never hahahahahahaHAHAHAHAHAHAAAAA).
Tom would totally vote iso here. It's not a terrible vote, but it wouldn't really do anything. I've got some personal experience that some pressure will not make Iso give a crap.
What changed your mind?
Was it just confidence of Iso being scum?
Er, my point was that his personality appears really different/less assertive in this game than his completed ones from a couple of months ago. Like, this is town!him giving an early read in one of those:
<snip>
From what I can tell, his passivity in this game is intentional/learned, not a baseline personality thing. I do agree with whoever pointed out that "hope this works" is town indicative for a newbie. But I find his approach to this game very inorganic b/c he's spent so much time in isos/answering specific, sometimes repetitive questions, and giving excuses for why he's not posting more/better, and thus hard to sort.
I think you're right that he's intentionally a bit more passive this game, but his explanation for that is that he's trying to be more thoughtful and take a more active role than he has in the past. I don't understand why the self-consciousness can't be coming from town; I think it's fairly natural to have a decent amount of it and I think that the idea that he's so nervous that he's sputtering out "I'm new, I'm new" constantly is ridiculous when he's shown ease in responding to people and interacting with them in spades.
I understand feeling his approach is inorganic, just don't think it's a scum thing. Think that lots of newbies struggle with coming up with an organic approach to games; it's hard getting a good rhythm going and especially when you don't speak the language and you're trying a completely new approach. I think that the scum game Tom linked is far more what I'd expect from Ophidia as scum this game; crumples pretty solidly under pressure and keeps the nervousness out of the thread because he connects it with his scum game.
I actually end up liking a couple things in 353; I like his attack on Typhrous even though I don't like how (floaty?) the read is. I'm a bit skeptical of X=Y + Pozzai with X=Y's defense of Pozzai posts in the thread currently, I think X=Y is under a lot of pressure right here and I think it makes more sense for him to try to make his partners look good via distancing versus defending a partner against Regfan, but it might be something he's too new to pick up on.
I don't understand why his read on Delphine is as sticky as it is; he's shown he's completely capable of pushing beyond Level 1 reasoning but his Delphine read isn't anything beyond "she's taking a backseat. she's so passive (and it hasn't grown any more complicated since then as shown by a skim of the recent reads list).
I liked the QT thing; saw Regfan also picked up on it, won't really get into it. I like his attack against Regfan over letting him get lynched over Pozzai; I'm not sure if I'm willing to buy it as something that's actually happening here but I think it's a good thing to look out for.
His 354 on the other hand, don't really like as much. The overall tone troubles me; he seems like he's avoiding giving a definite position on Pozzai (especially with lines such as "I have to read further to understand his town meta" which seems overly excessive and it also feels like he's trying to back away from his Pozzai defense while still not really hardpushing him. The wall overall doesn't really seem to say much; it seems like the strongest Pozzai-related point X=Y has is that his tone v Regfan seemed townish but he ended up calling that null in his catchup, so I don't really understand where the overall townread comes from.
Disappearing again, Regfan, would also love to be caught up before Wednesday but I don't have big chunks of time to read the game before Wednesday before I get there and alternative to these catchup chunks is being gone for a few days and then MASSIVE POST. I could half-ass it a bit and expedite the catchup but it's not like I haven't read everything or mostly everything at this point (just haven't necessarily processed everything), I don't feel super pressed to drop the thorough catch up style because game is mostly going how I'd like it to and want to have a very strong handle on the game before we end things today if possible. Looking forward to your Grapes/Newcomb commentary.
@Pozzai reading your posts makes me feel a bit slow because I'm not comprehending your Regfan case at all. Can you explain it to me in simple terms? What I got out of it is that you don't like how he skips asking you why you asked questions and he's making a case and behaving in the same way to the behavior that he's calling out. But I have no idea if I'm parsing that correctly.
In short:
I fail to see how Regfan scumreading me for basically playing identically to what he's experienced in another media ever comes from a town pov.
What Regfan is calling out for being 'scummy' is for me my personality. It seems that he's pushing "what is in general considered scummy" over "what is considered scummy of this said individual", he's then backing it up with 0 interest in what any of the questions he consider scummy from me, no interest in determining my thought process, because it is easier to just stick to "guys, this is overall a scumtell on more people than not"
I am not saying Regfan is playing like he accuses me of doing, I'm saying that Regfan is avoiding using any prior knowledge he has of me to determine my alignment, and at the same time ignores the prior experiences he does have with me.
@DelphiBlue why would you consider my readlist to have an impact in your read on me, considering our previous experiences?
This is a mini and it's not multiball, duh. Consider yourself on thin ice for continuing to ask bad questions.
Not good enough, my reads that game was based mainly around townreads, so why would this be otherwise? Why do you think your best way of figuring out my alignment is on something you've failed on twice, probably even more times if we include videomafia? Instead of interacting with me?
Pozzai, I don't understand what you were trying to say in 235; why wouldn't you pay attention to Regfan early day 1 and how is page 5 not early day 1...?
I don't like his attack in 236, either; while I don't mind the video mafia reference (it's silly but it's something people do), "I keep my cards close to my chest" is nowhere near a rebuttal for "your attempts to sort people right now don't look genuine".
And again 239 seems to be completely missing the point unless I'm really really bad at reading unless he's claiming that he always has focus on things that have nothing to do with alignment in every game.
1) I don't actively try to solve the alignments of people I don't know well/feel I have a strong read on early day1, like ever. I try to figure out the alignment of those I do, and work outwards from there. Therefore Regfan isn't a person that is the typical archetype I try to figure out early. This doesn't mean I wont have a strong opinion when Regfan starts pushing a scumread on me that from all experience and knowledge he has on me, should be NAI.
2) Again, this would be fair, if Regfan had showed ANY interest in determining my alignment, he didn't, and still hasn't. The 'rebuttal' was a jab and an invitation for him to show he was thinking about my alignment by actually backing his accusation up and ripping my reasons for asking specific questions apart. The invitation has been stated repeatedly throughout the thread, and he has yet to do anything but stick to his guns instead of trying to determine my alignment.
3) Was mainly a response to to the first part of Regfan's statement.
Do you think that Regfan has done anything in particular to figure out my alignment? Do you think he's ever investigated any of the reasons he consider me scum, outside the Tom thing, which he then later follows up on by saying "the amount of focus I put on Tom for that reason was out of proportion" when I basically hadn't brought it up on my own but instead was asked about from Regfan constantly?
Is Regfan to your knowledge typically a person that sticks with his initial scumread, and never try to 'solve' it outside of lynching it?
Scum:
Iso - with some distance from the game due to this weekend, I'm still not sure how much of my scum read on Iso is just taking too personally being scumread by him as well as his snap/overdramatic statement that his vote is staying on me. I'm not sure how objective I can be on that so I won't bother, but honestly I find other parts of his play suspicious too. His most recent exchange for example, I kinda feel he has backed himself into a bit of a corner regarding his strength of my read, so doing anything but affirming how a scum flip town clears him would seem odd. The other thing is that I think tom/Iso are unaligned - don't think town!tom would be misreading iso to such an extent that apparently iso is his preferred lynch over me.
Though in the slim chance that we are in the world where iso is town, I would definitely look at tom in detail. In that world, his reluctance to world build a scum team would be suspicious. I'm not sure I believe that he can think that Iso/me can be w/w. But I don't think him and Iso are w/w so...
DelphiBlue - I've talked already about the passivity that I dislike. But in #480, I don't buy that her entire game view is so distorted by my play that she needs my flip to reconsider the game state.
Can you talk to me about these two. Is the order important? Because I don't really get why from your perspective Delphine should be lower than Iso? Is passivity so damning for you?
I have a long day tomorrow, so would really appreciate it not being hammered when I return tomorrow.
I kiiiiiinda? Like the "please let me read up a readslist" part alongside the 'should I claim' parts. Feels somewhat earnest to me.
What do people think of his readslist? If scum!X=Y, does he read all his partners as low-tier people?
Tom and Newcomb I mentally noted somewhere being unlikely partners with X=Y, personally I read Vaimes and Grapes town, now add myself.
That leaves Nacho and all the neutrals and down, so is Nacho slipped in there as buddy, am I wrong on some of the above, or is X=Y's standard reaction to scumread his buddies/planned before chat died?
@Nacho
You asked me two questions about Iso, but I think I need to backburner that for my own sanity. Suffice to say that if xequalsy flips town that is where I will be tomorrow, and if he is scum... idk.
Well, that's what I was gonna say... I actually kind of like xequalsy's readslist. I mean, I disagree with a bit of it, notably Regfan/Delphine, but that's ok. I like where it seems to be coming from though. It really comes off like a townie that thinks he's going to be lynched trying to leave a legacy, not scum trying to save himself or obfuscate. And they aren't bad reads, even the ones I disagree with. Though his proposed team of Iso/Delphine/Nacho with Nacho as his second highest townread is a bit... horrific.
I kind of like Pozzai's little flurry too. His interaction with Regfan reminds me of myself and fonti in that game that never happened. Mrgle.
@Nacho
You asked me two questions about Iso, but I think I need to backburner that for my own sanity. Suffice to say that if xequalsy flips town that is where I will be tomorrow, and if he is scum... idk.
Well, that's what I was gonna say... I actually kind of like xequalsy's readslist. I mean, I disagree with a bit of it, notably Regfan/Delphine, but that's ok. I like where it seems to be coming from though. It really comes off like a townie that thinks he's going to be lynched trying to leave a legacy, not scum trying to save himself or obfuscate. And they aren't bad reads, even the ones I disagree with. Though his proposed team of Iso/Delphine/Nacho with Nacho as his second highest townread is a bit... horrific.
I kind of like Pozzai's little flurry too. His interaction with Regfan reminds me of myself and fonti in that game that never happened. Mrgle.
That was kind of my conclussion as well, I mean, it could be different because there's not a timer on the day and as such he's not condemned, but still?
If he were to be lynched and flips scum, I feel like his Nacho read, and that on you are the 'weakest' in his towncircle compared to location/strength of them.
If he's scum, what would your guess on team be right now? X=Y/ISO/Nacho ?
If he's scum, what would your guess on team be right now? X=Y/ISO/Nacho ?
If he flipped scum it doesn't clear Iso, but it definitely pushes back any discussion on Iso for a day or two. Which, to be fair, may have been the point. Without having reread super recently, I'd want to look at Typhon, Ophidia, and perhaps Nacho as well.
Want to go over X=Y's big reads post properly when I'm at a laptop tonight but on a skim dislike most of his reasoning behind his scum reads on Iso/Delphine and a few of the town reads particularly Tom/Nacho come across very shallow.
@Pozzai - Again, can't restate it enough; I don't think Video Mafia translates to Forum Mafia at all, I've met up with some people from MS IRL and played mafia with them, never used anything they've done IRL to attempt to get a read on them in a game; most I've ever used is casual chat we've had IRL specifically about FM in FM and that's only as an offhanded comment. I'm not scum reading your 'personality', I'm scum reading the fact that nothing you've focused on seems remotely relevant to determining alignment, you've not commented on any of the major topics in the game whatsoever and you're using your vote on me to focus overly on me rather than comment on them; I explicitly asked you your thoughts on game-actions several times with no response but you're continuously stating "He's not trying to sort me" which isn't the case at all.
@Nacho, below are my elaborated reads on Grapes/Newcomb, apologies fort he lack of actual links, impossible to do using phone/work combo.
Grapes
I still like his entrance posts particularly the read and attitude about Tom inside them and find his reaction towards being town read in #82 to one of the stronger town tells in the thread. I also liked his interaction/response to me in #194 and #201. Didn't like several parts of his reads list in #373 ie. His comment about himself, his stance on Iso albeit his explanation behind that one made some sense and his stance on Newcomb. I also didn't like his stance and reasoning behind reading Ophi town inside #405 and or his interaction with me about it in #410 and #413. I really liked his thoughts about Iso inside #501 as well as his conversation with Tom about him after that. So pretty much overall there's plenty of things that point towards him being town but his reads list and way he's handling Ophi weaken the read slightly.
Newcomb
I liked his initial explanation behind his read on Vaimes and the way he was handling him in the early game as well as when he touched on it again in #277. I also found the way he questioned Ophidia inside #150 to come across as genuinely trying to solve his alignment. Lots of his thoughts and reads inside his #314 mirrored mine and came across town. I found the frustration shown from him in his exchanges with Iso to be a solid town tell and liked that he was also prodding you to get to catching up and like that he's equally frustrated as me with how the game seems to be stagnating. I think my best way of reading him is looking for an absence of his town-play and so far haven't had many concerns or issues with his play or posting at all. I mean I don't want to be wrong here since he'll never let me live it down especially after DLGN last game but I actually think he's very likely town here.
And thanks pozzai, I'm going to reread Reg's interaction with you. I take it you disagree with his claim that video mafia doesn't translate to forum mafia?
Read X=Ys post a few more timss on my phonw and his reads v his team guesses feeel very disjointed, don't come across as genuine at all and his reasoning behind the Pozzai read is hugely problematic.
@Vaimes, please don't hammer until I'm at least home and can give some final updated thoughts. And I was so close to overtaking you on post count, God damn.
Also please hold off on hammering before I catch up fully, Regfan will have spasms overnight if I don't provide a well thought out and elegant comment on every single post that's been made this game.
Pozzai, I haven't yet looked at you and Regfan's exchange in depth. From early interactions I'd say that yeah, Regfan is trying to figure you out. I don't think there is too much reassessing in his ISO but that's not particularly problematic; most people don't show signs of reassessing unless something particularly interesting happens and I can see why he's maintained his push so far, but I'll give you a better answer when I'm caught up.
@Vaimes - Giving me false hope like that is just cruel.
@Nacho - Don't need you to comment on every post at all (I know you're being hyperbolic) but would very happily settle with you power reading the thread and stating your overall thoughts/reads on players and more recent events, would really like your thoughts with what you agree/disagree with on my Grapes/Newcomb since you asked for them as well as your thoughts on X=Y's recent posts.
Ophidia, I'm really confused by your tom trajectory. You go from nullreading him in (#154, saying something he did is "quite scummy" in #189 but asking him to stop doing it rather than really pushing him for it, and now he is at the top of your "Most Likely Town." Can you elaborate on how you came to that read?
Delphi, at the time of the post I have no idea about tom's playstyle. I have now played with tom for an extended period of time, and judging by his more recent posts and his town games I have just read, I guess he is the kind of person who talks like that as town.
Don't have time for this tonight. I had an emotionally draining rehearsal and I'm just. done.
Pretty much this for me too, just replace rehearsal with work, won't get home until after 10 from the looks of it. Might try and get on again before I head to work tomorrow morning, hope to have heard from Typhon an more recent stuff from Nacho by then.
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Iso has to throw tantrums as scum or he'd be even easier to catch than he already is. Though if he were town the tone those tantrums take is more of an incredulous "what? I've caught the team what do you want from me?" whereas here he is more focused on being read town than being right.
What I'm really doing is trying to find a parallel to #171. There's an ~ok example that I can't use yet, but I can tell you for sure that the answer is certainly not #170 from the invitational
The bolded was a lie. I just went back to remind myself why I wanted to lynch him in the first place and it... still stands.
In order of preference: Iso>xequalsy>>>>>>>>Pozzai
And yeah his 171 is nothing like his 170 here. But in Iso's defense he made a recent post I can't find about how his circumstances have changed and he can't post like he used to. And his tantrum here very much is "I caught x=y, what else do I need to do" so it's halfway between what you described. I'm curious to wait and see how a few things play out, but my read could change quickly. But what I keep coming back to is I can't see scum!Iso throwing a tantrum because 4 people didn't town clear him (without scum reading him) over this x=y lynch.
I agree it's silly, but why wouldn't that come from scum? TownIso doesn't give a ***** what you think of him as long as his lynches are going through.
I'm incredibly sorry about how this has gone on - as much as I was looking forward to this, I would have just passed on this if I had realised I was going to be missing a monster hunk of the day very first day like this. Things have not gone as expected.
Nevertheless, by this time tomorrow I will be back and providing enough content to hopefully smooth over the void in the game that my inactivity has created. Sorry again, and see you guys then.
I see that they are similar in that they're both a discussion of Iso's view of both of his playstyles, but I don't really see why it isn't something that he could talk about as scum or town.
How is "scum tend to lurk" a good point? Do you agree with me that applying it to X=Y when he did was strange when many other people had lurked or no?
I think you're reading too much into his Grapes questioning; I don't think that "he's interjecting himself into the conversation" is what he was driving at but could be wrong on that.
Going to go through the thread in more detail now - I had a quick skim.
To clarify, do you want a claim? (Just Newcomb/tom/Nacho answer please).
I'm Captain Sergei, VT.
I think this might just be an issue of it being a fairly weak town lean, but like I said, him being V/LA made me put him aside mostly.
Eh I dunno, I don't think it's helpful to argue about being scum read for tonal reasons (which was definitely the case at first). Like Newcomb's early point - the post itself was written in a way to not give out my reads of the situation. Defending every little point initially just derails the thread to put more focus on me as town when it could be looking at scum.
Working on a reads list - not sure how helpful it'll be since apparently almost everyone is ok with my lynch, but hopefully it'll be useful to someone for D2 just as a summary of my perspective so far.
Also don't want a hammer until I've had time to read X=Y's promised reads post and assess it properly.
@Nacho - I don't want to discuss Ophidia with you until you're fully caught up since most of my real concerns with the slot are based on his recent postings. I'll go into my Newcomb & Grapes town reads today though. As for your Post #530, I think one of scums biggest difficulties is in the very early game, entering the thread and staying active is something that scum struggle to do so yes I think Typhons point there is solid but yes, there were others that did a similar thing so it's not something solely attributed to X=Y. Eh, I really didn't like X=Y's Grapes interjection.
Newcomb - the one who has been pushing the thread along constantly. I especially like the constant re-evaluation of the game state as it's going along - like thinking about who he should be taking a look at when I flip town for example even though I'm clearly a scum read of his. I agree with a lot of his thoughts/reads on people too. Won't lie, I'd definitely be paranoid if he survives a long time though but even then I would be hesitant to lynch him.
Nacho - I liked his entrance into the game, though admittedly there was a patch of the thread where he then disappeared again. But I find his series of catching up posts over the last two pages of the thread (~p10), as well as his response to being called out for disappearing very organic.
tom - There's not really any one thing I can think of that leads me to townreading tom. But sort of the general tone/vibe of his posts have been good. I'm a little cautious that part of it is from him scum reading Iso, but I think I had a town lean on him before that all happened anyway.
Town-lean:
Vaimes - I'm still not really sure how people manage to correctly read Vaimes every single game, but there hasn't really been anything that stood out to me. The thing that puts him as a town-lean for me though is that I kinda feel the direction of the game so far has gone in a way that scum!Vaimes wouldn't have dropped off in activity in the last few RL days? Like although I don't think any scum has been in particular trouble, and he could coast along - I think scum Vaimes would have at least made pushes towards Ophidia/me, even if it was simply a sheep lolcat or something.
Grapefruit - I disliked his catch up post that lead to his vote on me (not for his vote on me, but the reasoning is very much just in line with other people's thoughts and I'm not sure that his reasoning isn't a contradiction with his thoughts he expressed earlier in the thread - not sure I buy his just making a wording mistake regarding "entrance"). But, his most recent series of posts and his earliest series of posts have been pretty good. Like even though he is happy to vote for me, I like that he is critically looking over Typhon/Delphine who are also on my wagon. I also don't have the sense that this is from him knowing I'm town and wanting to look good for D2+.
Null:
Pozzai - I can follow along/agree with some of the points made against Pozzai (I think tom/Vaimes/Newcomb have made very compelling arguments/thoughts), but being honest, a large part of me also is a bit hesitant because Regfan has been the one heavily pushing this wagon. Was planning on re-reading his meta to see if that gave me a better insight into him, but RL meant that didn't happen.
Typhon - typhon is black because I'm not sure there is enough to go on him since he was V/LA for the bulk of the game (at least when all the action kicked into gear). Gun to my head for v/w on him, I'd still go with town, but I think he definitely needs to be the focus of some attention tomorrow.
Scum-lean:
Ophidia - I didn't mind the self consciousness early on, but similar to Delphine, there's an element of not really doing anything until asked to that bugs me. Especially having to be prompted to make #494. Eh.
Regfan - I still think the most likely scum not on my wagon is Regfan. I liked the mindset that had him going over my post on Pozzai. But overall, I think his approach of voting for Pozzai, but also expressing his happiness with my wagon kinda seems to be trying to absolve him of any responsibility when I get mislynched. I get that I'm his second scum read so it's by no means a bad thing if I get lynched, I can see and follow that PoV. But like his recent exchange with Iso regarding voting for Pozzai instead, it kinda feels weak to me, I'm not sure he believes he had any chance of convincing anyone (especially Iso who had already declared his vote done for the day) to lynch Pozzai instead. Especially coupled with his statement that my flip isn't as informative to him as Pozzai's flip.
Scum:
Iso - with some distance from the game due to this weekend, I'm still not sure how much of my scum read on Iso is just taking too personally being scumread by him as well as his snap/overdramatic statement that his vote is staying on me. I'm not sure how objective I can be on that so I won't bother, but honestly I find other parts of his play suspicious too. His most recent exchange for example, I kinda feel he has backed himself into a bit of a corner regarding his strength of my read, so doing anything but affirming how a scum flip town clears him would seem odd. The other thing is that I think tom/Iso are unaligned - don't think town!tom would be misreading iso to such an extent that apparently iso is his preferred lynch over me.
Though in the slim chance that we are in the world where iso is town, I would definitely look at tom in detail. In that world, his reluctance to world build a scum team would be suspicious. I'm not sure I believe that he can think that Iso/me can be w/w. But I don't think him and Iso are w/w so...
DelphiBlue - I've talked already about the passivity that I dislike. But in #480, I don't buy that her entire game view is so distorted by my play that she needs my flip to reconsider the game state.
Team?:
In terms of worldbuilding, Delphi/Iso/Regfan/(Ophidia) seems a bit too out there for me. Although I find both Delphine/Iso scummiest, I think I'm sticking with my thought that it's unlikely both are scum. The only world I can see both being scum would be the precise team Delphi/Iso/Nacho, someone doing really well in the thread such that Delphine feels okay to hop onto my wagon at that point in time. So I guess bring in Pozzai/typhon maybe?
Especially if Pozzai also turns out to be town, please come back and re-evaluate D1 being mostly t/t. I think Delphine would almost certainly be scum there.
-For Ophidia, I essentially have two possibilities in my mind. I have one where Ophidia is scum and extremely unsure about himself and is so scared of posting content that he tries to avoid it as much as possible, and I have another where Ophidia is town and genuine in what he says. The reason why things like Ophidia's snark to Vaimes and the Grapefruit pushing against the grain is because it's pretty far from my picture of him as scum while not at all outside what I'd expect from him as town. I think that your attack on him for "level 1 content" is a bit harsh considering he's Chinese and English is not his first language and translation from one language to another is pretty difficult and since it's usually not as simple as word to word translation it takes a pretty absurd command of both languages to be able to pick up on things like nuance which is how you start pushing past first level reasoning. I do agree with you that he's too heavily relying on people to provide guidance, but I don't think that it's a strong scumtell; I think it's equivalent to an employee asking too many questions at work; doesn't mean that they aren't trying necessarily.
-For Regfan, his pushback against me and how that unfolded is precisely why I started feeling good about him. I already brought this point up I think so I won't go more in depth but if he were scum pushing back against me as town I don't really think that his response would look the way it did; I don't think he'd make as big of a deal out of it as he did and I do think that the shallow he provided is more in depth than what he would bring up as scum.
Your approach to him is similar to mine; there are small things that I look for and I'll certainly drive at things pretty hard when they feel iffy to me, but ultimately the biggest Regfan scumtells are fizzling out which is probably not something I'll be around to see (but as town!Regfan gets near endgame he gets more obnoxious and frantic whereas when scum he fizzles hard), and making scumreads that don't really make sense and not being able to defend him. The only times when I imagine I will be really confident (aka a Vaimes level read) is when he gets to a point where he feels that the game is solved, which certainly isn't Day 1 but isn't something I've seen him fake convincingly as scum (although my experience with his scumgame is limited since he replaces into town slots as often as he does).
Your little twinge on me is silly, as you probably know; I was making a point that people can and do read each other off a limited amount of posts, which didn't seem like something he was aware of in the post scumreading Tom. I'm not sure that it makes sense for me to try to get Grapes townreading me by doing the same thing he was scumread Tom for but maybe I'm missing your point?
---
Everyone needs to chill with the walling.
I'm coming around to the idea of Iso being town, solely based on the recent tl;dr I skimmed.
Feel free to avoid them completely if you just want to read me as town and sheep my reads.
I don't remember this, but it's something to check back on when I have a little more time in front of me (aka never hahahahahahaHAHAHAHAHAHAAAAA).
What changed your mind?
Was it just confidence of Iso being scum?
I think you're right that he's intentionally a bit more passive this game, but his explanation for that is that he's trying to be more thoughtful and take a more active role than he has in the past. I don't understand why the self-consciousness can't be coming from town; I think it's fairly natural to have a decent amount of it and I think that the idea that he's so nervous that he's sputtering out "I'm new, I'm new" constantly is ridiculous when he's shown ease in responding to people and interacting with them in spades.
I understand feeling his approach is inorganic, just don't think it's a scum thing. Think that lots of newbies struggle with coming up with an organic approach to games; it's hard getting a good rhythm going and especially when you don't speak the language and you're trying a completely new approach. I think that the scum game Tom linked is far more what I'd expect from Ophidia as scum this game; crumples pretty solidly under pressure and keeps the nervousness out of the thread because he connects it with his scum game.
I actually end up liking a couple things in 353; I like his attack on Typhrous even though I don't like how (floaty?) the read is. I'm a bit skeptical of X=Y + Pozzai with X=Y's defense of Pozzai posts in the thread currently, I think X=Y is under a lot of pressure right here and I think it makes more sense for him to try to make his partners look good via distancing versus defending a partner against Regfan, but it might be something he's too new to pick up on.
I don't understand why his read on Delphine is as sticky as it is; he's shown he's completely capable of pushing beyond Level 1 reasoning but his Delphine read isn't anything beyond "she's taking a backseat. she's so passive (and it hasn't grown any more complicated since then as shown by a skim of the recent reads list).
I liked the QT thing; saw Regfan also picked up on it, won't really get into it. I like his attack against Regfan over letting him get lynched over Pozzai; I'm not sure if I'm willing to buy it as something that's actually happening here but I think it's a good thing to look out for.
His 354 on the other hand, don't really like as much. The overall tone troubles me; he seems like he's avoiding giving a definite position on Pozzai (especially with lines such as "I have to read further to understand his town meta" which seems overly excessive and it also feels like he's trying to back away from his Pozzai defense while still not really hardpushing him. The wall overall doesn't really seem to say much; it seems like the strongest Pozzai-related point X=Y has is that his tone v Regfan seemed townish but he ended up calling that null in his catchup, so I don't really understand where the overall townread comes from.
Disappearing again, Regfan, would also love to be caught up before Wednesday but I don't have big chunks of time to read the game before Wednesday before I get there and alternative to these catchup chunks is being gone for a few days and then MASSIVE POST. I could half-ass it a bit and expedite the catchup but it's not like I haven't read everything or mostly everything at this point (just haven't necessarily processed everything), I don't feel super pressed to drop the thorough catch up style because game is mostly going how I'd like it to and want to have a very strong handle on the game before we end things today if possible. Looking forward to your Grapes/Newcomb commentary.
I'm not a fan of repeating the sitting-around-not-wanting-Iso-to-be-right part of the Invitational.
In short:
I fail to see how Regfan scumreading me for basically playing identically to what he's experienced in another media ever comes from a town pov.
What Regfan is calling out for being 'scummy' is for me my personality. It seems that he's pushing "what is in general considered scummy" over "what is considered scummy of this said individual", he's then backing it up with 0 interest in what any of the questions he consider scummy from me, no interest in determining my thought process, because it is easier to just stick to "guys, this is overall a scumtell on more people than not"
I am not saying Regfan is playing like he accuses me of doing, I'm saying that Regfan is avoiding using any prior knowledge he has of me to determine my alignment, and at the same time ignores the prior experiences he does have with me.
Not good enough, my reads that game was based mainly around townreads, so why would this be otherwise? Why do you think your best way of figuring out my alignment is on something you've failed on twice, probably even more times if we include videomafia? Instead of interacting with me?
1) I don't actively try to solve the alignments of people I don't know well/feel I have a strong read on early day1, like ever. I try to figure out the alignment of those I do, and work outwards from there. Therefore Regfan isn't a person that is the typical archetype I try to figure out early. This doesn't mean I wont have a strong opinion when Regfan starts pushing a scumread on me that from all experience and knowledge he has on me, should be NAI.
2) Again, this would be fair, if Regfan had showed ANY interest in determining my alignment, he didn't, and still hasn't. The 'rebuttal' was a jab and an invitation for him to show he was thinking about my alignment by actually backing his accusation up and ripping my reasons for asking specific questions apart. The invitation has been stated repeatedly throughout the thread, and he has yet to do anything but stick to his guns instead of trying to determine my alignment.
3) Was mainly a response to to the first part of Regfan's statement.
Do you think that Regfan has done anything in particular to figure out my alignment? Do you think he's ever investigated any of the reasons he consider me scum, outside the Tom thing, which he then later follows up on by saying "the amount of focus I put on Tom for that reason was out of proportion" when I basically hadn't brought it up on my own but instead was asked about from Regfan constantly?
Is Regfan to your knowledge typically a person that sticks with his initial scumread, and never try to 'solve' it outside of lynching it?
Can you talk to me about these two. Is the order important? Because I don't really get why from your perspective Delphine should be lower than Iso? Is passivity so damning for you?
I kiiiiiinda? Like the "please let me read up a readslist" part alongside the 'should I claim' parts. Feels somewhat earnest to me.
What do people think of his readslist? If scum!X=Y, does he read all his partners as low-tier people?
Tom and Newcomb I mentally noted somewhere being unlikely partners with X=Y, personally I read Vaimes and Grapes town, now add myself.
That leaves Nacho and all the neutrals and down, so is Nacho slipped in there as buddy, am I wrong on some of the above, or is X=Y's standard reaction to scumread his buddies/planned before chat died?
You asked me two questions about Iso, but I think I need to backburner that for my own sanity. Suffice to say that if xequalsy flips town that is where I will be tomorrow, and if he is scum... idk.
Well, that's what I was gonna say... I actually kind of like xequalsy's readslist. I mean, I disagree with a bit of it, notably Regfan/Delphine, but that's ok. I like where it seems to be coming from though. It really comes off like a townie that thinks he's going to be lynched trying to leave a legacy, not scum trying to save himself or obfuscate. And they aren't bad reads, even the ones I disagree with. Though his proposed team of Iso/Delphine/Nacho with Nacho as his second highest townread is a bit... horrific.
I kind of like Pozzai's little flurry too. His interaction with Regfan reminds me of myself and fonti in that game that never happened. Mrgle.
Ninjaed mindmeld. Well played, Pozzai.
That was kind of my conclussion as well, I mean, it could be different because there's not a timer on the day and as such he's not condemned, but still?
If he were to be lynched and flips scum, I feel like his Nacho read, and that on you are the 'weakest' in his towncircle compared to location/strength of them.
If he's scum, what would your guess on team be right now? X=Y/ISO/Nacho ?
If he flipped scum it doesn't clear Iso, but it definitely pushes back any discussion on Iso for a day or two. Which, to be fair, may have been the point. Without having reread super recently, I'd want to look at Typhon, Ophidia, and perhaps Nacho as well.
@Pozzai - Again, can't restate it enough; I don't think Video Mafia translates to Forum Mafia at all, I've met up with some people from MS IRL and played mafia with them, never used anything they've done IRL to attempt to get a read on them in a game; most I've ever used is casual chat we've had IRL specifically about FM in FM and that's only as an offhanded comment. I'm not scum reading your 'personality', I'm scum reading the fact that nothing you've focused on seems remotely relevant to determining alignment, you've not commented on any of the major topics in the game whatsoever and you're using your vote on me to focus overly on me rather than comment on them; I explicitly asked you your thoughts on game-actions several times with no response but you're continuously stating "He's not trying to sort me" which isn't the case at all.
@Nacho, below are my elaborated reads on Grapes/Newcomb, apologies fort he lack of actual links, impossible to do using phone/work combo.
Grapes
I still like his entrance posts particularly the read and attitude about Tom inside them and find his reaction towards being town read in #82 to one of the stronger town tells in the thread. I also liked his interaction/response to me in #194 and #201. Didn't like several parts of his reads list in #373 ie. His comment about himself, his stance on Iso albeit his explanation behind that one made some sense and his stance on Newcomb. I also didn't like his stance and reasoning behind reading Ophi town inside #405 and or his interaction with me about it in #410 and #413. I really liked his thoughts about Iso inside #501 as well as his conversation with Tom about him after that. So pretty much overall there's plenty of things that point towards him being town but his reads list and way he's handling Ophi weaken the read slightly.
Newcomb
I liked his initial explanation behind his read on Vaimes and the way he was handling him in the early game as well as when he touched on it again in #277. I also found the way he questioned Ophidia inside #150 to come across as genuinely trying to solve his alignment. Lots of his thoughts and reads inside his #314 mirrored mine and came across town. I found the frustration shown from him in his exchanges with Iso to be a solid town tell and liked that he was also prodding you to get to catching up and like that he's equally frustrated as me with how the game seems to be stagnating. I think my best way of reading him is looking for an absence of his town-play and so far haven't had many concerns or issues with his play or posting at all. I mean I don't want to be wrong here since he'll never let me live it down especially after DLGN last game but I actually think he's very likely town here.
VOTECOUNT
Iso - 2 (xequalsy, tomsloger)
Pozzai - 2 (Vaimes, Regfan)
Regfan - 2 (Nachomamma8, Pozzai)
Vaimes - 1 (Ophidia)
xequalsy - 4 (Typhrous, Iso, DelphiBlue, Newcomb)
Not Voting - 1 (Grapefruit21)
In another MOMENT, the BUTTERFLIES take on a new SHAPE: A man with a HELMET on HORSEBA-
You turn away from the BUTTERFLIES.
BRAVO wheat
I agree with tom and pozzai that he sounded townie there but the early read is too strong to shake that easily. I'm happy moving him to L-2.
And thanks pozzai, I'm going to reread Reg's interaction with you. I take it you disagree with his claim that video mafia doesn't translate to forum mafia?
Fair warning.
@Vaimes, please don't hammer until I'm at least home and can give some final updated thoughts. And I was so close to overtaking you on post count, God damn.
I don't know if that's because I'm a filthy spammer or you're all too nervous to join me on the dance floor.
@Nacho - Don't need you to comment on every post at all (I know you're being hyperbolic) but would very happily settle with you power reading the thread and stating your overall thoughts/reads on players and more recent events, would really like your thoughts with what you agree/disagree with on my Grapes/Newcomb since you asked for them as well as your thoughts on X=Y's recent posts.
Delphi, at the time of the post I have no idea about tom's playstyle. I have now played with tom for an extended period of time, and judging by his more recent posts and his town games I have just read, I guess he is the kind of person who talks like that as town.
Pretty much this for me too, just replace rehearsal with work, won't get home until after 10 from the looks of it. Might try and get on again before I head to work tomorrow morning, hope to have heard from Typhon an more recent stuff from Nacho by then.