There's a vast difference between "this person has a high wordcount per post ratio" and "this read at this time by this person is too detailed to make sense or be convincing."
I want to share with you post 177 from town!Regfan in a westeros game:
I'm back!
I'm really not getting the Dale votes at all, Andreas of the lot on him looks the worst in #88 followed by Sashas in #147 -- Sashas is weakened by the fact that sheeping is less alignment indicative for a newer player. People are going to have to explain to me what I'm missing re; Dale since I've liked the majority of his posts and if anything lean town on him based on how he responded to Darryls crack pot theory.
Wasn't a fan of Carls reaction towards my vote in #81 mostly because the "Don't you dare ask where is carl becasue I'll be back before deadline" looked like a pre-emptive attempt to defend himself which has some scum motivation behind it. That said I do like his explanation behind his Darryl scum read (Even though I don't really agree with his conclusion) in both #157 and #168, leaning slighly more towards him being town at the moment, not comfortable with my vote being on him anymore.
I'm conflicted on Darryl (Conflicted is probably the wrong word actually, gun to head I'd call him town just wouldn't be confident or comfortable making that call), I initially found his whole "People should not state they don't want to be in the watch since it's bad play" in #59 as townish since it's what my thoughts on the matter were exactly. I also normally read crack-pot type theories as a town-tell (I've seen them very very frequently come from scum and rarely from scum since it's hard to sell as genuinely believing in it) so #96 of his read very town, similarly while I disagree entirely with the idea of making the watch player a 'random' choice between two I think the suggestion of it in #113 reads as if he thinks it's legitimately the best play. My big issue is that his experience level and competency level seems to change quite drastically from post to post and I have difficulty buying someone that's experienced in mafia having the specific crack pot theory he's suggesting.
I've locked in a guess at who Tyreese is already and I'm leaning town on them - able to follow their thought process and agree with most of their reads.
I do like Beths point in #138 and I think her defending Darryl there is a fairly decent town tell given that since the watch seems to be between the two of them she'd have some scum motivation to throw him to the wolves and take more votes herself.
I really really dislike Carols vote and reasoning in #172, while I do have an issue with Morgan attacking Tyreese for "not finding much alignment indicative" I very much do not think him referring to his own town game is a scum-tell or him pointing towards him being town here -- it's a very common phrasing or statement that's made so her throwing a vote down on him for this and not commenting on anything else in the game looks really bad.
Unwatch, Vote for Watch: Beth
Pretty much at a position where I have a bunch of people I lean town on, not too many I'm super confident on though and few people I'm leaning scum on (I'd vote really any of Andrea, Sasha or Carol at the moment).
Carl; What's your reads on Non-Darryl players at the moment?
Sasha; I do second Tyreeses question; Why are you voting Dale to lynch and Darryl for watch? Some reasoning would be nice. Also would like to know if you have any other thoughts on another else in the game, is there people you lean towards being town or scum? If so who and why?
Morgan; Can you explain how Tyreeeses comment differs from mine in #79 since you having her as scum and me as town when we both made the same comment doesn't add up for me.
Unvote, Vote: Carol
Likely going to do another comb over the thread to see if I've missed anything then post my updated reads in one post.
Edited to fix a broken link - I hope that's allowed. Also sorry didn't realize it was this long.
It's after 176 posts, 20 of them by the mod, over just a few hours, with more players, in an alias game, with quite a lot of flavor stuff for their brand new Walking Dead alts.
I would say it's germane.
I agree that the meta read in #61 is too confident considering his answer to my question in #93, but the wordiness is a null tell.
There's a vast difference between "this person has a high wordcount per post ratio" and "this read at this time by this person is too detailed to make sense or be convincing."
You're still not there yet.
Tom's point that his read on me is simply too strong is today's lucky winner; don't really think that I've moved out of my scumrange yet and I'd expect more caution than a strong town read out of the gate.
I thought I was very clearly implying that the read was too strong, and that the wordiness was a result of him making ***** up. Not that typing too many words is a tell.
Re tom being opportunistic: just because a read is well progressed doesn't mean it isn't opportunistic. Giving a town read doesn't advance the game state, and it's main purpose would be to try and earn town cred and it's more important to be town read as scum than town.
I also just really don't like the way that knowing I've played four games was enough for him, without knowing anything about those games. Meta disclosure I've not rolled scum yet, but the first thing I would do is be paranoid and lean on meta. Gives me an out to avoid actually reading the game. I get that people are town reading me for that, so I won't argue it's a town tell, I just don't like how quickly tom ran with that read. I had a grand total of 4 posts when tom dropped that read.
What you're missing is the very purpose of this playstyle I've stolen the way I play is to find town.
A town circle is a very powerful thing, and you are in it now.
Nacho asked me what kind of answer I was expecting. And the answer to that is an explanation that doesn't have to be dragged out of you, to see what you're willing answer on your own, without me having to hold your hand. I'm very curious as to what finally inspired you to type like a grownup and not clown around. Frankly, it's weirding me out, and it makes me wonder why Nacho is completely ignoring it.
And I'm also curious as to why you expect me to answer your questions when you don't even acknowlesge mine. I don't ask them for kicks.
You asking me things about Nacho that kind of imply you /think/ I should be suspicious of him when I'm already voting for him also kind of pinged negatively. Can't really explain it, and it probably doesn't mean anything right now.
I want Ophidia's reasons for highlighting me in particular out of a category containing three other people (those he's familiar with). Because if he's going to vote for a familiar face, why mine specifically? What separates me from tom and Iso in his mind? Is what I'm looking for.
I'm also kind of already disappointed in this game. I was expecting a more fun RVS, but all the cool people have yet to show up.
Anything else you want me to do for you that you aren't willing to do in return?
Hey, hey, Fluaimes, why you so agro early, it's not a good look for you !
I thought I was very clearly implying that the read was too strong, and that the wordiness was a result of him making ***** up. Not that typing too many words is a tell.
Oh.
I'll just be over here in the shame corner if you need me!
but most certainly don't agree with the Tom vote, I actually follow his thought process and agree with it re; his grapefruit read and that's a real rarity.
Why's that a towntell?
Hey, hey, hey, Delphine, why do you steal my questions, and why did you ask that question and what did you hope to get from it?
Re tom being opportunistic: just because a read is well progressed doesn't mean it isn't opportunistic. Giving a town read doesn't advance the game state, and it's main purpose would be to try and earn town cred and it's more important to be town read as scum than town.
I also just really don't like the way that knowing I've played four games was enough for him, without knowing anything about those games. Meta disclosure I've not rolled scum yet, but the first thing I would do is be paranoid and lean on meta. Gives me an out to avoid actually reading the game. I get that people are town reading me for that, so I won't argue it's a town tell, I just don't like how quickly tom ran with that read. I had a grand total of 4 posts when tom dropped that read.
What you're missing is the very purpose of this playstyle I've stolen the way I play is to find town.
A town circle is a very powerful thing, and you are in it now.
Why 'steal' another person's playstyle, why aren't you 'playing yourself' ?
Re tom being opportunistic: just because a read is well progressed doesn't mean it isn't opportunistic. Giving a town read doesn't advance the game state, and it's main purpose would be to try and earn town cred and it's more important to be town read as scum than town.
I also just really don't like the way that knowing I've played four games was enough for him, without knowing anything about those games. Meta disclosure I've not rolled scum yet, but the first thing I would do is be paranoid and lean on meta. Gives me an out to avoid actually reading the game. I get that people are town reading me for that, so I won't argue it's a town tell, I just don't like how quickly tom ran with that read. I had a grand total of 4 posts when tom dropped that read.
What you're missing is the very purpose of this playstyle I've stolen the way I play is to find town.
A town circle is a very powerful thing, and you are in it now.
Why 'steal' another person's playstyle, why aren't you 'playing yourself' ?
Re tom being opportunistic: just because a read is well progressed doesn't mean it isn't opportunistic. Giving a town read doesn't advance the game state, and it's main purpose would be to try and earn town cred and it's more important to be town read as scum than town.
I also just really don't like the way that knowing I've played four games was enough for him, without knowing anything about those games. Meta disclosure I've not rolled scum yet, but the first thing I would do is be paranoid and lean on meta. Gives me an out to avoid actually reading the game. I get that people are town reading me for that, so I won't argue it's a town tell, I just don't like how quickly tom ran with that read. I had a grand total of 4 posts when tom dropped that read.
What you're missing is the very purpose of this playstyle I've stolen the way I play is to find town.
A town circle is a very powerful thing, and you are in it now.
Why 'steal' another person's playstyle, why aren't you 'playing yourself' ?
Fun.
We are playing a game, you know.
We are, but by suggesting that it's his adapted persona that likes to create towncircles he indicates that it's not his own, therefore a weaker part or at the very least a less well polished part of his playstyle.
It seems more of a "this gives me an excuse to call people town which I wouldn't normally have" way of adressing the game.
Re tom being opportunistic: just because a read is well progressed doesn't mean it isn't opportunistic. Giving a town read doesn't advance the game state, and it's main purpose would be to try and earn town cred and it's more important to be town read as scum than town.
I also just really don't like the way that knowing I've played four games was enough for him, without knowing anything about those games. Meta disclosure I've not rolled scum yet, but the first thing I would do is be paranoid and lean on meta. Gives me an out to avoid actually reading the game. I get that people are town reading me for that, so I won't argue it's a town tell, I just don't like how quickly tom ran with that read. I had a grand total of 4 posts when tom dropped that read.
What you're missing is the very purpose of this playstyle I've stolen the way I play is to find town.
A town circle is a very powerful thing, and you are in it now.
Why 'steal' another person's playstyle, why aren't you 'playing yourself' ?
Think Nachos early pressure push on me starting in #5 comes across as town, looks like him attempting to get a read on me in a similar manner he's done Pie in the past - pretty sure it was in the Wedding Invitational albeit that didn't end all that well from memory. Think he'd be less likely to be as brazen re; pocketing attempts as scum like he was in #18 and liked his response to Vaimes about Tom in #52. Actually feel pretty good about him being town here.
[spoilerI tried putting myself in the shoes of the vastly entertaining and dashingly handsome Regfan, reading Nacho's "pressure push" on him, and coming away with any kind of townlean out of it (both on Regfan and Nacho). And I didn't! This read seems way too wordy for a townie to have, at this point in the game, and most of these players should be held to a much higher standard of towniness than anything Nacho has done so far.[/spoiler]
Agree, disagree? Don't overthink it, just whatever feelings jump out at you.
(I think he meant post #8, since xequalsy wrote post #5.)
So I do not get a town read from it, not because of wordiness but because of weak points. I think any read based on the first 8 posts of this game is fabricated as there is just nothing there. I can see a soft lean based on 52, but I don't like Regfan reading Nacho based on 8 and 18. Feels fake, but not scummy. I see that later in the thread Nacho and Tom answer this same question and do find it scummy. I see what you are getting at, but 52 is enough that I could see Reg conf biasing the others to fit his narrative as town. I don't feel super strongly about it right now.
Re tom being opportunistic: just because a read is well progressed doesn't mean it isn't opportunistic. Giving a town read doesn't advance the game state, and it's main purpose would be to try and earn town cred and it's more important to be town read as scum than town.
I also just really don't like the way that knowing I've played four games was enough for him, without knowing anything about those games. Meta disclosure I've not rolled scum yet, but the first thing I would do is be paranoid and lean on meta. Gives me an out to avoid actually reading the game. I get that people are town reading me for that, so I won't argue it's a town tell, I just don't like how quickly tom ran with that read. I had a grand total of 4 posts when tom dropped that read.
What you're missing is the very purpose of this playstyle I've stolen the way I play is to find town.
A town circle is a very powerful thing, and you are in it now.
It loses it's power when the people in the town circle aren't trusted because of outside factors like say inexperience for example. And I'm wary of any playstyle based around finding town.
Can you explain to me how you would differ between a fake-notscummy read and a fake-scummy read?
What are the qualities you're looking for?
I slightly misspoke my last post, I more meant that read felt fake, but everything else felt okay and made me not find 1 fake read scummy.
It's not a quality to the read about 8 and 18 so much as it was as liking the rest of his tone. I don't agree that there is anything to Ophi's entrance, but I like his line of questioning there and I also like his post 93 apart from the weak answer on his liking tom. Apparently I'm blindingly obv!town so a mindmeld over that probably isn't the best indicator of town.
Can you explain to me how you would differ between a fake-notscummy read and a fake-scummy read?
What are the qualities you're looking for?
I slightly misspoke my last post, I more meant that read felt fake, but everything else felt okay and made me not find 1 fake read scummy.
It's not a quality to the read about 8 and 18 so much as it was as liking the rest of his tone. I don't agree that there is anything to Ophi's entrance, but I like his line of questioning there and I also like his post 93 apart from the weak answer on his liking tom. Apparently I'm blindingly obv!town so a mindmeld over that probably isn't the best indicator of town.
Okay, so like the read gave a minus, but he has a few +s elsewhere so the thread net gain is 'not scummy'?
Gothca.
Who in this game did you have experience playing with?
Oh lord the Pozzai spam posting has started already.
At work so I'll try and make this short.
@Von RE #94 & #112 - You've not actually played an early game with me before. In TH7 I replaced in fairly late D1 when there was already ~50 pages or something of the sort. If you want an idea of what my early game is like the link that Tom quoted is a fairly accurate representation (No idea how he was able to find that though given finding meta on Westeroes is near impossible), alternatively you could take a look at my first few posts inside the Obs thread in SVM where I lollocked DLGN as town from his first few posts (I still plan on seeking my revenge, I'm up for ideas on how to best enact it). I like to elaborate on all my reads inside my first post even if some of them are based on weaker reasoning since it A) Pushes the game away from fluff posting into serious and more alignment indicative discussion, B) Allows others to understand where my headspace is and get a better read on me and C) Means that I can get better reads from people based on if they agree/disagree with the reads and their reasoning behind why.
That said Nacho was and is still one of my stronger reads (Grape probably being the strongest at the moment), I think his early push on me makes a little more sense coming from town than scum in that it makes sense as a way to try and 'sort' me and matches with what I've seen him do with others as town, alone it's not the biggest town tell but given that I liked his interactions with Typhon and his comment on Toms change of playstyle not being a scum tell I feel fairly happy with the read for this point of the game. Lets flip this though; your vote remains on Nacho, explain what I'm missing for me please?
Your standards for what constitutes a "push" is too low for me to believe it.
Realise you're probably not aware of the meta I'm referring to but there was a game that came to memory when reading Nachos initial posts where he hard pushed someone before they posted on the day phase with the "Lynch them before they post" angle involved, scum did blitz them and lynch them before they posted but he elaborated his intentions post game that he was doing it as a means to pressure the player to work out their alignment, I see some similarities between that and this that makes it more likely he's town even if it's 'weak'.
It's more likely to come from town because he did it once as town, so you're fine essentially clearing him off of his first post on page one in RVS for an action that takes absolutely zero effort to fake?
There's no way you aren't aware of how ridiculous and empty that looks.
I feel that meta analysis is unreliable in many ways, as scum can react to one's meta reads and shift accordingly to match the expectations of the town.
Also I have little idea of the meta and just played 2 normal mafia games, so it is pretty hard to analyze any post without people pointing things out to me. So please, if you have any questions, just ask me so that I can stop being lazy and provide content. This helps me learn to analyze as well.
Well of course; it's not like we'd be able to get him mislynched immediately as entertaining as it would be. Rome wasn't built in a day and this Regfan mislynch isn't going to come from nothing. It's going to take hard work and a lot of dedication and unfortunately much more reading and listening than I would like.
I like Nacho's early tone but I think I just like it, I don't really see it as alignment indicative. Jumping ahead a bit to posts I skimmed before I started this post, I'm definitely on the Vaimes side of this one, Reg. I don't really see how you could really think Nacho's early thing towards you was a push? Like. I can't really fathom a world where any actual pressure would come from that. I read it 100% as a joke, which is pretty null in my book.
Fair enough, I was just curious. I'll give your DLP stuff a skim sometime in this day.
Either way, cool to actually be playing with you instead of near missing for once.
I would appreciate it if you stopped trying to pocket xequal; that was my initial strategy for the game, and it really doesn't make me happy to see others moving in on my turf.
Loool. What can I say? My pockets are just so empty, I need to put someone in there. It's like some weird mafia inverse of how I handle money.
Muscling into your territory was just unfortunate collateral damage.
I like this from Typhon. Good tone, reads organic, natural. I thiiiiink he's less capable of faking it than Nacho, so this is slightly +town.
I thought the best way to answer your questions was to keep making it apparent what I am doing.
Have you figured it out yet?
If not, I'm sure you will soon.
Let's talk about Nacho though.
Where did I imply you should be suspicious?
I think he's probably town.
Yeah, I'm not really in the mood for games within a game. Try again later.
It looked like you were highlighting a discrepancy in Nacho's posting, which I took to mean you found it scummy.
I think Vaimes/tom are pretty likely to not be w/w based on this and other posts in that exchange. I really don't see Vaimes in particular having that extended and ALSO "grounded" (maybe there's a better word there) exchange with a scumbuddy, especially right out of the gate. I feel like Vaimes would kind of mentally need to work up to that, or the immediate distancing would just have read more awkward.
Vaimes/Nacho also prooooobably not w/w for similar things a few posts later, but that one's not nearly as strong.
@Mod - Could we please get a specific deadline / phase length update in the OP or is this actually unlimited phase lengths?
Been looking forward to getting to this all day, know most players here from either MafiaScum, DailyMafia or DLP.
Think Nachos early pressure push on me starting in #5 comes across as town, looks like him attempting to get a read on me in a similar manner he's done Pie in the past - pretty sure it was in the Wedding Invitational albeit that didn't end all that well from memory. Think he'd be less likely to be as brazen re; pocketing attempts as scum like he was in #18 and liked his response to Vaimes about Tom in #52. Actually feel pretty good about him being town here.
Hrm. Do you think Nacho thinks he has enough of a soulread on your scumgame that he'd be able to get a scumread off you doing... what exactly, to his "pressure"? Like - In Nacho's head, he's gonna egg people on to mislynch/RVS you, and you're going to... what? I'm just not quite seeing how you read Nacho's first bunch of posts and you think, "ah, this is classic Nacho, trying to get a read on me." Like... he hasn't really poked you beyond that, he hasn't /offered/ a read on you really, at least that I can remember. I mean if you're going to argue that Nacho was doing anything non-joke related in those posts it was maybe trying to get a read on /other people/, like how they reacted to him wanting to mislynch you.
I used that entrance because I don't know y'all and I have little idea about the in-jokes that you have. I am relatively new to this game and I am trying to mimic other players to get a hang of the game. It is hard for me to come up with a funny/not-forced entrance this game, as I don't understand where most of the RVS votes come from.
The first post is there because I just woke up today and found out that the game has already started and that everybody confirmed except for me. So I kinda did a filler post to show that I am here. I just woke up so I don't have a PC with me and I can't bold words on mobile.
Yeah, hopefully this is a good enough explanation for you, Reg.
Also English is not my first language. Should have said it much earlier in other games too.
Hrmgle. Something is pinging me about the bolded. I thiiiiink in a town way? But I'm actually not sure. It feels maybe kind of too self-aware to come from a wolf here? Like it's the kind of thing a wolf would type and then go "woah, should probably not say that" and then erase. Meh.
Why are you looking for gotchas and making postcount reads on page 2?
Not so much looking for gotchas as taking an opportunity to poke Vaimes a bit over how easy he is to read as mafia. Partially for fun, and partially because if he /is/ mafia, I want him to be paranoid that I'm focusing on him, like, reminding him that I've read a ton of his mafia games and know a lot of specific information about them. So thanks for ruining that, jerk.
The postcount thing is legit. Vaimes wasn't just top poster, he was lapping the #2 person. I don't care what page it's on, that's a pretty strong Vaimes-specific town marker. Also, trend lines are a thing.
EBWODP I'm at work and took forever to type that post, Tom's 56 is much more straight forward and since Tom is one of the few players I know of (Barebones is a good read) that scares me.
Grapefruit is town.
This nuance in a null/paranoia read is not something even very experienced players would think to fake as scum.
Nacho is probably town as well, but with some rather specific reservations.
Can you point to what exactly in those two posts you're calling "nuance"?
Because I can't really see how what he's trying to say could be more straightforward. Like, the first post is saying "tom frequently gimmicks, and he's gimmicking here. The end." The second is saying, "Tom is posting clear thoughts, therefore I'm paranoid of him."
Maybe you could expand / clarify your point a bit? Because I'm not sure I even agree with the premise. Like. Dressed up versions of "X could be town, but could also be mafia" are like, the bread and butter of scumplay of all experience levels.
I'll be able to get to this properly in a few hours when I get to a laptop but most certainly don't agree with the Tom vote, I actually follow his thought process and agree with it re; his grapefruit read and that's a real rarity.
How strong do you think the two town reads you commented on you are? What are your thought on Vaimes?
I'm not seeing why Tom is necessarily being opportunistic in his approach, he reasoned out his thought process - it's another thing entirely if you disagree with how he reached it more than it being based on just the one post.
This kinda reads to me like xeqaulsy knows both Grapefruit and tom are town and is kind of being like, playing the Reasonable Towny card to kind of politely push Grapefruit's incorrect read and Do Things.
Also, I feel like at this point between Vaimes, tom, Nacho, Regfan, and this post, that Grapefruit is pretty clearly spewed town.
I'm wary of any playstyle based around finding town.
I strongly disagree, philosophically, with this. Strong townreads, especially in a smaller game like this one, are incredibly powerful. A correct block of even just 4 or 5 people in a 12 person game can straight up win for town even just lynching randomly within the remainder, especially if you get lucky with PR claims / unaligned pairs. The ability to force scum into a box from which they can only salvage a few mislynches is just way too powerful to ignore. Closing off mislynches to scum is probably the most important thing you can do, as town. And that includes making /yourself/ unlynchable.
PoE is basically the foundation of my play, and the play of most of the players I respect. I strongly believe that most people get too hung up on "catching" scum. Oftentimes scum are not caught by anything they do, they're caught by what they /don't/ do. Games are won way, way more often by scum just not being able to be towny enough, rather than scum doing a thing and town getting an "A-HA" moment. Townplay that focuses on cases and "catching scum" is way more susceptible to false positives, to tunneling, and to narrowing the focus of the gamestate and missing broad-strokes gameflow things.
I should probably stop before this turns into more of a theory rant, but. If you have a wariness of people trying to find town, in this playerlist, you're going to have a bad time, probably.
Your standards for what constitutes a "push" is too low for me to believe it.
Realise you're probably not aware of the meta I'm referring to but there was a game that came to memory when reading Nachos initial posts where he hard pushed someone before they posted on the day phase with the "Lynch them before they post" angle involved, scum did blitz them and lynch them before they posted but he elaborated his intentions post game that he was doing it as a means to pressure the player to work out their alignment, I see some similarities between that and this that makes it more likely he's town even if it's 'weak'.
Hrm. That makes more sense.
Idk, I mean, it's MTGS. Look at the context. In my wildest dreams, I can't imagine this playerlist seriously even coming close, ever, to lynching someone before they posted. It's just... not a thing. And even if this is a thing Nacho has done before, why do you think it was aimed at sorting /you/ rather than sorting people who were reacting to him? I'm still having trouble putting myself in your shoes and really thinking you thought he thought it was actual pressure, if that makes sense.
____
@Ophidia
Two things.
1. Pretend we got mod confirmation that there was one and only one wolf between tom, Nacho, and Regfan. You have a daykill and you have to use it. Who do you shoot, and why?
Can you read them, find one sentence that you consider to be the most alignment indicative (that is, the sentence that you think best shows Grapefruit's alignment) and explain why you think that sentence is more likely to come from one alignment over the other?
Can already tell we are likely to clash all game especially considering you're not even reading what I'm saying properly. I don't think Nachos post pushing mr means he's clear nor do I even think it hugely increases the odds that hea town, I do think it makes him slightly more likely to be town when combined with the other posts of his I liked and think mentioning these reads in my first post helps push the game in the right direction.
I want to share with you post 177 from town!Regfan in a westeros game:
I'm really not getting the Dale votes at all, Andreas of the lot on him looks the worst in #88 followed by Sashas in #147 -- Sashas is weakened by the fact that sheeping is less alignment indicative for a newer player. People are going to have to explain to me what I'm missing re; Dale since I've liked the majority of his posts and if anything lean town on him based on how he responded to Darryls crack pot theory.
Wasn't a fan of Carls reaction towards my vote in #81 mostly because the "Don't you dare ask where is carl becasue I'll be back before deadline" looked like a pre-emptive attempt to defend himself which has some scum motivation behind it. That said I do like his explanation behind his Darryl scum read (Even though I don't really agree with his conclusion) in both #157 and #168, leaning slighly more towards him being town at the moment, not comfortable with my vote being on him anymore.
I'm conflicted on Darryl (Conflicted is probably the wrong word actually, gun to head I'd call him town just wouldn't be confident or comfortable making that call), I initially found his whole "People should not state they don't want to be in the watch since it's bad play" in #59 as townish since it's what my thoughts on the matter were exactly. I also normally read crack-pot type theories as a town-tell (I've seen them very very frequently come from scum and rarely from scum since it's hard to sell as genuinely believing in it) so #96 of his read very town, similarly while I disagree entirely with the idea of making the watch player a 'random' choice between two I think the suggestion of it in #113 reads as if he thinks it's legitimately the best play. My big issue is that his experience level and competency level seems to change quite drastically from post to post and I have difficulty buying someone that's experienced in mafia having the specific crack pot theory he's suggesting.
I've locked in a guess at who Tyreese is already and I'm leaning town on them - able to follow their thought process and agree with most of their reads.
I do like Beths point in #138 and I think her defending Darryl there is a fairly decent town tell given that since the watch seems to be between the two of them she'd have some scum motivation to throw him to the wolves and take more votes herself.
I really really dislike Carols vote and reasoning in #172, while I do have an issue with Morgan attacking Tyreese for "not finding much alignment indicative" I very much do not think him referring to his own town game is a scum-tell or him pointing towards him being town here -- it's a very common phrasing or statement that's made so her throwing a vote down on him for this and not commenting on anything else in the game looks really bad.
Unwatch, Vote for Watch: Beth
Pretty much at a position where I have a bunch of people I lean town on, not too many I'm super confident on though and few people I'm leaning scum on (I'd vote really any of Andrea, Sasha or Carol at the moment).
Carl; What's your reads on Non-Darryl players at the moment?
Sasha; I do second Tyreeses question; Why are you voting Dale to lynch and Darryl for watch? Some reasoning would be nice. Also would like to know if you have any other thoughts on another else in the game, is there people you lean towards being town or scum? If so who and why?
Morgan; Can you explain how Tyreeeses comment differs from mine in #79 since you having her as scum and me as town when we both made the same comment doesn't add up for me.
Unvote, Vote: Carol
Likely going to do another comb over the thread to see if I've missed anything then post my updated reads in one post.
Edited to fix a broken link - I hope that's allowed. Also sorry didn't realize it was this long.
What say you now?
I would say it's germane.
I agree that the meta read in #61 is too confident considering his answer to my question in #93, but the wordiness is a null tell.
You're still not there yet.
Tom's point that his read on me is simply too strong is today's lucky winner; don't really think that I've moved out of my scumrange yet and I'd expect more caution than a strong town read out of the gate.
I thought I was very clearly implying that the read was too strong, and that the wordiness was a result of him making ***** up. Not that typing too many words is a tell.
Were is that post? I can't seem to find it.
In the same multiquote, when he laughs at Vaimes.
@Vaimes
Imply more strongly.
Re: Nacho
I... do not know.
Which questions led you to that conclusion?
Perhaps it means something.
Hands of, she's my bæ!
Vote:Vaimes
Hey, hey, Fluaimes, why you so agro early, it's not a good look for you !
I approve of the mindset behind the Vaimes vote.
Oh.
I'll just be over here in the shame corner if you need me!
You mean the fluffy mindset? Because otherwise I have no idea what you're on about regarding my mindset.
Hey, hey, hey, Delphine, why do you steal my questions, and why did you ask that question and what did you hope to get from it?
Why 'steal' another person's playstyle, why aren't you 'playing yourself' ?
Then you'll forever live in mystery. Here's another post!
Fun.
We are playing a game, you know.
We are, but by suggesting that it's his adapted persona that likes to create towncircles he indicates that it's not his own, therefore a weaker part or at the very least a less well polished part of his playstyle.
It seems more of a "this gives me an excuse to call people town which I wouldn't normally have" way of adressing the game.
Do you consider this 'normal' Tom play ?
I tried to do it in the last DLP game, but the entire town had a fit and imploded.
Why must you let powers of evil corrupt you so?
So I do not get a town read from it, not because of wordiness but because of weak points. I think any read based on the first 8 posts of this game is fabricated as there is just nothing there. I can see a soft lean based on 52, but I don't like Regfan reading Nacho based on 8 and 18. Feels fake, but not scummy. I see that later in the thread Nacho and Tom answer this same question and do find it scummy. I see what you are getting at, but 52 is enough that I could see Reg conf biasing the others to fit his narrative as town. I don't feel super strongly about it right now.
It loses it's power when the people in the town circle aren't trusted because of outside factors like say inexperience for example. And I'm wary of any playstyle based around finding town.
Also echoing Delphine's question to @Regfan.
Also 129 feels like a town post. The rest doesn't. But 129 does.
Can you explain to me how you would differ between a fake-notscummy read and a fake-scummy read?
What are the qualities you're looking for?
I slightly misspoke my last post, I more meant that read felt fake, but everything else felt okay and made me not find 1 fake read scummy.
It's not a quality to the read about 8 and 18 so much as it was as liking the rest of his tone. I don't agree that there is anything to Ophi's entrance, but I like his line of questioning there and I also like his post 93 apart from the weak answer on his liking tom. Apparently I'm blindingly obv!town so a mindmeld over that probably isn't the best indicator of town.
Okay, so like the read gave a minus, but he has a few +s elsewhere so the thread net gain is 'not scummy'?
Gothca.
Who in this game did you have experience playing with?
@Pozzai
Are you scum with Regfan?
Why him of all people?
And excuse me for not taking claiming town into consideration
Unvote, vote Regfan
At work so I'll try and make this short.
@Von RE #94 & #112 - You've not actually played an early game with me before. In TH7 I replaced in fairly late D1 when there was already ~50 pages or something of the sort. If you want an idea of what my early game is like the link that Tom quoted is a fairly accurate representation (No idea how he was able to find that though given finding meta on Westeroes is near impossible), alternatively you could take a look at my first few posts inside the Obs thread in SVM where I lollocked DLGN as town from his first few posts (I still plan on seeking my revenge, I'm up for ideas on how to best enact it). I like to elaborate on all my reads inside my first post even if some of them are based on weaker reasoning since it A) Pushes the game away from fluff posting into serious and more alignment indicative discussion, B) Allows others to understand where my headspace is and get a better read on me and C) Means that I can get better reads from people based on if they agree/disagree with the reads and their reasoning behind why.
That said Nacho was and is still one of my stronger reads (Grape probably being the strongest at the moment), I think his early push on me makes a little more sense coming from town than scum in that it makes sense as a way to try and 'sort' me and matches with what I've seen him do with others as town, alone it's not the biggest town tell but given that I liked his interactions with Typhon and his comment on Toms change of playstyle not being a scum tell I feel fairly happy with the read for this point of the game. Lets flip this though; your vote remains on Nacho, explain what I'm missing for me please?
Pretty much to the snipped part.
To the second, no one. I've read games of Vaimes, tom, and Iso but not played with any of them.
Realise you're probably not aware of the meta I'm referring to but there was a game that came to memory when reading Nachos initial posts where he hard pushed someone before they posted on the day phase with the "Lynch them before they post" angle involved, scum did blitz them and lynch them before they posted but he elaborated his intentions post game that he was doing it as a means to pressure the player to work out their alignment, I see some similarities between that and this that makes it more likely he's town even if it's 'weak'.
There's no way you aren't aware of how ridiculous and empty that looks.
But the way you went about explaining how you came to that conclusion is, frankly, unrealistic.
Also I have little idea of the meta and just played 2 normal mafia games, so it is pretty hard to analyze any post without people pointing things out to me. So please, if you have any questions, just ask me so that I can stop being lazy and provide content. This helps me learn to analyze as well.
Reading xyxalkkqulaululayl and Typhon as likely not w/w for that early exchange. Weiyaoli, can I just call you "wei" or something?
I like Nacho's early tone but I think I just like it, I don't really see it as alignment indicative. Jumping ahead a bit to posts I skimmed before I started this post, I'm definitely on the Vaimes side of this one, Reg. I don't really see how you could really think Nacho's early thing towards you was a push? Like. I can't really fathom a world where any actual pressure would come from that. I read it 100% as a joke, which is pretty null in my book.
I like this from Typhon. Good tone, reads organic, natural. I thiiiiink he's less capable of faking it than Nacho, so this is slightly +town.
I like this, too. You did kinda peace out then, though. Actions, words, etc.
I think Vaimes/tom are pretty likely to not be w/w based on this and other posts in that exchange. I really don't see Vaimes in particular having that extended and ALSO "grounded" (maybe there's a better word there) exchange with a scumbuddy, especially right out of the gate. I feel like Vaimes would kind of mentally need to work up to that, or the immediate distancing would just have read more awkward.
Vaimes/Nacho also prooooobably not w/w for similar things a few posts later, but that one's not nearly as strong.
Vaimes is actually probably just town so /shrug
Hrm. Do you think Nacho thinks he has enough of a soulread on your scumgame that he'd be able to get a scumread off you doing... what exactly, to his "pressure"? Like - In Nacho's head, he's gonna egg people on to mislynch/RVS you, and you're going to... what? I'm just not quite seeing how you read Nacho's first bunch of posts and you think, "ah, this is classic Nacho, trying to get a read on me." Like... he hasn't really poked you beyond that, he hasn't /offered/ a read on you really, at least that I can remember. I mean if you're going to argue that Nacho was doing anything non-joke related in those posts it was maybe trying to get a read on /other people/, like how they reacted to him wanting to mislynch you.
Hrmgle. Something is pinging me about the bolded. I thiiiiink in a town way? But I'm actually not sure. It feels maybe kind of too self-aware to come from a wolf here? Like it's the kind of thing a wolf would type and then go "woah, should probably not say that" and then erase. Meh.
Not so much looking for gotchas as taking an opportunity to poke Vaimes a bit over how easy he is to read as mafia. Partially for fun, and partially because if he /is/ mafia, I want him to be paranoid that I'm focusing on him, like, reminding him that I've read a ton of his mafia games and know a lot of specific information about them. So thanks for ruining that, jerk.
The postcount thing is legit. Vaimes wasn't just top poster, he was lapping the #2 person. I don't care what page it's on, that's a pretty strong Vaimes-specific town marker. Also, trend lines are a thing.
Regfan asked me to.
Can you point to what exactly in those two posts you're calling "nuance"?
Because I can't really see how what he's trying to say could be more straightforward. Like, the first post is saying "tom frequently gimmicks, and he's gimmicking here. The end." The second is saying, "Tom is posting clear thoughts, therefore I'm paranoid of him."
Maybe you could expand / clarify your point a bit? Because I'm not sure I even agree with the premise. Like. Dressed up versions of "X could be town, but could also be mafia" are like, the bread and butter of scumplay of all experience levels.
Feel free to chime in too, then, re: the above.
This kinda reads to me like xeqaulsy knows both Grapefruit and tom are town and is kind of being like, playing the Reasonable Towny card to kind of politely push Grapefruit's incorrect read and Do Things.
Also, I feel like at this point between Vaimes, tom, Nacho, Regfan, and this post, that Grapefruit is pretty clearly spewed town.
I strongly disagree, philosophically, with this. Strong townreads, especially in a smaller game like this one, are incredibly powerful. A correct block of even just 4 or 5 people in a 12 person game can straight up win for town even just lynching randomly within the remainder, especially if you get lucky with PR claims / unaligned pairs. The ability to force scum into a box from which they can only salvage a few mislynches is just way too powerful to ignore. Closing off mislynches to scum is probably the most important thing you can do, as town. And that includes making /yourself/ unlynchable.
PoE is basically the foundation of my play, and the play of most of the players I respect. I strongly believe that most people get too hung up on "catching" scum. Oftentimes scum are not caught by anything they do, they're caught by what they /don't/ do. Games are won way, way more often by scum just not being able to be towny enough, rather than scum doing a thing and town getting an "A-HA" moment. Townplay that focuses on cases and "catching scum" is way more susceptible to false positives, to tunneling, and to narrowing the focus of the gamestate and missing broad-strokes gameflow things.
I should probably stop before this turns into more of a theory rant, but. If you have a wariness of people trying to find town, in this playerlist, you're going to have a bad time, probably.
Hrm. That makes more sense.
Idk, I mean, it's MTGS. Look at the context. In my wildest dreams, I can't imagine this playerlist seriously even coming close, ever, to lynching someone before they posted. It's just... not a thing. And even if this is a thing Nacho has done before, why do you think it was aimed at sorting /you/ rather than sorting people who were reacting to him? I'm still having trouble putting myself in your shoes and really thinking you thought he thought it was actual pressure, if that makes sense.
____
@Ophidia
Two things.
1. Pretend we got mod confirmation that there was one and only one wolf between tom, Nacho, and Regfan. You have a daykill and you have to use it. Who do you shoot, and why?
2. Here are three Grapefruit posts:
http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/forum-games/mafia/769770-jurassic-park-adventure-2-mafia-90-day-1-head-for?comment=137
http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/forum-games/mafia/769770-jurassic-park-adventure-2-mafia-90-day-1-head-for?comment=134
http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/forum-games/mafia/769770-jurassic-park-adventure-2-mafia-90-day-1-head-for?comment=82
Can you read them, find one sentence that you consider to be the most alignment indicative (that is, the sentence that you think best shows Grapefruit's alignment) and explain why you think that sentence is more likely to come from one alignment over the other?
Can already tell we are likely to clash all game especially considering you're not even reading what I'm saying properly. I don't think Nachos post pushing mr means he's clear nor do I even think it hugely increases the odds that hea town, I do think it makes him slightly more likely to be town when combined with the other posts of his I liked and think mentioning these reads in my first post helps push the game in the right direction.
Man, I sincerely hope not. What do you think about, like, any of the non-you/Nacho stuff in that thing I just posted?