@D_V, @Silver: I believe that Mindreaver and Shadow are playing the same subtle scum game here. Shadow's gotten marginally more scummy over time. Mindreaver is less obvious, but he hits those same buttons for me. Terry has been unchangingly scummy for a while now. Brinatoo and AG have played relatively scummy in the short time they've been here.
Alright, I'll engage. If I'm not misunderstanding your comparison here, Shadow is playing Silver off of D_V and trying to paint them both as bad guys? I'm doing the same thing, but with Proph and Rhand? That's how I'm reading this.
Can you explain the difference between scum!mindreaver portraying Rhand and Proph as potential bad guys and town!mindreaver trying to PoE down who the fail was? Obviously you must see something there. Share please.
First off, you are my lightest scum read. It's hard to tell between you, Rhand, and Proph who the final scum is, but I had been leaning you as of just before Q3. As of late, though, this is somewhat up in the air.
I started to feel something was off when I did the full thread check on page 10. But I wasn't certain. I was tonereading some scumminess in a lot of your posts since then, but also a lot of town vibes. But I figured that might be some degree of confirmation bias at some point, and have therefore kept you at a relatively light scumread, mostly based off of position. As of this moment, you, Proph, and Rhand are my uncertain reads. I was inclined to be more sure just before and just after Q3. My problem is that you and Rhand both have that mix of towny and scummy posts, and Proph has given me decent vibes in the time he's been here, but has been here for a very short amount of time. So that's that on the toneread side of things.
Then there's looking at other people's reads. My 4 hard scum reads have you as town, along with one hard townread and Proph. Other players who have said anything about you also have you as uncertain. That's not a good sign for me.
Let's say I decide to go with you being town. Assuming you agree with me that D_V and I are town and Shadow is scum, who would you say is more likely scum out of Proph and Rhand and why?
Let's say I decide to go with you being town. Assuming you agree with me that D_V and I are town and Shadow is scum, who would you say is more likely scum out of Proph and Rhand and why?
Well, I don't actually think you are town :). I was hoping to get your to talk a bit more about Rhand and Proph to be perfectly honest, since my comment was 99% WIFOM. But that wasn't actually a horrible answer. Ok, toneread on me. fair enough in a game when that's the only real tool. I can understand.
So to answer your question. I'm not sure how to actually resolve the situation. It was a problem before the proposal passed, because I had Rhand (you too) predicting a one vote fail, and that I'd be the culprit. You specifically went after 1 fail as the scenario, and Rhand was a bit more "oh and if there are two then...". That raised some red flags on him.
I've also been paranoid about Rhand and Cantrip. I was hoping that when I proposed Cantrip (several times btw) in the last two pages, Rhand would slip. But he hasn't jumped really. So that's a point in his favor I guess.
Finally I already spelled this out but the clear play here, for scum, is to just out-town the other two suspects. I am suspicious of Rhand at this point. I suppose you could also say the same about me. But I'm trying to read Rhand from earlier and get compare it to the last few posts, and figure out if he's tonally different now, when death is on the line.
It's coming down to the following for me:
1) I probably won't catch Proph OR Rhand if it's only one of them. I don't think we have the tools to do so, without outing Merlin in the process. But without Proph even posting yet, I'm leaning Rhand as scum right now.
2) If I can't root out the scum on that quest, do I need to? This is the biggest thing for me right now. Is it just Rhand or just Proph? If it's both, I don't think I have enough trusted bodies to fill that hole. If it's only one. Leaving Q3 intact seems like the strongest play. I'm nervous about Terry and Cantrip. Who seem to have some support all of a sudden. D_V would be my choice, but I'm just not sure and passing and where that leaves us for the final quest. Osi and Shadow are out for me. AG and Brin are largely question marks. Gun to my head, Terry might be the play right now. I was scum reading him because his D_V progression hasn't been exactly smooth. But see how D_V's behaved this game, I don't really disagree with just looking at the surface level and saying "wtf, clearly scum here".
Just a note: If you guys want me to post more, please please please ask me questions in order to keep me engaged. I recognize that we're in dire straits here but I just cannot get myself motivated for this game when most of my usual scumhunting strategies fall flat (like townhunting > scumhunting, except that we're living in a world with five scum, and vote analysis is lol).
Quote from Silvercrys »
Mindreaver's town meta is like. I guess it comes down to my experience with him more than anything else? I knew he was town in TriggerHappy when he was a mislynch scum really, really needed. I misread him in BareBones and we almost lost the game because we lynched him instead of shadow, who I thought was town. I guess I could just be so used to him being town I'm not really looking for scummyness from him, but. He's reasonably engaged, posting thoughtfully, logical, etc. None of that means a lot without a scum game to compare to, I guess. But I think he's town.
Fair enough, I see what you mean. I'm just nervous about him because whenever I read his posts I feel like he's been overtly reasonable and logical with regards to his thought process, but then I remember that that's the easy part for scum to fake, so.
I came to a townread on him early in Three Little Pigs Mafia based off of his tonally town posts in that game and while I've seen them in this game, he /was/ on the team that failed, and the only other person that can be scum on that team is Rhand IMO since I know I'm town. So I think I need to do a little more digging here.
I keep saying I want to do more digging or analysis but I just get so lazy lol or get distracted with schoolwork. Why did I replace into this game.
But at the same time this sentence feels townie for Mindreaver?? Auggh. I know I'm getting pocketed here someplace, I just can't figure it out.
Quote from Mindreaver »
@Rhand - My PoV is that your name takes the place of mine (it's either you or proph). From that perspective "you" are "me" in these lists. which one is most attractive to add to three town to you? @Proph, same question.
Probbbably the third one? (Cantrip/Proph/DV) I think Cantrip's posts have been solid and I think D_V has a lot of decent town tells despite the CC.
Bonus question: What does answering this question tell you about my alignment?
Quote from Silvercrys »
I will say I like the way Mindreaver is thinking right now. Which makes me double sure it's either Proph or Rhand and sending Rhand+Cantrip is a bad idea.
I have a feeling both of these players are town and we've been had, so. I would like to send Q3 + Osi or Terry. Either is fine with me.
I would support adding Q3 + Osi or Q3 + Cantrip barring reread (which will probably never happen because I'm lazy + drowning in schoolwork). I would not support Q3 + Terry though.
Quote from D_V »
@Rhand and Proph who would you guys say is the scum in your party that just failed.
Either Mindreaver or Rhand. Both have been coming across as fairly townie to me though, so ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
@Cantrip, @Silver: What are your thoughts on Mindreaver vs. Rhand as scum?
By the way, I am approaching this game without paying much, if any, attention to people's previous games. I think the only way that it is relevant is the number of times that someone has played, and that's not even particularly relevant except for giving an unreliable sign on how much one might be able to read into someone's posts. Besides, if people are actually primarily reliant on that, then any reads on me are basically meaningless.
@D_V: I think Proph is town, but I'm cool with testing your grouping without Rhand instead of one without Mindreaver.
Rhand's 879 is spectacular. If he's scum, he's really, really, really good.
I don't like Shadow's 892. It feels a little like fearmongering ("we have to make TWO good quests, guise!"). In reality, it's win or lose with this proposal. If two or more scum go, they win. If not, we just send the quest twice (assuming that the scumteam isn't all lumped together as the five players following the passing quest).
...as Mindreaver pointed out in 893.
Trying to figure out if 953 is Mindreaver being crafty like a town!Fox or sneaky like a scum!Snake.
@Mindreaver: Are you only suspicious of Rhand because his play seems town? If not, what concerns you?
@Proph: Say you could kill one player and their alignment would be revealed to just you, who would you choose, and what do you think their alignment would tell you?
@Osie: Between Rhand and Mindreaver, Rhand's townier because while Mind has been making logical posts, Rhand has been more active in trying to figure out the game, at least during this phase and last phase. I also get a strong town read on Rhand overall, while several of Mindreaver's posts have given me pause (953 being a good example). I feel like my struggle is more between Mind and Proph.
On to solving.
I'm thinking that one fail = one scum on the quest. If that's the case, I'm cautiously for sending the same group + one of me or AG. If we remove one of Rhand, Mindreaver, or Proph from the list, I'd suggest both me and AG. I have concerns about most the other options. Osie's been posting really well. The difference between his Q1 and Q3 play is like night and day. As much as I want to trust it, I don't think I can. Terry also has calmed down a little, but I can't shake the feeling that he's too focused on discrediting DV to be town. He also feels really anxious toDay. Brin hasn't provided content; I don't really want to gamble the game on 14 posts. AG, on the other hand, sounds sincere. He's not posting quite as much as I'd like, but he's asking questions and of all the players that I have lighter reads on, I feel like he's trying to solve the game.
From Rhand's 879:
Quote from Rhand »
I would say:
Osi
Brinatoo
Shadow
AG
Mind
Terry
Proph
Cantrip
(DV)
Rhand
Silver
Vaimes
I'm fine with this, and agree that we should follow this order for the first four "yes" votes, then flip it to ensure no speed-hammers. If I had my druthers, I'd probably move AG down a little, and swap myself and Rhand, but this should still be fine.
@Rhand - My PoV is that your name takes the place of mine (it's either you or proph). From that perspective "you" are "me" in these lists. which one is most attractive to add to three town to you? @Proph, same question.
Probbbably the third one? (Cantrip/Proph/DV) I think Cantrip's posts have been solid and I think D_V has a lot of decent town tells despite the CC.
Bonus question: What does answering this question tell you about my alignment?
Almost nothing. The question is 50/50, which is the same as just adding one person. If you and Rhand both just wanted to add one person, I might be more concerned about you both being scum together. But you're advocating removing Rhand and I, and adding two others. So if you're scum, Cantrip or D_V is a partner, and Rhand is town. That's where this is leading me. Although that MIGHT just be what you want me to think
I'd like to point out the mindset here. Osie is okay with "testing" this group. We are past the stages of testing a group. The scum in this game have far more quest groupings that will produce a win for them, so this excessive openness to testing a grouping should raise some red flags to people. I get that several people believe I'm scum, but I emplore you to at least consider what I have to say.
I would vig the heck out of Mindreaver and evaluate the gamestate based on there, because I think there is scum between Mindreaver and Rhand in Q3.
I'd be very surprised if Silver is scum.
This might be conf bias, but this is the exact response I'd expect from town. I'd even be okay with being the vig, because I think it does indeed solve the whole game.
@Mindreaver: Are you only suspicious of Rhand because his play seems town? If not, what concerns you?
I feel like that was a loaded question. "because his play seems town". Just the phrasing there... yuck.
So why I'm leaning Rhand for the fail is that I was very leery of his seemingly inexplicable read on you, early on.
Next he proposes a group with you on it. Which gets voted down.
We then get to your proposal, and who do you nominate? Your buddy Rhand.
Now, the play for the scum in Mind/Rhand/Proph; isn't to necessarily cast suspicion on the other two. You just have to not be the least towny. Now, if that was the goal, it would explain why proph was in this lineup to begin with. My tinfoil theory, is that you put Rhand in there, with a somewhat unknown proph, and a townread mindreaver. Worst case? We figure out it's Rhand and you. Best case? You both figure out how to make me the scum. Plan B? You can't get the Mindreaver is scum narrative, and you fall back to the "maybe it is proph...". You've managed to discredit me, and probably just due to most people not having a great read on proph, the thread probably doesn't catch on. Maybe we see a proposal for "lets just take those three out, and put in Cantrip/XXXX/YYYYY".
Your first post following the fail backs that up. "I thought for SURE that would pass. Frown I'm thinking Proph or Mindreaver for the fail." Why? Your read on Rhand was so ironclad that he's not even a suspect? Rhand's first post: "I think mindreaver was the scum there. But it can be Proph." Both of you are testing the waters.
Now, I don't know about how much I'm buying your involvement Cantrip. It's far-fetched, and I know that. I just can't shake your interactions with Rhand.
Then we have Rhand's posting BEFORE the quest failed. That if there was 1 failure, it'd be me. Maybe it's OMGUS (it is a little bit), but I think that was just laying the groundwork for his arguments now. Although he hasn't come right out and said "it was mind". He's hedging a bit now. "Mind > Proph" without anything else. He seemed more sure before the fail, and now is trying to sound more diplomatic. He also hasn't mentioned your name once as a possible 6th (he's proposed 4 groups, 2 include you; but he's never suggested you'd be a good 6th). Which pings me a little funny, because you are clearly his choice. He didn't even react when I suggested it. I expected *something* since I've been vocal about Rhand/Cantrip for a while now.
BUT, at the end of the day. This might be a distraction. I'm convinced that Proph and Rhand aren't scum together. I just don't think so. And if that's the case, none of this tinfoiling really matters. We're going to have to take a gut-read YOLO shot, and I don't have the chutzpah to actually just pluck Rhand, stick in two new people, and lose. Because my pool of people is D_V/Cantrip/AG/Terry, and mathematically (1 scum in the "Q3 five", shadow, osi, and Brin make 4; and so there is *at least* one in those 4; probably two since I doubt my reads are ever 100% right), there has to be scum there.
@Mind: You specifically think I'm scum with Osie? I assumed your post earlier about not having either of us on a quest was because you thought of us as a dichotomy of sorts, but you actually think we are buddies?
@Mind: You specifically think I'm scum with Osie? I assumed your post earlier about not having either of us on a quest was because you thought of us as a dichotomy of sorts, but you actually think we are buddies?
Oh I wasn't condemning you both into exile. But you're not the 6th member unless we're going to do something with the entire Q1 group and expecting a single fail.
I'm just saying that my outlook is this:
Q3 - Silver/Rhand/Me/Proph/Vaimes
Potential 6th - DV/Cantrip/AG/Terry
Definitely not comfortable with as a 6th: Osi, Shadow, Brin
Even if I assume every single one of those people I'm not comfortable with is scum, and there was 1 scum on Q3, that still leaves one scum in that Potential pile. And I do believe I said, that if I'm trusting the wrong people or my reads aren't 100%, there are potentially more scum in that potential group of mine. But that's my argument for not adding more than is needed. I'd like to think we can pull one town out of that pile, but grabbing two? or even three? That's probably just not going to work out for us.
I kinda wish this wasn't lylo. I would love more information, but we just don't have it. If I play this again, Q2 can't be Q1+1, that was a mistake.
Mmmm. I don't think making Q2 be Q1+1 was a mistake, but we didn't really make anyone justify votes or anything. And I think we passed quests through too quickly. We'd have a lot more info if we had voted down more.
I'm still planning on digging through the votes but with only 4 counts I don't know how helpful it will be, exactly.
I'd like to point out the mindset here. Osie is okay with "testing" this group. We are past the stages of testing a group. The scum in this game have far more quest groupings that will produce a win for them, so this excessive openness to testing a grouping should raise some red flags to people. I get that several people believe I'm scum, but I emplore you to at least consider what I have to say.
That would only make sense if I was quick to leap on such a quest, but I clearly considered it over time, then made a decision later on. You also are quibbling about my wording. I think you're scared because D_V, Silver, and I are too close to the money on the scum team. Not answering my questions is perfect for you. You think you're less likely to slip. You and Terry are scrambling to throw dirt on me and discredit D_V and others. Mindreaver and Cantrip are town and haven't figured you out yet. I hope we don't lose before they do.
umm, the whole point of this exercise is for scumspects to explain their stance
Okay. I've mentioned already that this is a quest of entirely townreads for me. If it turns out to be wrong, then I'll reevaluate. But I'm certain that even if one of the reads is wrong, two of them being wrong is unlikely.
Which works if you and I are the two non-questing town, we just have to get everyone else on the quest. Another option is town replacing themselves with the player that proposed the successful Q4 (and is therefore likely to be town).
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
I did the vote analysis. Then I started coloring it and realized what I was doing so you don't get to see it. Here are my conclusions, though.
Pretty much the same group of people is pushing quests through, so I doubt we're all town. Specifically: myself, D_V, Proph, Rhand, Mindreaver, and shadow are the primary "yes" voters. But then, one of Proph/Rhand/Mindreaver and another of D_V/shadow is 100% scum anyway, so I guess exactly two scum are forcing quests through and the others are voting off? Three scum in [Terry/Osi/Cantrip/AG/Brinatoo] leaves me with... leaves me with exactly what I thought before and no way to figure out if I'm wrong. Damn. Well, at least my groupings are correct?
Well, there's one other thing too. Cantrip, Mindreaver, D_V, and Terry didn't want [Silver/D_V/Vaimes/Cantrip] on Q2 but allowed [Silver/D_V/Vaimes/shadow]. Terry in particular voted no against the first but proposed the second, and Cantrip voted against a quest containing himself then let a nearly identical quest pass. Which. I get that we wanted Q1+1, and it's not a smoking gun by any means, but it is... suspicious, anyway. Also, this is why I said we should stop making consensus/compromise teams. Nominate whoever you think is most likely to pass. Period. (Next time. If there is a next time.)
@Cantrip: Why vote no on a quest and then allow the same team to go without you? I understand you wanted Q1+1 but... having 2 from Q1 and yourself as confirmed town with one unknown should have been just as good if not better, from your point of view.
Terry's play is also really interesting but I have a pretty good idea how that conversation is going to go and I don't really have the emotional energy to hash it out. Sorry. Someone else feel free to go there.
@Iso - I know it hasn't been the full 2 or 3 days since his last post, but can you prod Brinatoo and just let him know we're waiting on his vote to proceed?
I did the vote analysis. Then I started coloring it and realized what I was doing so you don't get to see it. Here are my conclusions, though.
Pretty much the same group of people is pushing quests through, so I doubt we're all town. Specifically: myself, D_V, Proph, Rhand, Mindreaver, and shadow are the primary "yes" voters. But then, one of Proph/Rhand/Mindreaver and another of D_V/shadow is 100% scum anyway, so I guess exactly two scum are forcing quests through and the others are voting off? Three scum in [Terry/Osi/Cantrip/AG/Brinatoo] leaves me with... leaves me with exactly what I thought before and no way to figure out if I'm wrong. Damn. Well, at least my groupings are correct?
Well, there's one other thing too. Cantrip, Mindreaver, D_V, and Terry didn't want [Silver/D_V/Vaimes/Cantrip] on Q2 but allowed [Silver/D_V/Vaimes/shadow]. Terry in particular voted no against the first but proposed the second, and Cantrip voted against a quest containing himself then let a nearly identical quest pass. Which. I get that we wanted Q1+1, and it's not a smoking gun by any means, but it is... suspicious, anyway. Also, this is why I said we should stop making consensus/compromise teams. Nominate whoever you think is most likely to pass. Period. (Next time. If there is a next time.)
@Cantrip: Why vote no on a quest and then allow the same team to go without you? I understand you wanted Q1+1 but... having 2 from Q1 and yourself as confirmed town with one unknown should have been just as good if not better, from your point of view.
Terry's play is also really interesting but I have a pretty good idea how that conversation is going to go and I don't really have the emotional energy to hash it out. Sorry. Someone else feel free to go there.
God, I really want to comment on this, but in the long run I want to see want the next few scumspects say about the quest first.
Well, there's one other thing too. Cantrip, Mindreaver, D_V, and Terry didn't want [Silver/D_V/Vaimes/Cantrip] on Q2 but allowed [Silver/D_V/Vaimes/shadow]. Terry in particular voted no against the first but proposed the second, and Cantrip voted against a quest containing himself then let a nearly identical quest pass. Which. I get that we wanted Q1+1, and it's not a smoking gun by any means, but it is... suspicious, anyway. Also, this is why I said we should stop making consensus/compromise teams. Nominate whoever you think is most likely to pass. Period. (Next time. If there is a next time.)
@Cantrip: Why vote no on a quest and then allow the same team to go without you? I understand you wanted Q1+1 but... having 2 from Q1 and yourself as confirmed town with one unknown should have been just as good if not better, from your point of view.
I broke down my logic for Q1+1 vs Half-Q1+2 in 473. Just because *I* know I'm town doesn't help everyone else figure out the gamestate if there's a single fail. Plus Joe's initial suggestion for a proposal was horrible, and then he surprised me by actually proposing a group with DV. And it was a Q1+1 group where I felt the +1 was town.
It's going to be frustrating if the potential benefit to a voting order gets blurred because of a deadline.
So...discussing the proposal is just as circumventive as voting out of order, isn't it? :/
@Osie: Between Rhand and Mindreaver, Rhand's townier because while Mind has been making logical posts, Rhand has been more active in trying to figure out the game, at least during this phase and last phase. I also get a strong town read on Rhand overall, while several of Mindreaver's posts have given me pause (953 being a good example). I feel like my struggle is more between Mind and Proph.
Rhand has been more active lately? Really? I'm not so certain on that. And I had a strong town read on Rhand, but that faded a bit in the last third of the game... Not to mention that being scum somewhat incentivizes responding to less and answering less. (At least productively.) Scum is the team with more information. That said, some percentage of scum must combat this tendency at all times, or they screw themselves over by making the distinction obvious.
Proph has been very townie in the time that he's been active. I would honestly say more so than either Rhand or Mindreaver, but Mindreaver has been more involved than Proph.
@Mindreaver: Are you only suspicious of Rhand because his play seems town? If not, what concerns you?
I feel like that was a loaded question. "because his play seems town". Just the phrasing there... yuck.
Hmm, maybe I misread your 953? I thought when you said that the clear play for scum was to out-town each other, and then highlighted suspicion of Rhand, you were intimating that Rhand's play has been excessively townie.
Quote from Mind »
So why I'm leaning Rhand for the fail is that I was very leery of his seemingly inexplicable read on you, early on.
Next he proposes a group with you on it. Which gets voted down.
We then get to your proposal, and who do you nominate? Your buddy Rhand.
How is this different from two town players townreading each other? I mean, really.
Quote from Mind »
Now, the play for the scum in Mind/Rhand/Proph; isn't to necessarily cast suspicion on the other two. You just have to not be the least towny. Now, if that was the goal, it would explain why proph was in this lineup to begin with. My tinfoil theory, is that you put Rhand in there, with a somewhat unknown proph, and a townread mindreaver. Worst case? We figure out it's Rhand and you. Best case? You both figure out how to make me the scum. Plan B? You can't get the Mindreaver is scum narrative, and you fall back to the "maybe it is proph...". You've managed to discredit me, and probably just due to most people not having a great read on proph, the thread probably doesn't catch on. Maybe we see a proposal for "lets just take those three out, and put in Cantrip/XXXX/YYYYY".
Ok, I can see where you're coming from with this, but, fwiw, I know that's not the case, so your tinfoil crumples from my perspective.
Quote from Mind »
Your first post following the fail backs that up. "I thought for SURE that would pass. Frown I'm thinking Proph or Mindreaver for the fail." Why? Your read on Rhand was so ironclad that he's not even a suspect? Rhand's first post: "I think mindreaver was the scum there. But it can be Proph." Both of you are testing the waters.
Now, I don't know about how much I'm buying your involvement Cantrip. It's far-fetched, and I know that. I just can't shake your interactions with Rhand.
Then we have Rhand's posting BEFORE the quest failed. That if there was 1 failure, it'd be me. Maybe it's OMGUS (it is a little bit), but I think that was just laying the groundwork for his arguments now. Although he hasn't come right out and said "it was mind". He's hedging a bit now. "Mind > Proph" without anything else. He seemed more sure before the fail, and now is trying to sound more diplomatic. He also hasn't mentioned your name once as a possible 6th (he's proposed 4 groups, 2 include you; but he's never suggested you'd be a good 6th). Which pings me a little funny, because you are clearly his choice. He didn't even react when I suggested it. I expected *something* since I've been vocal about Rhand/Cantrip for a while now.
Again, I can see where you're coming from, and it makes me a little leery of Rhand, but, like I said, I feel like he's been actively trying to figure out the game, and not in a way that helps scum. In a game with no flips, that goes a long way in my book. What do you think Rhand not taking your bait says about his alignment? You said in 953 that it was a point in his favor, but you're still highlighting it as "pinging you a little funny".
I broke down my logic for Q1+1 vs Half-Q1+2 in 473. Just because *I* know I'm town doesn't help everyone else figure out the gamestate if there's a single fail. Plus Joe's initial suggestion for a proposal was horrible, and then he surprised me by actually proposing a group with DV. And it was a Q1+1 group where I felt the +1 was town.
Mmmm. I guess so. It just, looks strange I guess. Like I said, not a smoking gun by any means, and I know we wanted Q1+1 but.
It's going to be frustrating if the potential benefit to a voting order gets blurred because of a deadline.
So...discussing the proposal is just as circumventive as voting out of order, isn't it? :/
I'm going to have lots of #words in post game about how I think the set up could be improved. Biting my tongue for now because the rules are the rules and it's not very constructive right now.
And yeah, talking about the proposal is almost as bad as voting out of order.
I'll comment on my own quest proposal. I fake-proposed the original group to try to open up some discussion about some different players. When I proposed the group that actually ended up failing, I did what I thought was best, as well as what the consensus was and proposed Q1+1. I think that was the right play at the time, but wish I didn't cave and put DV on there. Turns out my addition of Vaimes was the right call at least.
RE: Game mechanics, while I'm grateful for this at the moment, I also think it's a design flaw. If we Pass this quest, we win the game, but really only after passing two quests (Since we aren't forced to add another player to the list for next quest, 0-1 fail on this quest equals win because we just repeat next quest). The scum will have to had failed three quests to win. Maybe it's to balance their extra shot at winning with a MErlin (chill out it's not a claim... or is it???? Hahahahahahah drink that wine!) murder at the end.
I'll comment on my own quest proposal. I fake-proposed the original group to try to open up some discussion about some different players. When I proposed the group that actually ended up failing, I did what I thought was best, as well as what the consensus was and proposed Q1+1. I think that was the right play at the time, but wish I didn't cave and put DV on there. Turns out my addition of Vaimes was the right call at least.
RE: Game mechanics, while I'm grateful for this at the moment, I also think it's a design flaw. If we Pass this quest, we win the game, but really only after passing two quests (Since we aren't forced to add another player to the list for next quest, 0-1 fail on this quest equals win because we just repeat next quest). The scum will have to had failed three quests to win. Maybe it's to balance their extra shot at winning with a MErlin (chill out it's not a claim... or is it???? Hahahahahahah drink that wine!) murder at the end.
Q3 is a gimme for scum and Q5 is a gimme for town. The game is mostly decided on which side gets 2/3 on Q1, Q2, and Q4.
@Mindreaver: Are you only suspicious of Rhand because his play seems town? If not, what concerns you?
I feel like that was a loaded question. "because his play seems town". Just the phrasing there... yuck.
Hmm, maybe I misread your 953? I thought when you said that the clear play for scum was to out-town each other, and then highlighted suspicion of Rhand, you were intimating that Rhand's play has been excessively townie.
You're not wrong, per se. That is *one* point. I just thought that the way you phrased your question was off. The question itself presupposes that I am thinking and acting in a certain way only because he's acting townie. Which would be fairly schizophrenic in mafia. My point really is that when you're coming into that quest, with 3 unknowns, and we get 1 fail, the scum. How would that scum behave afterwards? The way Rhand and I are. I think. Maybe Proph is slow rolling me. Anyway, that was one point in my entire case, it isn't the whole case, and most of it really is PoE. I know it wasn't me, I don't think it was silver, I believe Vaimes, and Proph's had two posts afterward that seemed genuinely townie. I just see Rhand as trying to show just how townie he his (and you can make a case for me too). But proposing the vote order immediately following the vote. Why do that now? Because he just thought of it? Or because the game says "oh, great idea, what a town mindset that it; couldn't be Rhand"
So why I'm leaning Rhand for the fail is that I was very leery of his seemingly inexplicable read on you, early on.
Next he proposes a group with you on it. Which gets voted down.
We then get to your proposal, and who do you nominate? Your buddy Rhand.
How is this different from two town players townreading each other? I mean, really.
Exactly. It's the reason why Rhand's "helpful scum hunting townishness" looks suspect to me. Because I KNOW it's him or Proph. You guys don't. I've come down on the Rhand side, and taking that into account, you're either his buddy or you've been pocketed.
Now, the play for the scum in Mind/Rhand/Proph; isn't to necessarily cast suspicion on the other two. You just have to not be the least towny. Now, if that was the goal, it would explain why proph was in this lineup to begin with. My tinfoil theory, is that you put Rhand in there, with a somewhat unknown proph, and a townread mindreaver. Worst case? We figure out it's Rhand and you. Best case? You both figure out how to make me the scum. Plan B? You can't get the Mindreaver is scum narrative, and you fall back to the "maybe it is proph...". You've managed to discredit me, and probably just due to most people not having a great read on proph, the thread probably doesn't catch on. Maybe we see a proposal for "lets just take those three out, and put in Cantrip/XXXX/YYYYY".
Ok, I can see where you're coming from with this, but, fwiw, I know that's not the case, so your tinfoil crumples from my perspective.
Which I can understand. You say you know, I say I know, and neither of us can prove it.
Your first post following the fail backs that up. "I thought for SURE that would pass. Frown I'm thinking Proph or Mindreaver for the fail." Why? Your read on Rhand was so ironclad that he's not even a suspect? Rhand's first post: "I think mindreaver was the scum there. But it can be Proph." Both of you are testing the waters.
Now, I don't know about how much I'm buying your involvement Cantrip. It's far-fetched, and I know that. I just can't shake your interactions with Rhand.
Then we have Rhand's posting BEFORE the quest failed. That if there was 1 failure, it'd be me. Maybe it's OMGUS (it is a little bit), but I think that was just laying the groundwork for his arguments now. Although he hasn't come right out and said "it was mind". He's hedging a bit now. "Mind > Proph" without anything else. He seemed more sure before the fail, and now is trying to sound more diplomatic. He also hasn't mentioned your name once as a possible 6th (he's proposed 4 groups, 2 include you; but he's never suggested you'd be a good 6th). Which pings me a little funny, because you are clearly his choice. He didn't even react when I suggested it. I expected *something* since I've been vocal about Rhand/Cantrip for a while now.
Again, I can see where you're coming from, and it makes me a little leery of Rhand, but, like I said, I feel like he's been actively trying to figure out the game, and not in a way that helps scum. In a game with no flips, that goes a long way in my book. What do you think Rhand not taking your bait says about his alignment? You said in 953 that it was a point in his favor, but you're still highlighting it as "pinging you a little funny".
I think he's been very coy about adding you. When you've been a very high townread for a long time. D_V can't self nominate. Tell me why on EARTH you think Rhand shouldn't have been saying "add Cantrip" for the last 3 pages. His other choices? Shadow/AG/Terry/Osi/Brinatoo. Why would he pick any of those? It's not in his professed world-view. Right this second, you're town in his mind. Confirmed practically from page 1. How are you not his number 1 choice?
Let me throw another example out there. I've been clearing Silver since about the same time (VERY early on). If Silver was available as the 6th member on this proposal, and I didn't say "we should be adding Silver", would that give you pause? If I instead said "I'm confortable with these four groups: ..." but Silver wasn't on ALL of them, how would you view that?
@Mindreaver: Are you only suspicious of Rhand because his play seems town? If not, what concerns you?
I feel like that was a loaded question. "because his play seems town". Just the phrasing there... yuck.
Hmm, maybe I misread your 953? I thought when you said that the clear play for scum was to out-town each other, and then highlighted suspicion of Rhand, you were intimating that Rhand's play has been excessively townie.
You're not wrong, per se. That is *one* point. I just thought that the way you phrased your question was off. The question itself presupposes that I am thinking and acting in a certain way only because he's acting townie. Which would be fairly schizophrenic in mafia.
Sorry. I probably phrased it that way because it stood out to me (I actually remembered you being more explicit than you actually were). Your other points (at that time) seem to be that he and I are making you paranoid (more of a feeling on your part than a point), and that Rhand was on a failed quest.
Quote from Mind »
My point really is that when you're coming into that quest, with 3 unknowns, and we get 1 fail, the scum. How would that scum behave afterwards? The way Rhand and I are. I think. Maybe Proph is slow rolling me. Anyway, that was one point in my entire case, it isn't the whole case, and most of it really is PoE. I know it wasn't me, I don't think it was silver, I believe Vaimes, and Proph's had two posts afterward that seemed genuinely townie. I just see Rhand as trying to show just how townie he his (and you can make a case for me too). But proposing the vote order immediately following the vote. Why do that now? Because he just thought of it? Or because the game says "oh, great idea, what a town mindset that it; couldn't be Rhand"
I guess I'm having a hard time seeing how you decipher "acting town" from "being town". You yourself lamented not thinking sooner of that particular "townie idea", so why is Rhand proposing it "acting town" rather than "being town"?
How is this different from two town players townreading each other? I mean, really.
Exactly. It's the reason why Rhand's "helpful scum hunting townishness" looks suspect to me. Because I KNOW it's him or Proph. You guys don't. I've come down on the Rhand side, and taking that into account, you're either his buddy or you've been pocketed.
...but you DON'T "know" it's him or Proph. At the very least, it's him or Proph OR Silver. I agree that Silver's been playing very townish, but it feels like an odd mindset to go "Out of this subgroup of players, Silver's acted the most town, so he's town, but Rhand's acted the second most town, so he's scum." Maybe that's not what you're saying, but it's what it sounds like. Also, if you're suspecting that pocketing is going on, how would Rhand be pocketing me when I was the one who initiated the exchange in RVS?
Quote from Mind »
I think he's been very coy about adding you. When you've been a very high townread for a long time. D_V can't self nominate. Tell me why on EARTH you think Rhand shouldn't have been saying "add Cantrip" for the last 3 pages. His other choices? Shadow/AG/Terry/Osi/Brinatoo. Why would he pick any of those? It's not in his professed world-view. Right this second, you're town in his mind. Confirmed practically from page 1. How are you not his number 1 choice?
He's been less certain of me ever since he decided me and AG were a dichotomy in 647 based on Osie's post. I don't agree with his conclusion, but I mostly understand how he got there and why he's persisting in that thought pattern. Then he decided Shadow was scum, which put the other half of that dichotomy (DV) as town, so he's been suggesting DV more than me. Also, he was suggesting me in 883.
Quote from Mind »
Let me throw another example out there. I've been clearing Silver since about the same time (VERY early on). If Silver was available as the 6th member on this proposal, and I didn't say "we should be adding Silver", would that give you pause? If I instead said "I'm confortable with these four groups: ..." but Silver wasn't on ALL of them, how would you view that?
Barring any rationale from you for your choices, I'd see it as suspicious, but I don't see a mindset disconnect from Rhand given his suspicions on Osie and subsequent suspicions on me.
First off, you are my lightest scum read. It's hard to tell between you, Rhand, and Proph who the final scum is, but I had been leaning you as of just before Q3. As of late, though, this is somewhat up in the air.
I started to feel something was off when I did the full thread check on page 10. But I wasn't certain. I was tonereading some scumminess in a lot of your posts since then, but also a lot of town vibes. But I figured that might be some degree of confirmation bias at some point, and have therefore kept you at a relatively light scumread, mostly based off of position. As of this moment, you, Proph, and Rhand are my uncertain reads. I was inclined to be more sure just before and just after Q3. My problem is that you and Rhand both have that mix of towny and scummy posts, and Proph has given me decent vibes in the time he's been here, but has been here for a very short amount of time. So that's that on the toneread side of things.
Then there's looking at other people's reads. My 4 hard scum reads have you as town, along with one hard townread and Proph. Other players who have said anything about you also have you as uncertain. That's not a good sign for me.
Let's say I decide to go with you being town. Assuming you agree with me that D_V and I are town and Shadow is scum, who would you say is more likely scum out of Proph and Rhand and why?
So to answer your question. I'm not sure how to actually resolve the situation. It was a problem before the proposal passed, because I had Rhand (you too) predicting a one vote fail, and that I'd be the culprit. You specifically went after 1 fail as the scenario, and Rhand was a bit more "oh and if there are two then...". That raised some red flags on him.
I've also been paranoid about Rhand and Cantrip. I was hoping that when I proposed Cantrip (several times btw) in the last two pages, Rhand would slip. But he hasn't jumped really. So that's a point in his favor I guess.
Finally I already spelled this out but the clear play here, for scum, is to just out-town the other two suspects. I am suspicious of Rhand at this point. I suppose you could also say the same about me. But I'm trying to read Rhand from earlier and get compare it to the last few posts, and figure out if he's tonally different now, when death is on the line.
It's coming down to the following for me:
1) I probably won't catch Proph OR Rhand if it's only one of them. I don't think we have the tools to do so, without outing Merlin in the process. But without Proph even posting yet, I'm leaning Rhand as scum right now.
2) If I can't root out the scum on that quest, do I need to? This is the biggest thing for me right now. Is it just Rhand or just Proph? If it's both, I don't think I have enough trusted bodies to fill that hole. If it's only one. Leaving Q3 intact seems like the strongest play. I'm nervous about Terry and Cantrip. Who seem to have some support all of a sudden. D_V would be my choice, but I'm just not sure and passing and where that leaves us for the final quest. Osi and Shadow are out for me. AG and Brin are largely question marks. Gun to my head, Terry might be the play right now. I was scum reading him because his D_V progression hasn't been exactly smooth. But see how D_V's behaved this game, I don't really disagree with just looking at the surface level and saying "wtf, clearly scum here".
Fair enough, I see what you mean. I'm just nervous about him because whenever I read his posts I feel like he's been overtly reasonable and logical with regards to his thought process, but then I remember that that's the easy part for scum to fake, so.
I came to a townread on him early in Three Little Pigs Mafia based off of his tonally town posts in that game and while I've seen them in this game, he /was/ on the team that failed, and the only other person that can be scum on that team is Rhand IMO since I know I'm town. So I think I need to do a little more digging here.
I keep saying I want to do more digging or analysis but I just get so lazy lol or get distracted with schoolwork. Why did I replace into this game.
But at the same time this sentence feels townie for Mindreaver?? Auggh. I know I'm getting pocketed here someplace, I just can't figure it out.
Probbbably the third one? (Cantrip/Proph/DV) I think Cantrip's posts have been solid and I think D_V has a lot of decent town tells despite the CC.
Bonus question: What does answering this question tell you about my alignment?
I would support adding Q3 + Osi or Q3 + Cantrip barring reread (which will probably never happen because I'm lazy + drowning in schoolwork). I would not support Q3 + Terry though.
Either Mindreaver or Rhand. Both have been coming across as fairly townie to me though, so ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
By the way, I am approaching this game without paying much, if any, attention to people's previous games. I think the only way that it is relevant is the number of times that someone has played, and that's not even particularly relevant except for giving an unreliable sign on how much one might be able to read into someone's posts. Besides, if people are actually primarily reliant on that, then any reads on me are basically meaningless.
@D_V: I think Proph is town, but I'm cool with testing your grouping without Rhand instead of one without Mindreaver.
Proph, Mindreaver, Silver, Vaimes, Cantrip, Osieorb18
@DV: What's your stance on Silver? Town or scum?
Rhand's 879 is spectacular. If he's scum, he's really, really, really good.
I don't like Shadow's 892. It feels a little like fearmongering ("we have to make TWO good quests, guise!"). In reality, it's win or lose with this proposal. If two or more scum go, they win. If not, we just send the quest twice (assuming that the scumteam isn't all lumped together as the five players following the passing quest).
...as Mindreaver pointed out in 893.
Trying to figure out if 953 is Mindreaver being crafty like a town!Fox or sneaky like a scum!Snake.
@Mindreaver: Are you only suspicious of Rhand because his play seems town? If not, what concerns you?
@Proph: Say you could kill one player and their alignment would be revealed to just you, who would you choose, and what do you think their alignment would tell you?
@Osie: Between Rhand and Mindreaver, Rhand's townier because while Mind has been making logical posts, Rhand has been more active in trying to figure out the game, at least during this phase and last phase. I also get a strong town read on Rhand overall, while several of Mindreaver's posts have given me pause (953 being a good example). I feel like my struggle is more between Mind and Proph.
On to solving.
I'm thinking that one fail = one scum on the quest. If that's the case, I'm cautiously for sending the same group + one of me or AG. If we remove one of Rhand, Mindreaver, or Proph from the list, I'd suggest both me and AG. I have concerns about most the other options. Osie's been posting really well. The difference between his Q1 and Q3 play is like night and day. As much as I want to trust it, I don't think I can. Terry also has calmed down a little, but I can't shake the feeling that he's too focused on discrediting DV to be town. He also feels really anxious toDay. Brin hasn't provided content; I don't really want to gamble the game on 14 posts. AG, on the other hand, sounds sincere. He's not posting quite as much as I'd like, but he's asking questions and of all the players that I have lighter reads on, I feel like he's trying to solve the game.
From Rhand's 879:
I'm fine with this, and agree that we should follow this order for the first four "yes" votes, then flip it to ensure no speed-hammers. If I had my druthers, I'd probably move AG down a little, and swap myself and Rhand, but this should still be fine.
I'd be very surprised if Silver is scum.
Is Mindreaver just town here?
I feel like that was a loaded question. "because his play seems town". Just the phrasing there... yuck.
So why I'm leaning Rhand for the fail is that I was very leery of his seemingly inexplicable read on you, early on.
Next he proposes a group with you on it. Which gets voted down.
We then get to your proposal, and who do you nominate? Your buddy Rhand.
Now, the play for the scum in Mind/Rhand/Proph; isn't to necessarily cast suspicion on the other two. You just have to not be the least towny. Now, if that was the goal, it would explain why proph was in this lineup to begin with. My tinfoil theory, is that you put Rhand in there, with a somewhat unknown proph, and a townread mindreaver. Worst case? We figure out it's Rhand and you. Best case? You both figure out how to make me the scum. Plan B? You can't get the Mindreaver is scum narrative, and you fall back to the "maybe it is proph...". You've managed to discredit me, and probably just due to most people not having a great read on proph, the thread probably doesn't catch on. Maybe we see a proposal for "lets just take those three out, and put in Cantrip/XXXX/YYYYY".
Your first post following the fail backs that up. "I thought for SURE that would pass. Frown I'm thinking Proph or Mindreaver for the fail." Why? Your read on Rhand was so ironclad that he's not even a suspect? Rhand's first post: "I think mindreaver was the scum there. But it can be Proph." Both of you are testing the waters.
Now, I don't know about how much I'm buying your involvement Cantrip. It's far-fetched, and I know that. I just can't shake your interactions with Rhand.
Then we have Rhand's posting BEFORE the quest failed. That if there was 1 failure, it'd be me. Maybe it's OMGUS (it is a little bit), but I think that was just laying the groundwork for his arguments now. Although he hasn't come right out and said "it was mind". He's hedging a bit now. "Mind > Proph" without anything else. He seemed more sure before the fail, and now is trying to sound more diplomatic. He also hasn't mentioned your name once as a possible 6th (he's proposed 4 groups, 2 include you; but he's never suggested you'd be a good 6th). Which pings me a little funny, because you are clearly his choice. He didn't even react when I suggested it. I expected *something* since I've been vocal about Rhand/Cantrip for a while now.
BUT, at the end of the day. This might be a distraction. I'm convinced that Proph and Rhand aren't scum together. I just don't think so. And if that's the case, none of this tinfoiling really matters. We're going to have to take a gut-read YOLO shot, and I don't have the chutzpah to actually just pluck Rhand, stick in two new people, and lose. Because my pool of people is D_V/Cantrip/AG/Terry, and mathematically (1 scum in the "Q3 five", shadow, osi, and Brin make 4; and so there is *at least* one in those 4; probably two since I doubt my reads are ever 100% right), there has to be scum there.
Was waiting on proph but now I feel good about this group.
.
Propose: Proph, Mindreaver, Silver, Vaimes, Cantrip, Osieorb18
I'm just saying that my outlook is this:
Q3 - Silver/Rhand/Me/Proph/Vaimes
Potential 6th - DV/Cantrip/AG/Terry
Definitely not comfortable with as a 6th: Osi, Shadow, Brin
Even if I assume every single one of those people I'm not comfortable with is scum, and there was 1 scum on Q3, that still leaves one scum in that Potential pile. And I do believe I said, that if I'm trusting the wrong people or my reads aren't 100%, there are potentially more scum in that potential group of mine. But that's my argument for not adding more than is needed. I'd like to think we can pull one town out of that pile, but grabbing two? or even three? That's probably just not going to work out for us.
I kinda wish this wasn't lylo. I would love more information, but we just don't have it. If I play this again, Q2 can't be Q1+1, that was a mistake.
I'm still planning on digging through the votes but with only 4 counts I don't know how helpful it will be, exactly.
That would only make sense if I was quick to leap on such a quest, but I clearly considered it over time, then made a decision later on. You also are quibbling about my wording. I think you're scared because D_V, Silver, and I are too close to the money on the scum team. Not answering my questions is perfect for you. You think you're less likely to slip. You and Terry are scrambling to throw dirt on me and discredit D_V and others. Mindreaver and Cantrip are town and haven't figured you out yet. I hope we don't lose before they do.
Scum team:
Rhand/Shadow/AG/Brinatoo/Terry
Okay. I've mentioned already that this is a quest of entirely townreads for me. If it turns out to be wrong, then I'll reevaluate. But I'm certain that even if one of the reads is wrong, two of them being wrong is unlikely.
If this quest is wrong we LOSE.
No, no, I mean if there's 1 fail vote.
I'm pretty certain there's no fail votes on this current quest.
Only 2 of 12 players are capable of sending an identical town-favored lineup (the two town not on the quest).
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
Pretty much the same group of people is pushing quests through, so I doubt we're all town. Specifically: myself, D_V, Proph, Rhand, Mindreaver, and shadow are the primary "yes" voters. But then, one of Proph/Rhand/Mindreaver and another of D_V/shadow is 100% scum anyway, so I guess exactly two scum are forcing quests through and the others are voting off? Three scum in [Terry/Osi/Cantrip/AG/Brinatoo] leaves me with... leaves me with exactly what I thought before and no way to figure out if I'm wrong. Damn. Well, at least my groupings are correct?
Well, there's one other thing too. Cantrip, Mindreaver, D_V, and Terry didn't want [Silver/D_V/Vaimes/Cantrip] on Q2 but allowed [Silver/D_V/Vaimes/shadow]. Terry in particular voted no against the first but proposed the second, and Cantrip voted against a quest containing himself then let a nearly identical quest pass. Which. I get that we wanted Q1+1, and it's not a smoking gun by any means, but it is... suspicious, anyway. Also, this is why I said we should stop making consensus/compromise teams. Nominate whoever you think is most likely to pass. Period. (Next time. If there is a next time.)
@Cantrip: Why vote no on a quest and then allow the same team to go without you? I understand you wanted Q1+1 but... having 2 from Q1 and yourself as confirmed town with one unknown should have been just as good if not better, from your point of view.
Terry's play is also really interesting but I have a pretty good idea how that conversation is going to go and I don't really have the emotional energy to hash it out. Sorry. Someone else feel free to go there.
It's going to be frustrating if the potential benefit to a voting order gets blurred because of a deadline.
So...discussing the proposal is just as circumventive as voting out of order, isn't it? :/
Both Rhand and Mindreaver have played a fantastic game no matter which side they are on. There's been some great posts from either side this game.
Rhand has been more active lately? Really? I'm not so certain on that. And I had a strong town read on Rhand, but that faded a bit in the last third of the game... Not to mention that being scum somewhat incentivizes responding to less and answering less. (At least productively.) Scum is the team with more information. That said, some percentage of scum must combat this tendency at all times, or they screw themselves over by making the distinction obvious.
Proph has been very townie in the time that he's been active. I would honestly say more so than either Rhand or Mindreaver, but Mindreaver has been more involved than Proph.
Hmm, maybe I misread your 953? I thought when you said that the clear play for scum was to out-town each other, and then highlighted suspicion of Rhand, you were intimating that Rhand's play has been excessively townie.
How is this different from two town players townreading each other? I mean, really.
Ok, I can see where you're coming from with this, but, fwiw, I know that's not the case, so your tinfoil crumples from my perspective.
Again, I can see where you're coming from, and it makes me a little leery of Rhand, but, like I said, I feel like he's been actively trying to figure out the game, and not in a way that helps scum. In a game with no flips, that goes a long way in my book. What do you think Rhand not taking your bait says about his alignment? You said in 953 that it was a point in his favor, but you're still highlighting it as "pinging you a little funny".
I'm going to have lots of #words in post game about how I think the set up could be improved. Biting my tongue for now because the rules are the rules and it's not very constructive right now.
And yeah, talking about the proposal is almost as bad as voting out of order.
RE: Game mechanics, while I'm grateful for this at the moment, I also think it's a design flaw. If we Pass this quest, we win the game, but really only after passing two quests (Since we aren't forced to add another player to the list for next quest, 0-1 fail on this quest equals win because we just repeat next quest). The scum will have to had failed three quests to win. Maybe it's to balance their extra shot at winning with a MErlin (chill out it's not a claim... or is it???? Hahahahahahah drink that wine!) murder at the end.
Q3 is a gimme for scum and Q5 is a gimme for town. The game is mostly decided on which side gets 2/3 on Q1, Q2, and Q4.
Exactly. It's the reason why Rhand's "helpful scum hunting townishness" looks suspect to me. Because I KNOW it's him or Proph. You guys don't. I've come down on the Rhand side, and taking that into account, you're either his buddy or you've been pocketed.
Which I can understand. You say you know, I say I know, and neither of us can prove it.
I think he's been very coy about adding you. When you've been a very high townread for a long time. D_V can't self nominate. Tell me why on EARTH you think Rhand shouldn't have been saying "add Cantrip" for the last 3 pages. His other choices? Shadow/AG/Terry/Osi/Brinatoo. Why would he pick any of those? It's not in his professed world-view. Right this second, you're town in his mind. Confirmed practically from page 1. How are you not his number 1 choice?
Let me throw another example out there. I've been clearing Silver since about the same time (VERY early on). If Silver was available as the 6th member on this proposal, and I didn't say "we should be adding Silver", would that give you pause? If I instead said "I'm confortable with these four groups: ..." but Silver wasn't on ALL of them, how would you view that?
Sorry. I probably phrased it that way because it stood out to me (I actually remembered you being more explicit than you actually were). Your other points (at that time) seem to be that he and I are making you paranoid (more of a feeling on your part than a point), and that Rhand was on a failed quest.
I guess I'm having a hard time seeing how you decipher "acting town" from "being town". You yourself lamented not thinking sooner of that particular "townie idea", so why is Rhand proposing it "acting town" rather than "being town"?
...but you DON'T "know" it's him or Proph. At the very least, it's him or Proph OR Silver. I agree that Silver's been playing very townish, but it feels like an odd mindset to go "Out of this subgroup of players, Silver's acted the most town, so he's town, but Rhand's acted the second most town, so he's scum." Maybe that's not what you're saying, but it's what it sounds like. Also, if you're suspecting that pocketing is going on, how would Rhand be pocketing me when I was the one who initiated the exchange in RVS?
He's been less certain of me ever since he decided me and AG were a dichotomy in 647 based on Osie's post. I don't agree with his conclusion, but I mostly understand how he got there and why he's persisting in that thought pattern. Then he decided Shadow was scum, which put the other half of that dichotomy (DV) as town, so he's been suggesting DV more than me. Also, he was suggesting me in 883.
Barring any rationale from you for your choices, I'd see it as suspicious, but I don't see a mindset disconnect from Rhand given his suspicions on Osie and subsequent suspicions on me.
Talk with me about Osi? Did we trade one scum for another?